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WarRI1
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US Income Through The Years.

Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:12 am

http://t.money.msn.com/now/us-incomes-through-the-years#image=1


This is very interesting. US income down through the years. You can compare the money earned then and in 2013 dollars. As you go, you will see what influenced earnings. You can see the era of union influence, women coming into the workforce. The ups and downs of earnings. The Bill Clinton era of wages. The growing disparity of earnings. The growing gap between rich and poor. I vote for the Bill Clinton era as the best for wages. I made a ton of money then, lately not so much. We all know why, do we not?   
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:14 am

I cannot reach your link, saying I need an MSN account. Do you have a different link / different way of posting the info?
 
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WarRI1
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:17 am

I got that off the MSN money page. I will try to find another link. Has anyone else the same problem?
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:23 am

I had to switch from Safari to Firefox for the slideshow to work.
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romeobravo
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:52 pm

The wealth trickles down, provided you have sound money. When you print money and give it to the asset owners and rich first, the wealth trickles up.



(Removal of gold standard 1971)
 
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:20 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
I vote for the Bill Clinton era as the best for wages. I made a ton of money then, lately not so much. We all know why, do we not?

I totally agree WarRI1. But probably for different reasons.

The first step we would need to take getting back to Bill Clinton is slash government spending by about 50%. Just lay off millions of government workers and also eliminate millions of racketeers from SS disability payments. Slash healthcare and cut the Pentagon in half.

Bill Clinton years looked like that. And everybody seemed quite happy.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:13 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
Bill Clinton years looked like that. And everybody seemed quite happy.

As I remember it, we were a hell of a lot more happy than we are now. You are correct as far as I am concerned. Money flowed all around the economy, not just up.
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WarRI1
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:17 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 4):
The wealth trickles down, provided you have sound money. When you print money and give it to the asset owners and rich first, the wealth trickles up.

That is the way it works now for sure. In the US Wall Street is rigged for the wealthy, taxes are rigged for the wealthy. The flow of wealth is defying gravity. Money flows up, shit flows down. Gravity works for shit. Funny how that works.
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:49 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):
That is the way it works now for sure. In the US Wall Street is rigged for the wealthy, taxes are rigged for the wealthy. The flow of wealth is defying gravity. Money flows up, shit flows down. Gravity works for shit. Funny how that works.

It's nothing to do with taxes though i know you are trying to politicize this issue to suit your agenda. As you can see, even during the Clinton years, which sat on a technology boom, the wealth was trickling up.
 
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:26 pm

Indeed, we do not have a taxation problem (except, perhaps, a tax code which is more complex than it should be); we have a spending problem, a governmental complex which simply spends vastly more than it has in available revenue. It is inexorably debasing the currency.
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BMI727
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:57 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 6):
Money flowed all around the economy, not just up.

Guess you missed all the millionaires who were minted in the tech boom. Of course they all hired people too...

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 7):
taxes are rigged for the wealthy.

   You've got to be shitting me. A considerable portion of this country pays no income tax, or gets money back from the government, and it isn't the millionaires. People who didn't bother to stay in school and do what they're supposed to do don't have to pay, but I get to see nearly 30% of my income evaporate into government budgets. The system isn't rigged for the wealthy, let alone for me.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 9):
Indeed, we do not have a taxation problem (except, perhaps, a tax code which is more complex than it should be); we have a spending problem,

If you want to close the deficit for one year you'd have to levy something like a 70% tax on all the wealth held by the 1%.
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WarRI1
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:49 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 8):
It's nothing to do with taxes though i know you are trying to politicize this issue to suit your agenda. As you can see, even during the Clinton years, which sat on a technology boom, the wealth was trickling up.

Everything is political. You say the wealth was trickling up. I agree, now it is a flood. Politicize that. I was wrong, I should have said "Everything is Politics" Thomas Mann.

[Edited 2013-08-01 18:40:03]
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WarRI1
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:54 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
You've got to be shitting me. A considerable portion of this country pays no income tax, or gets money back from the government, and it isn't the millionaires. People who didn't bother to stay in school and do what they're supposed to do don't have to pay, but I get to see nearly 30% of my income evaporate into government budgets. The system isn't rigged for the wealthy, let alone for me.

I know, I know, all is fair and right here. We are a nation of equality in all things. We are a Utopia for the working class, we have fair taxes for all, there are no loopholes for the wealthy and corporations. A small percentage of the US does not own 100 % of manufacturing in the US.   
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WarRI1
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:29 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distribution_of_wealth


I think this article fits well into the thread about wages, which influences wealth. This is about income distribution and wealth in the US.
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Okie
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:37 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
I know, I know, all is fair and right here

If you have a problem with small business owners or corporations just start you own. Only one person stopping you.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 4):
Reply 4

You flag from the UK, So I question exactly what are you charting since it has no identifier as to what it is referring.
UK? China? US? the World?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
We are a nation of equality in all things.

We sure are, that is why we import, brings our wages down and their wages up, sort of like taxing the rich US consumers. Why do you have a problem paying your fair share to others to bring their standard of living up?


Okie
 
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:49 am

Quoting okie (Reply 14):
If you have a problem with small business owners or corporations just start you own. Only one person stopping you.

Where did I say I had a problem with small business owners? Now corporations, that is a different ballgame.

Quoting okie (Reply 14):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12): We are a nation of equality in all things.



We sure are, that is why we import, brings our wages down and their wages up, sort of like taxing the rich US consumers. Why do you have a problem paying your fair share to others to bring their standard of living up?

I do not follow, or understand your statement. I would like to see where I said that I do not want to pay my fair share, of anything. Now paying more taxes to make the already wealthy, more wealthy, now I do have a problem with that.

I ask, if you mean that I do not like the global economy, I certainly do not. I prefer to keep our wealth here, our jobs here. I certainly do not like bringing our wages down, while bringing their wages up in other countries. Our wages go down while our cost of living goes up. I have heard of helping others, but that is ridiculous.

[Edited 2013-08-01 18:54:23]
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BMI727
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:53 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 12):
We are a nation of equality in all things.

Obviously not, otherwise I would not be paying the income tax share of myself plus 2/3 of somebody else. Or me plus 1.4 people if you count the whole population.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 15):
Where did I say I had a problem with small business owners? Now corporations, that is a different ballgame.

So a business can only hire so many people before you start hating them?
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:02 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
Obviously not, otherwise I would not be paying the income tax share of myself plus 2/3 of somebody else. Or me plus 1.4 people if you count the whole population.

Without getting in too deep, explain anything in this country that is fair, and not influenced by wealth and privilege.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
So a business can only hire so many people before you start hating them?

Small business owners did not send our manufacturing and jobs overseas, therefore depressing our wages, our standard of living, and damaging our social fabric by chronic unemployment. Meanwhile those corporations enjoy huge tax loopholes and pay a much lower effective rate of corporate taxes, meanwhile damaging the very government which awarded them, along with the peoples well being. Nice folks.
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:37 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 17):
Meanwhile those corporations enjoy huge tax loopholes and pay a much lower effective rate of corporate taxes,

Give me a few examples to make comment about such loopholes in which to comment otherwise I suspect they are following the law. If you do not like the way the tax codes are written then I would point you to legislative branch that writes the tax code.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 17):
Small business owners did not send our manufacturing and jobs overseas, therefore depressing our wages, our standard of living, and damaging our social fabric by chronic unemployment

Do not worry, congress is working on legalizing illegal immigrants as we speak. According to the CBO's numbers that should lower wages 10% to 20% over the next decade with inflation should make someone on a fixed income spending power less than 50% of what it is today and put an additional 12 or so million in the work force to compete for jobs.

Okie
 
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WarRI1
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:40 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 17):
Without getting in too deep, explain anything in this country that is fair, and not influenced by wealth and privilege.



[quote=okie,reply=18]Give me a few examples to make comment about such loopholes in which to comment otherwise I suspect they are following the law. If you do not like the way the tax codes are written then I would point you to legislative branch that writes the tax code.

The answer is above to that question. Wealth and privilege explains our systems failures. Wealth and privilege writes those loopholes, controls our congress who made what they do legal.

[Edited 2013-08-01 19:43:59]
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:48 am

Quoting okie (Reply 18):
Do not worry, congress is working on legalizing illegal immigrants as we speak. According to the CBO's numbers that should lower wages 10% to 20% over the next decade with inflation should make someone on a fixed income spending power less than 50% of what it is today and put an additional 12 or so million in the work force to compete for jobs.

Corporations, farmers and the US Chamber of Commerce sure love those immigrants.
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BMI727
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:55 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 17):
Without getting in too deep, explain anything in this country that is fair, and not influenced by wealth and privilege.

I'll tell you, it was the damndest thing. I woke up one day and I had a college degree. Didn't take any time and it didn't take any work. It just appeared and all I could think was "Thank Barack, I could have gotten a GED and a drug problem instead!"
 
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 17):
therefore depressing our wages, our standard of living,

So if everyone makes twice as much, because everyone has a good job, but everything costs twice as much, since we all buy American to support everyone's good job, how is anyone's life any better? Wealth isn't really a zero sum game, but with enough crappy economic policies you can get damn close.

Luckily, capitalism always wins. Competition and innovation always wins. The smart guys always win.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 17):
Meanwhile those corporations

Just who do you think is behind the "corporations" (like there is some distinction) that you love to hate? There have to be people in there somewhere, they don't just grow up like weeds. I bet I know who you think it is, and if it is who I think you think it is, you're either wrong or just lying.
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Okie
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:02 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 20):
Corporations, farmers and the US Chamber of Commerce sure love those immigrants

We are a country of immigrants, other than the American Indian and a bit of a skirmish along our border with Mexico in 1836 we are all have a heritage to somewhere else. Why do you have such a problem of bringing other people's standard of living up?

Okie
 
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:13 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
I'll tell you, it was the damndest thing. I woke up one day and I had a college degree. Didn't take any time and it didn't take any work. It just appeared and all I could think was "Thank Barack, I could have gotten a GED and a drug problem instead!"

  
Did not have to work any of those 16 hour days or miss any of those school and athletic events with the children to make it. Those were a figment of my imagination.

Okie
 
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:16 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
I'll tell you, it was the damndest thing. I woke up one day and I had a college degree. Didn't take any time and it didn't take any work. It just appeared and all I could think was "Thank Barack, I could have gotten a GED and a drug problem instead!"

Try, just try to be serious.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
So if everyone makes twice as much, because everyone has a good job, but everything costs twice as much, since we all buy American to support everyone's good job, how is anyone's life any better? Wealth isn't really a zero sum game, but with enough crappy economic policies you can get damn close.

Everyone would have food and clothing, and shelter. A noble accomplishment, never before attained. Hunger, and slums are more preferable to some as long as (they) have wealth and privilege.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
Just who do you think is behind the "corporations" (like there is some distinction) that you love to hate? There have to be people in there somewhere, they don't just grow up like weeds. I bet I know who you think it is, and if it is who I think you think it is, you're either wrong or just lying.

As the USSC decreed, Corporations are people. Gee! Even I know that. Sonny, I was buying stock when most on here were not even around. They were US Corporations, helping to make our economy the powerhouse of the world, which helped us all to prosperity, able to win wars, free millions from tyranny and stay free all these years. Now, not so much, they tend to help themselves to enrich the already enriched. To corrupt our government to a degree never seen before, well maybe in Teddy Roosevelt's day it was that bad. Now they have it down to a science. Rich and poor, a system preferred by many of the wealthy and privileged.
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WarRI1
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:20 am

Quoting okie (Reply 18):
Do not worry, congress is working on legalizing illegal immigrants as we speak. According to the CBO's numbers that should lower wages 10% to 20% over the next decade with inflation should make someone on a fixed income spending power less than 50% of what it is today and put an additional 12 or so million in the work force to compete for jobs.

Your answer here seems to dislike what congress is doing. Anti-immigrant?

Quoting okie (Reply 22):
We are a country of immigrants, other than the American Indian and a bit of a skirmish along our border with Mexico in 1836 we are all have a heritage to somewhere else. Why do you have such a problem of bringing other people's standard of living up?

Now your answer is advocating and extolling immigration. Huh!!!
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WarRI1
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:24 am

Quoting okie (Reply 23):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):I'll tell you, it was the damndest thing. I woke up one day and I had a college degree. Didn't take any time and it didn't take any work. It just appeared and all I could think was "Thank Barack, I could have gotten a GED and a drug problem instead!"


Did not have to work any of those 16 hour days or miss any of those school and athletic events with the children to make it. Those were a figment of my imagination.

Okie

Maybe wealth and privilege made it easy. We know that the children of wealthy Alumni tend to not flunk out.
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Okie
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:31 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 25):

Your answer here seems to dislike what congress is doing. Anti-immigrant

Quite the opposite, the reply was to your statement that corporations were sending jobs over seas destroying the "social fabric" with chronic unemployment. This should bring jobs back.

Okie
 
BMI727
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:39 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 24):
Try, just try to be serious.

I've been told that's actually what happened. I didn't build any of it. Just pure luck. Same thing that put my friend from down the street in the county jail apparently.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 24):
Everyone would have food and clothing, and shelter.

No they wouldn't. Cubans don't. Soviets didn't. North Koreans don't.

The smart folks would bail out and you'd be left with a circle jerk economy.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 24):
Hunger, and slums are more preferable to some as long as (they) have wealth and privilege.

Keeping people well fed and in nice dwellings is not the government's problem, and they shouldn't attempt to do it by forcibly taking others' money.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 24):
Corporations are people.

Someone has to sign the papers and put up the cash.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 24):
Sonny, I was buying stock when most on here were not even around.

So this is your fault.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 24):
They were US Corporations, helping to make our economy the powerhouse of the world, which helped us all to prosperity, able to win wars, free millions from tyranny and stay free all these years.

Being the only country with an economic base that hadn't been blown to bits plus having snatched up most of the smart people from around the world might have had just a little to do with it.

But the issue is that these days, pretty much every country has the basics like people. Mexico has people. China has people. India has people. Japan has people. America has people.

I'd like to know what makes American people (not educated or trained in any special way, just warm bodies who can show up and basic parts together) so star-spangled awesome that we should all reach deep into our pockets and pay them more to do the same job as the Chinese person, or the Indian person, or the Japanese person, or the Mexican person. You talk about privilege, but what legitimate reason do you have for your strong belief in American privilege? Why should you get special treatment for being born American?
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:40 am

Quoting okie (Reply 22):
Why do you have such a problem of bringing other people's standard of living up?

I spent most of my life advocating for a better standard of living. Unionism. We were advocating an improvement in the US standard of living, for our families, our friend's, and our countries well being. I did not go out on strike to improve a standard of living in China while ours went to hell. I really do not think a worker in China, or any other country, really gives a damn about our workers standard of living. Of course I will see the words about, as customers of China's products, they hope we are good customers able to afford to buy. Let us be realistic, really.
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:41 am

Quoting okie (Reply 27):
Quite the opposite, the reply was to your statement that corporations were sending jobs over seas destroying the "social fabric" with chronic unemployment. This should bring jobs back.

I have a bridge to sell, if you believe that.
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:50 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
Being the only country with an economic base that hadn't been blown to bits plus having snatched up most of the smart people from around the world might have had just a little to do with it.

An over simplification for sure..

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
But the issue is that these days, pretty much every country has the basics like people. Mexico has people. China has people. India has people. Japan has people. America has people

For sure, we had people with jobs until our now multi-national corporations sent the jobs with the machinery and the knowledge over wherever they could make a quick profit. They let the cat out of the bag, the genie out of the bottle and made us a lesser powerhouse with workers with no training, no money, and paying no taxes. Maybe, just maybe that is why you are supporting a half a person extra with your payroll taxes. Ya think!!

[Edited 2013-08-01 20:52:21]
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:00 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 24):Sonny, I was buying stock when most on here were not even around.
So this is your fault.

Read again that I was investing in corporations that helped build the US economy, not destroy it. They were US Corporations, not Multi Nationals as they like to say when justifying their shipping jobs overseas, and hiding their profits overseas instead of paying US taxes. Gee! again maybe you are paying higher taxes than you should be paying because of corporations avoiding paying theirs. Now that is not fair is it?  
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BMI727
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:02 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 31):
An over simplification for sure..

I wish I could say it was, but after WWII that was exactly the case.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 31):
They let the cat out of the bag, the genie out of the bottle and made us a lesser powerhouse with workers with no training,

When did all the schools in America close? Or was it the realization that screwing together relatively simple household items really didn't take much training? Or people in other countries finally being able to get themselves a basic education?

And while you complain about there being no training, you should note that pretty much everything is better for people with education. Not only has the training been available, it has proven to effectively provide a considerable measure of shielding to the very dynamics you go on and on complaining about.

It's ironic that someone who whines so much about perceived privilege would have a sense of entitlement the size of the Goodyear blimp. You want the good job, but it shouldn't take training or effort.

By the way, you never answered my question about what makes Americans so much more worthy to put together simple items than anyone else. Why should Americans get special treatment?

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 32):
Read again that I was investing in corporations that helped build the US economy,

Did any of those companies export by any chance? If so, you helped contribute to destroying (by your definition) someone else's economy.
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romeobravo
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:59 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 15):
I ask, if you mean that I do not like the global economy, I certainly do not. I prefer to keep our wealth here, our jobs here. I certainly do not like bringing our wages down, while bringing their wages up in other countries. Our wages go down while our cost of living goes up. I have heard of helping others, but that is ridiculous.


Not only does this demonstrate and appalling grasp of economics, it also reveals some rather fascistic tendencies.

You think the US economy would be better off if it didn't trade with other countries?

And what makes Americans so special that they shouldn't have to compete with other countries who are willing to provide goods to Americans for cheaper than Americans are? These countries are helping America.

The best way to improve the lives of the poor, middle class and rich of all the countries in the world is free market capitalism (which includes sound money).

The reason i accuse you or politicising things is that you come here with your pre-conceptions that Bill Clinton was great and the problem with the world is that we aren't taxing the rich enough and that people are too greedy, but none of this holds up to any scrutiny and when it is demonstrated to you, you refuse to listen to it.

I guess the term is a useful idiot.

Quoting okie (Reply 14):
You flag from the UK, So I question exactly what are you charting since it has no identifier as to what it is referring.
UK? China? US? the World?

Yes, that is the US
 
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:31 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 17):
Small business owners did not send our manufacturing and jobs overseas, therefore depressing our wages, our standard of living, and damaging our social fabric by chronic unemployment. Meanwhile those corporations enjoy huge tax loopholes and pay a much lower effective rate of corporate taxes, meanwhile damaging the very government which awarded them, along with the peoples well being. Nice folks.

They are just doing to the global economy what you want your government to do to the owners of those companies - wealth distribution.

You don't like it when it's done to you, do you? Ah, the hard to understand fact that you, yes, you, are probably considered quite well off by the majority of people in this planet.
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RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:53 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 34):
You think the US economy would be better off if it didn't trade with other countries?

If trade involved jobs, then, yes. Exactly. There is a world of difference between trade and shipping jobs overseas.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 34):
The best way to improve the lives of the poor, middle class and rich of all the countries in the world is free market capitalism (which includes sound money).

It has done wonders for the already wealthy. They ship high paying skilled labor jobs overseas and eventually do bring them back but with no benefits and not even close to the pay it was before. Then, the "job creators" complain that too manyy people are on food stamps. Who put them there in the first place? They guy who lost his job to an overseas factory or the corporation?

Not only that, workers who paid into pensions over years and years out of their own pay have their pensions taken away because "we can't afford it" or some other BS reason and have to go on Social Security. Then, people who support the wealthy complain there are too many on Social Security. hmmmm.....

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
They are just doing to the global economy what you want your government to do to the owners of those companies - wealth distribution.

Which, for some odd reason, means pay scales. I mean, heaven forbid the person making $10 an hour, 30 hours a week get any benefits like profit sharing or anything. What is wrong for thousands of peoplpe to work their tail off and ask for a little extra while 10 or 20 people sit and do nothing and get millions every month. What's wrong with this picture?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8600
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 36):
Which, for some odd reason, means pay scales.

Not sure what you are getting at.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 36):
I mean, heaven forbid the person making $10 an hour, 30 hours a week get any benefits like profit sharing or anything.

What does this have to do with benefits? A lot of employees negotiate profit sharing.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 36):
What is wrong for thousands of peoplpe to work their tail off and ask for a little extra while 10 or 20 people sit and do nothing and get millions every month. What's wrong with this picture?

What's wrong with the picture you painted is that it doesn't exist.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
romeobravo
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 36):
If trade involved jobs, then, yes. Exactly. There is a world of difference between trade and shipping jobs overseas.

No there isn't. It's exactly the same thing. If another country can produce a good more cheaply than Americans can, it makes sense to import it from that country.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 36):
It has done wonders for the already wealthy. They ship high paying skilled labor jobs overseas and eventually do bring them back but with no benefits and not even close to the pay it was before. Then, the "job creators" complain that too manyy people are on food stamps. Who put them there in the first place? They guy who lost his job to an overseas factory or the corporation?

Never forget that nobody owes you anything in life. You have no right to a high paid job if nobody is willing to offer you one.

The free market has done wonders for everyone. It is the government's intervention with money that has caused the ills of today. Government intervention with money, which by definition affects one side of basically every transaction, is not compatible with the free market. The reason the US trade deficit is so large now, is because the US has been exporting greenbacks which its been printing. America is in a privileged position in that it is the world's reserve currency holder, but this is really just increasing the length of the rope it has to hang itself.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 36):
Not only that, workers who paid into pensions over years and years out of their own pay have their pensions taken away because "we can't afford it" or some other BS reason and have to go on Social Security. Then, people who support the wealthy complain there are too many on Social Security. hmmmm.....

And i hate to sound like a broken record but...when the government prints loads of money, it make it impossible to save for a pension. Saving for a pension should be a doddle, you should be able to do it yourself out of your pay packet, because your money is going to increase in value by a factor of about 5 over a period of 50 years. As of now though it's the opposite because it works the other way, every year your money gets less valuable, you better hope you have some assets to so your net worth stays the same.

If you just stop printing money then capitalism works very nicely. The economy grows steadily, the trade balance stays neutral, and income equality is kept in check.
 
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DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:17 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 38):
The free market has done wonders for everyone. It is the government's intervention with money that has caused the ills of today. Government intervention with money, which by definition affects one side of basically every transaction, is not compatible with the free market.

I'm against a lot of government intervention, but we can't pass it off like it's a black and white issue. Some is needed... a totally free market doesn't work and neither does the other extreme. Obviously, where we draw the line is the big argument, but we can't pretend like every single government regulation/intervention is bad
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: US Income Through The Years.

Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:32 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 35):
You don't like it when it's done to you, do you? Ah, the hard to understand fact that you, yes, you, are probably considered quite well off by the majority of people in this planet.

He's yet to provide even the thinnest rationale as to why he believes Americans are so deserving of getting special economic treatment.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 36):
Exactly. There is a world of difference between trade and shipping jobs overseas.

No there isn't. Just think how many people the UAE could employ if they built their own jets instead of buying them from Boeing.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 36):
They ship high paying skilled labor jobs overseas and eventually do bring them back but with no benefits and not even close to the pay it was before.

If you can ship them overseas so easily at the drop of a hat, how much skill do they really require?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 36):
Then, the "job creators" complain that too manyy people are on food stamps.

It isn't their obligation to keep people employed. They are, however, obligated to turn a profit.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 36):
Who put them there in the first place? They guy who lost his job to an overseas factory or the corporation?

The guy who probably didn't bother getting a high level of skill and isn't good for much beyond putting this rivet in that hole, but expects a mid-five figure salary (plus benefits and pension!) to do that.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
romeobravo
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

RE: US Income Through The Years.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:19 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 39):
I'm against a lot of government intervention, but we can't pass it off like it's a black and white issue. Some is needed... a totally free market doesn't work and neither does the other extreme. Obviously, where we draw the line is the big argument, but we can't pretend like every single government regulation/intervention is bad

Depends what you mean by a totally free market. Anarchy? Well i don't believe that would bring about a desirable outcome. If you mean state run police/army/courts and nothing else then sure it could work. Of course some government might bring about a more desirable results with regards to social mobility and such.

Never the less the government shouldn't mess with money. Even lefties should support that notion.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13418
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: US Income Through The Years.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:23 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
but I get to see nearly 30% of my income evaporate into government budgets.

Boo freaking hoo, 30% I'm paying closer to 44% plus much higher VAT, you Americans don't realise just how easy you have it!
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: US Income Through The Years.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:33 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 15):
Where did I say I had a problem with small business owners? Now corporations, that is a different ballgame.

Most small businesses are corporations.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):
Why should you get special treatment for being born American?

Precisely.

I also wonder what the anti-outsourcing crowd thinks about technology. Imagine how many jobs the ATM alone has destroyed. I probably make a withdraw once or twice a week, but I've spoken to a teller four times in my entire life. There would be a lot more bank teller jobs if ATMs were illegal. But I don't see many people advocating a cap on ATMs or anything of the sort.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13418
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: US Income Through The Years.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:50 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 40):
Just think how many people the UAE could employ if they built their own jets instead of buying them from Boeing.

Probably not that many, they'd outsource most of the production like Boeing does and only assemble the planes in the UAE.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
So if everyone makes twice as much, because everyone has a good job, but everything costs twice as much, since we all buy American to support everyone's good job, how is anyone's life any better?

Sound like Norway in a nutshell, and I'd say the average Norwegian lives a far better life than the average American.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 24):

Everyone would have food and clothing, and shelter. A noble accomplishment, never before attained.

Norway has attained it, along with free education and healthcare, 37.5 hour working week and 5 weeks annual leave.
 
romeobravo
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

RE: US Income Through The Years.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:53 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 44):
Norway has attained it, along with free education and healthcare, 37.5 hour working week and 5 weeks annual leave.

Easily done when you don't have to actually generate your own wealth, you can just pump it out of the earth.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11231
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: US Income Through The Years.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:21 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
A considerable portion of this country pays no income tax, or gets money back from the government, and it isn't the millionaires.

And sadly it was Republicans during the Reagan administration that allowed that to happen. It was for a "logical" reason as the cost to collect and pursue the "bottom 50%" is near the monies they provide (kinda tells how bad the wealth stratification is) but is still wrong as you disconnect people from the fact that they have to pay for the benefits they receive.

Quoting aa757first (Reply 43):
Most small businesses are corporations.

Actually, no. Just over a third of small businesses are incorporated.
http://smallbiztrends.com/2010/02/mo...the-self-employed-incorporate.html

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: US Income Through The Years.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:36 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 42):
Boo freaking hoo, 30% I'm paying closer to 44% plus much higher VAT, you Americans don't realise just how easy you have it!

You Europeans don't realize just how awful you have it.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 44):
Probably not that many, they'd outsource most of the production like Boeing does and only assemble the planes in the UAE.

A lot of components are made in America too, or more importantly, not in the UAE. All those foreign workers are destroying the Emirati economy, according to some.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 44):
Sound like Norway in a nutshell, and I'd say the average Norwegian lives a far better life than the average American.

If they don't mind having a lower ceiling perhaps. Also, keep in mind that Norway has 1/60 the population America does and considerable natural resources but still must levy onerous taxes on its citizens.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 45):
Easily done when you don't have to actually generate your own wealth, you can just pump it out of the earth.

I imagine that anyone who has actually worked in the energy industry would disagree with how easy it is to pump out of the earth.

Quoting tugger (Reply 46):
It was for a "logical" reason as the cost to collect and pursue the "bottom 50%" is near the monies they provide (kinda tells how bad the wealth stratification is) but is still wrong as you disconnect people from the fact that they have to pay for the benefits they receive.

It isn't just about collecting money to help the government, it also matters that it is enough to hurt the taxpayers. Right now, the 47%, or whatever the proportion currently is, can support whatever spending measures they want safe in the knowledge that it won't come back to bite them...at least not in the form of taxes.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
ALTF4
Posts: 1230
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:01 pm

RE: US Income Through The Years.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:58 am

Honestly, discussions like this piss me off. Why? I'll tell you why. I grew up in an average family. They couldn't afford to send me to a nice school and I wasn't going to tally up a bunch of debt; I went to an in-state school and kept my grades up to get the in-state tuition assistance so I didn't have to pay much. Anybody can do that.

I worked hard in school. I graduated with a 3.89 GPA, magna cum laude - one missed test question away from summa cum laude. Anybody can graduate with that GPA.

I worked while I was in college, and still took a full course load, and on top of that, studied and passed industry certifications. Anybody can do that.

I picked a decent degree to major in. I didn't pick sports management, art, or similar. I picked something that had immediate applications in the world. Anybody can do that.

I spent time above and beyond school to learn what I was studying. I didn't have many weeknights or weekends free, but I worked for it. Anybody can do that.

I learned to present myself well. I took criticism and made myself better for it. I learned to write well in professional and academic settings. I learned to speak well in professional and academic settings. Anybody can do that.

I got off my ass and marketed myself to companies. I didn't sit around waiting for them to come to me. I didn't assume I would get a job some day, so today it doesn't matter. No, I actively sought out internships and opportunities. Anybody can do that.

How did it turn out? Fairly well. I'm 23. I manage a team of 8 people. I am trusted to make multi-million dollar decisions on behalf of the company I work for; I just made a decision regarding 15 million dollars. They trust me, but only because I proved myself to them. I already have a "senior" in my title. I make a nice salary (and had the balls to ask for it), with a nice amount on top for performance-based incentive pay. I get daily interaction with C-level executives at a Fortune 100 company.

So don't you effing tell me that the only people that "make it" in the world are the privileged ones who came from money, because I sure as hell did not come from money. I wasn't from the bottom of the barrel either, but the picture you all are painting is that if you didn't graduate from an Ivy League, then you're not going to make it in life. The way I made it through school is certainly attainable by many, many, many people in the world. Saying that the only way to make it is via money or fame is an insult to anybody who actually did work to get where they are. I'm sorry things didn't work out for you as well as you wanted them to, but we are all products of our own decisions (unless you believe in a higher power, then you can factor that in as well). I'm not saying you haven't worked hard if you aren't happy with where you are, but did you really sacrifice everything you could have? Did you make the best decisions (maybe you should have picked a different career?). Don't blame others for your decisions.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
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WarRI1
Topic Author
Posts: 14195
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

RE: US Income Through The Years.

Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:01 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33):
You want the good job, but it shouldn't take training or effort.

I had the good job for 36 very profitable years. I was highly trained by my company for free.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 34):
The best way to improve the lives of the poor, middle class and rich of all the countries in the world is free market capitalism (which includes sound money).

I will try not to laugh too loud.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 34):
I guess the term is a useful idiot.

This useful idiot who knows nothing of business, nothing of economics, nothing of corporations will say this. I will bet my net worth is maybe, just maybe worthy of someone who does know economics, does know how to invest, does know
how to retire well off. I did all this on a job that paid very well, and the training cost me nothing. As a matter of fact I was sent to school many times on full expenses, and it cost me nothing, and I was Union. Politicize that.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.

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