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joacocifuentes
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What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:33 pm

Last 1st of July Russia's lower house of parliament passed a law that forbids the propaganda of "nontraditional sexual relations" or homosexual as they said before.- The law imposes significant fines of up to $31,000 for providing information about the LGBT community to minors, holding gay pride events, speaking in defense of gay rights, or equating gay and heterosexual relationships. In a truly egalitarian and internationalist spirit, the bill applies to Russians and foreigners alike, as well as media organizations. So what will LGTB population do ? They cannot even wear a gay-flag neckless or hold hands in the street as it would be considered as gay propaganda. Foreigners visiting Russia may handle it, but living there... Opinions?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:39 pm

I expect a flood of asylum requests for persecution in other countries.

And that gets tough on the host countries because how do you actually know that they're gay and not just trying to emigrate and pretend to be?
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ozglobal
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:40 pm

The IOC if it had any guts would move the Olympics now to any one of the dozen or so countries already well equipped to host them. Of course they will not because the thing is about deals and bucks.

The UN should place punitive sanctions on all members of the Russian parliament, cancelling all travel visas and naming them all individually 'persona non grata'. No more gaudy nouveau riche holidays for Russian crooked rich in the South of France, London, Vegas, etc.

We'll see how that tests their homophobic resolve....
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:42 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):

The UN should place punitive sanctions on all members of the Russian parliament, cancelling all travel visas and naming them all individually 'persona non grata'. No more gaudy nouveau riche holidays for Russian crooked rich in the South of France, London, Vegas, etc.

I agree, but I doubt it will happen.
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AeroWesty
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting joacocifuentes (Thread starter):
Opinions?

Fight! Fight! Fight! What do you think Stonewall was all about? Gays in Russia can either take the position of "maybe if I just act normal and blend in, they won't notice me," ::barf:: or they can organize to get the laws overturned.

There's a lot of pressure the LGBT community in other countries can do to put pressure on Russia, too. Funny, just a week or so after the Stoli boycott was announced, the Stoli homepage automatically directs you to their new #lgbt page with a letter from the CEO.

It's like the 60s all over again.
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DocLightning
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:59 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
There's a lot of pressure the LGBT community in other countries can do to put pressure on Russia, too. Funny, just a week or so after the Stoli boycott was announced, the Stoli homepage automatically directs you to their new #lgbt page with a letter from the CEO.

Because it's a stupid boycott. Stoli sold in the USA isn't even Russian.
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AeroWesty
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:02 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Because it's a stupid boycott.

It's not stupid, it shows the power of the pink dollar. That's worth flexing and showing what it can do.

Or you could just sit back and blend in hoping no one will notice you.
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joacocifuentes
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:08 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
And that gets tough on the host countries because how do you actually know that they're gay and not just trying to emigrate and pretend to be?

Yes but they can move to countries like Argentina, where you get citizenship after living here for only two yrs, besides in Argentina we have LGTB rights like marriage, adoption.- I know it's kind of extreme moving here, but picture another country.- And what about the people that cannot move to another country? Estimations show 10millons LGTB people in Russia.-

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
The IOC if it had any guts would move the Olympics now to any one of the dozen or so countries already well equipped to host them. Of course they will not because the thing is about deals and bucks.

I don't see this happening because they won't turn an athlete in, so I guess.- Also, I suppose they have already considered the impact of this law on the OG and arranged something.-

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
I agree, but I doubt it will happen.

Idem.-

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
Fight! Fight! Fight! What do you think Stonewall was all about? Gays in Russia can either take the position of "maybe if I just act normal and blend in, they won't notice me," ::barf:: or they can organize to get the laws overturned.

As you said a giant protest would be good.- Russian's prissons are almost saturated.-

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
It's like the 60s all over again.

Yes, indeed Orthodox church consider it some unmoral and basically, an illness.- Being gay was an illness until 1973 in the States.-
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:31 pm

Quoting joacocifuentes (Thread starter):
In a truly egalitarian and internationalist spirit, the bill applies to Russians and foreigners alike, as well as media organizations.

From purely technical standpoint it's application of territorial principle of law, nothing else.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
The UN should place punitive sanctions on all members of the Russian parliament, cancelling all travel visas and naming them all individually 'persona non grata'.

The UN... LOL! That's a brilliant idea. Let the UN Human Rights Council handle it... I am sure that the present UNHRC members (and beacons of gay-friendliness) like Mauritania, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE or Uganda will be more than happy to enact such sanctions. That is if they can actually find the time for it because for the last decade or so the UNHRC has been too busy passing ridiculous resolutions "defamation of religion" and organizing the farce called Durban Review Conferences.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
It's not stupid, it shows the power of the pink dollar.

It's stupid, because:

Presently the internationally distributed version of Stolichnaya is bottled in Latvia by SPI Group, also known as the Spirit Group. In 2009, William Grant & Sons signed an agreement to distribute Stolichnaya in the USA, taking over from PepsiCo. The William Grant & Sons distribution contract will expire on December 31, 2013 and will not be renewed, due to SPI Group's stated desire to manage their brand directly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolichnaya

[Edited 2013-07-31 16:40:25]
 
AeroWesty
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:40 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 8):
It's stupid, because

It's an example of what the pink dollar can accomplish. It isn't stupid to do that. And yes, there ARE Russian-sourced ingredients in Stoli, so you guys who think otherwise should sharpen your argument up so you don't look so ill-informed. From SPI Group's CEO:

Quote:
Stoli’s production process involves both Russia and Latvia. Stoli is made from Russian ingredients (wheat, rye and raw alcohol) blended with pure artesian well water at our historic distillery and bottling facility Latvijas Balzams (www.lb.lv) in Riga, Latvia (formerly part of the Russian Empire and then of the Soviet Union). Latvijas Balzams did not recently become part of the Stoli heritage, but has been one of its main production and bottling facilities since 1948. This has allowed the brand to deliver the outstanding quality it is recognized for consistently across the years. What changed in the last years is politics, with Latvia becoming an independent state part of the EU.

Source: http://www.stoli.com/downloads/LGBT_Community_Letter.pdf

Honestly, what's happened to the gay community. Did what we fight for in the 60s and 70s, and the sacrifices we made make it too easy for y'all? There are still battles to fight.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:58 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 9):
And yes, there ARE Russian-sourced ingredients in Stoli, so you guys who think otherwise should sharpen your argument up so you don't look so ill-informed.

Thanks for proving my point: Why should Latvia get dragged into this boycott? Because they were once occupied by Russia or because some poorly educated activist did not do his history and geography homework? If anyone's ill-informed, it's Mr. Savage with his half-baked, knee-jerk reactions.
If you want to effectively hurt Russia, boycott Lukoil. It's a company with links all the way to Kremlin (and the Prague Castle, unfortunately) and oil revenues is what makes the country tick. PA, DE, NJ and NY seem to be literally infested by Lukoil gas stations http://www.lukoilamericas.com/index.php/station-locator . Not sure how it works in the US, but over here their stations are corporate owned, so there's no need to worry about hurting uninvolved franchisee.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 9):
It's an example of what the pink dollar can accomplish. It isn't stupid to do that.

It's stupid because the target of the boycott is wrong as you have documented yourself.

[Edited 2013-07-31 17:04:22]
 
AeroWesty
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:02 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 10):
Thanks for proving my point: Why should Latvia get dragged into this boycott?

Didn't you read the part about "Stoli is made from Russian ingredients (wheat, rye and raw alcohol)".

Just because they bottle it with Latvian water in Latvia, doesn't mean the content isn't primarily Russian.

But go ahead, just act normally. Blend in. Drink your Stoli. Perhaps no one will notice you.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:27 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Didn't you read the part about "Stoli is made from Russian ingredients (wheat, rye and raw alcohol)".

Of course I did. I do not dispute it. Nevertheless, Stolichnaya (unlike Russian Standard) is a poor choice of a target for a boycott given the transborder nature of its business. Perhaps someone was too busy waving the rainbow flag to spare a deeper thought about what is being suggested.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Just because they bottle it with Latvian water in Latvia, doesn't mean the content isn't primarily Russian.

It's not just water. They probably tax it in Latvia and provide jobs for quite a few Latvians. My question stands: Why should Latvia feel any negatives of this campaign? Because some activist could not think up of anything better than a simplistic, knee-jerk association Russia = vodka?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
But go ahead, just act normally. Blend in. Drink your Stoli. Perhaps no one will notice you.

Thanks for the advice, but I don't drink (any) vodka.

[Edited 2013-07-31 17:30:02]
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:30 am

I am against what Russia is doing but as long as there are assurances that no gay athletes or tourists are in danger of anything during the games, we should keep politics out of it. The IOC should ensure that the Olympics are held in a place that keeps people safe, but if they start boycotting every place where people had objections, they could probably boycott every single city in the world.

Host it in the US? Boycotted due to the Iraq Invasion. Host it in Spain? Bull fighting, bad for animals. France? Many are offended they banned burkas, boycotted. You could come up with a complaint for any place.

I don't see these new laws as helping Russia rise at all. They have a lot of potential right now and although I don't think homophobia will make or break their successes, it certainly won't do them any good
 
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:34 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 12):
Of course I did. I do not dispute it. Nevertheless, Stolichnaya (unlike Russian Standard) is a poor choice of a target for a boycott given the transborder nature of its business. Perhaps someone was too busy waving the rainbow flag to spare a deeper thought about what is being suggested.

  . It's the height of stupidity--it has minimal exposure to Russia and Stoli has been supporting/enabling the lgbt community for years. It's almost as bad as what we oppose "Russia = bad mkay!"
I don't take responsibility at all
 
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:35 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 12):
Nevertheless, Stolichnaya (unlike Russian Standard) is a poor choice of a target for a boycott given the transborder nature of its business.

It's a start. It was something immediate which could show the power of the pink dollar. It's shown to be so effective, Stoli routes every single customer who goes to their home page to the CEO's letter, no matter who they are.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 12):
Why should Latvia feel any negatives of this campaign?

People can't buy another vodka from Latvia? Why not? If Latvian vodka is so good, there should be people lining up to buy it. If there isn't, well, that's capitalism for you. You'll get no apologies from me for that.
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RussianJet
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:06 am

Quoting joacocifuentes (Thread starter):
but living there... Opinions?

I have one Russian gay friend who lives with his partner in Moscow. He lives pretty peacefully, and to my knowledge has never experienced any significant abuse or threat as a result of his sexuality. On the other hand, he is guarded in public and would not engage in any particularly overt PDAs though, which in itself is a restriction, to not be able to do that and live openly. However, the greater danger lies in being beaten up, not arrested. There are a few gay-friendly corners of Moscow, clubs and so on, but again the real risk is of homophobic assault if it's clear that's where you're going to or from. Not a foregone conclusion by any means, but a far higher risk than in most western countries. It remains to be seen what will happen to such places in the near future. Here's a few places from the Lonely Planet:
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/russia/m...ntertainment-nightlife/gay-lesbian
He has been to them many times without incident, but understands the risk and takes sensible precautions to counteract it. My friend also mitigates the overall situation to some extent by taking fairly regular holidays to more gay-friendly corners of the world.

In summary, he's not overt with his partner in public but otherwise lives a peaceful life. He's never had trouble with neighbours. Having lived there all his life, I don't ever get the impression that he's massively aggrieved by the situation as he's simply used to it, and is a generally happy person anyway. For him, these laws practically speaking change very little. It's never been ok in Russia to hold hands with your boyfriend in the street. However, his acceptance of the situation is itself kind of sad, given that ultimately he 'has' to be used to not being able to display his sexuality in public. To reiterate though, that's more from the threat of assault either physical or verbal than being thrown into jail for holding hands, which I honestly doubt would happen unless you were taking part in an 'illegal' gathering or protest.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
I agree, but I doubt it will happen.

It would be impractical, as it would be viewed by many as completely unfair, given that countries with far worse human rights situations hardly ever get subjected to such measures. Also, Russia is a member of the security council, and there are a fair few other homophobic countries in the world as we all know.
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joacocifuentes
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:11 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 16):


I completely agree.-
 
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:43 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 12):
Perhaps someone was too busy waving the rainbow flag to spare a deeper thought about what is being suggested.

Kind of like when people were protesting against Arizona for SB 1070 they advocated boycotting Arizona Iced Tea. Never mind it is a New York based company that picked the name from among other place names at random. The ends justify the means for some.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
The IOC if it had any guts would move the Olympics now to any one of the dozen or so countries already well equipped to host them.

If these were Apartheid type laws enacted that directly targeted ethnic groups coming to the games I think they would reconsider. This really isn't even remotely enough of a story at this point to make the IOC change their mind. Now that could change as attitudes towards South Africa for example changed but I barely see a blip about this story in the media now. Times do change though and I doubt the IOC was concerned about the Soviet Union's human rights record when the Moscow games were awarded. Homosexuality was a crime in the Soviet Union at that time and this was never mentioned by anyone I recall at the time to justify that boycott. Even 15-20 years ago in the early days of the internet this probably would have had zero coverage by any media. It would have merely been accepted as the cost of doing business in the new Russia. Hopefully when the games go on this will be a much bigger story and it will put more pressure on Russia.
 
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:48 am

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 18):
This really isn't even remotely enough of a story at this point to make the IOC change their mind. Now that could change as attitudes towards South Africa for example changed but I barely see a blip about this story in the media now.

If you mean the US media, I'm not surprised. In my experience, the US domestic media and its viewers show no interest in the rest of the world, unless there is a major war with US troops deployed or a natural catastrophe the makes for cheap 'disaster porn', in which case CNN covers it almost non-stop.

In Europe it is a prominent story, as it should be.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 18):
Hopefully when the games go on this will be a much bigger story and it will put more pressure on Russia.

Let's hope so, but as mentioned, this is already a big story in international media.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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mariner
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:23 am

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 18):
This really isn't even remotely enough of a story at this point to make the IOC change their mind.

The boycott has made it to New Zealand, which means it is more than a blip - LOL - and according to this article the IOC has responded, however blandly:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10905357

"US gay bars' vodka ban over Russia's gay policy

Responding to the furor, the IOC said it has received assurances "from the highest level of government in Russia that the legislation will not affect those attending or taking part in the Games." It pledged to ensure there would be no discrimination against athletes, officials, spectators and the media in Sochi.

However, the Human Rights Campaign, a leading US gay-rights group, said the IOC should take a stronger stand."


And at the same time we have this:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...uted-2014-winter/story?id=19829868

"Gay Athletes Could Be Prosecuted at 2014 Winter Olympics, Russian Lawmaker Suggests"

Make noise, I say. At least show you care - assuming you do care.

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skywaymanaz
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:50 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 20):
we have this:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...uted-2014-winter/story?id=19829868

"Gay Athletes Could Be Prosecuted at 2014 Winter Olympics, Russian Lawmaker Suggests"

I doubt even Russia is that foolish. I'm not at all surprised one of their politicians would say that. Unless the athletes in question are having sex in public I think the police there will be mindful the whole world is watching. It probably isn't lost on police in Russia that so many of their citizens have dash cams these days.
 
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:52 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
There's a lot of pressure the LGBT community in other countries

Well, we can't aid Russian LGBT organizations financially, because apparently accepting foreign funds makes you a spy:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/06/25/r...ssia-harsh-toll-foreign-agents-law

Was reading the other day about a new trend in Russia, where gay teenage boys are being tricked on gay dating websites into meeting someone, only to be met by neo-nazis who will beat and torture them. They film it and post the whole thing on the internet, in order to "discourage" and terrorize other young gay men. The videos are also sent to families, friends and schools of these kid. Several of these kids have killed themselves as a result. And as per usual, police and other authorities are not expressing any amount of concern.

http://www.advocate.com/news/world-n...gay-teens-anti-pedophilia-campaign

This is just so disgusting. I don't even know how to describe what I feel about this, other than shock and sadness.
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RussianJet
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:31 am

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 21):
I doubt even Russia is that foolish

It won't happen.

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 21):
I'm not at all surprised one of their politicians would say that

Some big-mouth politician making idiotic, provocative threats is as dependable in Russia as Michael O'Leary making controversial statements in the airline business. The thing they have in common is that the vast majority is hot air for attention-seeking purposes.
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joacocifuentes
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:50 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 22):
This is just so disgusting. I don't even know how to describe what I feel about this, other than shock and sadness.

This is an example of what RussianJet said, public humillation and torture.-
 
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mariner
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:55 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 23):
It won't happen.

I sure hope you're right, but you can't guarantee that.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 23):
Some big-mouth politician making idiotic, provocative threats is as dependable in Russia as Michael O'Leary making controversial statements in the airline business.

Easy enough to dismiss him as a blowhard, but given that the politician who said this also co-authored the original anti-gay bill I suggest he has some influence as well as an agenda.

This photo shouldn't be happening either, just because someone is gay:

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/...slation-olympics/story?id=19820036

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RussianJet
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 9:57 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 25):
Easy enough to dismiss him as a blowhard, but given that the politician who said this also co-authored the original anti-gay bill I suggest he has some influence as well as an agenda.

Sure, but in this context there is no way they'll arrest Olympic athletes, bill or no bill.
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mariner
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:02 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 26):
Sure, but in this context there is no way they'll arrest Olympic athletes, bill or no bill.

You can't guarantee that.

And even if (hypocritically) they lay off the athletes, how about the tourists coming to watch, who will watch out for them?

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RussianJet
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:09 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
You can't guarantee that.

No, of course I can't personally guarantee that. I'd lay large sums of money on it though. Even Russia has limits, and jeopardising a successful Olympics is not in their interests.

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
how about the tourists coming to watch, who will watch out for them?

I would expect that the whole thing will be relaxed in the pursuit of a successful delivery of the games. They know that there's huge attention on this issue, and that foreign governments will be looking out for this. If any such tourists start handing out leaflets or holding protests then of course things could kick off, but as far as just being openly gay goes I honestly think there won't be much of an issue when the time comes. Like you say though, I can't guarantee it - but it's my opinion following analysis of the situation.
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mariner
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:24 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 28):
I would expect that the whole thing will be relaxed in the pursuit of a successful delivery of the games

Again, I hope you're right. But the laws are on the books they could be used.

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AeroWesty
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:59 pm

Quoting Doona (Reply 22):
This is just so disgusting. I don't even know how to describe what I feel about this, other than shock and sadness.

   Thanks for pointing out the first link, I hadn't seen that one yet. Of course, Dobby the Elf, err, Vlad the Putin, is now the favorite of American conservatives, in a sad twist of fate.

Why American Conservatives Love Anti-Gay Putin

Quote:
Thirty years ago, American conservatives declared Russia the enemy. But now that Putin has declared war on gays, the religious right is in full support of its freedom-limiting tactics.

Just more evidence that the conservative movement in the U.S. is just about the least freedom-loving and least patriotic political ideology this country has seen.

I'm also rethinking my opinion on the Sochi Olympics if the IOC cannot keep athletes safe from prosecution and harassment.
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:01 pm

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 21):
It probably isn't lost on police in Russia that so many of their citizens have dash cams these days.

Yup those dash cams are mainly used to help the police rather than hinder them. Besides when you're paying a Russian cop a bribe they are normally parked behind you.
 
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:50 am

Russian Sports Minister: Anti Gay laws will be enforced on athletes and spectators during the Olympics.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/...i+2014+Olympics/8737741/story.html

Sad and wrong....
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:08 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 20):
Responding to the furor, the IOC said it has received assurances "from the highest level of government in Russia that the legislation will not affect those attending or taking part in the Games." It pledged to ensure there would be no discrimination against athletes, officials, spectators and the media in Sochi.

Which of course means that they'll be free to discriminate against all the other LGBTs in the country. I don't really view that statement as anything positive.

I actually hope they try to enforce the laws during the Olympics. That's the only way a lot of people (at least in the US) are actually going to see what these laws mean.

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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:55 am

To me the real goal of the anti-GLTB law in Russia is control of anyone who challenges authority of Putin and the oligarchs who control the wealth and power there. We have seen the crackdowns on P***** Riot and dissitant groups in places like Chechnya as examples to discourage any dissent or objections or exposing the horrible truths of modern Russia from the public. I am quite sure Putin's favorites have a fair share of Gay men and they are protected from these laws.

As to fears of protests at the Winter Olympics, the leadership know that athletes are highly restricted from any political or social protest by the IOC, their national committees as well as for those that have them, endorsement sponsors. Spectators will also not want to hurt their national teams and athletes as well as not get jailed or booted out. This policy is to remove any support in money and spirit from outsiders from 'interfering'.
 
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:57 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 34):
P***** Riot and dissitant groups in places like Chechnya as examples to discourage any dissent or objections or exposing the horrible truths of modern Russia from the public.

Pussy Riot is not a reasonable comparison. In a conservative, actually increasingly religious country, there was in truth a very good deal of public appetite to see them punished for doing what they did in Khram Khrista Spasitelja. Had they been protesting in Red Square or something, people would be far more sympathetic towards them. It's far too easy for people looking in to just dismiss the whole thing solely as Putinist repression, when actually it's far more complex than that. Also, you mention Chechnya. Well, having fought two bloody wars there in recent memory, which could have brought about the disintegration of the whole Russian Federation as it's known, it's hardly surprising that a very tight grip is maintained there. I'm not for a second saying that there aren't huge problems. as there quite clearly are - and I'm no fan of Putin. Some of it, however, is not as simplistic as much of the west likes to suggest.

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 32):
Russian Sports Minister: Anti Gay laws will be enforced on athletes and spectators during the Olympics.

What was said was this:

Quote:
"But if he goes out into the streets and starts to propagandize, then of course he will be held accountable."

Mutko emphasized that the law wasn't designed to punish anyone for being gay or lesbian.

As I mentioned earlier, if you're silly enough to go handing out leaflets or starting demonstrations instead of getting on with competing in or watching the games, given that you know the local law on that, you can expect trouble. This does not signal my support of the laws, but the fact is that sometimes we all have to be careful of local laws when we travel. The same will probably be true of the World Cup in Qatar. I wouldn't have recommended people start anti-government protests in Beijing either. Fairly likely you'd get your collar felt in those circumstances too. This principle is not exclusive to Russia, as difficult as it might be to look past.
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mariner
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:07 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 35):
This does not signal my support of the laws, but the fact is that sometimes we all have to be careful of local laws when we travel.

We sure do. I've spent a long life traveling in countries where being homosexual is not just illegal but in some countries, punishable by death.

But at least in most of those countries, there needs to be an action - usually a sex act - to get you into trouble. The laws in Russia are now so broad ranging that almost anything can be a problem:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...-problems-with-the-sochi-olympics/

"This imposes fines on those who spread propaganda “directed at forming nontraditional sexual setups” or that gives the “distorted understanding” that homosexuals are “socially equivalent” to heterosexuals. The “homosexual propaganda” penalised under the legislation includes wearing a rainbow flag or tweeting positive messages about gays or lesbians."

Their country, their laws. But what will be done about the skinheads, who see the laws as open slather to beat up people they think are gay, without reprimand.

Forget the Pride House, that went long ago - as a threat to Russian territorial integrity - and IOC hardly said boo:

http://americablog.com/2012/03/inter...t-lgbt-athletes-at-2014-games.html

But judge Svetlana Mordovina ruled against them saying that Pride House would threaten the growth of the Russian population and therefore risk the country’s ‘territorial integrity’.

And even if the athletes are "protected" - how about their supporters, both foreign and Russian? Does cheering an out gay ice-skater - and at least one gay ice-skater will be out - qualify as breaking the law? It would seem to do so, or be interpreted by hard-liners as that.

My answer is simple - I wouldn't go.

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RussianJet
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:47 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
But at least in most of those countries, there needs to be an action - usually a sex act - to get you into trouble. The laws in Russia are now so broad ranging that almost anything can be a problem:

Well, as I said before I see it as being no risk to athletes or spectators if they don't start engaging in protests or handing out protest materials in the streets. I think that's where the line will be drawn with the authorities.

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
My answer is simple - I wouldn't go.

That's understandable.

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):
The laws in Russia are now so broad ranging that almost anything can be a problem:

Well, having relayed my friend's experience of daily life there, I can't see anything much getting you in trouble unless you start either protesting, handing stuff out, or snogging in public under a copper's nose. I appreciate the latter is itself a potentially severe personal restriction, but if you're just going about your business, keeping everything on the down-low, you're very unlikely to get into trouble. Why should I, I here you say? Well, for better or for worse we all have to modify our behaviour in other countries to be aware of local legal and cultural considerations. If you're not prepared to do that, regardless of the rights and wrongs, then you either have scant regard for your own neck or an unrealistic view of other countries.

Having said all of that, having spoken to him directly about this discussion this morning, he further relates that the biggest fear about these laws is not the specific detail and immediate impact of them, but rather the fact that he feels that they are simply adding fuel to the already established fire of homophobia in Russia, meaning that the real fear is in the reaction of the public over time rather than that of Police. He further stated that while he himself is never targeted for harassment (his very words - "I'm invisible - nobody would know"), his somewhat younger, camper partner was recently subjected to someone physically threatening him in the metro, which has obviously distressed them both somewhat. Never any Police harassment for either of them though, but he says that the impression from friends and anecdotal stories is that if any of them were to suffer homophobic attack, the Police would likely not be quick to either assist or investigate. He ended by saying that while the future was unclear, he fears that this might be only the beginning.
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mariner
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:21 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 37):
If you're not prepared to do that, regardless of the rights and wrongs, then you either have scant regard for your own neck or an unrealistic view of other countries.

As I said in my previous post, I've spent a long traveling life being conscious of the laws of the societies I am in.

But I repeat - and the experience of your friend would seem to support this - the laws, themselves so broad ranging, are likely encourage that general and sometimes violent homophobia.

The laws create a second class and despised citizenry. It's happened before.

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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:14 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
But I repeat - and the experience of your friend would seem to support this - the laws, themselves so broad ranging, are likely encourage that general and sometimes violent homophobia.

Agreed, but in the case of the games I am confident that the Police will keep the ruffians down. While being good at other types of repression, they're also pretty good at keeping the pests down during a major event like this.

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
The laws create a second class and despised citizenry. It's happened before.

Precisely the fear he stated this morning.
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:37 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
I am against what Russia is doing but as long as there are assurances that no gay athletes or tourists are in danger of anything during the games, we should keep politics out of it.

Politics and pogroms are two different things. BUT more than one Russian minister has said that the athletes and spectators will be arrested if they break the law.

And the IOC can't conscion itself to break the law. I very much hope Russia starts arresting athletes carrying rainbow flags at the border because THAT will quickly cancel the games.

Quoting mariner (Reply 36):

Their country, their laws

Would you say that if instead the targeted group was Jews?
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AeroWesty
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 8:48 pm

Someone who's imaginative and artistic needs to come up with a parody video to portray the Sochi mascots as blatant homosexuals. It'd go viral!   

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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:07 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 40):
Would you say that if instead the targeted group was Jews?

Yes. It is their country, their laws. I can't change those laws - all I can do is protest those laws, whether that protest achieves anything or not.

Nothing I say will persuade Iran to get rid of the death penalty for homosexual activity - but I can still protest those laws.

I am mildy surprised that you ask the question. It should be fairly clear from my posts where my convictions lie.

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luckyone
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:52 pm

This is getting ridiculous to the point of comical. Does the Russian government really have nothing better to work on? Or are they actually so incapable of fixing real problems they now have to focus on such a trivial issue as this...

I look at it this way (mostly tongue-in-cheek, and maybe a few other places...): when you try to force homosexuals into the closet, you are encouraging them to pretend or try to be straight, and many of us will end up marrying and having children with a woman who is our legal wife, and lesbians their husband. How ironic that a law intended to suppress gays may actually end up spreading the "gay gene" more.

In addition, now Russia is claiming that Madonna and Lady Gaga have violated the terms of their "cultural exchange visas." I guess the promoters, the city authorities who issued permits for the concerts, and a few other "authorities" dropped the ball, and whoever issued the visa must've been hiding under a rock when those performances were announced around the world months before they took place.
 
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:59 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 40):
And the IOC can't conscion itself to break the law. I very much hope Russia starts arresting athletes carrying rainbow flags at the border because THAT will quickly cancel the games.

I would agree but I'd feel bad for those actually arrested. Honestly, I see people continuing to make a big stink, the games will be held in Russia, there will be a ton of people carrying rainbow flags in support, and I think Russia won't do anything/very much and surrender the issue (for the games only, and very quietly/not publicly)
 
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:01 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 43):
This is getting ridiculous to the point of comical. Does the Russian government really have nothing better to work on?

They do. This is a distraction. Russia has been having problems with a dropping birth rate and also corrupt and incompetent leadership that has turned what was a bright promise for a new democracy in the 1990s into a repressive, third-world, theocratic dictatorship. Mr. Putin has been busy locking up his political opposition, as well as average protestors.

But what he really needed was a scapegoat. It can't be Jews because 1) He likes the Jews and 2) That would lead to a war; holocaust was too recent. Can't be immigrants because immigrants are needed to build the infrastructure and work in the industry. But the gays? They don't make babies and they are still fashionable to hate. So blame it on the gays.

It's depressing to think, but if Nazis had run their Holocaust without the massive invasions of surrounding countries, I doubt the USA would have ever gone to war with them.
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:11 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 45):
It's depressing to think, but if Nazis had run their Holocaust without the massive invasions of surrounding countries, I doubt the USA would have ever gone to war with them.

You're probably right. Though what technically brought us into war (I know, a technicality!) was Nazi Germany declaring war on the United States in retaliation for our declaration against Japan. But yes, had that not happened within a year we would've been dragged into WW2 regardless. Roosevelt knew this, but campaigned against it in 1940 ("pro-peace" folks take note of that one). Ok, history lesson over.

To get back to the topic at hand, Russia, aside from Moscow and a few other places, is a very big, very rural, very backwards place, run by a few men who were around during the days of the Soviet Union. So, just because a mouse lives in a cookie jar, it doesn't make him a cookie.

*Edited for a spelling error.

[Edited 2013-08-02 15:12:30]
 
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:14 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):
Agreed, but in the case of the games I am confident that the Police will keep the ruffians down

As they did here, with the "ruffians" attacking the police?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B20cige_Fo&feature=player_embedded

To set it up, a lone picketer went to Palace Square with his rainbow flag to protest the new law. Unfortunately, it was Airborne Troops Day and a group of soldiers (muscles on flagrant display, as if they were modelling for Tom of Finland) take offence.

This link provides a translation of what was said during the violence, including the long rant in the second half by one of the soldiers:

http://www.animalnewyork.com/2013/dr...ights-protestor-fight-with-police/

"Then, the drunken leader proceeds to rant at the camera about the “evil darkness” of “the bitches” in Russia and how bothered “we, normal human men” are by their sheer existence. “This is evil. Putin is fag and the rest of it is all shit. The entire country is on its knees. We are Russians!” In the background, a soldier screams at a cop, “Why are you not ticketing the faggot parade?” Then, the soldiers start attacking journalists and smacking down their cameras."

I can't vouch for the translation. But you don't really need one, the pictures say it all and I'll give the last wors to Andrew Sullivan:

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/...-moscow-summit-mr-president-ctd-2/

"Cancel That Moscow Summit, Mr President, Ctd

Is it me or don’t the steroidal paratroopers look like French circuit queens? The displaced homo-eroticism is almost comically obvious, while being equally disgusting."


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RussianJet
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:11 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 43):
This is getting ridiculous to the point of comical. Does the Russian government really have nothing better to work on?

To say that they have better things to be focusing on is the biggest understatement of the year. I know a fair few Russians who are pretty apathetic towards the entire gay issue being played out here, who think that instead of provoking debate about whether a carton of Kefir with a rainbow on the front of it 'teaches' kids to be gay, the government should instead be focusing on things like the state of Russian pensions, the value of the currency, the appalling roads in the country and the overall quality of life. Asked what they actually feel about gay people, the response comes that they simply don't actually care who's what, when many pensioners can't afford to eat properly. So say the reasonably well-educated. Some people undoubtedly do care, but that's usually because they're too stupid to think for themselves and crave a good bandwagon to jump on. This, the more so when it means there's a chance they can beat someone up.

They say the same about the anti-piracy laws being introduced, which are similarly mere distractions from the real issues of the day, with the added benefit of improving government control of the internet. This government has become truly expert at implementing useless, pointless laws which benefit only them by distracting people from the repeated failure to move Russia forward to becoming the truly great country it could be.
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AeroWesty
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:17 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 47):
http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/...-moscow-summit-mr-president-ctd-2/

In that video, aren't the cops hauling the French circuit queens away as well?
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