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mariner
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:36 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 49):
In that video, aren't the cops hauling the French circuit queens away as well?

Yes. When the regular cops (light blue shirts) try to arrest the gay guy, the Muscle Boys aren't happy - presumably they want to deal with it themselves.

So then the SWAT team arrives - the ones with OMOH on their backs - in the big van. They try to put the gay guy in the big van and you can see the Muscle Men pulling him back out.

So now a war develops between the cops and the Muscle Men, and arrests, which leads to the rant by the Muscle Men spokesman, that Putin is a fag and it's all shit.

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RussianJet
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:46 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 47):
Unfortunately, it was Airborne Troops Day

As I found out personally one day, all bets are off on VDV day. One couldn't choose a worse day to try and mount a protest for equality, unless of course you are actually feeling suicidal in which case it's perfect. It's best just to stay the hell away from them, gay or not, and that's all there is to say about that. I've seen tornadoes in films do less damage than that lot after they've been on the sauce. I've never in my life seen such a concentration of insanely drunk people rampaging about and running amok, absolutely all of whom had arms wider than my head.

Having said that, ОМОН (Otryad Mobilniy Osobogo Naznacheniya - mobile special forces) are no pussies either. One ОМОН guy who I saw in Siberia was literally the biggest man I have ever seen in my life, anywhere, ever.

But yes - Sochi will doubtless be purged of troublemakers before the games, and the place will be screwed down tighter than a tight thing by the Police, not least before of the relative proximity to restive areas in Stavropol'skii Krai and the Caucasus.
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AeroWesty
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:20 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):
So then the SWAT team arrives - the ones with OMOH on their backs - in the big van. They try to put the gay guy in the big van and you can see the Muscle Men pulling him back out.

Oh man, if some studio doesn't make that into a porno for the Olympics ...
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AeroWesty
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 1:10 pm

And now we have gay Russian neo-nazis.

Bringing homosexuality to the Neo-Nazi world

Catch their logo!
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:57 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 53):
And now we have gay Russian neo-nazis.

Bringing homosexuality to the Neo-Nazi world

Wow. That was a completely ridiculous article! Thank you for that!
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AeroWesty
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:14 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 54):
That was a completely ridiculous article!

There's no point in hiding that sometimes homosexuals don't always make the best decisions in ideology.

But I guess I understand your point of view a bit, since you often claim there's someone behind almost every corner who's out to get us, it would be somewhat disturbing to read that one of them could be homosexual.
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mariner
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:50 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 55):
But I guess I understand your point of view a bit, since you often claim there's someone behind almost every corner who's out to get us, it would be somewhat disturbing to read that one of them could be homosexual.

But that has long been true, and Larry Craig - remember him? - pops immediately to mind, as one of the sillier, but still dangerous, examples. The American Conservative Union gave him a score of 96 out of 100 for his voting record, a lot of it anti-gay.

In Britain, back in the bad old days, it became almost the norm that the loudest anti-gay politicians would eventually be found in a compromising situation - with their trousers down diddling a guardsman, or, as one claimed, "badger watching" at dawn in a local park in the company of a male stranger.

I assume the same to be true in Russia. I don't see a homo behind every piece of gay legislation, but where there is smoke there is usually at least some fire and gay sex is as rampant there as anywhere, following similar patterns. Male rape is as common in Russian prisons as in the US.

Back in the Communist days, there was a notorious public toilet near Red Square, filled after dark with what someone described as "questing Slavs" (it may still be active) and the queer spy, Guy Burgess, lived openly with his Russian lover after he defected, despite its illegality under Stalin.

Yet under Stalin, the charge of "gay" was used, rightly or wrongly, to purge many politicians, and while some of those may have been fabrications it is unlikely that all of them were.

Such an atmosphere can produce, or encourage, self-hatred, which is a powerful anti-gay weapon and I have little doubt that some of the Musclemen in the video have been - at very least - gay for pay.

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AeroWesty
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:02 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 56):
But that has long been true, and Larry Craig - remember him? - pops immediately to mind, as one of the sillier, but still dangerous, examples.

Of course I remember Sen. Craig. It doesn't answer why the article would be ridiculous, though.
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luckyone
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:02 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 56):
Male rape is as common in Russian prisons as in the US.

How much of that actually has to do with homosexual orientation? That is a tactic used to instill dominance and establish the alpha dog in prison dynamics.
 
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mariner
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 57):
f course I remember Sen. Craig. It doesn't answer why the article would be ridiculous, though.

Much as I disagree with the philosophy, I don't think it is ridiculous that there should be queers with weird ideas about race and sex.

I don't think being gay automatically grants you wisdom, or even sense.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 58):
How much of that actually has to do with homosexual orientation? That is a tactic used to instill dominance and establish the alpha dog in prison dynamics.

A lot of it is not homosexual orientation, some is dominance and some is simply female substitution, as it is in the Middle East. Some of it is uniquely bisexual, a bonding ritual for survival, strength in numbers, or just companionship in a loveless environment.

The point is only that - within my experience - human behaviour doesn't change and that in any repressive society, some gays are likely to be self-haters, and if they are in a position of some power that can be dangerous.

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-04 14:19:04]
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:35 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 59):
I don't think being gay automatically grants you wisdom, or even sense.

I like the way you put that.   That's one of the reasons why I posted the article. I don't believe the LGBT community should be afraid to expose those who haven't been granted much wisdom. We are who we are, warts and all.
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:38 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 55):
But I guess I understand your point of view a bit, since you often claim there's someone behind almost every corner who's out to get us, it would be somewhat disturbing to read that one of them could be homosexual.

I just am always stunned at minorities who have been abused for being minorities who then respond by becoming abusive to other minorities. You didn't like it when it happened to you, so why are you doing it to someone else?

But yes, these are some very confused skinheads.

Quoting mariner (Reply 59):
Much as I disagree with the philosophy, I don't think it is ridiculous that there should be queers with weird ideas about race and sex.

It's true. Lord knows there are Jews who would love to lock all the Arabs up in death camps and exterminate the lot of them. Again, I can only judge such a stunning lack of empathy to be a form of psychopathology.

Quoting mariner (Reply 59):
some gays are likely to be self-haters, and if they are in a position of some power that can be dangerous.

Another psychopathology that mystifies me. But it proves a point for those who want us: "back in the closet" but "have no problem with us, but just disagree..." If you are living in the closet, the only way you have to satisfy your sexual urges (and we all have such urges) is illicitly, which involves a lot of risky and often self-destructive behavior. Notice how no openly-gay politician ever gets caught in a sex scandal? Why do they need a sex scandal? They're openly gay. They're adults. They're probably having sex. It's most probably gay sex. No scandal! No need for self-destructive behavior.

The closet is a dark and dangerous place for gays. I've been there. It involves living a lie and that really takes a toll on someone.
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luckyone
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:45 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 61):
Another psychopathology that mystifies me.

That is almost a redundant statement.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 60):
Quoting mariner (Reply 59):
I don't think being gay automatically grants you wisdom, or even sense.

I like the way you put that. That's one of the reasons why I posted the article. I don't believe the LGBT community should be afraid to expose those who haven't been granted much wisdom. We are who we are, warts and all.

True story. We cannot claim to be just normal people if we insist on being recognized as otherwise. And like everybody else, gays are not a homogenous group. There are subsets of gays with personalities and interests that annoy the living daylights out of me, just like any other group.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:49 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 61):
You didn't like it when it happened to you, so why are you doing it to someone else?

If you could help me out by quoting where you feel I was abusive towards those mentioned in the article, it'd help me understand your position better.
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DocLightning
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:54 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 63):
If you could help me out by quoting where you feel I was abusive towards those mentioned in the article, it'd help me understand your position better.

I apologize for the confusion. I was rhetorically addressing them, not you.

[Edited 2013-08-04 15:15:38]
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mariner
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:47 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 61):
I just am always stunned at minorities who have been abused for being minorities who then respond by becoming abusive to other minorities.

In part, it is because (for some) there will always be a need for someone else to be lower on the totem pole.

I am not equating being gay with the abomination of slavery, but the most cruel towards slaves were not always the massa's, many of whom tended to regard their slaves as valuable livestock, but the crackers, the poor white trash, who had to blame someone else for their own condition. And when the massa's did assert themselves, it was to prove their power, their authority, not just to show their cruelty, however cruel it was.

As above, the Alpha male who rapes in prison - emasculating another man - is not doing it to indulge his queerness, but to assert his power, his own masculinity.

It is a not-uncommon syndrome among some gay men - that they are more masculine, not less, and the way to prove it is to beat up on other, weaker gays.

Ernst Röhm, the leader of the SA in (pre-war) Nazi Germany, was flagrantly and rampantly queer, as were several of his subordinate officers, but his Storm Troopers regularly beat up gays (especially femmes) to prove their own masculinity, their strength and power as "men."

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-04 16:00:47]
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AeroWesty
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:52 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 61):
Notice how no openly-gay politician ever gets caught in a sex scandal? Why do they need a sex scandal? They're openly gay. They're adults. They're probably having sex. It's most probably gay sex. No scandal! No need for self-destructive behavior.

Something I forgot to copy over in my previous post ... I believe this is a result of a combination of a low head count of openly gay politicians, combined with a very short history we have for publicly dedicated commitments, plus an acceptance in many parts of queer society for multiple partners.

I know of many gay boyfriend or girlfriend situations which have broken up due to either of the parties wandering. Even going way back, the first boyfriend of one of my best friends in high school came onto me after the two of them had declared themselves committed to each other long before there was even a formal route to civil partnerships.

As luckyone said, we're just normal people. Normal people wander outside of their relationships for one reason or another. It will only be time before an openly gay politician or public figure will be involved in a sex scandal of one type or another.
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luckyone
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:03 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 65):
I am not equating being gay with the abomination of slavery, but the most cruel towards slaves were not always the massa's, many of whom tended to regard their slaves as valuable livestock, but the crackers, the poor white trash, who had to blame someone else for their own condition. And when the massa's did assert themselves, it was to prove their power, their authority, not just to show their cruelty, however cruel it was.

Some of the most cruel treatment toward slaves could come from other slaves. There's a reason blacks aren't fond of the term house slave or Uncle Tom, especially coming from another black.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 66):
Something I forgot to copy over in my previous post ... I believe this is a result of a combination of a low head count of openly gay politicians, combined with a very short history we have for publicly dedicated commitments, plus an acceptance in many parts of queer society for multiple partners.

I would like to add that the few gay politicians are probably hyper-aware of how easy that would be for the evangelists to screech about, and as such are VERY careful and are as such hyper-vigilant about their behavior.
 
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:31 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 47):
This link provides a translation of what was said during the violence, including the long rant in the second half by one of the soldiers:

http://www.animalnewyork.com/2013/dr...lice/

I concur with most here and find the new Russian law very sad on several levels.
As we see in many countries right now with stagnant economies and domestic problems the central governments find a "boogey man" to distract the public or deflect blame. Unless North America and/or Europe boycotts as a block it will just be symbolic. worthy, but symbolic.

To really sidetrack, with no offence entended but I am learning here:
Is that a Ford police car in that video? In Russia?
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:34 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 66):
Something I forgot to copy over in my previous post ... I believe this is a result of a combination of a low head count of openly gay politicians, combined with a very short history we have for publicly dedicated commitments, plus an acceptance in many parts of queer society for multiple partners.

We gays are more tolerant of alternative relationship rules and definitions (monogamous, swinger, poly, etc. etc. etc), but I submit that any extramarital relationship on the part of a gay politician, whether consensual with his/her spouse or not, will cause a clamor, just as it would for a straight one. Politicians are supposed to be saints in this country (just stating a fact, not stating that I support this attitude).

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 66):
It will only be time before an openly gay politician or public figure will be involved in a sex scandal of one type or another.

It will, but I think it will be a long time. For now, as a gay man, I feel a certain pressure to be a model citizen. I feel a certain pressure for my marriage to be a model marriage. For some time, I think that gay men who choose to go into politics are going to play it on the straight and narrow (if you'll pardon the play on words).
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AeroWesty
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:45 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 69):
For now, as a gay man, I feel a certain pressure to be a model citizen.

Why on earth? You're a normal person. Just act like a normal gay person does. No pretenses, no looking over one's shoulders to see what people are saying.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 69):
I feel a certain pressure for my marriage to be a model marriage.

I really hope you change your mind. You're setting yourself and your partner up for unreasonable expectations, along with setting an example for others who then feel they need to live up to some false value, and doubt their capabilities if they can't. We have the same hopes, desires, successes and failures as the rest of the population. We aren't special or above that, and should never make ourselves out to be in words or actions.
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ltbewr
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:32 am

Besides the athletes and the team members, you have family and other supporters of them, members of the IOC and other regulators' staffs, the media staffs from around the world who will include GLTB's and may fear any attack or arrest for what would be a relatively innocent expression of their gender preference or status in their home countries. They may choose to stay home out of that well founded fear not supporting their family member, friend, countryperson, team staff member declining to go, media staff declining an assignment and it's money and opportunity

Over the weekend a story came out that 2 well know music performers that support GLTB rights and have expressed that in recent concerts in Russia, Lady Gaga and Madonna, will not be welcome in Russia in the future due to this rule against 'propaganda' in support of GLTB's.

There is no doubt this decision by Russia is a sad one, but as the IOC has demonstrated in the past, they will take away medals and disqualify those that do political protests during the games rather than support the universal rights of freedom of speech and protest to appease the host countries and to prevent potential abuses of the media attention of the games.
 
RussianJet
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:44 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 71):
but as the IOC has demonstrated in the past, they will take away medals and disqualify those that do political protests during the games rather than support the universal rights of freedom of speech and protest to appease the host countries and to prevent potential abuses of the media attention of the games.

I don't think it should be looked at as appeasing the host country necessarily. The principle of the games being apolitical is a very important one, and one I believe worthy of upholding. Of course, if the games are directly affected by a host country's actions (mass athlete, family or spectator arrests for example) then that would be another question, but so long as nobody is arrested simply for being themselves we should keep the games for sport, not political purposes. There is a certain amount of common sense required on all sides here, and I just hope that nobody makes it their business to go 'testing' the situation deliberately. One can disagree with the Russian laws without deliberately setting out to break them to make a political point during the games. There have always been compromises with local laws and customs when it comes to major sporting events like these.
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kiwiinoz
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:16 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 2):
The IOC if it had any guts would move the Olympics now to any one of the dozen or so countries already well equipped to host them. Of course they will not because the thing is about deals and bucks.


An open letter from Stephen Fry on the subject:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/step...tm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

OK ist a bit verbosse, (it is Stephen Fry after all), but the premise is spot on, in my opinion.

In particular, the greatest hypocrisy is the discussion around the safety of gay athletes, as if that makes it all OK. The Olympic movement is meant to represent a lot more that just the sports and it's competitors.
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:34 am

Another solution has been proposed... Ban Russia from the games. Apparently this has precedent, and would send the message to lay Russians that they might otherwise ignore/be unaffected by (Ie Boycotts)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cyd-ze...own-winter-olympics_b_3720026.html
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:02 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 72):
The principle of the games being apolitical is a very important one, and one I believe worthy of upholding.

I think that after 1936, basic human rights are not to be considered "politics." Pogroms are not "local laws and customs." They are violence. It is not just the laws that are at issue here.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 70):
I really hope you change your mind.

I can't because it's not my decision to make. I may feel these pressures, and I can't do anything about that. But... I can live my life honestly and be who I am to myself and to my husband. That's the best I can do and que será será. I think you're misunderstanding me, though.

I feel the pressure. I am not, however, responding to it by putting on a show.
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Doona
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:29 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 73):
n particular, the greatest hypocrisy is the discussion around the safety of gay athletes, as if that makes it all OK.

Just the fact that there's a discussion on the safety of some of the athletes shows how messed up this whole event is.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 72):
The principle of the games being apolitical is a very important one, and one I believe worthy of upholding.

I agree. But so are the principles of human rights. And that should matter as much, if not more, to the IOC.

I'll say this, if I were an athlete and I qualified for these games, I wouldn't go. And not necessarily to prove a point, but rather for my own safety. They can guarantee it as much as they want, but in a country with rampant neo-nazis and gay-hating cops, I'm taking those guarantees with a grain of salt.

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L410Turbolet
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:43 am

I certainly enjoyed the two minutes or so of the Putin Propaganda Network aka Russia Today getting owned:

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...-trolls-russia-today-anti-gay-laws

Finally someone had the cojones to tell the western journalists-useful idiots who make up considerable portion of the RT staff what they really are.
 
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:18 pm

This is a fairly scorching article:

http://americablog.com/2013/08/bloom...cdonalds-russian-anti-gay-law.html

"Coke, Visa, McDonald’s blasted for sponsoring “officially anti-gay Olympics”

As of this past Friday, it is now a violation of Russian anti-terrorism laws to stage any kind of pro-gay protest, or even to simply hold a pro-gay meeting, in the Olympic town of Sochi. That may likely mean that New Zealand speed skater Blake Skjellerup, who has vowed to wear a rainbow pin during his Olympic competition, will be committing an act of terrorism by simply being proud of who he is.

Enough is enough. I have to admit I was somewhat ambivalent about going after the Olympic sponsors as, to date, I hadn’t felt there was enough of a direct connection between the Olympics themselves and Russia’s horrific threats against those attending the Sochi games. Last Friday, that all changed.

Oh but it gets better. As Bloomberg notes, the IOC has now puts its imprimatur on Russia’s anti-terrorist version of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” suggesting, incredibly, that laws banning any positive mention of the word “gay” are non-discriminatory so long as the bigoted law is applied equally against gay and straight Olympic athletes.

Get it? Russia is indiscriminate in applying its discriminatory law, so according to the IOC it’s not really discrimination.

Coke, Visa and McDonald’s are now complicit in Russia’s de facto declaration that gay and lesbian Olympians are terrorists. Thanks to the IOC, this is no longer Vladimir Putin’s war against the human rights of gay and trans people. It is now the International Olympic Committee’s, as well as any company that sponsors this hate."


Sources are linked within the article.

mariner
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DocLightning
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:14 am

I am far more worried about what will happen after Sochi.

Mr. Putin dares not pass more anti-gay laws. He knows that if he does, the Games will be moved.

But as soon as the games are over, I predict mass round-ups of all sorts of "undesirables."
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ltbewr
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RE: What Happens Now With Lgtb Population In Russia?

Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:09 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 78):
Coke, Visa and McDonald’s are now complicit in Russia’s de facto declaration that gay and lesbian Olympians are terrorists. Thanks to the IOC, this is no longer Vladimir Putin’s war against the human rights of gay and trans people. It is now the International Olympic Committee’s, as well as any company that sponsors this hate."

Perhaps what should happen would be for people around the world who care about GLTB rights and freedoms to boycott , write e-mails to and protest at the headquarters offices of Visa, McD's, Coke, Nike and other 'official' international and national sponsors of teams and of the IOC in the USA and elsewhere. In USA, protest against NBC the broadcaster of the Olympics here. Make them all feel uncomfortable about being involved with such hatred.

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Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos