bookishaviator
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Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:53 am

It's official - Australia goes to the polls on September 7 to decide who will lead the country for the next 3 years.

I'm so tired of the faux-campaign of the last 12 months (or has it been 3 years?) that I find myself struggling to muster up the motivation to scrutinise the policy platforms of each party as we know them so far.

So what's important to you at this election? What will steer your vote on September 7?

Anyway, Bob Katter for PM!   
When I die, when I die, I'll rot. But when I live, when I live, I'll give it all I've got.
 
wunala
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:13 am

Quoting bookishaviator (Thread starter):
What will steer your vote on September 7?

Australia Post. I'm having to go postal this year.
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:29 am

Quoting bookishaviator (Thread starter):
Bob Katter for PM!

I'm going to be in Innisfail for the second half of August (and probably first week of September), so I suspect I am going to have to get quite used to seeing this...

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
CupraIbiza
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:22 pm

I live in Maribyrnong. It's Bill Shorten's seat and one of the safest in Australia. My vote doesn't count either way.

As far as the senate's concerned. Wikileaks party!!
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:15 pm

Quoting bookishaviator (Thread starter):
I'm so tired of the faux-campaign of the last 12 months (or has it been 3 years?) that I find myself struggling to muster up the motivation to scrutinise the policy platforms

I agree. I'm a politically motivated individual and interned on the US election last year, yet cannot muster any enthusiasm for an election in my own country. Sad.

Anyway, we've only got 5 more weeks of a pompous guy who says nothing of any substance on the one hand, and a sexist who can't string together more than 5 words in a row on the other. Fun times  

I'm politically central, and don't identify with either major party. After a lot of internal wrangling, I have to concede that I will probably vote ALP. I live in a safe Labor seat so it means very little anyway (my best mate is a Liberal, and he is going to research the wackiest, most crazy minor party/independent that he can find, as his vote won't count for anything anyway)

For me it came down to recognising that, for all of their hundreds and hundreds of faults, I do support in principle some of Labor's achievements. I support the carbon tax, even more so now that we are going to a floating price sooner. DisabilityCare and Gonski are fundamentally sound reforms. I personally support the NBN. All of these things have been rushed and poorly implemented policies, but if they could be made to work (efficiently and economically) then I do oppose them being repealed.

Moreover, while being dissatisfied with Labor, I have not be sold on an "alternative" government. Maybe I simply stopped listening after 3 years of "stop the boats" and "toxic tax", but I do note that those are 2 of the 3 policy priorities for the election that Abbott listed today. Maybe I'm too old-school about this, but if he wanted to portray an alternative vision about the future and appear to be a safe pear of hands, then maybe make your first priority explaining how you have a credible plan to negotiate the post-resources economy and raise our lagging productivity, rather than simply parrot the same catch lines you've always used. Instead, a number of Abbott's policies (most notably maternity leave) are, at best, populist, and worse economically reckless.

Oh well, we will all wake up on September 8 regardless of what happens!

[Edited 2013-08-05 06:15:34]
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QFA380
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:53 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
research the wackiest, most crazy minor party/independent that he can find, as his vote won't count for anything anyway)

I think that this is the best way to have your vote actually mean anything. Vote for a minor party whose platform you actually agree with and next time round they'll have more sway when it comes to preferences and lobbying the bigger parties.

I'm a Liberal volunteer but I'll definitely be voting for small Senate candidates. I really struggle to believe in either major party but I consider them the lesser of two evils and it helps with networking potentially powerful people in the future.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:08 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
next time round they'll have more sway when it comes to preferences and lobbying the bigger parties

I hadn't even thought of that as a benefit of voting minor party, but that makes a lot of sense
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Ken777
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:22 pm

We had just moved to PER when Labour won after decades of Liberal government.

They had a very simple campaign theme: "It's Time"

That election taught me that there are limits that a party should stay in power. 8 years is a good run in the US, 12 is pushing it.

I don't know if the Aussies are tired enough of Labour to say It's Time, but believe they might be.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:43 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
I don't know if the Aussies are tired enough of Labour to say It's Time, but believe they might be.

Oh Ken777, I hope you are right, I certainly have.   
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:14 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
Anyway, we've only got 5 more weeks of a pompous guy who says nothing of any substance on the one hand, and a sexist who can't string together more than 5 words in a row on the other. Fun times

I was a Gillard supporter, so I'm screwed either way.  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Kent350787
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:20 pm

Unfortunately both parties raced to the bottom on the , in reality, minor issue of refugees. But given the ongoing lies, lack of policies or anti-fact policies of the Coalition I will be voting for the ALP and Greens.

However, as the anti-fact Coalition has been able to run the Government's achievements down with absolute negativity for the last 3 years, and with News Limited actively campaigning against the government (as policies such as the National Broadband Network threaten the News Limited payTV model) it's going to be a hard fight for the Government.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:54 pm

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 10):
and with News Limited actively campaigning against the government

The current Government is "actively campaigning against" itself IMHO

Policies on the run, time and time again, with the latest and greatest being, another $200 million to the car industry, which should have been closed down years ago. How much money in "assistance" do these companies need, time and time again they have been bailed out of trouble, and for what, only to threaten to fall over again unless the Government of the day helps out with lots of tax payer $$$$$$$$

Well I'm sick of it, if they can't operate successfully, let them go elsewhere !

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 10):
as policies such as the National Broadband Network threaten the News Limited payTV model

Completely different markets, so shouldn't be compared really.

I think the biggest issue with the NBN is there is no real budget, just an open ended treasury cheque book with ALP written on it.  
Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 10):
it's going to be a hard fight for the Government.

But why should it be hard, if they are as good as some make out, then they should romp back into power with a majority in both houses?
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:56 pm

Candidate believes Islam is a country

Is Stephanie Banister Australia's Sarah Palin?

Quote:
When asked if she opposed the Jewish laws of kosher, Ms Banister incorrectly replied: 'Jews aren't under haram. They have their own religion which follows Jesus Christ.'

She added: 'They don't have a tax on it, they just have a certain way of making it, where haram has a tax on the food.'
International Homo of Mystery
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:21 pm

Is there a chance that Rudd, if he wins next election, will follow New Zealand on gay rights?
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 13):
Is there a chance that Rudd, if he wins next election, will follow New Zealand on gay rights?

I'd say no unfortunately, as the chances of him being elected, yet again (worst PM in my living memory) are slim.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:48 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
I'd say no unfortunately, as the chances of him being elected, yet again (worst PM in my living memory) are slim.

You must be quite young.

mariner
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TheCommodore
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:45 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 15):
You must be quite young.

I'm sure you've seen my profile, not that young anymore.

But then again, that very much depends on the age of the person that's asking I guess ?  
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:56 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 16):
But then again, that very much depends on the age of the person that's asking I guess ?  

Sure does. And yes, I checked your profile before posting.  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:47 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 13):
Is there a chance that Rudd, if he wins next election, will follow New Zealand on gay rights?

If Rudd wins then I think he will have to try - although that could be a very half-hearted effort!

The problem is that the issue is too polarising for the ALP to tackle, see how they tied themselves in knots during the last ALP National Conference. While Rudd does have a track record of pissing on his party and announcing policies regardless of what the caucus thinks, I don't think he will do so here. It is an emotional issue, and he has already burned alot of his party room capital over asylum seekers.

I therefore think that he will call another conscience vote. A conscience vote on the issue stands a pretty decent chance of winning a majority, and getting support from across the chamber. The problem is that Tony Abbott is outright opposed to this (he blocked it last time by not allowing Liberal members to vote on conscience grounds) so that if he is Opposition Leader then it won't go anywhere. Of course, in the Liberals lose then he will probably be replaced as leader, and whoever might replace him (potentially Turnball, Hockey, Bishop, Pyne) have all indicated their support for allowing members to vote on conscience grounds.

So in answer to your question, maybe, just maybe. But if Abbott wins it will be off the agenda at least until the next election, and more likely until there is a change of government.
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:35 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
worst PM in my living memory

How did he managed to come back ? I mean from what I have discussed three years ago with an Aussie, Gillard replaced him because there were no chances he could win again. Now three years later he's back.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
I'd say no unfortunately,

That's very unfortunate.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 18):
If Rudd wins then I think he will have to try - although that could be a very half-hearted effort!

That's not very encouraging.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 18):
The problem is that Tony Abbott is outright opposed to this (he blocked it last time by not allowing Liberal members to vote on conscience grounds)

Does he actually know that we live in the 21st century ?
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:50 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 19):
How did he managed to come back ?



That, is a very good question !

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 19):
I mean from what I have discussed three years ago with an Aussie, Gillard replaced him because there were no chances he could win again. Now three years later he's back.

Well,

(1) imagine a bad situation (Rudd)

(2) then imagine a situation that's very bad (Gillard replaces Rudd)

(3)Then imagine a situation that's way beyond bad (Rudd replaces Gillard)

(4) then imagine a situation where the average Labor voter is now so disillusioned with the circus of pass the parcel, they will probably vote Liberal..... and Good on them too !   
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:26 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 19):
worst PM in my living memory

How did he managed to come back ? I mean from what I have discussed three years ago with an Aussie, Gillard replaced him because there were no chances he could win again. Now three years later he's back.

Sorry, I think is a bit of confusion here. Gillard had the worse opinion polling of any PM in living history (quite possibly ever, but that's a big call as there wasn't opinion polling back-in-the-day), and when Rudd was removed he was more popular than Gillard was during most of her time in Government. In hindsight, removing Rudd was the worst idea the ALP ever had. He might have won in 2010 (it isn't a forgone conclusion that he would have lost, whatever anyone might say) and the loss would have been relatively minor, a relatively small number of seats. The ALP could have re-grouped around a new leader, and come back swinging in 2013 (they might not have won this year, but had a good crack). The problem was that Gillard was a truly incompetent, bumbling fool who was about 40 years late in becoming PM. Her union friendly policies simply didn't resonate with the wider public in the second decade of the 2000s. Therefore Rudd is now running with 3 years of accumulated crap stuck to his back! (plus his own shortcomings in the 3 years before that)

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 20):
the average Labor voter is now so disillusioned with the circus of pass the parcel, they will probably vote Liberal

Out of interest how many ALP voters do you know?!? Most my age would vote Green, and the older voters who are too disillusioned will vote minor party (Bullet Train Party should have a decent showing in ACT, for example, which is the reddest, reddest, red part of the country).

That said, many disillusioned ALP will - very reluctantly - vote Labor because they see Abbott as a fate worse than death. You know how the Right detest Obama will blind fury in the United States? That's the Left here when it comes to the Opposition Leader. Almost everyone I know is an ALP voter, most hate the direction that the party has gone in over the last 3 years/2 months - but when you mention Abbott... there is real passion there! Eventually, after having a good rant, they sigh, and admit that they will vote Labor to try and keep him out. Every conversation follows the same script!
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Kent350787
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:57 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 21):
Out of interest how many ALP voters do you know?!? Most my age would vote Green, and the older voters who are too disillusioned will vote minor party (Bullet Train Party should have a decent showing in ACT, for example, which is the reddest, reddest, red part of the country).

My electorate is safe Labor, but would easily go green (and almost did at state level) if the greens:

1. fielded a decent candidate

2. has a more reasoned economic position

Labor has been worse than bad comunicating its rafts of legeislative acheivements, as well as its world leading economic successes. The Coalition has limited positive policies, and even fewer sensibly costed ones, but has been great at opposing the Government - which is different to being considered opposition.

I hope for a Labor win, for the sake of our community, but it's looking increasingly less likely.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sat Aug 10, 2013 5:49 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 21):
Almost everyone I know is an ALP voter, most hate the direction that the party has gone in over the last 3 years/2 months - but when you mention Abbott... there is real passion there! Eventually, after having a good rant, they sigh, and admit that they will vote Labor to try and keep him out.

        

A life long ALP voter & union member here. I now live in a very safe Liberal seat, Tony Abbott's own seat! There is no point in voting ALP so I vote minor party. This year it's the Future Party, the ONLY party with a rational platform in the whole election. I will NOT consider voting Liberal with Tony Abbott as leader! NO WAY.

I MIGHT consider voting Liberal IF Malcolm Turnbull was leader, but the Victorian elites will never allow that!!!

Gemuser
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sat Aug 10, 2013 8:00 am

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 22):
My electorate is safe Labor, but would easily go green (and almost did at state level) if the greens:

1. fielded a decent candidate

2. has a more reasoned economic position

Labor has been worse than bad comunicating its rafts of legeislative acheivements, as well as its world leading economic successes. The Coalition has limited positive policies, and even fewer sensibly costed ones, but has been great at opposing the Government - which is different to being considered opposition.

I hope for a Labor win, for the sake of our community

I agree 100% with everything you say

You could say that I'm a post-Thatcher Labo(u)r supporter. I was born in the UK in 1991, after Thatcher. I therefore grew up in the post-Thatcher Britain, and came of age under the Government of Tony Blair. For all his shortcomings as a populist and spin-merchant, Blair had a legitimate agenda for a post-Thatcher Labour Government: belief in public health and education, but with a strong private sector economy; a free market, but with a strong social safety net to help those who could not help themselves.

As a Gen-Y, this, coupled with progressive social policies, is what resonates with me, and (I believe) most people my age. Unfortunately Gillard did not grasp such an agenda. Her economic policies were pre-Hawke, and she held quite conservative social positions. It is not just because of Rudd's "Obama" appeal that he polls so much better with younger voters than Gillard did, indeed to suggest so is a disservice to young people.

Admittedly I go to ANU, allegedly the most politically active campus in Australia, and located in Canberra, but people I talk to are very much politically aware, and do hold strong political positions. Up until the start of this semester the Greens were going to sweep through here, the momentum seems to have swung towards Labor. As I said upthread, part of thi is the anti-Abbot vote, but there is also a sense that this Labor Government is more aligned to the values of the majority of younger voters.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 23):
I now live in a very safe Liberal seat, Tony Abbott's own seat!

Poor you!

Quoting gemuser (Reply 23):
I MIGHT consider voting Liberal IF Malcolm Turnbull was leader

That's where I'm at as well, but I don't think that will happen again

Quoting gemuser (Reply 23):
A life long ALP voter & union member here

Please understand that I have nothing against the ALP or unions. Anything I say that could come over as otherwise is more of a generational perspective, rather than a right wing anti-union tirade (as I said I'm centrist-leaning-left)  
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QANTAS077
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:11 am

Quoting gemuser (Reply 23):
I MIGHT consider voting Liberal IF Malcolm Turnbull was leader, but the Victorian elites will never allow that!!!

I'm in a safe Labor seat here in Victoria and have no qualms voting for my local member, that said, if Turnbull was leader then it'd be the first time I'd ever vote Liberal. I think Malcolm is a fine leader and quality politician, but Abbott, well how on earth did the Liberal party get stuck with him!

and what makes matters worse is that News Ltd is backing him to the hilt with questions being asked.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
Well I'm sick of it, if they can't operate successfully, let them go elsewhere !

they're not operating..it's caretaker mode so there is not a great deal happening. I will say this though, the 43rd parliament has been the most successful in the history of this great country.

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 10):
Unfortunately both parties raced to the bottom on the , in reality, minor issue of refugees.

it's appalling, the liberals now have a refugee who arrived on a boat actively campaigning against boat arrivals!

and if you want to see just how appalling some of the liberal candidates are then just click on the link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrQPXXHUilU
 
melpax
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:50 pm

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 25):
and if you want to see just how appalling some of the liberal candidates are then just click on the link below.

Oh dear...... Must be a candiate in a safe Labour seat. In need of some serious media training there.

He was right about the cost of living though, there are pensioners & other low income folk who are too afraid to use heaters in winter & air conditioning in summer because of ridicolous gas & electricity prices. Melbourne & Sydney are 2 of the most expensive cities in the world to live in....
Essendon - Whatever it takes......
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:01 pm

Quoting melpax (Reply 26):
Oh dear...... Must be a candiate in a safe Labour seat. In need of some serious media training there.

ALP held by 0.9%..and they come up with this moron!
 
melpax
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:17 pm

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 27):
ALP held by 0.9%..and they come up with this moron!

What the hell were the local Liberal Party branch thinking when this guy made it though pre-selection!

Still Labour can be as bad as well. My seat in outer eastern Melbourne has been Liberal-held since the 80's. Some of the clowns that have run as Labour candiates in opposition.... One of them came around door-knocking, it was though the local Labour party branch went to the Bayswater Pub in desperation & chose one of the regulars to run for the seat!
Essendon - Whatever it takes......
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:04 pm

Quoting melpax (Reply 26):
Oh dear...... Must be a candiate in a safe Labour seat

Nap! One for the taking...

Quoting melpax (Reply 28):
What the hell were the local Liberal Party branch thinking when this guy made it though pre-selection!

Apparently he and his family are the local branch, I'm not sure of all the details but he and his father are some local bigwigs and basically control the entire branch by occassionally flexing their muscles and throwing money around. Tony Abbott seriously considered stepping in and going over the branch's head, but in the end decided against it after the fight in (I think?) Robertson, which ended up in the Supreme Court

Quoting melpax (Reply 26):
He was right about the cost of living though, there are pensioners & other low income folk who are too afraid to use heaters in winter & air conditioning in summer because of ridicolous gas & electricity prices. Melbourne & Sydney are 2 of the most expensive cities in the world to live in

Yes, but the carbon tax has a negligible impact on that
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TheCommodore
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:47 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 21):
Therefore Rudd is now running with 3 years of accumulated crap stuck to his back! (plus his own shortcomings in the 3 years before that)

Time for a change then !

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 22):
I hope for a Labor win, for the sake of our community, but it's looking increasingly less likely.

I can't understand why on earth anybody, and I mean anybody, would want more of the last few years to continue ?

Quoting gemuser (Reply 23):
There is no point in voting ALP so I vote minor party.

Which will probably give them ALL preferences anyway.... so vote Labor

Quoting gemuser (Reply 23):
I will NOT consider voting Liberal with Tony Abbott as leader! NO WAY.

Come on guys....Please remember, we are supposed to vote for the party, not the individual leader !

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 25):
and what makes matters worse is that News Ltd is backing him to the hilt with questions being asked.
Quoting qantas077 (Reply 25):
hey're not operating..it's caretaker mode so there is not a great deal happening. I will say this though, the 43rd parliament has been the most successful in the history of this great country.

Umm, they are operating. Big anti boat people adds are being played right across the country. Blatant electioneering. This should not be happening during the election period

Quoting melpax (Reply 26):
He was right about the cost of living though, there are pensioners & other low income folk who are too afraid to use heaters in winter & air conditioning in summer because of ridicolous gas & electricity prices. Melbourne & Sydney are 2 of the most expensive cities in the world to live in....

With an aging population, increasing every year that trotters by, pensioners will become more reliant on higher interest rates to survive financially. So with the ALP hoping and praying for "lower" interest rates, they are effectively alienating and entire generation (and lots of em) to vote ALP..... Smart move !
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
RussianJet
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:51 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 30):
Come on guys....Please remember, we are supposed to vote for the party, not the individual leader !

Says who? Surely you wouldn't suggest that the leader is of no consequence to the direction and influence of the party you say people should be voting for? You really can't separate the two so completely.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:17 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 31):
Says who?

Because that's the way it should be, and anyone with half a brain, should be acutely aware of this.

Its not some new thing.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ustralian-elections-party-ideology

"I don’t vote for a leader. I vote for the ideology of the party the leader leads."
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
RussianJet
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:40 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 32):
Because that's the way it should be, and anyone with half a brain, should be acutely aware of this.

Excellent, so now we're throwing insults at a different point of view?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 32):
Its not some new thing.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ustralian-elections-party-ideology

"I don’t vote for a leader. I vote for the ideology of the party the leader leads."

Actually, what is pretty obvious these days, is that the concept of blindly following an 'ideology' and voting for it is highly outmoded in many places. Take the so-called Labour party of Great Britain - they have re-invented themselves more times than the wheel, and different leaders have taken them on numerous different paths. What one government did last time they were in charge, the new leadership now completely refutes. What they stood for decades ago, is now completely unrecognisable in the party today. The same goes for the Tories. What actually should be pretty obvious, is that merely voting blindly for a party without more detailed analysis of who will really do what to who and how, is a highly simplistic and ineffective way to approach the question of how to best use a vote. I have a whole brain thanks, and while I'm certainly not swayed simply and solely by who the leader is or isn't, it's a big and highly-relevant consideration. In our country at least, they change direction more frequently than a yacht needs to in the straits of Dover to avoid the traffic. If they don't like the way it's going in the polls, the so-called 'ideology' you see as core is one of the very first things that goes in the bin. Barely a few years back you could hardly get a playing card between the policies of our two main parties, who well within my living memory used to be genuinely diametrically opposed in their policies, and were indeed true to ideologies to a significant extent. That has all changed, because these days the whole game whether we like it or not has become so overwhelmingly driven by personalities.

Having said all of that, if you want to approach the matter as you describe then fine - that's your choice and you're entitled to your view. But - perhaps you could afford others the same privilege of offering a different point of view to your own, without intimating that they're stupid for doing so. Politics is emotive enough without reducing the discussion to that, and the rules of this forum mandate a respect for the views of others even if strongly disagreeing with them.
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Gemuser
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:14 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 30):
Come on guys....Please remember, we are supposed to vote for the party, not the individual leader !

Oh really??? Who says?

Come on, while the leader is not the only important factor in determining how a party will govern, it is certainly a very important one. It can be enough to tip the decision of a voter one way or the other.

Gemuser
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TheCommodore
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:59 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 33):
Excellent, so now we're throwing insults at a different point of view?

No insult intended RussianJet, but Its true. The leader dose not set Party policy by himself. A common misconception made by many, when talking about who'll they vote for in an election. Time and time again, all you hear someone in the street say, oh, I will never vote for such and such, because I don't like this or that about him/her. And at the very same time, completely ignoring what the particular party even standards for..... Amazing.

I only it were that simple !

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 33):
Actually, what is pretty obvious these days, is that the concept of blindly following an 'ideology' and voting for it is highly outmoded in many places. Take the so-called Labour party of Great Britain - they have re-invented themselves more times than the wheel, and different leaders have taken them on numerous different paths. What one government did last time they were in charge, the new leadership now completely refutes. What they stood for decades ago, is now completely unrecognisable in the party today. The same goes for the Tories. What actually should be pretty obvious, is that merely voting blindly for a party without more detailed analysis of who will really do what to who and how, is a highly simplistic and ineffective way to approach the question of how to best use a vote. I have a whole brain thanks, and while I'm certainly not swayed simply and solely by who the leader is or isn't, it's a big and highly-relevant consideration. In our country at least, they change direction more frequently than a yacht needs to in the straits of Dover to avoid the traffic. If they don't like the way it's going in the polls, the so-called 'ideology' you see as core is one of the very first things that goes in the bin. Barely a few years back you could hardly get a playing card between the policies of our two main parties, who well within my living memory used to be genuinely diametrically opposed in their policies, and were indeed true to ideologies to a significant extent. That has all changed, because these days the whole game whether we like it or not has become so overwhelmingly driven by personalities.

I am not blindly following any ideology for any particular party. I happen to think that I am a reasonably educated voter. But I do have some difficulty when I hear people say they will only or not, vote for a particular person and not think more about the Party and what it standards for.Listen to some talk back radio on politics, and you will hear it from nearly every caller. That's all I saying.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 33):
That has all changed, because these days the whole game whether we like it or not has become so overwhelmingly driven by personalities.

Well, you can thank Journalist and news coverage for that to a large degree, and when I say "half a brain", I mean it, because there are many many people out there in voter land, who can only focus on the personalities, and nothing else, and that's why I said what I did.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 34):
Oh really??? Who says?

Come on, while the leader is not the only important factor in determining how a party will govern, it is certainly a very important one.
Gemuser

In a perfect world, but at the end of the day, aren't we all told (most recently by the Labor party themselves...) that the "party" is always bigger than the Leader

Quoting gemuser (Reply 34):
It can be enough to tip the decision of a voter one way or the other.

It can, but it really shouldn't.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sun Aug 11, 2013 4:47 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):

You are right when you say that the party leader does not set the policy all by him/her self. The upper echelons of the party will generally determine policy but in office it will often be the leader who decides on specific action in response to events. Interestingly enough, one repeated complaint from within the parliamentary Liberal Party itself has been that Abbott makes up policy on the run and without consultation. Small wonder that some of their candidates have difficulty in enumerating party policy. And if the candidates themselves have difficulty in knowing where the party stands, can the wider electorate be blamed?

It is also no surprise that many people say they won't vote for a party because they dislike the leader. In earlier days in campaigning parties would stress the party and what it stood for. From the eighties onward there was a move to what the media called a "presidential style". Increasing importance was placed on the leader and the leader's characteristics and less on politicy differences. Party conferences transformed from avenues where party policy could be debated into cheer sessions for the leadership. Not surprisingly, in many people's minds the leader is the party. And let us not forget that the party chooses its leader as being the most perfect embodiment of what they stand for or in the belief he or she is best able to lead to electoral success. I doubt Abbott was chosen because the party thinks he looks cute in budgie smugglers, but I am ready to concede that I could be wrong.  
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Gemuser
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:36 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):
Quoting gemuser (Reply 34):
It can be enough to tip the decision of a voter one way or the other.

It can, but it really shouldn't.

Why not?
It is a reasonable factor in determining who you will vote for, as AyostolLeon says "it is often the leader who decides on specific action in response to events", that makes it a reasonable factor to consider.

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QANTAS077
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:03 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 30):
I can't understand why on earth anybody, and I mean anybody, would want more of the last few years to continue ?

because it's been successful parliament?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 30):
Umm, they are operating. Big anti boat people adds are being played right across the country. Blatant electioneering. This should not be happening during the election period

Lol, and if you hadn't heard it from Tony or Scott you'd be on here mentioning it? I don't think so...
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:14 am

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 36):
one repeated complaint from within the parliamentary Liberal Party itself has been that Abbott makes up policy on the run and without consultation.

AyostolLeon, I am not sure where you are currently situated and I realize that Libya is a long way from Australia, but you truly have that facts around the wrong way, Kevin Rudd is/was the one accused for making decisions on the run without consulting his ministers, that's why he was booted out the last time and pissed off some many.

Rudd was/is a control freak, he micro managed to the point of obsession, he expected his staff to be available at a moments notice, even in the middle of the night, because he suffers from insomnia. The list goes on and on.

There is plenty on the net to back that fact up.

I haven't heard that said about Abbott, but will stand corrected if you can provide a link etc...

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 36):
Not surprisingly, in many people's minds the leader is the party

Well then, In my opinion, they need to take a deep breath and dig a little deeper into things.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 36):
I doubt Abbott was chosen because the party thinks he looks cute in budgie smugglers, but I am ready to concede that I could be wrong.

Geeeee, lets not go there!

Quoting gemuser (Reply 37):
It is a reasonable factor in determining who you will vote for, as AyostolLeon says "it is often the leader who decides on specific action in response to events", that makes it a reasonable factor to consider.

Sure its a factor, but it shouldn't be the only deciding factor, not even a major factor, there is so very much more to it I think.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 38):
because it's been successful parliament?

That is very much a debatable issue !

Success in passing legislation through the parliament, but wasting enormous amounts of money and plenty of poor policies, (now even admitted too by Government ministers, but why mention that !) have also taken a toll, wouldn't you agree ?

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 38):
Lol, and if you hadn't heard it from Tony or Scott you'd be on here mentioning it? I don't think so...

And that's what the opposition is supposed to do isn't it, bring "irregularities" to public attention ?
Its mighty convenient for the Government to be doing this now, when they should have done it 5 years ago, not not.

Are you going to tell me, Rudd's cronies wouldn't have done the same thing.............

[Edited 2013-08-11 00:15:57]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:24 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 39):

At present I am in the federal division of Hasluck with Ken Wyatt (Lib) the sitting member.

Both have Rudd and Abbott have done so. Remember that the position of the Liberal Party was to oppose the increase in the Superannuation Guarantee until Abbott responded to a report in the Herald and announced a back flip? To protests from his party colleagues he stated that the party council has the final say on everything but not everything went to the party council. As requested, a link but there are many more.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/abbot...ion-leadership-20111122-1nsvw.html

Remember Abbott's own admission that the only thing that he could be held to is what was in writing? When the bill dealing with political finance came up he gave a written guarantee that the Liberal Party would support it. The very next day he did a back flip to the amazement of some of his colleagues. This shows that even when something is in writing it is still no guarantee.

In many ways Abbott and Rudd epitomise politics today. Neither leader has any real convictions. They don't follow any idealogy or have any broad view of where Australia should be heading and how to get there. Rather they are both pragmatists for whom holding office is important but what you do with it is less so. Hence their reacting to events rather than shaping them.

So what are we left with? Each party tries to show that it is tougher on people arriving by boat, each tries to buy more votes by outbidding the other with promises to fund this, that or whatever else while at the same time pretending to be fiscally responsible.
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GDB
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:11 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 33):
Barely a few years back you could hardly get a playing card between the policies of our two main parties, who well within my living memory used to be genuinely diametrically opposed in their policies, and were indeed true to ideologies to a significant extent. That has all changed, because these days the whole game whether we like it or not has become so overwhelmingly driven by personalities.

When Labour, in opposition in the early/mid 80's went way left, they were slaughtered at the polls. I bet Maggie could not believe her luck.
When the Tories pulled further to the right after 1997, same happened to them. The cause of which was in part the negative influence of an embittered Thatcher and her acolytes.

They have to adjust to the times, Blair was perfect for Labour in the ideology free 1990's, post Cold War the lessening on ideology was replicated across much of the Western World.

Cameron played the ideology light card too in opposition though the mask has slipped somewhat in government.

The biggest ideological shift in modern UK politics is often cited as Blair's 'New Labour' and it's acceptance of much of the Thatcher reforms, but it happened before in a less media soaked age when 'rebranding' was not a term that existed.
When the Tories won (with over 200,000 less votes than Labour) in 1951, they completely accepted the major social and most of the economic changes of the Attlee government.
The NHS (which they'd strongly opposed), the welfare reforms and even much of the nationalisations.

In the late 50's and early 60's many commentators remarked on how close Labour and Conservative parties were on most issues, Wilson ran in 1964 not on any idealogical banner but as a more effective manager than those dusty old Tory aristocrats.
This endured until the mid 70's when the economic picture - worldwide - darkened from 1973.
Both Tory and Labour governments both struggled to adapt and this led those on the right of the Tories, the left of Labour, to gain more influence after years of being marginalised,

Now? Since the mid 70's the numbers of those as members of political parties has collapsed, the close results of the two 1974 elections were a warning sign, even the big Thatcher and Blair majorities were not reflected in the actual share of the vote, rather a odd way our first past the post system works sometimes - John Major with a mere 21 seat majority in 1992 did way better in numbers of votes cast and the share of it than Maggie ever did.

Which both major parties entrenched in their heartlands more than ever now, we are headed for a period of I think, of coalitions.

Back on topic, the crazy politics of Australia, with the whole Rudd, Rudd sacked by Gilllard, Gillard sacked by Rudd after several attempts, would make an Australian version of the wonderful UK political satire 'The Thick Of It', a sight to behold.
Imagine an Aussie 'Malcolm Tucker'!
The show's creator has done US politics in the often very good 'Veep', he should go down under for his next project.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:24 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 35):
but Its true. The leader dose not set Party policy by himself.

Well, I'm no expert in Aussie politics, but here at least the leader has a huge influence - and it's a matter of obvious fact and record that they've taken the traditional parties in all sorts of random directions in the last couple of decades. It's not just media portrayal, but actually how it works here, that the leader of a party (particularly if powerful) has significant influence on policy. I wouldn't say that it's the be all and end all, but especiallywhen you look at the likes of Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair (fairly extreme examples), it's undeniably true that leaders are able to dominate the party, rather than the other way around. At the very least, what that means is that *all* things must be considered, including leadership.
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:28 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 32):
Because that's the way it should be

The majority of voters don't read through the fine print, rather they choose predominantly or wholly on the basis of the leader. We might decry the "presidentialization" of parliamentary politics, but it is happening and there is nothing you can do about it.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 32):
I vote for the ideology of the party the leader leads

So the party which will tax corporations (during a stagnant economy, no less) in order to provide the sort of social policy that only The Greens support? That sort of ideology?

Quoting gemuser (Reply 34):
Come on, while the leader is not the only important factor in determining how a party will govern, it is certainly a very important one

  

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 42):
The leader dose not set Party policy by himself.

Well, I'm no expert in Aussie politics, but here at least the leader has a huge influence

I'm sorry but this is an idea from another age. I support parliamentary government in principle, but you have to recognise that times have changed. In the past half-century, and accelerating in the last decade, the Prime Minister has gone from being the "chairman of the board", to "president". They are now the figure through which the party exists in the minds of ordinary voters.

And yes, the leader increasingly creates policy in their own image. Cabinet - on both side - is increasingly a legitimising forum rather than a body where people have meaningful debate. The leader doesn't "set" policy, but they are front and centre in determining which direction it goes in.
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RussianJet
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:07 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 43):
I'm sorry but this is an idea from another age. I support parliamentary government in principle, but you have to recognise that times have changed. In the past half-century, and accelerating in the last decade, the Prime Minister has gone from being the "chairman of the board", to "president". They are now the figure through which the party exists in the minds of ordinary voters.

And yes, the leader increasingly creates policy in their own image. Cabinet - on both side - is increasingly a legitimising forum rather than a body where people have meaningful debate. The leader doesn't "set" policy, but they are front and centre in determining which direction it goes in.

I was pretty clear earlier in stating that I understand that leaders don't decide all, but that they do have significant influence and are a considerable factor in weighing up where to cast your vote - but NOT the only one. Or have I misunderstood your comment?
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:27 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):

Oh god, sorry! I was directing that at The Commodore, but I see that I quoted you in instead. I'm really sorry about that!
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RussianJet
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:29 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 45):
Oh god, sorry! I was directing that at The Commodore, but I see that I quoted you in instead. I'm really sorry about that! 

No problem at all - grateful for the clarification. Just confused me momentarily.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:57 am

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 40):
Remember Abbott's own admission that the only thing that he could be held to is what was in writing?

All leaders, on both sides of Politics, make all sorts of claims to do this, that and the other, during election time, they always have and will I guess......Remember LAW ?
And the list goes on and on, for both sides, over the years.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 40):
So what are we left with?

We will have to wait and see on the big day, I think it could be another close one.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 40):
In many ways Abbott and Rudd epitomise politics today. Neither leader has any real convictions. They don't follow any idealogy or have any broad view of where Australia should be heading and how to get there. Rather they are both pragmatists for whom holding office is important but what you do with it is less so. Hence their reacting to events rather than shaping them.

Absolutely agree with you there.
It is a great tragedy that our future leaders (or should I say Political parties have no long term aims), like the building of the Snowy Mountains scheme, Sydney Harbour Bridge etc...
Its all just for the short term to hold on to office.
But, And I don't want to start to feel sorry for any politician, but in away, its the constituents, another words, us, that have then caused this shift from years ago, where our Pollies had "vission"

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 42):
At the very least, what that means is that *all* things must be considered, including leadership.
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):
Or have I misunderstood your comment?

You are right. And in retrospect I should have been clearer earlier on, when I said we should not vote for the leader so much, but for the party, yes the leader is a factor in deciding, but by no means the beeee all and end all, when casting your vote.

As I said in an earlier post though, I think most people tend to put to much emphasis on the personality side, and not really enough on the actual policy department.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
RussianJet
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:06 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 47):
in retrospect I should have been clearer earlier on, when I said we should not vote for the leader so much, but for the party, yes the leader is a factor in deciding, but by no means the beeee all and end all, when casting your vote.

As I said in an earlier post though, I think most people tend to put to much emphasis on the personality side, and not really enough on the actual policy department

I'm glad to see that we've reached a sensible, middle ground here. Always nice to see that patient, constructive debate can result in better understanding.   
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Gemuser
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:30 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 43):
I support parliamentary government in principle, but you have to recognise that times have changed. In the past half-century, and accelerating in the last decade, the Prime Minister has gone from being the "chairman of the board", to "president". They are now the figure through which the party exists in the minds of ordinary voters.

        

Indeed many ordinary Australian wish we had a US Presidential system. I am not one of them, because we lack the checks & balances the US system has. Even if we had them it would still suffer the problems they are having now, that is without a good measure of bi-partisanship the whole legislative system grinds to a halt.

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