bookishaviator
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:59 am

What a horribly uninspiring debate from Rudd and Abbott last night - so passionless. Ugh. And Rudd's response to the Sydney Airport question was cringeworthy.

I don't know if they're just bad orators or whether they were deliberately keeping it beige (or both), but it left me feeling empty!
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:38 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 47):
It is a great tragedy that our future leaders (or should I say Political parties have no long term aims), like the building of the Snowy Mountains scheme, Sydney Harbour Bridge etc...
Its all just for the short term to hold on to office

I agree that there is a woeful lack of bold policy vision on both sides. That is very concerning. The resources boom is tapering off, the non-mining economy is stagnant if not slowing, our productivity is going backwards, FTAs with China, ASEAN and ors now seem further away than they did at the last election....

The coming decade could fundamentally shift Australia's economy and interaction with the rest of the world, as we transition away from the resources-oriented economy and cement relationships with our region. If anything, Paul Keating was 2 decades too early!

The current leaders, however, have no vision for how we are going to manage these challenges and seize these possibilities. Policy, at best, tinkers at the edges. This is very disheartening. The last election was like this and ended in a stalemate. The best polling out there (which considers swings seat-by-seat) says that we are heading to another stalemate: NAT will pick up Oakshott and Windsor, everything else will be as-is. I would question the veracity of this as it presumes that preference flows will be the same as the last election, instead I could see ALP picking up Melbourne from GRN and Brisbane from LNP due to different preference flows. The point stands, though: we are most likely going to end up with a hung parliament.

The strange thing is that I don't think that the parties have realised why: people are sick and tired of it all. There are a lot of people in the community that hate Abbott and there are a lot of people that hate Labor. We need shock therapy, not a new leader! Neither Abbott nor Rudd can deliver the "shock" because they have both been part of the stagnant, stinking mess that has been Australian politics over the past 3-4 years. Fresh blood alone won't deliver the "shock", Gillard and now Rudd-2 have shown that. Instead we need somebody with (a) policy integrity, and (b) policy vision - preferably both. I think that is part of the reason why a lot of people, including a lot of Labor voters, yearn for Turnball in a way they never (really) did for Rudd: a lot of people recognise Turnball as a man of integrity, and one who stuck by his policy beliefs in the face of a hostile caucus, and ultimately lost. I hate to say it, but neither Rudd nor Abbott would not do the same. If the demons were at the gate both would perform some acrobatic tricks and back-track on policy.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 47):
And I don't want to start to feel sorry for any politician, but in away, its the constituents, another words, us, that have then caused this shift from years ago, where our Pollies had "vission"

Yes and no. The majority of people don't follow politics as closely as we do. That is their choice, it's not necessarily good for democracy, but it is what it is. Because most of us don't watch Question Time live from Parliament House, we rely on the media for our "news".

This is where things went off the boil. Like most good things in life, we can thank the USA for this. The launch of CNN is widely regarded as the beginning of the end of quality politics. Why? "News" went from being something you read about once a day in the newspaper, or watched for 30 minutes at tea time, to being a 24/7 phenomena. The internet, and now social media, have reinforced this. When everyone wants news now, then you have to create enough crap to fill a day. That's when things get pear-shaped. Soundbites become the norm, no policy can be longer than 30 seconds long, if you say anything off script then the opposing party will beat your mercilessly for it, and the network will run it because they need to fill the time.......

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 30):
I can't understand why on earth anybody, and I mean anybody, would want more of the last few years to continue

This is where I went sour and anti-Abbott: he is a big part of the last 3 years. Gillard was a fool, but the negativity and soundbite policies ("stop the boats, "stop the tax" etc) was Abbott.

Rudd isn't much better, but he is a change.
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:31 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 18):
If Rudd wins then I think he will have to try - although that could be a very half-hearted effort!

I've heard on ABC that during last night's "debate" Rudd announced he would introduce a bill to legalize same sex marriage during the first 100 days of his government if he was elected. I won't hold my breath but who knows.

[Edited 2013-08-12 13:32:21]
 
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:52 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 52):
I've heard on ABC that during last night's "debate" Rudd announced he would introduce a bill to legalize same sex marriage during the first 100 days of his government if he was elected. I won't hold my breath but who knows.

Oh he will introduce it, but if it passes is another matter entirely.

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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:48 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 51):
Gillard was a fool, but the negativity and soundbite policies ("stop the boats, "stop the tax" etc) was Abbott.

Ms. Gillard was many things - and perhaps too beholden to the factions - but she was not a fool.

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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:31 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 51):
I agree that there is a woeful lack of bold policy vision on both sides. That is very concerning.

On the whole I agree with your summation of the current predicament, however there are a few points of difference.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 51):
The coming decade could fundamentally shift Australia's economy and interaction with the rest of the world, as we transition away from the resources-oriented economy and cement relationships with our region.

I am a little more positive on the resource side of things, and I think that any relationship we have with our neighbors, will be "cemented" by what we have to offer. We are extremely fortunate that we are living where all the action will be over the next decades. Asia, being the fastest growing region in the world, (although maybe somewhat slower than previously forecast) is going to want a lot of what we have in the ground, this will not stop IMHO, and as i said, slow down perhaps, but it will remain positive for the Australian economy overall.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 51):

This is where things went off the boil. Like most good things in life, we can thank the USA for this.

Yes !
And there are many out there in voterland, who would love us to adopt a more US style of Politics... Yikes, and as you pointed out above, what we have already is bad enough without going down that track thank you very much.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 51):
This is where I went sour and anti-Abbott: he is a big part of the last 3 years. Gillard was a fool, but the negativity and soundbite policies ("stop the boats, "stop the tax" etc) was Abbott.

Abbott is by NO means perfect, but opposition party's, both Liberal/Green, get very little "airtime" on the box as it were, and in many cases only get 15/30 seconds, if they are lucky, to respond to Government actions, Because of this, they are forced to do with these short negative soundbites as there is no time really to get a "balanced" reply out of them. Very sad.

We have just lived through the biggest resource boom in history, we should be rolling in cash, instead, we are borrowing at an astounding rate, some would even say a shocking rate. We should be China, and lending the rest of the world money, not the other way round. Even with stimulus packages (many of which were a disaster) doled out by the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Government, who inherited NO DEBT and a clean slate from the last Liberal Gov, and we are now in a big mess and it appears its going to get messier, as the latest fiscal figures keep changing for the worse, despite all the Government spending/borrowing.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 51):
Rudd isn't much better, but he is a change.

This is where I beg to differ. We have already K Rudd and what he stands for, as well as a merrie go round of ministers. The electorate (and many of his own peers) didn't/don't like it.

Remember, A leopard doesn't change its spots !

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 52):
I won't hold my breath but who knows.
Quoting gemuser (Reply 53):
Oh he will introduce it, but if it passes is another matter entirely.

The fact its on the "agenda" is at least a good thing.... its a start !

Quoting mariner (Reply 54):
but she was not a fool.

To have taken power like she did, and not to have recognized the consequences of doing such, leads me to think she's pretty close to it though.
So, if she's no fool, then supremely naive to say the least.  

Just look at the damage to the Labor brand.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 48):
Always nice to see that patient, constructive debate can result in better understanding.

You bet !  
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:51 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 52):
I've heard on ABC that during last night's "debate" Rudd announced he would introduce a bill to legalize same sex marriage during the first 100 days of his government if he was elected. I won't hold my breath but who knows

He will introduce it, I believe him on that, but the biggest problem is whether the Coalition will allow a conscience vote or not. Abbott, in as many words, re-stated his answer last year: "no". While it sounds nice as an election point, I think that the 100 days promise could be its downfall.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 55):
We are extremely fortunate that we are living where all the action will be over the next decades. Asia, being the fastest growing region in the world, (although maybe somewhat slower than previously forecast) is going to want a lot of what we have in the ground, this will not stop IMHO, and as i said, slow down perhaps, but it will remain positive for the Australian economy overall.

We are, you are absolutely right. However right now the slow down in the Chinese economy is having ramifications in Australia. We've got two options: (1) do what you suggest and wait for things to pick up, and (2) strengthen and diversify our economic base so that we can better manage downturns in the regional economy. #1 worked in the GFC, but this "laziness" (for want of a better word) means that we are blinded to the underlying weakness in the non-mining economy. This has been coming more obvious over the last couple of years, but we have ignored it because of the strength of the resources sector. Resources will almost certainly pick up again, as you say we're too good to lose, but that merely kicks the ball down the field until the next recession. Now would be a good time to take the knocks and make the hard yards, instead we will just sit back until the word comes down from China that we can start digging again. That is what I find disconcerting.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 55):
Remember, A leopard doesn't change its spots

I'm cynical of Rudd, don't worry. That said, my first post in reply 4 does indicate that I will vote on policy grounds - personality is only the icing on the cake.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 48):
I'm glad to see that we've reached a sensible, middle ground here. Always nice to see that patient, constructive debate can result in better understanding

It certainly sets this thread apart from the American politics ones 
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:16 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 55):
To have taken power like she did, and not to have recognized the consequences of doing such, leads me to think she's pretty close to it though.
So, if she's no fool, then supremely naive to say the least.  

I think she did recognize the consequences of it - or that there might be consequences.

Yes, she made a critical mistake with the way she handled the carbon tax issue, but the intention was honourable. And yes, she was too beholden to the right wing faction, especially on the issue of same-sex marriage as has come out today, but Labor PM's have been beholden to the factions before.

But I don't know how anyone could have survived the crap that was thrown at her, and a very great deal of it because of her gender, despite her fairly impressive legislative achievements. Would you rather not have the education reform or the disability legislation?

In my long life, I have never seen an Australian Prime Minister so viciously attacked on a personal level, and white-anted so relentlessly by some of her own party, not even Billy McMahon.

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-12 18:26:37]
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:09 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 57):
But I don't know how anyone could have survived the crap that was thrown at her, and a very great deal of it because of her gender, despite her fairly impressive legislative achievements. Would you rather not have the education reform or the disability legislation?

In my long life, I have never seen an Australian Prime Minister so viciously attacked on a personal level, and white-anted so relentlessly by some of her own party, not even Billy McMahon.

In that regard I am with you 100%. The manner in which "we" treated Julia was absolutely despicable, and as a nation we should be ashamed that such latent sexism came to the surface. That said, I'm not sure that she helped her own cause, and while I agree with many of her policy achievements (I indicated so in #4), some of her policy implementation was rushed and poorly thought through (like Rudd, admittedly) and she did struggle to communicate with the media, and thus the Australian people.

Edited for spelling

[Edited 2013-08-12 20:37:06]
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:23 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 58):
That said, I'm not sure that she helped her own cause, and while I agree with many of her policy achievements (I indicated so in #4), some of her policy implementation was not rushed and poorly thought threw (like Rudd, admittedly) and she did struggle to communicate with the media, and thus the Australian people.

I agree that she may not have helped her own cause, but I'm not exactly sure - in the face of such intense media hostility - how she could.

I don't know how she could have handed the comment that her recently deceased father would have been ashamed of her any better than she did.

I'm not sure how else she should have answered the question of whether her partner is gay - because he is a hairdresser - and I find it appalling that the question was was even asked.

The weirdest was the journalist Michelle Grattan at The Age, who, perhaps to show she wasn't cutting another woman any slack, sneered relentlessly at everything Ms. Gillard did.

I don't know how she could have deflected the extraordinary hostility of the Murdoch press, not just at The Australian, but most vehemently at the Daily Telegraph.

In my view, the Australian media didn't just cross a line with her - it vaulted over that line and kept on vaulting.

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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:41 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 59):
I don't know how she could have handed the comment that her recently deceased father would have been ashamed of her any better than she did.

I'm not sure how else she should have answered the question of whether her partner is gay - because he is a hairdresser - and I find it appalling that the question was was even asked.

The weirdest was the journalist Michelle Grattan at The Age, who, perhaps to show she wasn't cutting another woman any slack, sneered relentlessly at everything Ms. Gillard did.

I don't know how she could have deflected the extraordinary hostility of the Murdoch press, not just at The Australian, but most vehemently at the Daily Telegraph.

In my view, the Australian media didn't just cross a line with her - it vaulted over that line and kept on vaulting.

You are, of course, completely correct.

I guess where I'm coming from is that I don't necessarily conflate remorse about how she was treated, and anger with how the media treated her, with political support.

Please don't get me wrong, I genuinely believe that how she was treated should be a black mark on this nation, and I find it distressing that most people have forgotten already. As a nation, we should be addressing how this was possible, standing up to the very real sexism that pervades our society, rather than brushing it under the carpet.
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:27 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 60):
I guess where I'm coming from is that I don't necessarily conflate remorse about how she was treated, and anger with how the media treated her, with political support.

Since it is the past, however recent, I had not intended to write about her in this thread, but then I decided that some stuff needed to be said and - curiously, perhaps - it was more provoked by the comments about Rudd and Abbot and their mutual lack of conviction than your casual throwaway.

Whatever the rights and wrong of it all, I yearned for the Australian Labor Party to show some collective balls - no matter the electoral cost.

She was the leader - she won that position more than once. I yearned to see the party stand collectively behind her, to support their (female) leader even if the party went down in flames at the election - to stand for something that mattered, not just being in power.

Instead, they panicked and let personal self-interest rule - trying to cling to power by any means was preferable to showing conviction about anything, with Combet as the most duplicitous of the whole mob of gutless wonders.

In my view, she had bigger balls than any of 'em. I thought the photo of her knitting was a wonderful two-finger salute to all the sexists of Australia.

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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:38 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 61):
Since it is the past, however recent, I had not intended to write about her in this thread, but then I decided that some stuff needed to be said and - curiously, perhaps - it was more provoked by the comments about Rudd and Abbot and their mutual lack of conviction than your casual throwaway.

Whatever the rights and wrong of it all, I yearned for the Australian Labor Party to show some collective balls - no matter the electoral cost.

She was the leader - she won that position more than once. I yearned to see the party stand collectively behind her, to support their (female) leader even if the party went down in flames at the election - to stand for something that mattered, not just being in power.

Instead, they panicked and let personal self-interest rule - trying to cling to power by any means was preferable to showing conviction about anything, with Combet as the most duplicitous of the whole mob of gutless wonders.

In my view, she had bigger balls than any of 'em. I thought the photo of her knitting was a wonderful two-finger salute to all the sexists of Australia.

I'd say that Shorten was the most ball-less one, although Combet was close, but other than that there is, once again, nothing I can argue about there  

I guess I am too harsh on her, I do agree with everything you point out
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:57 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 62):
I'd say that Shorten was the most ball-less one, although Combet was close, but other than that there is, once again, nothing I can argue about there  

  

Not one ball between the pair of 'em.  

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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:39 am

This thread has gone very quiet, although that's probably because there is bugger all to discuss. Other than a bit of "sex appeal" and who will do the most for the Top End, nothing has happened all week other than the usual name calling.

This cartoon sums up the dire nature of the campaign perfectly IMHO



Copyright: Bill Leak, The Australian
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:48 pm

Frankly, this...

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 10):
Unfortunately both parties raced to the bottom on the , in reality, minor issue of refugees.

...added to that...

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 64):
This cartoon sums up the dire nature of the campaign perfectly IMHO

...really leaves a not so enjoyable feeling about these people.

Quoting wunala (Reply 1):
Quoting bookishaviator (Thread starter):What will steer your vote on September 7?
Australia Post. I'm having to go postal this year.

In what sense will it steer your vote?
 
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:30 pm

back to the policy debate...here is a cracker from Abbott, paid parental leave up to $150,000 for new mothers! middle class welfare right there from the guy who says govt is spending & taxing too much!
 
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:59 pm

And this from the man who "asked for a positive campaign", instead of the usual negative drivel, we all have to listen to.

Just more evidence that you cant trust Kev.               

This fella is a real Chameleon, through and through.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politi...ak-ad-campaign-20130818-2s55l.html

[Edited 2013-08-18 15:59:48]
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:50 pm

Quote:
Labor believes the longer the campaign goes on, voters will realise how stage-managed the Abbott campaign is. "We're chancing our arm with him [Rudd], he's out there in the public, Abbott has been put in cotton wool," a strategist said.

If the Libs can successfully keep Abbott out of the spot light and micro-manage what he says then they can win this. Their biggest risk is if people remember that he is unpopular! So far they've done a very good job of it.

Polling that I read over the weekend that considered a seat-by-seat breakdown is showing 80odd-60odd for the Coalition. That's a pretty significant shift in 2 weeks from 75-72!
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:28 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 65):
In what sense will it steer your vote?

He's playing on the pun that Australia Post will deliver (steer) his vote from his house to the electoral commission...

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 66):

back to the policy debate...here is a cracker from Abbott, paid parental leave up to $150,000 for new mothers! middle class welfare right there from the guy who says govt is spending & taxing too much!

One of the worst policy promises in a fair while I think. He loses most of his legitimacy when he derides Labor's profligate spending and tax increases yet he is happy for Gonski, increased hospital funding, DisabilityCare, this insane paid parental leave, the tax free threshold increases (essentially a tax cut), carbon tax payments. The list goes on.

Good piece by my favourite political journo and all round delightful person Laura Tingle today on paid parental leave. http://www.afr.com/p/national/workab...eave_it_out_P8lhRSKyovqw41NcR7J3oN

Long term structural deficits here we come....
 
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:05 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 67):
And this from the man who "asked for a positive campaign", instead of the usual negative drivel, we all have to listen to.

we know who Kev is and so-on but what is Tony hiding? forget the party and all the other nonsense and ask where the funding is coming from!
 
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:53 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 69):
One of the worst policy promises in a fair while I think

I agree. It is short sighted electioneering, and from someone who complains that government spending is too high and that the business sector is struggling under excessive red tape etc. The answer? Implement the most generous social program in a generation, and do say by taxing corporations!

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 69):
He loses most of his legitimacy when he derides Labor's profligate spending and tax increases yet he is happy for Gonski, increased hospital funding, DisabilityCare, this insane paid parental leave, the tax free threshold increases (essentially a tax cut), carbon tax payments. The list goes on.

I agree. That and his persistent refusal to release detailed costings. Maybe the add campaign acknowledged in the article linked by The Commodore is closer to home than he care admit   

And let's not forget that he opposes raising the tax-free threshold, and wants to revert it back to $8,000. Speaking as a student, the raised tax free threshold has made a huge difference this year.
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:07 am

The problem with Australian (and probably much of the rest of the world) politics is that the people involved (and I include the media in this) mistake their power games for reality. So they run the country based upon opinion polls and emotional responses rather than leading it by making rational decisions based upon scientific, technical and economic evidence.

In other words, instead of making the decisions that most people would make if they were sat down in a quiet room and taken through the facts they listen to the angry mob. That's not leadership.

I'm disgusted with how blatantly partisan News Corp (especially the Daily Telegraph in Sydney) is and how they will print contradictory lies without shame or apology, so long as it is against Labor and the Greens. Same with talkback radio. They appeal to anger, greed and stupid nationalism over rational thought. What kind of kickback is Murdoch expecting out of the probable next government? Is that the kind of "balance" that will be expected out of the ABC?

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 71):
I agree. It is short sighted electioneering, and from someone who complains that government spending is too high and that the business sector is struggling under excessive red tape etc. The answer? Implement the most generous social program in a generation, and do say by taxing corporations!

How about all the criticism of the government over the insulation deaths? It was cowboy operators in *private industry* that caused the problems ie business took advantage of taxpayers money and a lack of regulation and performed a shoddy job of it. So what is it? Free market or more regulation?

Who I will vote for is my own business. I haven't seen the list of candidates yet - I usually work from the bottom up starting with the most racist/religious/violent loonies. It's a pity that preference deals mean that these morons can hold the balance of power in the senate.
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:00 am

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 70):
we know who Kev is and so-on but what is Tony hiding?

Well, if your talking about costings (Liberal partys) I think over the next week we should start to see more on the table, as it were.
Remember back to the last election, the costings weren't divulged until the Friday afternoon, just hours before the Saturday election if I have it true in my head. And I think that most of the last several election have been about the same. No opposition lets it out to soon.

But regardless, things are not going to be good financially.
We should be swimming in money, after having just gone through the biggest resource boom in living memory (Australia), and what do we have instead, big debt.

To me, that's because of complete mismanagement of the economy. Yes, we have gone through the GFC etc relatively unscathed, but that's mainly because of Australia's geographical and economical position in the world, not because of some "fantastic" economic management of the economy by the Labor Government. It would have, to a large degree, been the same regardless of who was in power.

I might add this too, don't forget, when Labor came into power, they inherited NO debt at all, can you imagine that. No debt, no nothing.
Oh what a position to be in. I'd imagine, there are very very few governments throughout the world, ever being in that position in history.
But, unfortunately, its completely been squandered.

Quoting allrite (Reply 72):
How about all the criticism of the government over the insulation deaths? It was cowboy operators in *private industry* that caused the problems ie business took advantage of taxpayers money and a lack of regulation and performed a shoddy job of it. So what is it? Free market or more regulation?

Its because of direct Government policy, that caused these deaths. (and a Baboon of an environment minister)

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/fede...-enough-abbott-20130704-2peal.html

The Government rushed this through with urgency. Telling us they have to pump large amounts of money into the economy as stimulus, and that they have to do it now, not next week or the week after. That way, they could sit down and think, rationally, about ALL the "consequences" of bring in such a policy as this, and its likely outcomes.

But ohhhhh no, its the fault of the individual business, lets blame them for the deaths, and take the "heat" of us. I think not ?

Again, bad management by the Labor Government, and nothing else.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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allrite
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:49 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 73):
Its because of direct Government policy, that caused these deaths. (and a Baboon of an environment minister)

I'm not arguing that such problems were not an inevitable consequence of handing out money without proper regulation and monitoring and that the government should have seen it coming. But how does that absolve the individual businesses from doing the wrong things? Nobody forced them to take the money and do the wrong thing.

It's like a builder I overheard complaining about the school buildings stimulus money. He still took the business rather than show some backbone for his convictions. Don't blame the government for your own greed.

So when I see my local federal member (Liberal and small business owner) sending me junk mail that complains how Labor red tape is bad for business I call him a hypocrite.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:24 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 74):
Nobody forced them to take the money and do the wrong thing.

No they didn't, and I'm not in any way making excuses for them, they did do the wrong thing.

But in my mind, so did the Government when they implemented this rushed policy.

The government in all its infinite wisdom, caused such a debacle its not funny. No wonder cowboys in the insulation industry, wanting to make a quick buck, milked it for all it was worth. But it was directly related to what the Government was doing and the way it was influencing that particular industry. There were not enough qualified people around to do the work, and everyone wanted it done immediately as there were time limits and a waiting period caused by its popularity. Guys were coming from NZ just to do insulation, with NO experience, and get paid in Aussie $$$$

No. the Government is just as responsible IMHO as the cowboys in the industry.

Quoting allrite (Reply 74):
So when I see my local federal member (Liberal and small business owner) sending me junk mail that complains how Labor red tape is bad for business I call him a hypocrite.

I cant tell you what to do. But there is red tape and there is red tape, some good and some bad. Its there for a reason, so innocent people (as should have been the case here) don't get electrocuted and die.

Get used to it.

[Edited 2013-08-19 17:26:30]

[Edited 2013-08-19 17:26:58]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:17 am

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com..../go_forth_and_procreate_australia/

interesting piece in the opposition gazette today...seems the PPL funding is short a billion or so.
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:22 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 73):

It is incorrect to say that when the Coalition left office in 2007 that the incoming government "inherited NO debt at all."

The debt level was certainly less tthan it is today, but debt there was. In fact the gross debt stood at $59 billion but this was supported by net assets of $31 billion. Debt was being paid down, but we do not know what would have happened to the overall level of debt had the Coalition retained office in 2007. While in opposition the Coalition was highly critical of the government's response to the GFC, we don't know what they would have done in office, as what people say in opposition is often at variance with what they do in office.

Today gross debt is about $268 billion. Treasury forecasts for 2013-2014 net debt of $184 billion. The forward estimates for 2016-2017 suggest that the net debt will rise to $217 billion. This really makes one wonder how both the Coalition and Labor will pay for all their promises. If Abbott and his team do get in, can we expect to hear the old story, "the position we have inherited is far worse then we expected so..."
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TheCommodore
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:54 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 77):
It is incorrect to say that when the Coalition left office in 2007 that the incoming government "inherited NO debt at all."

To be precise then, in 2007 Australian Government debt to GDP was a RECORD LOW of just 9.7%

Hardly worth mentioning in the overall scheme of things .

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 77):
Today gross debt is about $268 billion.

So compare that, to 2007 !

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 77):
This really makes one wonder how both the Coalition and Labor will pay for all their promises. If Abbott and his team do get in, can we expect to hear the old story, "the position we have inherited is far worse then we expected so..."

Ok, so you've told us what the "Coalition" will say once in power and the books are opened. But what will Labor say if they were re elected, more of the same BS where the figures are always revised down after Treasury has played catch up, with all of Labor spending promises.

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 76):
interesting piece in the opposition gazette today...seems the PPL funding is short a billion or so.

I wouldn't worry about that. The Pollies will always find the money somewhere.   

But this is a worry though......

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-1...ubt-on-rudd27s-nt-tax-plan/4890458

"Labor has not released any costings for the proposal, arguing that will have to wait for more detailed talks with the NT Government."

So what's this going to cost us ????????

Policy making on the run..... you bet cha !
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:19 am

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 77):
If Abbott and his team do get in, can we expect to hear the old story, "the position we have inherited is far worse then we expected so..."

He will no doubt pull it, but it will be a lie. The PEFO just came back to bite them - it was their own idea (and a good one) but now they can't complain that they weren't aware of the situation.

I'm still waiting for those costings. Until then the Coalition lacks legitimacy IMHO. It might be electorally successful to merely rely on Labor's unpopularity, but without making it clear how the alternative government will change things and make the situation better then why should people vote for the alternative.

My mother is a life long conservative, never voter Labo(u)r in her life (either in the UK or Aus) but will because she considers the devil you know to be better than the devil you don't. And right now we know nothing about Abbott's policies.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 78):
So compare that, to 2007

The GFC got in the way. As AyostoLeon said, we don't know that the Coalition would have responded differently.
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allrite
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:05 am

Well, the good news is that I received my Clive Palmer Titanic II DVD in the letterbox yesterday. I haven't watched it because I'm afraid what it might do to my player, but I'm hoping that it stars a zombie Di Caprio.

The "Fair Dinkum" cover evokes Australian patriotism, though Palmer seems quite happy to register his aircraft offshore and get the Chinese in to develop his mining projects and build the Titanic II. But at least he is heavily involved in that great Australian sport of building big things for no good reason.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:10 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 79):
I'm still waiting for those costings. Until then the Coalition lacks legitimacy IMHO. It might be electorally successful to merely rely on Labor's unpopularity, but without making it clear how the alternative government will change things and make the situation better then why should people vote for the alternative.

They are never really released until the last few days of a campaign, so why do you keep on making out this is something only the Coalition is guilty off. Both are, and always have been.

In the last election, labor didn't release their costings until the day before the election

But let's not mention that shall we, for the sake of sounding balanced at least ?

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 79):
My mother is a life long conservative, never voter Labo(u)r in her life (either in the UK or Aus) but will because she considers the devil you know to be better than the devil you don't. And right now we know nothing about Abbott's policies.

So what about this little Devil, or is different ??

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 78):
But this is a worry though......

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-1...ubt-on-rudd27s-nt-tax-plan/4890458

"Labor has not released any costings for the proposal, arguing that will have to wait for more detailed talks with the NT Government."


Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 79):
The GFC got in the way. As AyostoLeon said, we don't know that the Coalition would have responded differently.

After all the waste that's been revealed by this Government own failed policies, I'd give it hands down to the Lib's, any day of the week.

And don't for get this little clanger. This Government, is still handing out 6000 cheques for $900 bucks a pop !
 Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-cash/story-fn3dxiwe-1226699738709
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QANTAS077
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:40 am

 
User avatar
RyanairGuru
Posts: 8213
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:59 am

Quoting qantas077 (Reply 82):

My God! I was telling someone the other day that The Guardian has the best foreign affairs reporting of any mainstream media outlet I know (other than The Economist - which is much more of a niche product) and now I discover that they have an entire section dedicated to the Australian election.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
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RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:06 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 83):
I was telling someone the other day that The Guardian has the best foreign affairs reporting of any mainstream media outlet I know (other than The Economist - which is much more of a niche product) and now I discover that they have an entire section dedicated to the Australian election.

I guess you're aware of the Australian edition of The Guardian?:

http://www.theguardian.com/au

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5196
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Australian Federal Election 2013

Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:23 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 83):
My God! I was telling someone the other day that The Guardian has the best foreign affairs reporting of any mainstream media outlet I know (other than The Economist - which is much more of a niche product) and now I discover that they have an entire section dedicated to the Australian election.

it has excellent coverage unlike that other rag News...i'm yet to see anything in the News tabloids about the PPL which leads me to think they may not agree entirely with the policy but cannot be seen to criticise it.

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