Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
TristarAtLCA
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:16 pm

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:00 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
Of course he was.

I asked you to clarify a single point. Didn't require the potted history of Lee Harvey Oswald.

I am wondering how you dismiss the numerous witnesses who to this day (if alive) maintain there was fire from the picket fence and the 1979 commission who concluded 'a high probability that two gunmen fired at the President' and that 'it was probable four shots were fired'.

I am by no means a conspiracy believer (9/11, Moon landings, Diana etc), but to ignore eye witness testimony from people who where actually there seems bizarre. Why would they not be telling the truth?

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
My point is this, do aspects of Oswald's unhappy, fustrated life seem familiar?
With other assassins, with many times in recent years, those who carry out mass shootings?

Familiar or not this proves not a thing about Oswald being a lone shooter.

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
That finding was later discounted.

Which finding?

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
The theorists too often forget to mention significant factors like this.

And the believers ignore the MK 1 set of ears of over 40 witnesses who were ACTUALLY there.

[Edited 2013-08-19 16:12:00]
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
bennett123
Posts: 10395
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:19 pm

Are we all wandering a bit off topic.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:20 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 42):
I think the myth - and the perpetuation of it - is extraordinarily cruel to the young man in question.

   Unfortunately, some people make it their business to live from the infliction of misery on others.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
BN747
Posts: 7934
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:23 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
Of course he was. Trained to be a good shot by his time in the US Marines. Of course the theorists then say 'he was no good as a shot', which is patently not true.

In 1956 his rating was that of a Sharpshooter - a 212.

Three years laterm 1959 his skill dropped to a 191 that of a Marksman = average

...if he dropped that poorly in 3 years, how far could he drop in 4 years...1963 when he's be accused of killing the president.

But don't let facts get in your way.

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):


.

After all your tv dinner rated psychoanalysis of Oswald... then why on earth would he turn around and deny it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald
Oswald declared, "I didn't shoot anybody" and, "They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I'm just a patsy!" Later, at an arranged press meeting, a reporter asked, "Did you kill the President?" and Oswald—who by that time had been advised of the charge of murdering Tippit, but had not yet been arraigned in Kennedy's death—answered, "No, I have not been charged with that. In fact, nobody has said that to me yet. The first thing I heard about it was when the newspaper reporters in the hall asked me that question." As he was led from the room the question was called out, "What did you do in Russia?" and, "How did you hurt your eye?"; Oswald answered, "A policeman hit me."

The profile of the person you expressed would proudly own up to killing of the century...but Oswald flat out denies it. Put your skills to work and explain that..or are we to expect another Cracker Jack 'surprise' analysis.

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):

Unhappy as a child who grew into an adult who craved attention.
ALL humans crave attention...how is he any different from millions of unhappy children?

Amazing how you've convinced yourself that you some kind of expert in this area.

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
Had he been the spy for KGB, CIA, or the no doubt myriad others that has been claimed, the KGB would have kept him at Moscow Centre.

More of your expertise in the world of spying?

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
Like everything else in his life,

What? was he bullied in high school? Or was he the high school bully? Mr Expert?

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
surely when he arrived back in the US there would be huge attention.
There wasn't, he was crushed.

Pffff... really???

I guess you have the video of him sobbing in his soup...

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
So he escalated, the attempt on the ex general.

Had he succeeded..would he have owned it? Or denied it. You know his profile so well this ought to be an easy one.

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
Then a workmate told him the President's motorcade would pass under their workplace.

Who? What workmate?

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
My point is this, do aspects of Oswald's unhappy, fustrated life seem familiar?
With other assassins, with many times in recent years, those who carry out mass shootings?

If this doesn't prove you're way out of your league...nothing will. You're now fusing the profile of a politically driven killer with that of a kid pissed off at classmates and teachers.

You have no point.

Your entire Oswald profile reads like Lucy 'the Doctor is In' (of Charlie Brown fame) sizing up of man you know nothing about.

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 43):
Who said anything about a magic bullet, I believe there were 4 shots fired, 3 by Oswald and a 4th from the Grassy Knoll. I'm not alone and the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations also thought the same.

That finding was later discounted.

Wrong...3 years later the claim was actually bolstered.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald

In 1982, a group of twelve scientists appointed by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), led by Norman Ramsey, concluded that the acoustic evidence submitted to the HSCA was "seriously flawed."[211] Donald B. Thomas said in a 2001 article in Science & Justice, the journal of Britain's Forensic Science Society, that the NAS investigation was itself flawed. He concluded with a 96.3 percent certainty that there were at least two gunmen firing at President Kennedy and that at least one shot came from the grassy knoll.

Quoting GDB (Reply 45):
I return to my original question, Lincoln, McKinley, very nearly Reagan, what made JFK being assassinated so special when viewed in those terms?

If you must ask that question, you have little to no understanding all things Americana to begin with.

BN747

[Edited 2013-08-19 16:34:04]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
bennett123
Posts: 10395
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:59 pm

What has any of this got to do with the topic?.
 
GDB
Posts: 13910
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:11 am

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 50):
I asked you to clarify a single point. Didn't require the potted history of Lee Harvey Oswald.

I am wondering how you dismiss the numerous witnesses who to this day (if alive) maintain there was fire from the picket fence and the 1979 commission who concluded 'a high probability that two gunmen fired at the President' and that 'it was probable four shots were fired'.

I am by no means a conspiracy believer (9/11, Moon landings, Diana etc), but to ignore eye witness testimony from people who where actually there seems bizarre. Why would they not be telling the truth?

The 'potted history' is important, motive in a murder case is too.
Since those who think he was not alone or did not do it, paint Oswald in all sorts of ways, often outlandishly so.
The truth, as so often, is rather more sordid and sad.

We know that eye witness reports are often not reliable, in a confused and violent situation more so.
Is that not the case with TWA800?
And how much of what is claimed has come from books soon discredited, or from (and this really revived the whole thing), movies like 'JFK'.
Such a well made film, however seductive it's ideas though, nearly every 'fact' is wrong. Some are obvious, like the claim Oswald on defection gave information on how to shoot down the U-2 spyplane.
Nonsense, the development of the SA-2 SAM caused that.

In the end though, it comes to human nature, nearly 50 years on, no solid proof, no deathbed confessions, none of the literally hundreds of motives and suspects proved, despite a massive number of investigations.
People so want to believe that such a charismatic figure like JFK had to be killed as part of a conspiracy, but why?
US Presidents are mortal, some have been assassinated.
Had Reagan been killed, I reckon much of the JFK stuff would have faded away, the fact he nearly was should make no difference, a lone nut - again.

I don't believe you can pick and choose conspiracy theories.
You cannot say 'yeah JFK' and 'Diana, no it's BS'
Since both use the same methods to frame an alternative narrative, by often the same people.
Who often also believe even darker ones, like the faking of the Holocaust or Moon landings.
 
TristarAtLCA
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:16 pm

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:02 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 55):
We know that eye witness reports are often not reliable, in a confused and violent situation more so.

It is noteworthy that you have completely avoided discussing the 1979 commissions conclusions nor answered which of their 'findings' were discounted beyond doubt. The three dozen plus witnesses who can be given a name (there were many more) who provided police statements as to the direction of gunfire have never had their evidence debunked. After all, how could it? To simply dismiss over three dozen statements with 'eye witness reports are often unreliable' is weak beyond belief when it is apparent the '79 commission accepted this evidence.

Whether you like it or not, the 1979 commissions conclusions is the only official investigation in which ALL evidence seems to have been considered.

Quoting GDB (Reply 55):
And how much of what is claimed has come from books soon discredited, or from (and this really revived the whole thing), movies like 'JFK'.

Please highlight any proof that the living breathing people who stated that there was gunfire from the picket fence have been discredited.

As for the film? it was entertaining enough and did a good job of placing the 'back and to the left' mantra in a lot of peoples minds!

Quoting GDB (Reply 55):
I don't believe you can pick and choose conspiracy theories.
You cannot say 'yeah JFK' and 'Diana, no it's BS'

Why? There is no evidence that Diana didn't die in a tragic car accident. There was no doubt that Hinckley fired the shots at Reagan nor that Sirhan wasn't responsible for Bobby Kennedy's murder. But in the case of JFK we have two conflicting official investigations. One stating that Oswald was alone and one stating that in all 'probability' he was not. This is not picking and choosing. This is responding to official reports into his assassination.
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
GDB
Posts: 13910
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 56):
It is noteworthy that you have completely avoided discussing the 1979 commissions conclusions nor answered which of their 'findings' were discounted beyond doubt. The three dozen plus witnesses who can be given a name (there were many more) who provided police statements as to the direction of gunfire have never had their evidence debunked. After all, how could it? To simply dismiss over three dozen statements with 'eye witness reports are often unreliable' is weak beyond belief when it is apparent the '79 commission accepted this evidence.

That investigation had partial information, it's ironic when those who called for that investigation were OK with it not considering everything but accused the Warren Commission report of the same thing1
(Both were flawed).

In a built up area it's very hard with gauge accurately where gunfire is coming from, unless a round whizzes by or hits you.
If you don't see a flash or smoke.
In the 1970's, the British Army developed a device, portable in vehicles down to Land Rover size, to indicate the direction of bullets, a basic display with illuminated arrows to show general direction.
This is because the experience in Northern Ireland had found that the troops, if they did not see a flash, were finding it very hard to to tell where they were being fired from.
Sound bouncing off building, richchets, these were well trained professional soldiers, some with prior N.I. deployments, all given extensive refresher training in urban warfare prior to each tour.

About a decade after that Commission, Granada TV used it as the basis of an investigation to put flesh on the bones, to prove a second gunman.
Photos taken that day, film footage, was put through the then state of the art computer enhancements.
They seemed to find, a very blotchy image of a figure, wearing a policman's cap, complete with badge, with what looked like a gun flash from an unclear weapon fired from the shoulder.
On the grassy Knoll.

What happened after that? The technology to do this sort of enhancement kept rapidly getting better, it was not what it seemed, more like one of those ink blotch tests, with the additional enhancement of the power of suggestion.

I used to also believe there was more to JFK's killing.
But common sense says otherwise, when you really think about it. Looking at just how bad the US (for all it's faults, still about the most open society in the world), is at keeping any secrets. Watergate to Wikileaks.
Lies told to cover the somewhat deceptive terms used to commit US troops to Vietnam, lasted until the Pentagon Papers were leaked in 1971.
With all this leaking, spying for money or for other reasons, it's very hard to see how for 50 years such a monumental secret such as either any kind of US Government complicity in the killing, or them wilfully, for whatever reasons, covering up a conspiracy by others, be it Russia, Cuba, the Mob, staying so secret for so long.

Towards the end of his life, writer Norman Mailer, who had been an early and passionate believer in a conspiracy, came to the same conclusion.

Anyway, enough about JFK, we've annoyed other members enough with this perhaps, so here is an offbeat look at the source of this latest Diana nonsense;

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/s...13/aug/19/diana-death-sas-solder-n

The name might be unknown, but Walter Mitty is a good fit.

[Edited 2013-08-20 12:08:49]
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:18 pm

All: is it possible to steer this discussion back towards the OP's posting ? Or else have the Mods lock it (never thought I'd say that...)
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
Confuscius
Posts: 3724
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 12:29 am

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:27 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46):
Quoting mariner (Reply 47):

Here's my theory...

Both men had ménage à trois with the princess. Her egg was simultaneously fertilized by both donors' sperm, and thus Harry has both men's distinguishing features.   

Now, what does this have to do with Diana's death?

Absolutely nothing!
Ain't I a stinker?
 
GDB
Posts: 13910
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:09 pm

I do feel sorry for Harry.
You cannot help who you are born to, leaving the 'firm' would, as he saw with his mother, only make the media attention worse.
Despite the trauma of her loss, the way it happened, Harry has to make nice with an industry that he blames (rightly in my view), for the accident that killed Diana.

He's a dedicated Army officer, deeply committed to his other public duties too.
So after long pre Afghan deployment in the US, he has a party in Vegas with his comrades in arms, good luck to him.
He's young and single after all.

Harry is very popular, amongst younger people especially, the sense of mischief, hint of danger even, as well as his commitment to causes his Mother also espoused.

He cannot react to those slurs about his parentage either. Who would want that said about them?
He does have features of both Charles and Diana, her from a family of red haired people after all.

You can imagine, or maybe we cannot, what this new nonsense does to him.
 
luckyone
Posts: 3531
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:10 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
The ghost of Diana haunts that marriage and I think it is more than a little unhealthy.

Perhaps. Though William didn't do himself any favors using Diana's engagement ring--from a failed marriage. Great karma there. That aside, these marriages are marriages of necessity, and if you happen to like each other that's just gravy. Had Charles and Diana been married 100 years prior they never would have been divorced, and each would have continued their desired lechery and we would have been none the wiser.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
Now, I am not saying Buckingham Palace had a hand in this, but it seems awful fishy that Charles and Camilla wed after having an affair and he divorced Diana.

So? It's not a big secret that Charles and Camilla continued some sort of romantic interaction after Charles and Diana married.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
I personally don't buy the official line about JFK's death, there just too much that doesn't make sense, something stinks about it.

IMHO it was easier for 1960s America to swallow the idea that a disillusioned loon with ties to *gasp* Communism gunned down the POTUS instead of corrupt deals behind closed doors that the Kennedys couldn't keep and mob ties gone sour coming back to bite them in the butt. I wouldn't call it a conspiracy, but it's certainly not the first time the government would have tried to spin something to make it more palatable.

[Edited 2013-08-20 16:25:44]
 
BN747
Posts: 7934
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:20 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 57):
With all this leaking, spying for money or for other reasons, it's very hard to see how for 50 years such a monumental secret such as either any kind of US Government complicity in the killing, or them wilfully, for whatever reasons, covering up a conspiracy by others, be it Russia, Cuba, the Mob, staying so secret for so long.

And that right there is your problem with conspiracy within powerful circles. "it's very hard to see ... it staying secret for so long"

You seem to think 'the machinations or doings on a higher social/governmental level - functions exactly the same as 3 knuckleheads conspiring to knock over a liquor store or a 7-11 convenience store ultimately plays out the same way... "oh, don't worry, someone will talk" - when in truth, they are light years apart in planning and in execution.

I'm not surprised that 50 years nothing has leaked out, if something of importance leaked out..then the FACT that Nixon, Bush Sr, Hoover and others were in Dallas that very day would mean more than what speculation might suggest. Snowden & Manning's leaks have caused like 'no real damage'..may very well lead one to believe that Snowden & Manning may have been 'Bill Clinton-ed'...as in tempted to leak info as Clinton was baited by Monica Lewinsky who was goaded by Linda Tripp to pursue Clinton - sexually. Snowden & Manning took the bait, the gov't discovers a weak spot in it's apparatus as it predicted and now knows which types of personalities to ban from certain positions... because in retrospect, what real damage came out of either case? Nothing.

Now, after the Snowden & Manning punishments.. the government's least concern is 'a whistle blower'..no matter how bad the situation... no one will be talking for a very long time to come about anything!

the message is loud and clear...Whistle Blowers STFU! ..or else!
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 19473
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:13 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 61):
Perhaps. Though William didn't do himself any favors using Diana's engagement ring--from a failed marriage. Great karma there.

I had no problem with the ring. Many people can remember him walking behind his mother's coffin (and Harry weeping in the abbey) and of course he has living memories of her. I thought the ring was a sweet and touching thing to do, remembering the past but erasing that childhood sadness.

The effect on the Diana obsessives, alas, was less about William and Catherine and more about Diana, and that's the part I don't think is healthy - that she dominates their thinking, with no regard to the consequences on anyone else.

Diana said that there were three of them in her marriage and many tut-tutted - wretched Charles, odious Camilla. But to many of those same people, there are three people in William and Catherine's marriage, Diana as the third, and they think it is desirable.

On the positive side, William may prove to be the powerful force. I thought his interview yesterday, with the release of the baby pics, was remarkable, a very centred man with a full understanding of his position - both actual and potential - and yet with an ability to separate that from the welfare of his family.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 61):
Had Charles and Diana been married 100 years prior they never would have been divorced, and each would have continued their desired lechery and we would have been none the wiser.

Of course, and that could have happened. Diana's position - had she stayed in the marriage - would have been unassailable, much as Queen Alexandra, the wife of Edward VII, was revered by the public despite his well-known infidelities (see Alice Keppel, above).

But this is now, when everyone is encouraged by media and social media to let it all hang out, all the time, the heck with the consequences to others. So she blabbed, victim psychology, it became all about her - despite the harm she might have been doing to her sons - and to William's future inheritance.

I am surprised that those sons have turned out so well, I guess in large part because of their father.

mariner

[Edited 2013-08-20 18:22:34]
aeternum nauta
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13179
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:11 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 60):
as he saw with his mother, only make the media attention worse.

The media attention got worse with her due to her own actions, she was whoring around like a teenager, the media and the public wanted to know who was currently sharing her bed. Had she been more discrete people wouldn't have cared.

Quoting GDB (Reply 60):
I do feel sorry for Harry.

But not for William?
 
connies4ever
Posts: 3393
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:54 pm

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:14 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 64):
The media attention got worse with her due to her own actions, she was whoring around like a teenager, the media and the public wanted to know who was currently sharing her bed. Had she been more discrete people wouldn't have cared.

My personal view has been for quite some time that Diana used the media, through the good offices of the paparazzi, as much as they chased her. In a vain attempt to remain somehow relevant and "glamourous". At the end she was I think a sad creature.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 13619
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:55 pm

I've driven in that tunnel many times. Like other tunnels on that same embankment road (limited to 50Km/h) the slopes are steep. If you drive at more than twice the limit, swerving between cars while looking at your mirrors for paparazzi, an accident is not a mere probability !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
GDB
Posts: 13910
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Breaking News Diana Death By SAS Being Assessed.

Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 64):
But not for William?

Yes, him too. He was at least a bit older and unlike Harry, he is a direct heir, a future king, this also gives his life that bit more structure.
The Army has been the making of Harry.

Whatever Diana did the media would be on her back, they were from the first time she was linked to Charles.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 66):
If you drive at more than twice the limit, swerving between cars while looking at your mirrors for paparazzi, an accident is not a mere probability !

I've been through it too, wonder how many conspiracy types have?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], Fco1967, scbriml and 25 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos