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RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:56 pm
by seb146
Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
Send the illegals packing and you will see an increase in wages across the board

Except that will not happen. We have a thing called "minimum wage" in this country. Some states are higher than the federal standard. Some illegals work at fast food places. In your scenario, those minimum wage jobs will no longer pay minimum wage. Even though they will.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
Anyone who spends $100K for college and ends up at McDonald's was probably too stupid to learn a serious career and gained nothing from college.

Like business administration, economics, electronics, computer science, CAD, surveying....

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 27):
$40,000 a year plus pension and benefits for 9 months of work? I'd say that's doing very well indeed.

Have you tried living on $40,000 a year? Give it a shot. A family of five. Go on and let me know how that turns out.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 26):
Due to excess government regulations and taxation.

AKA Americans refuse to work for 25 cents an hour for 18 hours a day.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:48 pm
by flyguy89
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 47):
Except nobody called Americans stupid, apart from you, just then.


Sarcasm obviously, but that's always the implication though however, isn't it? That we're so inept not to have the lavish government services and social benefits like those in Western Europe.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 47):
Anyway, there are other measures of success, and not everyone has the large population you have in the US

Certainly, but there are a number of other countries with greater or similar population numbers.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 47):
On a GDP per capita basis you're far from number one

When adjusted for purchasing power parity however....

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 47):
But claiming to be the largest and most wealthy is only half of the picture.

And so is using government services and social benefits as a measuring stick.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 51):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 27):
$40,000 a year plus pension and benefits for 9 months of work? I'd say that's doing very well indeed.

Have you tried living on $40,000 a year? Give it a shot. A family of five. Go on and let me know how that turns out.

Considering they often make more than that, that many teachers work in the interim during the summer and the low cost of living outside the major population centers on the East and West Coasts, it's very much adequate. If the other parent works as well you'll definitely be living very comfortably.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:31 pm
by RussianJet
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
but that's always the implication though however, isn't it?

No, I wouldn't say so. To disagree with aspects of the economy and the way it's run, and comparing systems considered better, I still don't come out with an inference of 'stupid'.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:37 pm
by usflyer msp
Quoting seb146 (Reply 51):
Except that will not happen. We have a thing called "minimum wage" in this country. Some states are higher than the federal standard. Some illegals work at fast food places. In your scenario, those minimum wage jobs will no longer pay minimum wage. Even though they will.

Huh? That makes no sense.

Illegal workers have shown a propensity to work for substandard wages which ultimately brings wages down across entire industries companies have to be competitive. In theory, if Illegal workers were removed from the job market there would be a scarcity of workers willing to work for substandard wages and employers would have to pay more in order to fill their vacant positions.

This is why, although I am a democrat, I am against immigration reform and amnesties. We need to go to a Canadian Style system that encourages highly skilled immigrants like engineers and discourages low-skill workers like custodians and farm workers. We have plenty of people already in the US can and will perform these low-skill jobs if employers will just pay them right wage...

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:45 pm
by Superfly
Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 54):
This is why, although I am a democrat, I am against immigration reform and amnesties. We need to go to a Canadian Style system that encourages highly skilled immigrants like engineers and discourages low-skill workers like custodians and farm workers.

Agreed.
Maybe we should elect Ted Cruz.   

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:57 pm
by DocLightning
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 20):

Point taken. But I don't know. Are car makers, make cars for the local market (consumer) and we are apparently not buying them, cheaper imports is the reason we are told..... but ?

Honestly, if Australia car manufacturers started more aggressively marketing their products overseas, they'd sell. For one thing, simply being Australian has some rugged cache in the US. That's why Subaru uses the Crocodile Dundee dude and continues to maintain an Australian image, even though Subaru is about as Australian as sushi. That's why Outback Steakhouse is a chain here (I know; you're Australian so you've probably never heard of it and would be horrified if you walked into one).

So if Holden really wanted to market cars in the USA, they could. But the REAL reason why they don't has nothing to do with cost of manufacturing; it has to do with the fact that they are a subsidiary of General Motors. GM already has enough companies in the US marketing cars, so there's no reason to allow Holden to market here and just increase competition against its own parent corporation.

Also, Holden does export, but they do so under other GM brands, such as Chevrolet.

But the bottom line is that it's not about union wages.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:03 pm
by Mir
Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 54):
Illegal workers have shown a propensity to work for substandard wages which ultimately brings wages down across entire industries companies have to be competitive.

Not in the fast food industry - no major chain would risk the bad PR (not to mention legal action) that would come with a policy of hiring illegals and paying them less than minimum wage. So even if there are illegal immigrants working at a fast food restaurant, they are being treated as legal and their costs to the company are the same. Take the illegal immigrants out of the picture and nothing would change - the employees would be legal, but they'd still be making minimum wage.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 54):
In theory, if Illegal workers were removed from the job market there would be a scarcity of workers willing to work for substandard wages and employers would have to pay more in order to fill their vacant positions.

In theory. But also in theory (at least if you listen to certain conservatives), raising the minimum wage will destroy jobs and slow economic growth - one would expect those effects to be the same whether wages are raised through government intervention or just by the principles of supply and demand for very cheap labor. So I can't help but get the feeling that such people are talking out of both sides of their mouths - they say they want wages to be raised through getting illegals out of the job market, but they also don't want wages to be raised because it would increase costs and kill jobs.

-Mir

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:07 pm
by PHX787
Want my opinion, as an ex-pat liviing in a country with an extremely high standard of living?

If those fast food workers want more money as a wage, then they damn well better be bowing to me, speaking to me in the most polite language possible, and deliver the goods without sass, back talk, laziness, or slowness. Service industry already sucks so much here. Partly because of this:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 1):
These workers are in dreamland. Fast Food has always been and will always be a minimum wage job. It essentially requires no skill so their labour is completely and easily replaceable and not worthy of any higher wage. The order-takers are lucky they have not been replaced by machines...

They have no idea how to even serve either. It's so bad.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:11 pm
by connies4ever
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
It's a wonder us stupid Americans ever became the largest, most wealthy economy in the world without government services...quelle horrible!

Never said Americans were stupid. What I implied is that America has made a choice, conscious or otherwise, to not provide social services to those in need in order to keep taxes low -- which really rewards the rich for being rich.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 47):
Except nobody called Americans stupid, apart from you, just then.

Quite.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
Sarcasm obviously, but that's always the implication though however, isn't it? That we're so inept not to have the lavish government services and social benefits like those in Western Europe.

See my initial response. Why is it, then, that the infant mortality rate in the world's richest country, is HIGHER than in Cuba, one of the world's poorest ? I'll let you chew on that.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:37 pm
by Mir
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 58):
If those fast food workers want more money as a wage, then they damn well better be bowing to me, speaking to me in the most polite language possible, and deliver the goods without sass, back talk, laziness, or slowness.

Perhaps if they were paid more they would feel valued enough to actually put some effort into their jobs. Chicken or egg?

-Mir

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:10 pm
by flyguy89
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 59):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
It's a wonder us stupid Americans ever became the largest, most wealthy economy in the world without government services...quelle horrible!

Never said Americans were stupid. What I implied is that America has made a choice,

Yeah, the stupid choice according to you when you go on to conclude this:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 59):
to keep taxes low -- which really rewards the rich for being rich.



You say that's not what you're saying while actually saying it.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 59):
Why is it, then, that the infant mortality rate in the world's richest country, is HIGHER than in Cuba, one of the world's poorest ?

1) The US isn't the only OECD country that was beat by Cuba in this category.

2) We have a welfare system here that incentivizes the poor and ill-equipped to have children, when you have a significant number of poor mothers who are at greater risk for giving birth prematurely, the infant mortality rate is going to be higher...fix this problem and infant mortality rates would quickly fall.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:20 pm
by usflyer msp
Quoting Mir (Reply 57):
Take the illegal immigrants out of the picture and nothing would change - the employees would be legal, but they'd still be making minimum wage.

I would disagree with that assessment.

I will give you the example of Chipotle in here in Minnesota. In 2011, Chipotle was raided by the INS and was forced fire to about 40% of its MN workforce because they were found to be illegal aliens. In response, Chipotle has had to raise its starting wages here from $7.25 to $8.75+ because they were having trouble finding workers (and couldn't hire more illegals because the feds were watching like hawks). I think this would happen nationwide if we took care of our illegal immigration problem...

Quoting Mir (Reply 57):
In theory. But also in theory (at least if you listen to certain conservatives), raising the minimum wage will destroy jobs and slow economic growth - one would expect those effects to be the same whether wages are raised through government intervention or just by the principles of supply and demand for very cheap labor. So I can't help but get the feeling that such people are talking out of both sides of their mouths - they say they want wages to be raised through getting illegals out of the job market, but they also don't want wages to be raised because it would increase costs and kill jobs.

That is because those conservatives are shills for corporate America. Most people are relatively moderate on this issue, I believe. If your business can't survive paying someone a fair wage (like $9/hour) then your business was probably doomed to failure anyway....

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:56 pm
by TheCommodore
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 56):
Honestly, if Australia car manufacturers started more aggressively marketing their products overseas, they'd sell.

From what I understand of the industry, there is a lot at play here, different factors involved from tariff's, to high costs of production, as well as the very high Australian dollar. All working against these manufactures making a profit.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 56):
That's why Subaru uses the Crocodile Dundee dude and continues to maintain an Australian image, even though Subaru is about as Australian as sushi.

Paul Hogan. Yes he's popular with all things Australian including starring in the Tourism Australia add campaign for many many years. Now proudly living in the US with his wife Linda Kowalski. Apparently, like most citizens of a country, he was required to pay taxes, which he didn't like doing because he said they were too high, so he moved to the US !

Rather drastic measure moving country, but money makes people happy so they say !!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 56):
But the bottom line is that it's not about union wages.

Here is a good article outlining the history of the automotive industry in OZ and the reasons for is demise.
As you will read, its because of many things. Wages being one of them.

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4717262.html

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:30 pm
by ha763
Quoting Mir (Reply 60):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 58):
If those fast food workers want more money as a wage, then they damn well better be bowing to me, speaking to me in the most polite language possible, and deliver the goods without sass, back talk, laziness, or slowness.

Perhaps if they were paid more they would feel valued enough to actually put some effort into their jobs. Chicken or egg?

Japanese fast food workers earn about the same as fast food workers in the U.S. (800-900 yen/hour) but still give customers good service because it is demanded of them by their management and they are trained that way. They are actually worse off with the much higher cost of living in Japan, being part time jobs, and being considered contract workers.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:40 pm
by RyanairGuru
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 63):
But the bottom line is that it's not about union wages.

Here is a good article outlining the history of the automotive industry in OZ and the reasons for is demise.
As you will read, its because of many things. Wages being one of them.

You definitely can't rule wages out of the equation, but I do agree with Doc that domestic manufacturing would be more successful if we did export more. But, alas, the Ford Falcon was not designed to integrate a left-hand-drive steering wheel, which is indicative of the narrow mindedness and shortsightedness of the industry.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:46 pm
by connies4ever
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 61):
You say that's not what you're saying while actually saying it.

That is an incorrect inference. What I did say is that America, "consciously or unconsciously" arrived at a state where there is little in the way of social assistance programs, but low taxes. It's not necessarily an indictment, but a reflection of "this is the way it is". To change this situation requires a serious societal debate and then a huge effort. In Canada we never let it get that far (despite the efforts of our current Prime Minister) with the exception of, and I must admit this, our aboriginal people, who are largely living in 3rd world conditions. This is a deep shame.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 61):
1) The US isn't the only OECD country that was beat by Cuba in this category.

2) We have a welfare system here that incentivizes the poor and ill-equipped to have children, when you have a significant number of poor mothers who are at greater risk for giving birth prematurely, the infant mortality rate is going to be higher....fix this problem and infant mortality rates would quickly fall.

Point 1 is quite right. Point 2 revolves around the determination of the Cuban state-run medical system to deliver effective pre- and neonatal care for expectant mothers. This is something not always available to what I would call the "underclass" in the US. It's not always about economics. Education is closely aligned with this situation, and broadly speaking, those in the underclass are effectively ghettoized, and the schools they attend (when they go) are in the main poorly funded and poorly administered. More effective education, particularly w.r.t. reproduction and nutrition issues, would I believe dramatically lower mortality rates.

Would love to have DocLightning's take on this.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:07 am
by Aaron747
Quoting ha763 (Reply 64):
Japanese fast food workers earn about the same as fast food workers in the U.S. (800-900 yen/hour) but still give customers good service because it is demanded of them by their management and they are trained
that way.

Even that isn't really the reason. It is culturally ingrained in Japanese people that they will bring shame to themselves and their entire family if they fail at anything on the job. Older Japanese are decrying the laziness of the young generation here, but the service provided is still far and away better for what people are actually being paid than one would be likely to experience elsewhere.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:56 am
by WarRI1
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 21):
Well, if your degree is in "gender studies", "cultural anthropology" or some other, really useful soft science then having no value on the labor market should not come as a surprise. Not all university degrees guarantee good job and decent pay.

I do not think anyone undertaking such studies, really expects to earn a lot of money.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:02 am
by flyguy89
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 66):
his is something not always available to what I would call the "underclass" in the US. It's not always about economics.

Sure, and I agree with you regarding education...public education is deplorable here in the US, but getting pregnant is not a passive action. Economics also does play a major role when the government creates an economic incentive for mothers in the "underclass" to have more children to increase their welfare allowance.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:15 am
by WarRI1
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 34):
Cost of living in Oz is higher than US (as it is in Canada), but then look at the social services delivered by the government. Of which there are now relatively few in the US. If Ted Cruz or someone similar gets elected in 2016, very quickly there will be none

Absolutely.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 36):
Hate to nitpick, but #1 was Australia. We were the only advanced economy not to slide into recession during the 2008-10 crisis.Please understand, though, that I'm not denying that Canada and Germany performed very strongly during the crisis

How can this be? To read on here, Australia, and anyone paying a living wage in their economy is wacked. I think you folks are 100% correct.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
If we rid ourselves of the millions of illegal aliens maybe the workers bargaining position would become stronger.

Bingo!!! No one on here has ever read a word from me defending Illegal Aliens, Not one word.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 40):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 11):The good old global economy, send your jobs to slave wage countries, and then say we cannot compete when that country produces cheaper.But you have no problem with all of the illegal slave wage earners that we have imported here?

Read above, Not one word of mine has ever supported anyone coming in to the US to take American workers jobs. I take a bunch of shit for just the opposite, defending US workers above anyone else.
   

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:26 am
by WarRI1
Quoting Mortyman (Reply 33):
So what exactly is the pay at McDonalds / Burger King pr. hour in the US ?This was a cool site:

It is interesting. I have a question, how is it that the people of Norway seem to be more satisfied with life than here in the US? To read those numbers seems to suggest that all is not well in Norway. I find it rather interesting that all is not well here, and all seems well in Norway. Maybe a question of fairness in your country, and not so much here for the average person. All is plenty well for the top here, not so much down here where I am, and millions and millions more. I think that 20% here control about 90% of the wealth. 80% control 10% of the wealth That may have something to do with our problems.

[Edited 2013-08-21 20:31:58]

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:36 am
by ozglobal
Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
Well aware of the high cost of living in Australia. WarRI1 is clearly unaware of that.
There is so much 'monkey-see-monkey-do' within the American left-wing. They see 1 think they like in another country (usually a European country) and get on a high-horse and start preaching about "we in America should do the same".

You're conveniently ignoring the Big Mac test vs minutes of work metric in the opening post. This is a cost of living neutral measure of real buying power. Minimum wage in Aus seems to have double the buying power of min wage in the US...

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:05 am
by connies4ever
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 70):
Economics also does play a major role when the government creates an economic incentive for mothers in the "underclass" to have more children to increase their welfare allowance.

I have to disagree. I simply do not see where having another child to get another welfare check gets you ahead. Thdre's lots of poverty in the community where I currently live, and lots of teenage mothers, many with two. They seem to these eyes to be sinking lower and lower, not getting ahead.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:44 pm
by usflyer msp
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 76):
You're conveniently ignoring the Big Mac test vs minutes of work metric in the opening post. This is a cost of living neutral measure of real buying power. Minimum wage in Aus seems to have double the buying power of min wage in the US...

That is really not a good gauge of purchasing power parity. All the Big Mac test says is that Big Mac's are relatively cheap in Australia. To do a valid comparison one would need to use a basket of goods, not justt one item.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:09 pm
by RussianJet
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 52):
And so is using government services and social benefits as a measuring stick.

That's fine, because at no point have I suggested that it would be *the* measuring stick. It's one consideration of many.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:42 pm
by ozglobal
Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 79):
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 76):
You're conveniently ignoring the Big Mac test vs minutes of work metric in the opening post. This is a cost of living neutral measure of real buying power. Minimum wage in Aus seems to have double the buying power of min wage in the US...

That is really not a good gauge of purchasing power parity. All the Big Mac test says is that Big Mac's are relatively cheap in Australia. To do a valid comparison one would need to use a basket of goods, not justt one item.

Then why is it a widely used rule thumb used in macro economics and a proxy for the cost of living?

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:34 pm
by Gingersnap
Quoting Superfly (Reply 48):
Those are Manhattan prices!

Really? Manhattan is cheap.

Social housing in London costs around that much.

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:31 pm
by SA7700
Dear members,

A fair number of posts had to be removed from this thread due to its off-topic nature. Kindly note that this thread was started in order to discuss the wages of fast food workers.

Please stay on topic. If you would like to discuss other industries, please start a new thread and feel free to continue a discussion there.

Regards,

SA7700

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:28 am
by usflyer msp
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 81):

Then why is it a widely used rule thumb used in macro economics and a proxy for the cost of living?

You never here an trained academic talking about the Big Mac Index because the recognize that it really does not mean anything. Look at Hong Kong, its has the third cheapest Big Mac's in the world but it is far from being the third cheapest country in the world to live in. Post people who use the Big Mac index are "pop" economists who use it because its kind of fun and is something tangible that the masses can relate to in their everyday lives...

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:16 am
by WarRI1
When you're as vocal as you are for the union crowd, seemingly speaking on behalf of the "underclass" (not my word), it's hard not to group them in with you. I'd be far more forgiving of this if you actually made an attempt at civil discussion, actually responding to the hard figures posters provide (rather than ignoring them when they are inconvenient to your side of the argument) and not always taking shots at people who are anti-union.


Let me see now. Am I being vocal about union people only? Read the title of this thread and many more I have put on. I do not see any fast food workers who are union. Would I like them to be, rest assured I would. Underclass, most assuredly there are millions here. Hard not to group them with you. Be my guest. Statistics, they can be and are changed like a babies diaper. Economic facts, principles, rules? I know what exploitation, hunger, poverty, lack of opportunity does, those are my guiding rules of economics. Get two economists together, and neither will agree. Watch Fox news Economists, watch CNN Economists, see reality. Most of it is bent, distorted, and molded to their beliefs. Surely down through history and today there are many different theories, and that is what they are theories. I deal in reality, not theory. You cannot eat a theory.

[Edited 2013-08-22 19:17:47]

[Edited 2013-08-22 19:19:45]

[Edited 2013-08-22 21:48:12 by SA7700]

RE: Fast Food Workers To Strike For Higher Wages

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:10 am
by Kiwirob
I don't se a problem with raising the mimimum wage for fast food workers, that would mean the price for fast food would also increase, which would (hopefully) lower demand, cause a few chubbies to eat less, save on medical costs, the benefits would be felt by all.

BTW fast food in the US is ridiciously cheap. Two big mac meals and two happy meals costs about 22 USD, which is about the price of a single big mac meal in Norway.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 27):
Those types of jobs aren't supposed to be jobs to make a "career" out of or earn a living from.

Not true, a guy I worked with at McDonalds 20 years ago now owns 5 or 6 McDonalds stores, he's never been to university, he was offered a management trainee course and bought his first franchise a few years later whilst still in his mid 20's.