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seb146
Posts: 24068
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:17 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 46):
A noble idea, sometimes abused, but absolutely, positively needed when disaster strikes

I like your definition, but it says nothing about what goes into it. The right loves to hate "welfare" and puts so many things under that umbrella. I would like to know what the OP considers "welfare".

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
All of them cost me money, so I really don't care that much.

I hope you have to live on the streets for a whole year. I say that so you can understand what real people have to go through.

Better yet, go into the military for four years or more. You can work your tail off in the military and, even then, you might not get what you want. No matter how hard you work.
 
Superfly
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:10 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47):
If you want to get to that level then you need to start classes on personal finance in the 7th grade and continue each year.

You mean taught by a school system that's always in debt? You have some teachers that don't have a basic understanding of personal finance.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 38):
Listen, I'm all for personal responsibility, but if you want to buy the name brands you like,

Hold on a minute. Some products are only name brand. I haven't heard of food stamp recipients buying expensive food ever being a problem. The problem is those few that sale their food stamps for ca$h money.
Minute Maid orange juice is a name brand. I'm sure most who use food stamps buy a lot of items that are on sale at a discount to make their food stamps stretch. Sure a few items in their basket may be of a name brand and that doesn't bother me. Many are able to make them stretch an entire month and have a few name brand items. If someone receiving food stamps can make their benefit last an entire month while buying a single bottle of extra virgin olive oil (which usually last more than a month) and/or one goose liver pâté (usually $4) then I say more power to them!
If they're managing properly and are able to buy a few nice food items in the process then I see no reason to complain.
It's not like you see these people shopping at Whole Foods. Most food stamp recipients already shop at discounted, bulk item groceries stores such as Foods 4 Less or FoodsCo and similar places.
 
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seb146
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:36 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 51):
You mean taught by a school system that's always in debt?

According to some, defunding is the best way to make an education system.
 
BMI727
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:45 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 52):
According to some, defunding is the best way to make an education system.

Who? Names and quotes please.
 
N1120A
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:08 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 3):
That pretty well demonstrates a need to change minimum wage and employer costs. It is pure folly that employers are stuck with the financial burden of nanny care and that they need to use that relief to pay above the poverty line. Otherwise you are going to exceed this grow even higher.

Exactly. The reason welfare is more than the minimum wage is because the minimum wage is not a living wage.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:04 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
But there aren't enough higher paying jobs to transition to. Not everyone can be a doctor/lawyer/engineer...or even a plumber/mechanic. Yes, some people can make the transition, but many will be stuck in low-wage jobs no matter how hard they work.

Not just this, but, as our HR chief said once to a gifted unlicenced mechanic, when he denied this guys application for a programme which would get him his licence, "We need labourers too". He wanted to have people being able to do all jobs on the aircraft, with the exception of signing for the work. These people would be paid unskilled labourer´s wages because they cannot present a qualification paper or a licence. His ideal was 20+ cheap unlicenced mechanics doing the work and one (expensive) guy with a licence (FAA A&P or EASA B1) just sitting in the office signing the technical logbooks and task cards.

I never took wellfare all my life, I have only been contributing to the funds. Still I regard it as an essential safety net.
There are people who abuse the system, e.g. drawing welfare and having an illegal (no taxes paid) job on the side. In this case the government should come down hard on both the illegal worker and his employer (who is saving his shares in social security contributions and manages to undercut his legally operating competition).

One problem I see is with do gooders or lazy perswons in positions at the welfare office. E.g. long ago my then wife (freshly married) received wellfare for her two children from bprevious husbands (who couldn´t or didn´t pay child support). Since we were married and she wasn´t working, I also had to give my income details to the welfare office, though I never claimed welfare for myself. Now, after finishing my apprenticeship, I was looking for a job, but couldn´t find any in Germany, only in Ireland. I informed the welfare office about my plans for moving abroad to start working and that then I would have to pay a certain percentage of my income to them to compensate for the welfare payments to my then-wife. the welfare office woman seriously told me that I should better apply for welfare and stay unemployed in Germany, because going through the various EU laws and rules concerning incomes earned abroad (and especially the living expenses I would need for myself in Ireland) was too much work for her.
Ok, I also have to say that my ex was a welfare queen, who knew how to work the system and who expected to gto through life with having somebody else pay for her, let it be the government or a husband. This is one of the reasons why we divorced a few years later. For me welfare is always a temporary safety net in case everything else fails, not something to live on permanently.

Jan
 
Mike89406
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:40 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 50):

"Better yet, go into the military for four years or more. You can work your tail off in the military and, even then, you might not get what you want. No matter how hard you work".

Not sure what you're getting at, however I know many people who did well in the military including myself. My family never had money and couldn't afford college. I'm a living testimony of how some one can do a career in the military and finish college at the same time. People who weren't successful in the military or out of it didn't try to better they're life one way or another.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:19 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
If 50% of all jobs are low-wage, then a lot of people will be stuck in them for most of their lives.

And, to quote Judge Smalls "...the world needs ditch diggers, too."

I'm not trying to be flippant, but there you have it. Not everyone can be in a high paying job. Not everyone one can have a everything or even a fraction of what they want. Some will succeed and some will fail.

I hate to say this, but some people will fail even though they make most of the right decisions. Even though they choose the right path. Even if they are hard working and conscientious. These are the people that the social safety nets should be in place to help.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
But trying to code in all the "brands" that are allowed and not allowed would be highly cost prohibitive.

You've heard of computers, right? Listen, if Kroger can match digital coupons off my phone to my rewards card and give me the discount at the POS, then I don't see a problem with the system bouncing Grey Poupon when you try to buy it using an EBT card.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 39):
A splurge here or there is not a bad thing if you are saving overall and living within the constraint of the Food stamp.

You can use cash for those events or times where you feel you can fall off the wagon.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47):
When you talk about that you have to start with the training program. The best example I have seen was the apprenticeship program at Qantas for their engineers.

While I fully support apprenticeship programs and the like, you misunderstand what I mean by training. Minimum wage employers tend to be training grounds to teach young folks how to be employees. How to get to work on time. How to be responsible. How work is supposed to reward you. How to treat another's property as your own. How to work well with others. How to move to a common goal (usually set by someone else).

You know...all the stuff that parents and schools should teach...all those things are reinforced during the first years of anyone's employment.

If you can find that in a structured apprenticeship program...bully for you. They are not nearly as common in the US as they should be. The reasons for that sad state of affairs is for another thread, but I do laud the trade unions for being a big part of those programs.

But, flipping burgers at McDonald's or working in the school library or admissions office or dishing ice cream at Carvel's or working in a furniture repair place or selling gizmos at Radio Shack will suffice for learning those life skills. By the way...those are all jobs I did, from age 16 and on, for minimum wage (or less), learning those important skills.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47):
And you don't - so why not raise it to a level where decent people can get by?

Why is that the responsibility of the employer?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 47):
You are exceptionally fortunate - just look at those families trying to make it on what you considered "play money".

Then, they need to improve their condition. Those families need to reevaluate what they are doing. Why is an adult working at a minimum wage job? What put that person in that position? Sometimes it's something out of their control, but I'd suggest that it was lifestyle decisions that brought many to that point.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 51):
Some products are only name brand.

Then you buy the product or that particular product is disallowed. Can anyone tell me: is alcohol allowed under SNAP?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 51):
Most food stamp recipients already shop at discounted, bulk item groceries stores such as Foods 4 Less or FoodsCo and similar places.

It should be all food stamp recipients. We had a discussion about this a few years ago:

http://www.salon.com/2010/03/16/hipsters_food_stamps_pinched/

An old article, but, I suspect it still occurs, in large numbers, in some communities.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 50):
I hope you have to live on the streets for a whole year. I say that so you can understand what real people have to go through.

Because in order to be a "real" person you have to live on the streets?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 50):
Better yet, go into the military for four years or more. You can work your tail off in the military and, even then, you might not get what you want. No matter how hard you work.

Yup, sometimes you don't get what you want. Sometimes you don't even get what you need...that's what welfare should support...the need, not the want.

[Edited 2013-08-23 05:38:23]
 
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casinterest
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:14 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 57):
You can use cash for those events or times where you feel you can fall off the wagon.

Bbut a can of brown mustard compared to the price per poind for chicken/pork is miniscule , unless you are some kind of mustard fiend, in which case I present the 12 pack

http://www.walmart.com/ip/24491486?w...4=&wl5=pla&wl6=50618477796&veh=sem

Also a lot of stores price meet and other vege's based on quality. Do we force the poor to buy the ultra fat burgers vs the lean burgers that are $2 more per pound? It's not just about the individual, but the children, and for quite a few people welfare is temporary, and not permanent.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:24 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 58):
Also a lot of stores price meet and other vege's based on quality. Do we force the poor to buy the ultra fat burgers vs the lean burgers that are $2 more per pound? It's not just about the individual, but the children, and for quite a few people welfare is temporary, and not permanent.

I'm just about positive that Kroger has a store brand lean beef. I'll check later.

The point is, that we need to encourage (force) SNAP, WIC , whatever recipients to be more frugal with the money we give them. They should be good stewards of our money. Maybe they can be a role model for our politicians.
 
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seb146
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:33 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 57):
I hate to say this, but some people will fail even though they make most of the right decisions. Even though they choose the right path. Even if they are hard working and conscientious. These are the people that the social safety nets should be in place to help

Better not let people like BMI hear that kind of talk. Those people you describe are lazy and ignorant and left wing voters to people like BMI. We would not want to shatter their illusion they have built.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 58):
Do we force the poor to buy the ultra fat burgers vs the lean burgers that are $2 more per pound?

Fresh fruits and lean meats are expensive. Crap food is cheap. I think that is stupid. All this talk about how eating healthy makes people less likely to contract cancers and various other ailments, yet we make it difficult for people to eat healthy. I don't get that.
 
Superfly
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:11 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 57):
Then you buy the product or that particular product is disallowed.

So the generic store brand of a pound of sugar is sold out and the only sugar left is C&H sugar which is a name brand. You're saying that these people can't buy the C&H sugar which cost a whopping .10 cents more than the generic brand?
I can understand your frustrations with some welfare recipients that abuse the system but this is just sounding ridiculous.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 57):
Can anyone tell me: is alcohol allowed under SNAP?

No it is not allowed. Nor is deli items cooked in the store.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:19 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 60):
All this talk about how eating healthy makes people less likely to contract cancers and various other ailments, yet we make it difficult for people to eat healthy.

It's always someone else's fault is it?
 
usflyer msp
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:28 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 61):
I can understand your frustrations with some welfare recipients that abuse the system but this is just sounding ridiculous.

I concur. That is absurd. On a policy note, I think that is overly intrusive into poor families' domestic lives. What they eat is their own business. If I remember correctly, the poster suggesting this is one of the people that were up in arms about Bloomberg banning Big Gulps...how is this any less intrusive?

On a practical note, it is just not realistic. So if the grocery store has a sale where them name brand product is cheaper or has a coupon in the paper, they can't buy it? How is that teaching people to be good stewards of their resources?
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:26 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 61):
So the generic store brand of a pound of sugar is sold out and the only sugar left is C&H sugar which is a name brand. You're saying that these people can't buy the C&H sugar which cost a whopping .10 cents more than the generic brand?
I can understand your frustrations with some welfare recipients that abuse the system but this is just sounding ridiculous.

They could always come back and get the generic, it's what I do when the store is out of the brand I like. But, 10 cents isn't that much of a big deal. But, what about the buck-thirty or so on the difference between Cheerios and Toasted Oats? What about 60 or 70 cent difference in Grey Poupon vs. Dijon Mustard? How about Sergento Cheddar Cheese vs. Kroger Cheddar? That's like a $2 difference.

I want the people using my money to be required to use it wisely.

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 63):
I think that is overly intrusive into poor families' domestic lives.

Then, they shouldn't be asking for my money. Government money should come with strings attached. Big, long strings with knots in them.

It should be hard. People should want to actively try and get away from the system because of the restrictions.
Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 63):
If I remember correctly, the poster suggesting this is one of the people that were up in arms about Bloomberg banning Big Gulps...how is this any less intrusive?

I actually don't remember if I posted there...probably did. The difference: if I were using government money to buy Big Gulps, Bloomberg could ban it all he wanted. My money, my choice. Why is that hard?

[Edited 2013-08-23 12:32:25]
 
Flighty
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:26 pm

Welfare should be an opportunity to get job experience splitting rocks, excavating roads and emptying bedpans of the elderly and profoundly handicapped.

Let people work for their money - and pay taxes out of that money. This free money thing is ludicrous. It also causes urban decay, contemptuous sloths and violence in the young boys. Let them scrub bedpans clean, and then work their way up, if they have ambitions of having their own home, cars etc.

Government programs should be there -- but they should not be giveaways.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:36 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 65):
Welfare should be an opportunity to get job experience splitting rocks, excavating roads and emptying bedpans of the elderly and profoundly handicapped.

Let people work for their money - and pay taxes out of that money. This free money thing is ludicrous. It also causes urban decay, contemptuous sloths and violence in the young boys. Let them scrub bedpans clean, and then work their way up, if they have ambitions of having their own home, cars etc.

Government programs should be there -- but they should not be giveaways.

A lot of people on welfare already have jobs, or they are incapable of work. Most have families, and then what would you do with the kids?

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/
 
darthluke12694
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:38 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 64):
They could always come back and get the generic, it's what I do when the store is out of the brand I like.

Let's see if I have this straight. You're going to force people to come back and get the generic brand. So you would rather have people pay for the gas, bus, etc to make a special trip to the store, or a different store? So you want people to pay $3.00 or more for gas, just to save a few cents? Wow.... I agree with what you are saying, but I think it is a little too far.
 
Superfly
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:45 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 63):
If I remember correctly, the poster suggesting this is one of the people that were up in arms about Bloomberg banning Big Gulps...how is this any less intrusive?

He also thinks it's his right to poke his nose in people's personal finances if they are considered for a job offer. We're not talking about top level staff either. He suggested that even for the guy in the mail room and receptionist.
Completely over the top.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 65):
Welfare should be an opportunity to get job experience splitting rocks, excavating roads and emptying bedpans of the elderly and profoundly handicapped.

What if they don't pass Fr8mech's credit check?   

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 64):
But, what about the buck-thirty or so on the difference between Cheerios and Toasted Oats?

Give it a rest. Go to your nearest ghetto grocery store and I bet the vast majority on food stamps are buying generic items and/or items on sale.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 64):
Then, they shouldn't be asking for my money. Government money should come with strings attached.

It already does.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 64):
They could always come back and get the generic, it's what I do when the store is out of the brand I like.

That is just nuts! Don't expect others to be that idiosyncratic (I'm being polite with this one) .
It would be a waste of time & gas for them to make two (or even three) trips to the store to save $2 on an item.
They'd lose any savings in gas or bus/train fare.


Come to think of it, welfare probably has always paid more than minimum wage. Welfare (AFDC) amounts is dependent on the amount of children you have when coming on to the program. At the bare minimum, it's to cover two people - the mother and child. A family of 3 children will obviously get a higher amount if they come on to the program with 3 children they already had prior to signing up.
Minimum wage is just one person's income. So of course welfare will be more.
Regardless, it's silly to make this argument. Welfare is intended to be a temporary fix. Minimum wage jobs aren't intended to be career or long-term jobs.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:19 pm

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 67):
Wow.... I agree with what you are saying, but I think it is a little too far.

Yeah, that is a little too far, but I'm being a bit outrageous to make a point. The preferred purchase should always be the cheapest. If a store sells 2 equivalent items, but one is cheaper, that is the one that EBT should pay for.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 68):
He also thinks it's his right to poke his nose in people's personal finances

Yup, if I'm going to pay you to do a job, I think I should have the right to know whether you are reliable or not.

Have you ever been involved in terminating someone's employment because his personal finances interfered with his work? He used his company credit card to pay for his personal expenses, while using his cash to pay for his credit cards, then using a cash advance from his credit card to pay back the company credit card. In other words, he was floating cash from the company card...or his card depending on how you look at it.

What do you think we found when we pulled his pre-employment package and looked at his pre-employment credit report?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 68):
Give it a rest. Go to your nearest ghetto grocery store and I bet the vast majority on food stamps are buying generic items and/or items on sale.

That's the way it should be. They should be buying the generics and cheapest, where available.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 68):
It already does

Not enough.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 68):
Welfare is intended to be a temporary fix.

  

Quoting Superfly (Reply 68):
Minimum wage jobs aren't intended to be career or long-term jobs.

     
 
Ken777
Posts: 10197
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:05 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 48):
What about a healthy pregnant woman?

That depends on the state I guess.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 51):
You mean taught by a school system that's always in debt?

Generally school systems get funding from property taxes or through voters voting them money in one way or another. Debt in the school systems is basically a failure of the community to man up and deliver the funding necessary.

Then of course there is federal funding to education, put there is huge pressure there.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 51):
You have some teachers that don't have a basic understanding of personal finance.

There are all kinds of teachers, just like there all kinds in other professions. I had some fantastic teachers. These days the situation is different With women having far ore opportunities that when I was in school you can see them move up. The good teachers of my youth might now go into law or some other profession.

That puts a lot of pressure on getting really bright people to go into teaching. The costs of the university education is the same as, say, an accounting or finance major, but the compensation will be far less. Then add in the demands of continuing education (meaning a of of teachers have a masters minimum), contractual requirements that teachers have do participate in out of hours work like a history teaching "coaching" girl's softball

Quoting Superfly (Reply 51):
Sure a few items in their basket may be of a name brand and that doesn't bother me. Many are able to make them stretch an entire month and have a few name brand items

Brand names are where you get the coupons. For a long time we had a grocers who paid double on coupons, ho to $1. There was even a show on TV where women were Coupon Masters, getting hundreds of dollars worth of coupons for under $20. All brand names. Brand names can easily be the way to go if your have the coupons. Might make it worth buying the Sunday paper just to get the coupons, getting other benefits actuallyu reading some other bits.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 60):
Better not let people like BMI hear that kind of talk.

I don't tink BMI is aware of the very large number of engineers and other professionals that have been victims of downsizing in the past - like during the Bush I years where mid and upper level managers were the victims of downsizing. He believes that as long as he works hard he'll be fine. Just like those engineers working just as hard who did get downsized.
 
darthluke12694
Posts: 185
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:47 am

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:27 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 69):
Yeah, that is a little too far, but I'm being a bit outrageous to make a point. The preferred purchase should always be the cheapest. If a store sells 2 equivalent items, but one is cheaper, that is the one that EBT should pay for.

Wasn't sure if you were trying to make a point or not. Glad you were. The only problem with that is creating a system that can do that. That will become very expensive and complicated very fast. But I understand what you are saying and I agree to a point.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24068
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:02 am

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 56):
My family never had money and couldn't afford college. I'm a living testimony of how some one can do a career in the military and finish college at the same time. People who weren't successful in the military or out of it didn't try to better they're life one way or another.

I know I could never survive military. I never tried. However, I like having a paycheck, socialization, and eating. All of us do. Some of us get a doctorate in physics, some of us drive big rigs, some of us go into the military, some of us marry. We are all different.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 57):
Because in order to be a "real" person you have to live on the streets?

I want the loudest complainers to get the extreme treatment. There are those who "get it" by simply visiting a poor neighborhood and others who can not even try to think outside their view until they are actually living an alternate life.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 62):
It's always someone else's fault is it?

In this case, it is. We the people can not set the prices for fresh produce and low-fat meats. Sure, we can choose to eat healthy. That is not a problem. However, when we can get Totino's pizzas 4 for $5 as opposed to fish and lean meat for $20, what will people go for?
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:45 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 69):
I should have the right to know whether you are reliable or not.

Which will not be determined in a credit report. We went over this already.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 69):
Yup, if I'm going to pay you to do a job, I think I should have the right to know whether you are reliable or not.

Have you ever been involved in terminating someone's employment because his personal finances interfered with his work? He used his company credit card to pay for his personal expenses, while using his cash to pay for his credit cards, then using a cash advance from his credit card to pay back the company credit card. In other words, he was floating cash from the company card...or his card depending on how you look at it.

What do you think we found when we pulled his pre-employment package and looked at his pre-employment credit report?

Sounds like you were dealing with a crook.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 70):
Generally school systems get funding from property taxes or through voters voting them money in one way or another. Debt in the school systems is basically a failure of the community to man up and deliver the funding necessary.

Are you kidding? On just about every election in just about every state, there is a bond measure to increase funding for schools. They always win in landslides. The US funds public eduction more than almost any other country in the world. The worse off schools get the most money.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 70):
The good teachers of my youth might now go into law or some other profession.

Same here. Today those good teachers would have been fired or thrown in jail for spanking a lot of these bad @ss kids or offending someone...

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 70):
Brand names are where you get the coupons. For a long time we had a grocers who paid double on coupons, ho to $1.

  
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:58 pm

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 71):
The only problem with that is creating a system that can do that.

I'm not a computer type, but I don't see where that would be a real hurdle. Like I said earlier, Kroger is able to match the digital coupon on my phone to my Kroger card. When I check out using the card, the coupon is automatically applied...no card or coupon; no discount.

Why couldn't the POS system have certain SKU's inputted that are bounced if the purchaser uses an EBT card? I envision 2 balances at the check-out...the first is paid by the EBT and the 2nd is a cash payment for items not covered by (insert welfare program here) or disallowed because there are less expensive alternatives.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Sat Aug 24, 2013 1:32 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 70):
He believes that as long as he works hard he'll be fine.

Unfortunately he thinks he is in a 40 year career field - and will be shocked to learn in 20 years his training and skills are considered out of date and unwanted. While he is working at McDonalds and training to be a 'service industry professional' in his mid-40s - I doubt he will remember what he's posted here.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24068
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:30 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 74):
Why couldn't the POS system have certain SKU's inputted that are bounced if the purchaser uses an EBT card?

They do. When I go to any supermarket, it says on my receipt how much I could have paid for using EBT/food stamps. I have been in line next to someone buying food and bathroom products. They have to pay cash, debit or credit for the bathroom accessories but use EBT/food stamps for the actual food. If they don't have enough cash to cover the non-food items, they put back non-food items.
 
Ken777
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:05 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 72):
I know I could never survive military.

That depends on the service you choose. I went into the Navy because of the "See The World" nature of the service. Boot Camp was not really that physical and I asked for sea duty, which they happily gave me.

I did get to see the world, at least the Pacific side and that time was well worth it. The only difficult for some on the ship was having to wake up at 7 AM.  
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 75):
Unfortunately he thinks he is in a 40 year career field - and will be shocked to learn in 20 years his training and skills are considered out of date and unwanted.

SOme fields are even worse - think computer engineering. Smart companies had ongoing teaching to keep their engineers up to date. At one point HP would send their engineers to class a half day every week. Now that's smart.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:25 pm

Reading through this one comment stuck out...

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 28):
When I was working minimum wage jobs (high school and some college), the minimum wage was $3.35. There was no expectation that I live on that. It was pocket money. It was cash to go on dates or to a movie or pay for gas.

This was the minimum wage from 1981 to 1990. So if we look at the inflation rate over time that would mean the $3.35 in 1981 is equal to $8.61 today. Does that mean the minimum wage should be at least that at this point?

I am all for a complete rework of assistance programs like welfare. Let's set the compensation rate at or just below the minimum wage level. Then in order to receive assistance you are required to work at least 30-40 hours for the local government. This means you are going to be out landscaping, tearing down blighted buildings, fixing potholes, answer phone calls, doing light office work, meter reading...whatever. Your very basic, entry-level jobs. Setup the program to include job skills training and resume writing classes. Each person has 6-9 months to transition out of the program into real employment out of the system. They must maintain a job out of the system for at least 18 months before they could reapply for funds.

What this accomplishes is that it focuses us, the taxpayer, to get something for our money. For the person on assistance it provides them with job experience they can use to transition back to the workforce.

The one exception I would put on this would be the unemployment system. There are times when people are going to be laid off or cut backs happen and just need time to apply to a new company. In that situation I would see unemployment benefits be available for up to 6 months, with no government work requirement, and then an 18 month waiting limit on being able to file for unemployment again unless they were 1) with the company for at least 6 months and 2) unreasonably discharged by the company.

We complain about neighborhoods falling apart and such. We have 4.3 million people that we can use to put to work. That would be huge to put 4% of the people back to work. That would mean we are getting something from our annual $131 billion in taxpayer dollars which works out to over $30k per year per recipient on average.

The next part would be to tackle those on food stamps and why people need to be in the first place. $78 billion spent in food stamps or $133 per month. This is tough as I go back and forth on how to handle it. I would almost say just nix the entire program completely. People are going to need to live within their means or do what is needed to improve themselves.

If there is someone on assistance or those with little to no income (for tax purposes) you can get a free associates degree - at least - right now at any community college using Pell grants. That's up to $5500 in free tuition the government will give you to go to school and make yourself better. Perhaps that should be a requirement for those looking for assistance. If you want welfare or food stamps, and you haven't exhausted your Pell grant limits, then you can get your benefits working only 20-30 hours a week but must be enrolled full time with a GPA average of 2.5 or better to continue to receive.
 
Mike89406
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:05 pm

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:26 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 72):
Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 56):
My family never had money and couldn't afford college. I'm a living testimony of how some one can do a career in the military and finish college at the same time. People who weren't successful in the military or out of it didn't try to better they're life one way or another.

I know I could never survive military. I never tried. However, I like having a paycheck, socialization, and eating. All of us do. Some of us get a doctorate in physics, some of us drive big rigs, some of us go into the military, some of us marry. We are all different.

Society needs them all without them where would we get our fast food, yard work, space programs and so on.

You don't need to join the military to be successful, and its not for everyone. Whatever you do in life make the best of it.

Before I joined the military I had been working since my freshman year anything from shoveling snow, odd jobs, paper boy, roofing summer jobs for youth, salesman, Auto Mechanic.

I went to Job Corps after graduating High School to learn Business and Auto Mechanics. Being a Forest Service run Job Corps center they recruited seasonal fire fighters. I had to pass a physical fitness test and made it. Needless to say I made pretty good money at the time and enjoyed it although its no for the lighthearted. A lot of adrenaline moments and camping out.

The military was a stepping stone in my life. Like Ken777 said it depends on what you do. I was an Aviation Mechanic in the Navy (hardly a combat job. I suppose if I had joined the Army, Marines, or Special Forces (basically anything combat) life would've been much different. A good chunk of military are young out of high school with little or no job experience, and no work ethic I didn't join til I was old enough to drink.

The service isn't for impoverished people contrary to popular belief there were a few people that came from the ghetto, most of them come from regular lower-middle class families and a good chunk of them could've went to college instead, and upper class backgrounds. Some people came in just to get away from home at 17-18 and get a life education, some wanted to serve, have a check in the box for federal/civilian jobs etc...

I don't regret joining because once I got past boot camp and Tech school life got easier. I didn't have to march in formation etc... All I had to worry about was going to work figuring out what daily and unscheduled maintenance gripes needed to be fixed on the airplane. Sometimes we had the occasional unsafe landing gear indication, or hydraulic failure. I think the worst part was probably when we had a a broke jet and had to work overtime to get it up and flying the check flight or phased inspections.

My point is no matter what you do don't settle for the bare minimum make a life for yourself. Not everyone is going to well off or successful but eventually a person can better they're situation if they have patience and don't give up. Some people need assistance and it's there to help them. But there's people that abuse the system you know the ones that rent to own the nice TV's entertainment systems,and furniture when they get they're checks/

If you want to live off of entitlements then you're not in control of life. I only took food stamps once when I was 18 and was ashamed of it. In fact I hate asking people for money because I have too much pride.

There are three types of people in this world: those who make things happen, those who watch things happen, and those who wonder what happened. Get busy living or get busy dying.

[Edited 2013-08-24 15:07:30]
 
JoePatroni707
Posts: 474
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:09 pm

Interesting event in the USA today, that fast food workers in 58 cities have gone on strike demanding a minimum wage of $15.00 per hour. IMHO thats way too much for a fast food worker. You took the job knowing what it paid, now live with it. Fast food never has been or will it ever be a job to support one self, its a job for a teen in school, extra pocket money, etc.
I personally think the minumum wage is fine where it is, or perhaps should be repealed. Let the market place decide how much a job is worth.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...13/08/28/low-wage-workers/2711379/
 
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WarRI1
Topic Author
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:52 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 80):
I personally think the minumum wage is fine where it is, or perhaps should be repealed. Let the market place decide how much a job is worth.

This does not surprise me, nor millions more if asked. Let the market decide how much a job is worth. Evidently not much as we can see. Minimum wages are Serf wages today. It is funny, when I look around, I do not see Serfs, I see my fellow humans. Somehow, I cannot forget that. I wonder why I feel like that, and so many do not quite obviously. (Note) I used the term Serf, not what I wanted to use.  
 
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seb146
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Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:25 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 80):
thats way too much for a fast food worker. You took the job knowing what it paid, now live with it.

Some people have no choice. Some people take that only job because they need to feed their family. Knowing full well they will be yelled at, be assaulted, be told and treated like they are worthless. All because they feel the need to contribute and support themselves.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 79):
no matter what you do don't settle for the bare minimum make a life for yourself.

Again, some have no choice. Most people do use fast food as a stepping stone. People think retail is so much better. It's not. It is just the same. A way to support oneself and their family.

The husband and I went to San Francisco last weekend and saw Priscilla: The Musical, based on the Australian movie "The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert". After, we went to eat. Knowing the workers were not paid much, and how much we paid, I still say we got a deal. We were good with it. And we left a tip.
 
Mike89406
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:05 pm

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:07 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 82):

Which is why i followed up the sentence with...Not everyone is going to well off or successful as the next person. A person can better they're situation if they have patience and don't give up. Some people need assistance and it's there to help them.

I'm not saying you shouldn't take a job with minimum wage. What I meant is don't settle for minimum wage career wise if you can help it. There's always a way to improve you're life if you're able and can see past whatever situation you're in. There are people physically/ mentally incapable, or too old to do anything about it. Like you said its a stepping stone, at least min. wage was for me.

I also said you need laborers as much as you need blue collar/ white collar jobs.

They aren't getting a $15.00 minimum/hr wage. Probably an increase but not doubling it. As much as I feel for them something like that would cause a domino effect middle class strikes etc. people will see what real inflation for goods are like and 15.00 an hour wouldn't do much good.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24068
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:56 am

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 83):
Not everyone is going to well off or successful as the next person

Yes. No matter how hard that some people work, they will just never get half as much as the other guy.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 83):
something like that would cause a domino effect middle class strikes etc. people will see what real inflation for goods are like

Problem is, in this day and age, inflation will happen because the top 5% want to keep even more than what they have. They will pass it on to everyone else instead of realizing we are humans and want to survive too. That person flipping burgers because s/he has no choice is making a fortune for the person at the top. How much of that windfall does that burger flipper see? None. S/he does all the work and gets zero reward.
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4115
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:23 am

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 83):
They aren't getting a $15.00 minimum/hr wage. Probably an increase but not doubling it. As much as I feel for them something like that would cause a domino effect middle class strikes etc. people will see what real inflation for goods are like and 15.00 an hour wouldn't do much good.

I just wonder why a job I started in the late 90s making $9/hr is still paying people $9/hr starting when inflation would make that nearly $13 by now. It's no wonder the work poor and lower-middle class has grown so much in our country. Wages don't keep up with the cost of living, but we are just suppose to deal with it. It would be one thing if the currency was stagnant or had slight deflation, but unfortunately that's not the case.

Though...with all these people making minimum wage and supporting at least one other person, how many have applied to go to a community college or educational facility to expand their skills. As long as their taxable income gets below a certain about (and they aren't claimed by their parents), they are going to qualify for $5600/yr in Pell Grants for 4 years to go to school. More than enough to get an associates from a community college nad half plenty left over to cover part of a bachelors.

I'm not sure what more can be done to provide an incentive to people to pursue that, since the money is a grant (no payback) already. Perhaps $7.25/hr if you aren't in school or have at least 2 years complete...$9.50/hr if you have 2 years/assoc degree complete at an accredited institution.
 
Mike89406
Posts: 1425
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:05 pm

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:36 am

Ok let's put it this way. They get the what they want then the dollar value will drop. That 15/hr would have nearly the same buying power as what they were making. What would that accomplish?

What would the supply and demand be for fast food? They could hire 3rd world workers or automate, unemployment would rise. People would do more grocery shopping instead of eating out. That Island Burger would be double or triple tge price. Not to mention Stagflation.
 
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Dreadnought
Posts: 10201
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:05 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 84):
Problem is, in this day and age, inflation will happen because the top 5% want to keep even more than what they have.

No, Inflation happens when the government spends more than it can afford, and prints money to cover the difference.

And to top it all off, the US government (and others) keeps redefining how inflation is measured, in order to lie to the people that inflation really isn't happening. But if inflation were measured today using the same methodology used in the carter years, the US CPI inflation rate would be around 10%, rather than the preposterous 2% the government tells us. Anyone who goes grocery shopping, buys gas or rents an apartment knows that 2% is bullsh&t.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42551209

http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts
 
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seb146
Posts: 24068
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:17 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 87):
Inflation happens when the government spends more than it can afford, and prints money to cover the difference.

Says the person who didn't have a problem when it happened 2001-2009.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 86):
What would the supply and demand be for fast food? They could hire 3rd world workers or automate, unemployment would rise. People would do more grocery shopping instead of eating out.

I am asking this as an academic: What about Safeway vs. WinCo? Union vs. employee owned? Fast food would never dare do that, but I just wonder what would happen? When I lived in PDX, I would shop WinCo (employee owned) because they had better prices versus Safeway or Fred Meyer (union) who had higher prices. I support unions, but employee owned who give themselves benefits is just as good.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:03 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 88):
Says the person who didn't have a problem when it happened 2001-2009.

Says the person who makes stuff like this up when he's against the corner.

Show me a single post in the past 10 years where I have said that GWB was a perfect, or even good, steward of our economy (aka one I "don't have any problem with").
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5556
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:56 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 87):
But if inflation were measured today using the same methodology used in the carter years, the US CPI inflation rate would be around 10%, rather than the preposterous 2% the government tells us. Anyone who goes grocery shopping, buys gas or rents an apartment knows that 2% is bullsh&t.

While I agree 2% is a bit low, anyone claiming a 10% inflation rate has no credibility whatsoever either.
 
smittyone
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:52 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 87):
No, Inflation happens when the government spends more than it can afford, and prints money to cover the difference.

Work (which currency represents) currently being done or to be done in the future is more valuable to a society than work already done in the past. That is why currency loses value through inflation if you don't reinvest it in something productive.

Printing a bunch of money to cover overspending just makes it worse!
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14834
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:45 pm

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 86):
They get the what they want then the dollar value will drop. That 15/hr would have nearly the same buying power as what they were making.

In France (and other European countries) salaries roughly follow inflation, it is even mandatory for the minimum wage (and all wages in Belgium I believe). Still, the euro hasn't dropped, which is a big problem for many countries. You can argue it has in fact dropped, but the dollar has dropped as much, I guess.

Meanwhile economists mostly argue we should all get paid less to become "more competitive", in a great race to the bottom.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:08 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 91):
Work (which currency represents) currently being done or to be done in the future is more valuable to a society than work already done in the past. That is why currency loses value through inflation if you don't reinvest it in something productive.

Printing a bunch of money to cover overspending just makes it worse!

The money was not printed just to cover overspending. It was printed to get interest rates low and stay low so that employment and the economy would recover. Money has to be printed as the value of the items it represent increase, and the size of the workforce increases. The end of QE3 is now moving us to an area where hopefully the economy will take over and grow. When that happens, inflation will need to be tamed by raising interest rates for borrowing. At first through, items will get more expensive just because the value of what people hold in savings will be worth more when it is earning money. They will use this money to buy items at higher prices which will push inflation higher and increase demand for workers. This will continue , until savings are exhausted, and folks are overextended on overpriced loans. Then we will circle back in the cycle.


Printing money has value.

Taxes and Revenue will benefit from higher interest rates as all that money that is sitting in savings doing nothing will become revenue generators as the economy goes forward.

The next three months will be difficult as we watch the TP screw once again with the natural progression of money , taxes and a recovery by pushing forth a worthless agenda.
 
romeobravo
Posts: 1440
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:16 pm

Not that i'm in favour of the minimum wage or welfare but the negative income tax cures the problem of the welfare trap described in the OP. It also doesn't kill jobs like the minimum wage.

It's shocking that this is never considered but i think that's just the fault of modern day partisan politics. Nobody actually cares about what works, they are more interested in opposing whatever the other side of the aisle is saying, as if belong to one side defines their very existence.
 
romeobravo
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 93):
The money was not printed just to cover overspending. It was printed to get interest rates low and stay low so that employment and the economy would recover. Money has to be printed as the value of the items it represent increase, and the size of the workforce increases.

Artificially low interest rates do not cause economic recovery, they cause bubbles. In fact low interest attempting to suppress the .com bubble are what caused the crisis in the first place. The interest rate guides businesses telling them when to invest and when not to invest. They represent how much savings are in an economy. When the government manipulates them it sends the wrong signals to businesses, it tells them to invest when their aren't any real savings to invest with. This means that businesses invest in things that are not economically viable, and when inflation occurs and interest rates are forced to rise these projects fail and cause a recession.

The west is now in a state where interest rates have been so low for so long, it is now impossible to raise them without another possibly enormous recession. Central banks have basically fought a heroin addiction with even more heroin. I can't speak for the US but i know an awful lot of people here have tracker mortgages. The latest moron they've brought in here from Canada has recently announced that rates won't rise for another 3 years. He knows full well that the economy can not nor will ever be able to handle a rates rise so he's going to try and hold off the collapse until after the next election. But in those 3 years the problem will get even worse.

And all this time, new money is continually shafting the poor/fixed wage earners and benefiting the asset holders and bankers. The conclusion is that money printing is the greatest sin the government commits.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14147
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 95):
Artificially low interest rates do not cause economic recovery, they cause bubbles.

Before they can cause a bubble, they can cause a rise, that coupled with the proper monetary policy will keep thinks from becoming a bubble. Just as high interest rates can cause a decrease in spending. Low interest rates cause an increase.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 95):
The conclusion is that money printing is the greatest sin the government commits.

Money printing is the role of the Government. They control the supply. Policy must move between printing and pulling dollars.
 
romeobravo
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:05 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 96):
Money printing is the role of the Government. They control the supply. Policy must move between printing and pulling dollars.

Fundamentally disagree there. The government can't plan the price of money any better than it can plan the price of cars, bread or housing.

The market can do that job perfectly fine itself.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24068
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:27 am

What are we defining "welfare" as? It looks like some think they are huge cash payments made to people who are living high on the hog but not working. However, when a person's income reaches a certain level, food stamp payments and health benefits are decreased as well as eligibility for rental assistance. The way all this works, of course, is that people must have some sort of income to begin with.

Consider this: a person needs to have income in order to pay rent when they receive rental assistance.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 89):
Show me a single post in the past 10 years where I have said that GWB was a perfect, or even good, steward of our economy (aka one I "don't have any problem with").

When GWB did anything economically (or anything at all) and it was questioned, you were in the top five to defend those policies. I went through 20 pages of your previous posts and it was only at 2010. You talk a lot  
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14834
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RE: Welfare Pays More Than Minimum Wage.

Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:16 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 97):
Fundamentally disagree there. The government can't plan the price of money any better than it can plan the price of cars, bread or housing.

The market can do that job perfectly fine itself.

Especially considering that the system we currently have was created by the US for that explicit purpose, with commercial banks creating money.

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