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romeobravo
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:39 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 98):
No, they would both cost more because most of those goods and services would be using the roads as well, and would thus be passing the higher costs on to their customers.

No, goods and services that did not make an above average use of the roads would be cheaper, and vice versa. Thus even if nobody changed their behaviour, the economy would be in parity.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:50 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 98):
No, they would both cost more because most of those goods and services would be using the roads as well, and would thus be passing the higher costs on to their customers.

   A point I've not seen myself.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 99):
but you forgot to look at the unseen impact to the economy of taxing it to create that railway in the first place.

The economy is THRIVING because managers, customers and workforce alike do not waste their precious time in traffic jams.

I'm pretty sure that our generous government support for the railway is actually a hefty, but unseen subsidy to our companies. So it required some substantial taxes in order to build and maintain the railway tracks and the stations, but now they're enjoying the dividends.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
romeobravo
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:59 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 101):
The economy is THRIVING because managers, customers and workforce alike do not waste their precious time in traffic jams.

Again, you are failing to see the unseen costs of taxation, it would be thriving even more, and to be honest i'm getting a little big sick now of you purposely missing the point. If people valued train travel over cars so much they would be prepared to pay the full cost of the trains via the fares.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 102):

If Americans valued defense of their homeland that much, they would eagerly start and fund a company that fights America's wars.



David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
romeobravo
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:20 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 103):
If Americans valued defense of their homeland that much, they would eagerly start and fund a company that fights America's wars.

That's basically how America was founded yes. You're slowly learning.
 
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seb146
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 103):
If Americans valued defense of their homeland that much, they would eagerly start and fund a company that fights America's wars.

The problem with that is: the military is run by the government. The military decides it needs some piece of weaponry and shells out billions of tax dollars to make it work. There are huge cost over runs because everyone needs to take their cut. It isn't strictly fighting anymore. There are other components to it.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 105):
The problem with that is: the military is run by the government.

Why? Why does national defense get a pass when healthcare and transit don't? Costa Rica exists without a military. No country exists without roads, rail, airports, and healthcare.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Mir
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:09 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 99):
To an ignorant person like yourself it might appear to be an efficient use of money, but you forgot to look at the unseen impact to the economy of taxing it to create that railway in the first place.

And you're not looking at the broader impact to the economy of having cheap and reliable infrastructure. When goods and services can move about cheaply and quickly, everyone benefits. And they benefit more than they would if taxes were lowered. That's the important point - it's true that I would have some limited benefit to me if I didn't have to pay taxes in order to support infrastructure, but could I use that extra money to as good an effect? Very unlikely.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
romeobravo
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:42 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 107):
And you're not looking at the broader impact to the economy of having cheap and reliable infrastructure. When goods and services can move about cheaply and quickly, everyone benefits.

No they don't you imbecile, how many times do i have to explain this, this is really really basic econ? People who don't use the roads extensively don't benefit because they are still paying for them. When you distort people's behaviour by offering subsidies you necessarily produce a less efficient outcome. You don't need to subsidise these things because if people truly valued them, they'd be willing to pay the full costs anyway.

Let's say the cost of road transportation is 7 units per container on the road and 5 by rail. But because the government subsidises the roads the cost to the consumer is 4 by road and 5 by rail. Now people will use the road more often and waste 2 units each time. They think they're getting a better deal but they are just paying the excess in taxes. So on the whole the economy is spending more money on transportation because they are choosing the less efficient mode of transport more often. If you remove the subsidies, yes people will by spending 1 more unit to transport by rail, but the tax saving will be greater so they will be able to afford that and the economy will have more wealth on the whole because it is being more efficient.
 
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seb146
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:01 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 106):
Why? Why does national defense get a pass when healthcare and transit don't? Costa Rica exists without a military. No country exists without roads, rail, airports, and healthcare.

I don't know. People scream about how educators and transit workers are stealing the country blind, but don't care how much waste, fraud, and abuse are going on from the military. In this country, the military is the be all and end all. Apparently, education can do nothing for this country but we had better give the military all our money or else this country will collapse. No one cares about the death panels in private health care, but no one but no one better take away one cent from the military. Why do we need a huge base in Okinawa?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
PPVRA
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:54 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 20):
If that were all it was, there would be no need for passports or elaborate nationalization processes to obtain citizenship.

It is a privilege in the most literal sense of the word. It can be both obtained and revoked, according to an individual's actions, as prescribed by law.

What about that is so difficult to understand?

"Papers" are largely something that was brought over from the years before representative democracy was around. A tradition that needs to die out, and it slowly is - many jurisdictions don't require passports for visitors, at least from certain locations. Visa waiver programs are another indication that the days of this bureaucratic tradition are coming to an end.

The only other useful purpose of citizenship really is deciding who gets to vote.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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zippyjet
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:37 am

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):

Personally, I feel this trend started on November 22, 1963 with the assination of President John F. Kennedy. I was only seven at the time but I hear a lot of those older than me saying we (America) lost something because of this. Though the government ( and not limited to the USA ) has probably lied to us before I feel this horrific event kicked off our government going rogue. I believe there was a conspiracy and the lone gunman Lee Harvey Oswald spin is bull! This was the start of our expansion in Viet Nam and you can see where that got us.

Also, I throw some of the blame on my generation (Baby Boomers). We were the ones who were going to change the world, remember the hippies and free love? Well guess what? Those same druggie long hairs became the Wall Street Robber Barrons who are contributing to the demise of our great nation. We've brought you such ridiculous things as in no particular order:

* New Morality
* Political Correctness (taken to extremes)
* The Every Kid gets a Trophy/Ribbon
* Too much government intrusion
* The omnipotent rule of the Lawyers
* Death of Common Sense and Common Courtesy
* The expansion of that Me Uppity attitude.
* With the opression of the lawyer we also have rulership by bean counter.
* The Great divide and conquer culture. A growing gap between the haves and have nots

However to end on an up note, we have come a long way.
Relations between varous races, ethnicities has a way to go but, we don't have the Apartheid segregation we had through the mid 1960's.
We have a lot of technological goodies that for better or for worse have influenced our lives.
We have the capibility to correct a lot of these issues and when we do we will have the potential for a real golden age but, we have to get there first!
I'm Zippyjet & I approve this message!
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:17 am

I think it's hilarious that on the same post you call someone else an imbecile, you leave us with this gem...

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 108):
If you remove the subsidies, yes people will by spending 1 more unit to transport by rail, but the tax saving will be greater so they will be able to afford that and the economy will have more wealth on the whole because it is being more efficient.

Of course here on planet Earth it would be much more like...

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 108):
If you remove the subsidies...

... you will spend no more units transporting anything at all by rail, since without subsidies, there is no rail.

Go get your own dirt.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
PPVRA
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:56 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 112):
... you will spend no more units transporting anything at all by rail, since without subsidies, there is no rail.

Incorrect. Plenty fo rail has been build privately without subsidies.

Nowadays, yes, it's more difficult - especially since when there are people getting subsidies, it's kinda hard to compete!!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
romeobravo
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:11 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 112):
... you will spend no more units transporting anything at all by rail, since without subsidies, there is no rail.

According to this article article UP had profits of $3.3billion. That's probably more than AA, DL and UA combined.

I have no doubt that UP get subsidies here and there, hard to imagine they are getting more than $3.3billion in subsidies though.

[Edited 2013-09-07 11:13:14]
 
B747-4U3
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:02 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 114):

There are profitable railways in the world, there are also a lot of unprofitable ones.

A large proportion of the companies that operate into London would not survive without government financial support (FGW, FCC, Southern, South Eastern, London Midland are amongst some who have had or are continuing to have subsidies and/or revenue support from the taxpayer). Crossrail would not be being built without government support. London Underground - whilst it may be operationally profitable - relies upon government subsidies for renewals, upgrades and extensions. Without government support the system would fall into disrepair as it did in the 80s.

Whilst one can argue whether this should be the case or not, the interesting question is what would happen to London if these companies suddenly stopped operating?

Free Market Theory would suggest that someone else would take their place, however passenger operations in the UK have historically been unprofitable. Companies factor in revenue support when they bid for franchises. If there was no revenue support it is entirely possible that no one would bid.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:05 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 113):
Incorrect. Plenty fo rail has been build privately without subsidies.

Are you sure? Even here in the states, where a lot of rail goes back over 100yrs or more, the majority of that rail was built on land confiscated and redistributed by.... the gov't. Especially during our civil war, where the union figured out that rail was effectively the only way to win that thing, much of what we had here sidestepped Eminent Domain this way.

In any case, even a 50 mile shortline would today probably bankrupt just about any company you can think of just trying to secure all that right of way.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 113):
Nowadays, yes, it's more difficult - especially since when there are people getting subsidies, it's kinda hard to compete!!

Well Nowadays is where I live. And if we pull subsidies from rail, as mentioned above, there's a better than good chance no one would bid for the job, given the insane cost of entry

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 114):

According to this article article UP had profits of $3.3billion. That's probably more than AA, DL and UA combined.

And still nothing like enough $$$ to build a new surface line from LA to SF (about 360mi). I think you should really look up how much it would really cost to secure, develop, and track all that land. We haven't bought cars, paid workers, or funded rainy days yet either.
Well, you know what they say. Whatever doesn't kill you...
... Must not be an MD-11.
 
romeobravo
Posts: 1440
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RE: America Stopped Caring About The Public Good

Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:08 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 116):
And still nothing like enough $$$ to build a new surface line from LA to SF (about 360mi). I think you should really look up how much it would really cost to secure, develop, and track all that land. We haven't bought cars, paid workers, or funded rainy days yet either.

They don't need to build a new line from LA to SF though. There are 3 in place already.  

In fact i think asides from Tehachapi it would be very cheap to build a new line along that route. San Joaquin valley is very flat and there are few obstacles.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 115):
A large proportion of the companies that operate into London would not survive without government financial support (FGW, FCC, Southern, South Eastern, London Midland are amongst some who have had or are continuing to have subsidies and/or revenue support from the taxpayer).

Yes but they are also restricted into how much they can charge on tickets.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 115):
Crossrail would not be being built without government support.

Good, it's complete waste of money. Nearly £2000 for every Londoner. I'd rather just use the tube to get to Heathrow. On top of that my local station (Farringdon) has been severely disrupted during construction.

[Edited 2013-09-08 07:09:05]

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