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PHLBOS
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:07 pm

Another feature item (at least as it peertains in the North American market) seemingly gone for good... doorlock keyhole on the front passenger's-side door.
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Superfly
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:33 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 146):
Hood ornaments. They need to start doing hood ornaments. Not like the ones on Mercedes but like on the 1950s Mercurys and Cadillacs.

Agreed!
Some of my favorites were the Mercury Cougars throughout the 1970s, the Cadillacs of this era, all the Jaguars, Rolls Royce and the Chrysler pentestars on those magnificent K-cars.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 148):
I remember seeing an eBay ad. for a '71 LTD convertible a few years ago that actually came with a manual transmission.

Now that's just crazy!
Did it have a tricked out 429cu"?

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 148):
That was because the '77 T-Bird essentially replaced the '76 Elite;

Well I know that but didn't the top trim levels of the Mustang II cost more than the Thunderbird in 1977 and 78?

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 148):
That was the one change I did w/my '76 Landau about a year after I bought it; partly because my brother knew somebody who did that kind of work. The above also allowed me to change the color of the half-roof (the car was a coupe) from white to blue to match the interior. The car's exterior was white. Once done, the car looked much sharper w/the white body/blue roof exterior than its original all white body/roof. Yes, I also did have the rub strips along the body & doors repainted blue to match the new half-vinyl roof as well.

Sounds like a smart idea.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 150):
Another feature item (at least as it peertains in the North American market) seemingly gone for good... doorlock keyhole on the front passenger's-side door.

What is up with that?
Even the cheap cars made here in Thailand have the doorlock keyhole on the front passenger's-side door.
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PHLBOS
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:14 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 151):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 148):
I remember seeing an eBay ad. for a '71 LTD convertible a few years ago that actually came with a manual transmission.

Now that's just crazy!
Did it have a tricked out 429cu"?

I saw the eBay 2 to 3 years ago; I think the engine it had was the 390.
While I knew a manual transmission existed on the '69 and earlier models model (usually the Customs or Custom 500s w/the 240 cid 6); I was a tad surprised that such lasted into the '71 models.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 151):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 148):
That was because the '77 T-Bird essentially replaced the '76 Elite;

Well I know that but didn't the top trim levels of the Mustang II cost more than the Thunderbird in 1977 and 78?

Unfortunately, I don't have any pricing info. for the '77 or '78 models. The best I could do, using my own personal resources, would be to compare the top trim of the '76 Mustang II to the Elite of the same year. I only have a copy of Ford's Car Buying Made Easier guides (that includes detailed price lists for all models and options) for the '76 and '79 model years.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 151):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 150):
Another feature item (at least as it pertains in the North American market) seemingly gone for good... doorlock keyhole on the front passenger's-side door.


What is up with that?
Even the cheap cars made here in Thailand have the doorlock keyhole on the front passenger's-side door.
Guess on my part, the reasoning/rationale (not that I agree with it) for doing such was due to the increased usage and availability of keyless entry systems over the last decade or so. In the eyes of the bean-counters (again, not saying that it's right); eliminating the passenger's side keyhole was an easy cost-cutting measure.

The first new car I noticed that did not have a passenger's side keyhole was the 2002 Mustang I rented in Florida. Most cars got rid of them when they underwent a restyling/make-over but others just dropped them even when the previous design carried over. Even the Crown Vics, Grand Marquis' and Town Cars did such sometime in the mid-2000s.
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Superfly
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:55 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 152):
I saw the eBay 2 to 3 years ago; I think the engine it had was the 390.

I know performance gurus prefer manual clutch but did they feel the same about 3 on the tree?
The 390cu" was a ballsy engine.
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zippyjet
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:59 pm

How could I forget these two styles:

I. Hybrid pick up/car



Here is the 1973 El Camino from the late lamented TV series My Name Is Earl

The Ford Ranchero started off this segment in the 50's. It took Chevy a couple years to roll out their El Camino. Both mirrored each other. At first they were built on their respective full sized (land yacht platform). Then took a couple years off and came back using their mid sized then known as "intermediate" sized car platform. Interestingly enough in the late 70's Mopar came out with a front drive version based on the Omni/Horizon. VW got into the act with a deriviative based on their wildly popular Rabbit.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/08/Ford_Ranchero_1958_frontleft_2006-04-08_U.jpg/800px-Ford_Ranchero_1958_frontleft_2006-04-08_U.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Red1968FordRanchero.jpg/800px-Red1968FordRanchero.jpg


A funky 1959 El Camino

G8_Sport_Truck.jpg/799px-2010_Pontiac_G8_Sport_Truck.jpg" target="_blank">G8_Sport_Truck.jpg/799px-2010_Pontiac_G8_Sport_Truck.jpg" width="650" height="271" alt="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/2010_Pontiac_G8_Sport_Truck.jpg/799px-2010_Pontiac_G8_Sport_Truck.jpg" border="0"/> Before the death of Pontiac there was a concept G8 version from the General.

II. And who could forget 2 door mid and full sized station wagons? Talk about impractical. Most of them looked strange with the exception of the original Chevy Nomads.

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sprout5199
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:14 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 106):
What vehicles today still offer the 2-way (or Ford's 3-way) doorgate? Most if not all SUVs/CUVs offer only a hatch for the rear door. Ford's Excursion, when it existed, had a 2-piece swing-door (similar to those seen on vans) with a single flip-up rear window.

The Honda Ridgeline a the 40 or second mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITppAK6IFOY

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TSS
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:23 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 154):
And who could forget 2 door mid and full sized station wagons? Talk about impractical. Most of them looked strange with the exception of the original Chevy Nomads.

The last American-made ones I recall were the '64-'65 Chevelle 2-door wagons, basically wagon versions of the ''64-'65 El Caminos. They didn't look bad but they didn't exactly set the market on fire with sales, either.

In at least one ad from the 50s the two-door wagons were marketed towards families with kids, the theory being that the kids were safer if they didn't have a door of their own to lean on and possibly fall out of in traffic. In fairness, car door latches have come a long way since then, helped along by federal standards if I recall correctly.

I've got to call "foul" on posting a pic of a '61 Plymouth to illustrate the strange looks of 2-door wagons because every body style and trim level of '61 Plymouth looks exceedingly strange, the 2-door wagon version looking, if anything, less strange than the rest of the Plymouth lineup that year.  Wink

[Edited 2013-09-09 20:45:01]
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Superfly
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:20 am

Quoting TSS (Reply 156):
The last American-made ones I recall were the '64-'65 Chevelle 2-door wagons,

What about the Pinto and Vega wagons?

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 154):
Talk about impractical. Most of them looked strange with the exception of the original Chevy Nomads.

Yikes!
Must have been a pain in the ares getting people in to the back seat. Two doors usually have a longer door for ease of getting in & out of the back seat.
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TSS
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:22 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 157):
Quoting TSS (Reply 156):
The last American-made ones I recall were the '64-'65 Chevelle 2-door wagons,

What about the Pinto and Vega wagons?

I should have clarified and said "Full- or mid-size" as did Zippyjet. The Pinto/Bobcat and Vega/Astre wagons were sub-compacts, although strictly as wagons neither were bad efforts.
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zippyjet
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:17 am

I've got to call "foul" on posting a pic of a '61 Plymouth to illustrate the strange looks of 2-door wagons because every body style and trim level of '61 Plymouth looks exceedingly strange, the 2-door wagon version looking, if anything, less strange than the rest of the Plymouth lineup that year.

I was never a Mopar fan but, in retrospect really appreciate the 1957 to 1959 Chrysler, Dodge and Plymouth Forward Look creampuff land yachts. However the 1960 restyle took a turn for the worse. These hippos actually look like they took a design step backwards. With the exception of the early Nomads and the Pontiac counterpart, 2 door full size wagons were usually stripped down vehicles devoid of carpeting and other features we now take for granted.
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TSS
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:50 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 159):
I was never a Mopar fan but, in retrospect really appreciate the 1957 to 1959 Chrysler, Dodge and Plymouth Forward Look creampuff land yachts. However the 1960 restyle took a turn for the worse. These hippos actually look like they took a design step backwards.

Virgil Exner, Chrysler's former chief stylist and creator of the "Forward Look" is quoted as saying his design ethic was "Go all the way, then back off". Apparently around the time the 1960 models were being finalized he stopped backing off. On the other hand his concept show cars from that same period are remarkably clean and sleek designs, so it may have been that the top brass at Chrysler sat on his shoulders and said "More chrome! More chrome!" for the production cars, a possibility supported by the fact that the basic versions of each line are generally more attractive than their upmarket stablemates.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 159):
With the exception of the early Nomads and the Pontiac counterpart, 2 door full size wagons were usually stripped down vehicles devoid of carpeting and other features we now take for granted.

Yep, once all-steel 4-door wagons entered the picture the 2-door wagons became little more than a sedan delivery with windows and a back seat.
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PHLBOS
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:08 pm

Quoting TSS (Reply 160):
Yep, once all-steel 4-door wagons entered the picture the 2-door wagons became little more than a sedan delivery with windows and a back seat.

Ford's last full-size 2-door wagon was a version of their '61 Ranch Wagon. A cargo variant (no 2nd or 3rd row seats) called the Courier also made its final appearance then. Demand for such evaporated when vans (although smallish at first) debuted.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 151):
didn't the top trim levels of the Mustang II cost more than the Thunderbird in 1977 and 78?

I did some checking last night with the sources I had available.

The starting prices of a '76 Mustang II Ghia or Mach I w/the 302 V8 were $4190-$4200 respectively whereas the starting price of a '76 Elite was about $4900. The starting prices of the '77 & '78 T-Bird (from a 2009 issue of Collectible Automobile magazine) was about $5000-$5200.

The Town Landau variants were about $3000 higher and both the Diamond Jubilee version ('78 model only) and the Heritage version ('79 only) broke the $10,000 barrier.

The starting price of the '79 Mustang Ghia model (4 cylinder model) was about $5300 and the standard '79 T-Bird started at $5900.

Long story short; if one loaded a top-of-the-line Mustang (II) with every option available, then the total price would likely be higher than a moderately equipped base model T-Bird ('77-'79) or Elite ('74-'76).
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zippyjet
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:12 pm

Quoting TSS (Reply 160):

Interestingly enough Chrysler canned Exner sometime during the early 60's. What I didn't like about the 60 and 61 models especially the wagons was the excess rounded corners and windows. Plus too much chrome and grilles even a mother could hate. These hippos made the list of ugliest cars in a Motor Trend issue way back. For 1960, Ford and GM's full size cars took on a more contemporary shape. In 61, the GM cars got a major restyle, for 1960 the big Fords emerged from the dark ages of 50's styling. I wonder where I could see Exner's sketches/prototypes of his designs for Chrysler cars for the early 1960's?
And, here is a picture of that ridiculously oversized fugly steering wheel found on the 1960 Chryslers.
http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/NA/Plymouth/1960%20Plymouth/1960_Plymouth_Prestige_Brochure/1960%20Plymouth%20Prestige-22-23.jpg

And this picture shows the (cutting edge technology for 1960) the record player underdash.
Imagine tooling down the highway jamming to Perry Como or Steve Lawrence and Edy Gormet with a metal dashboard, that big ass steering wheel, tail fins and a goat runs in front of your car and the record skips, you reach for the record player, say some cuss words, slam into that goat and you get impaled by that riduculous looking steering wheel and down will come Plymouth, driver, goat and all.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:33 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 106):
Okay, but are those vehicles actually available in other markets; North American/European/Asian?

Sure are. Sold all over Europe, both are very popular in Japan and you can even buy them in America.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 106):
What vehicles today still offer the 2-way (or Ford's 3-way) doorgate?

Volvo XC90, BMW X5, Range Rover all have two piece tailgates.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 154):

I. Hybrid pick up/car

Still alive and well

Holden Commodore Ute



Fiat Strada Sporting

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_nGKvuY2_FJ4/TR3Uz4r4iBI/AAAAAAAABzI/K53HT3OeS3c/s1600/2011-Fiat-Strada-Sporting.jpg

Ford Falcon Ute

http://www.sub5zero.com/sites/default/files/uploads/2011/06/FPV-Falcon_F6_Ute_2008_photo_02.jpg
 
IH8BY
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:42 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 163):
Still alive and well

Almost exclusively in Australia and NZ, or are these more widespread?
Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting IH8BY (Reply 164):
Almost exclusively in Australia and NZ, or are these more widespread?

True but the Fiat is sold all over South America.

There is also the VW Saveiro

 
PHLBOS
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:18 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 163):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 106):
What vehicles today still offer the 2-way (or Ford's 3-way) doorgate?

Volvo XC90, BMW X5, Range Rover all have two piece tailgates.

I said 2-way (or 3-way), not 2-piece; a completely different animal.

Ford's 3-way doorgate that they offered from 1966 through 1991. '73 Country Squire model shown below, note the lower pics showing the versatile tailgate. It opens like a door (window open (way 1) or closed (way 2)) or a traditional tailgate (w/the window open (way 3)).


...
GM adopted similar when they downsized their full-sizes in 1977 and kept the 3-way the tailgate design through 1990. '87 Caprice Estate shown below.

http://www.lov2xlr8.no/brochures/chevy/87capr/bilder/8.jpg

The 1991-1996 GM full-size wagons offered the versatile 2-way tailgate but replaced the roll-down window with a flip-open type more commonly seen in smaller wagons and later SUVs/CUVs. Note: the door can open down like a traditional tailgate as well.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 163):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 106):
Okay, but are those vehicles actually available in other markets; North American/European/Asian?

Sure are. Sold all over Europe, both are very popular in Japan and you can even buy them in America.

If by America, you're referring to South, Central or Latin America; okay; but I have yet to see either a Morgan 3 Wheeler or Caterham 7 in the U.S. I'm not saying that none exist in the market over here; but one would be hard-pressed to find one.

[Edited 2013-09-10 12:41:26]
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MAH4546
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:56 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 166):
If by America, you're referring to South, Central or Latin America; okay; but I have yet to see either a Morgan 3 Wheeler or Caterham 7 in the U.S. I'm not saying that none exist in the market over here; but one would be hard-pressed to find one.

The Morgan 3 Wheeler is sold in the U.S., but Morgan has a grand total of one U.S. dealership, in San Francisco.
a.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:26 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 163):

Pontiac had a concept based on this Holden. But Pontiac went the way of the Boeing 2707. I feel if these combos could have the taught handling and sturdiness then they could do quite well in today's economy. However, at least in the states, if these were produced, then they could bite into the small SUV/crossover market which are extremely profitable to the car companies.
And, I wonder how the front drive versions perform. Referring to the Omni/Horizon and Rabbit car/pickup? Imagine that Holden as a Chevy or GMC with 4 wheel drive and equip it with fun to drive decent handling. How were these vehicles insurance premium wise?

http://cdn.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/FR4E0090.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/1983_Dodge_Rampage.jpg/800px-1983_Dodge_Rampage.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Volkswagen_Caddy_Pickup_9U.jpg/800px-Volkswagen_Caddy_Pickup_9U.jpg

Examples of the compact utes with front drive
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Kiwirob
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:50 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 168):
Pontiac had a concept based on this Holden.

Actually that wasn't a concept but Holden using up the parts, they also slapped the Pontiac front on the Sportwagon.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/2009%E2%80%932010_Holden_VE_Commodore_(MY10)_SS_V_Special_Edition_Sportwagon_03.jpg

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 166):
If by America, you're referring to South, Central or Latin America

You know which America I mean, the one filled with immigrants between Canada and Mexico.

If you haven't seen one, you don't hang out with the right crowd or live in the right neighbourhood. I saw a couple of Caterhams in Vegas.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:48 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 153):
3 on the tree?

Nah, although when combined with Positraction it was still pretty kool. I think the main selling point for the old manual shift was because it was in the days before all-wheel-drive and if you lived in snow/ice country or a muddy dirt road it made it easier to get unstuck. Also I know GM did a lot of export business to areas that did not have the technology to service automatic transmissions but every shade-tree mechanic could work on a manual. Hence the sales of Cadillacs and Deuces to South American countries, etc.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 154):
Talk about impractica

Yeah, but a BIG selling point for them was that it was a SAFER car if the back was full of kids! That sold a lot of two-door cars.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 157):
Pinto and Vega wagons?

OMG two of the biggest POS's Detroit EVER cranked-out. I wonder if any of them survived more than five years?
I knew someone who bought an early 70's Pinto Wagon. PS PB Auto. Air, 4-cyl engine. It had the sound and acceleration of an old riding lawn-mower and was dead within five years. A real POS.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 159):
they took a design step backwards
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 162):
ugliest cars

Did Chrysler ever build anything uglier than the 1962 Dodge Dart?
Thery were well made----I still see one now and again-----but, oh so ugly!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:31 pm

To 'Fly,

Price corrections to my previous post regarding Mustang (II), T-Bird & Elite prices (this is what I get for going by memory, I forgot to take the piece of paper that I wrote the price info. down). Corrections are in Bold.

The starting prices of a '76 Mustang II Ghia or Mach I w/the 302 V8 were $4125-$4209 respectively whereas the starting price of a '76 Elite was $4879. The starting prices of the '77 & '78 T-Bird (from a 2009 issue of Collectible Automobile magazine) were $5063-$5411.

The Town Landau variants were about $3000 higher and both the Diamond Jubilee version ('78 model only) and the Heritage version ('79 only) broke the $10,000 barrier.

The starting price of the '79 Mustang Ghia model (4 cylinder model) was $4642 for the 2-door and $4824 for the 3-door and the standard '79 T-Bird started at $5999.

I could double-check how much the 302 V8 would add to the '79 Mustang Ghia's price; I'm guessing somewhere in the $200-$500 range.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 169):
If you haven't seen one, you don't hang out with the right crowd or live in the right neighbourhood. I saw a couple of Caterhams in Vegas.

With all due respect, that's a typical elitist (& classless) attitude response right there.

BTW, I'm not the only one that believes the Morgan 3 Wheeler is rare in the U.S.; see Mah4546's reply below; Bold emphasis added:

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 167):
The Morgan 3 Wheeler is sold in the U.S., but Morgan has a grand total of one U.S. dealership, in San Francisco.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:48 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 166):

I said 2-way (or 3-way), not 2-piece; a completely different animal.

Personally I don't see the point in the tail gate being able to ope 2 or 3 different way. BTW the BMW 5GT and Skoda Superb habr boats that open like a conventional sedan and they can also life up like a liftback, that would be a 2 way.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 171):
BTW, I'm not the only one that believes the Morgan 3 Wheeler is rare in the U.S.; see Mah4546's reply below; Bold emphasis added:

Morgans are pretty rare everywhere, they only handcraft about 600 a year and have a waiting list that would make Ferrari green with envy. Took one of my relatives 4 years to get his.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:54 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 172):

Back in the day, mid to late 60's, Ford with their "magic tailgate" 3 way enabled versatility. Back then, for a lot of women (housewives/moms) this was before the fitness craze and on some wagons opening the tailgate was a bit of a schtick. Also, by opening like a conventional door when piling in the kids on the third seat and in many cases just the back of the wagon (no third seat) the finish would not be marred by footprints on the tailgate. My dad had four wagons when I was a kid. A '57 relatively stripped Plymouth Suburban Forward Look wagon only options AM radio and 2 speed push button tranny, 1964 Chevy wagon, I believe it was a Bel Air or Biscayne. Dad wanted to get factory A/C on the wagon anticipating summer trips to Miami and maybe a jaunt to Atlantic City and of course many day trips to DC to see the monuments/attractions. However, the story went when his car came in, it did not have A/C and dad needed to buy a new car since the Plymouth was basically DOA. I remember dad driving home with the new Chevy wagon on November 23, 1963 a rainy Saturday the day after JFK was assasinated. I remember we took a ride around the city (Baltimore) on Monday since we had off from school for JFK's funeral. Wagons three and four were Ford Country Squires both with factory A/C. Dad used the wagons for his hardware store, hauling tools and driving to Virginia and Delaware for his store besides hauling me and my sister around. For loading, down went the tailgate. But opening the tailgate like a car door made loading packages toward the back of the back seats much easier and less labor intensive and for those occasions when me, my sister and our cousins piled in for a Sunday outing usually to DC to check out the monuments. Reminds me of a funny story; back in the mid 60's we were driving to DC to the Smithsonian. We picked up my cousins and me and my one cousin managed to step in dog ploppies. Dad being the resourceful man he always was picked some crab apples off a tree to clean off the offending poop off our shoes. Then we piled into the back of the Chevy wagon and on to DC via the Baltimore Washington Parkway. (days before I-95 was built between Baltimore and DC)

And regarding factory A/C back in the day. GM was ahead with in the dash A/C vents way before Ford for their "standard sized/full sized cars." Ford finally integrated the A/C ducts in the dash with the 1965 restyled full sized cars. My aunt, dad's sister had a 1963 loaded Country Squire with the hang on A/C factory system. When we'd get together in the summer, dad elected to drive that car thank you very much for family outings and would do the driving. The adults didn't complain about the intrusion of the A/C unit under the dash.

The one upside to my dad's Chevy Wagon not having A/C was we flew to Florida instead of driving. Had that Chevy come with the factory A/C we would have driven. Two nights, three days with Country Music! My mom didn't drive so dad would have done all the driving. And this was years before Micky built his house in Kissime, Florida.

1957 Plymouth Suburban 4 door wagon. My dad's was like this one imagine a hippo on wheels with the big fins, 2 speed Automatic transmission, no power steering, no power brakes and a straight six engine! My dad's was the medium blue.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/1964_Chevrolet_Bel_Air_SW_9-str.jpg
A virtual twin to my dad's but his didn't have those weird grab handles on the back. My dad's had the power window on the tailgate but crank windows on the rest of the car. That was a common combination on station wagons in the 60's and 70's. Both my dad's Ford Country Squire wagons came that way.

This was the color of my dad's 1967 Country Squire wagon our first car with factory A/C. We didn't drive her to Florida but many day trips to DC, Chads Ford, PA, Atlantic City and the Strasberg Railroad. My dad made the drive in two hours or a little less (hauled Ass with that 390 V8). White with the blue interior.

This was a twin of my Aunt's 1969 Squire wagon the one that was loaded. My dad's was the light powder blue and in comparison was a bread and butter for the time wagon. See my earlier descriptions. Interestingly enough the A/C on the 67 did a better job than the '69 wagon. You could hang meat in the '67 Squire. My dad's wagon was closer to this one but was blue with no luggage rack. This is the car I learned to drive on and took my test on back in 1972!
The 1969 Fords had their "Front Room" dash. Sort of looked like the cockpit of an airplane. This was a one model year design. For 1970, they changed the dash and squared it off. It was stilled called "Front Room."
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 172):
Personally I don't see the point in the tail gate being able to ope 2 or 3 different way.

Granted the earlier-posted Ford & Chevy ads are a bit hard to read the descriptions & attributes of the 2/3-way tailgates due to the image sizes, so I'll briefly explain here:

1. To have it swing out like a conventional door (window open or closed) is more convenient for accessing the rear/3rd row seat(s). Many of these wagons were 8-seaters that featured either a rear-facing 3rd-row seat or a pair of side-facing seats.

2. Having the gate drop down (like that of a pick-up truck) comes in handy for one loading/unloading cargo; 4'x8' sheets of plywood from either a Lowe's or Home Depot come to mind.

3. Having a vehicle that offers both increases its versatility. One needs to remember that many of these wagons were used as the proverbial family bus on most occassions and as a cargo hauler on the weekends.

Since many 3-seat vehicles (SUVs/CUVs) today feature a forward-facing 3rd row seat; passenger access from the rear of the vehicle is now longer as necessary as it once was. That's the reason why the fore-mentioned 2/3-way tailgate is now considered an outdated car style feature; hence the thread topic.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 172):
BTW the BMW 5GT and Skoda Superb habr boats that open like a conventional sedan and they can also life up like a liftback, that would be a 2 way

The BMW 5GT's indeed a 2-way decklid (as opposed to tail/doorgate); it either opens like a sedan trunklid and opens like a hatch/lift-back. According to BMW's website, the 5GT is not available in the U.S. market. While the X6 model is similarly styled; it does not appear to offer the 2-way decklid.

IIRC, Skodas aren't available in the U.S. market as well.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 173):
The 1969 Fords had their "Front Room" dash. Sort of looked like the cockpit of an airplane. This was a one model year design. For 1970, they changed the dash and squared it off. It was stilled called "Front Room."

Incorrect, the dashboard of the 1970 full-size Ford models were identical to that of the '69s with two notable exceptions:

1. 1970 was the first year that the ignition was on the steering column; the '69s was located at the bottom of the dashboard to the right of the steering wheel.

2. For the standard steering wheel (not the 3-spoker offered on some XL models); the horn was activated by pressing the outer ends of the steering wheel spokes; the '69s had a seaprate chrome ring per your pic. The diameter of the 70's steering wheel was smaller than that of the '69 as well.

1970 LTD dashboard shown:


The "Front Room" dash design that you speak was that of the '71 and '72 models.

http://images.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads//2013/05/1971FordLTD_03_700.jpg

[Edited 2013-09-11 11:35:51]
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:51 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 174):
According to BMW's website, the 5GT is not available in the U.S. market.

You must be looking at the wrong BMW website because here it is.

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...?Series=5&BodyStyle=Gran%20Turismo
 
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:17 pm

My mistake you are correct. Though this is a 1970 Country Squire dash, my dad's was identical except of course for the steering wheel horn design and of course the ignition. Ours as mentioned was the old style under the dash. As I mentioned, the factory A/C in my dad's 67 did a much better job cooling. And, I noticed this with other 1969-1970 full sized Ford wagons. Anyone have any ideas why the older model did better at cooling? Around 1969 it seemed GM full size cars had the best A/C followed by Ford. Chrysler Plymouth products A/C were way behind the curve. And they had the Air Temp corporation.
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:54 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 175):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 174):
According to BMW's website, the 5GT is not available in the U.S. market.

You must be looking at the wrong BMW website because here it is.

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/conte...rismo

As the 535i Gran Turismo not the 5GT per your earlier post (see below).

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 172):
the BMW 5GT

That's what threw me off.

In the future if you're going to mention a model to support a point you're trying to make; it's usually best to use the full model name and not some obscure nickname that may not be fully known/recognized worldwide. The 5-series sedan has been sold in the States a lot of years but I have never heard anyone refer to it as a 5GT or 5 (insert 2-letter suffix of choice here). They either call it the 535 (in this case) or simply the 5-series.

[Edited 2013-09-11 14:56:12]
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:12 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 169):
Actually that wasn't a concept but Holden using up the parts, they also slapped the Pontiac front on the Sportwagon.

Actually Pontiac was going to bring over the ute badged as the G8 ST, however that plan was scrapped for financial reasons a few months before GM decided to cut the Pontiac brand.

http://www.thetorquereport.com/2010_pontiac_g8_st.jpg

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 177):
The 5-series sedan has been sold in the States a lot of years but I have never heard anyone refer to it as a 5GT or 5 (insert 2-letter suffix of choice here). They either call it the 535 (in this case) or simply the 5-series.

The 5 series sedan is not the 5 series GT, they are different (in fact the 5 GT is actually on the 7 series platform). The 5 series Gran Turismo has only been around for about 4 or 5 years and is almost always referred to as the 5 GT or 5 series GT. The reason you probably haven't heard of it? Nobody buys them.

[Edited 2013-09-11 15:17:51]
 
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:36 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 178):
in fact the 5 GT is actually on the 7 series platform

So is the F10/11 5 Series.
 
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:40 am

Anything in Superfly's car would qualify.
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 166):
The 1991-1996 GM full-size wagons offered the versatile 2-way tailgate but replaced the roll-down window with a flip-open type more commonly seen in smaller wagons and later SUVs/CUVs. Note: the door can open down like a traditional tailgate as well.

Come on, you can find a better photo of a 1991-1996 wagon.   

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 170):
OMG two of the biggest POS's Detroit EVER cranked-out. I wonder if any of them survived more than five years?
I knew someone who bought an early 70's Pinto Wagon. PS PB Auto. Air, 4-cyl engine. It had the sound and acceleration of an old riding lawn-mower and was dead within five years. A real POS.

I have to disagree. My vote goes to the Pontiac Aztec.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 170):
Did Chrysler ever build anything uglier than the 1962 Dodge Dart?

Yes, the Neon.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 171):
The starting prices of a '76 Mustang II Ghia or Mach I w/the 302 V8 were $4125-$4209

Those are just starting prices. The quadrasonic 8track deck was $358 and wasn't standard. Then the air conditioner takes the cost up even higher. Then throw in the power glass moonroof ($950), luggage rack on rear trunk lid, CB radio with antenna, rear-window defrost, illuminated vanity mirrors (both sides), individual reading lamps along with dome light, remote trunk release; I've already taken the price of the Mustang II Ghia well above $5000 and closer to the $6000 mark for 1977 and 1978. That is within striking distance of the base Lincoln Continental and certainly in the base full-size range.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 171):
'79 Mustang

Wasn't interested in those since they were based on the more substantial Fairmont (Fox platform).
The premium Mustang II options fascinate me because of the absurdity of a Pinto-based car costing as much as a Thunderbird.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 173):
You could hang meat in the '67 Squire.

Many guys did.  
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 181):

But, interestingly enough you could not get power locks or power windows in the Mustang during the 1974 to 1978 run of the Mustang II. Mustangs from 1969 to 1973 offered power locks and windows, and Mustangs since the 1979 restyle to the Fox platform. There were some prototypes of a Mustang II convertible (1974) that never made it to production.
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:02 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 182):
But, interestingly enough you could not get power locks or power windows in the Mustang during the 1974 to 1978 run of the Mustang II. Mustangs from 1969 to 1973 offered power locks and windows, and Mus

Well aware of that. That's why I said; The premium Mustang II options fascinate me because of the absurdity of a Pinto-based car costing as much as a Thunderbird.
In fact you could get leather seats in the 'Grande' edition Mustangs (1971-1970).
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:30 pm


Check out the matron lady with gloves and that old school hang on air conditioner unit. Driving gloves and the hang on units are outdated.
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:42 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 181):
Pontiac Azte

Oh yeah! Modern ugly.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 181):
the Neon.

Hahaha. I forgot about that one. What about a Juke?   
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:44 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 185):

Check out the archives for several "Ugly Car" threads in the Nov-Aviation thread. It seemed that Chrysler Plymouth, Dodge and the last De Soto's early to mid 60's got the ugly stick. As mentioned Virgil Exner after his smashing successful 1957 to 1959 Forward look cream puffs was dissed by the big executives and bean counters. So the next two generations of Mopar cars were made with big fins, bad quality, funky designs and chrome, chrome and more chrome. Some of the ugliest American Cars from an era that's now considered a classic period in automotive history.
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ImperialEagle
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:17 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 186):
So the next two generations of Mopar cars were made with big fins, bad quality, funky designs and chrome, chrome and more chrome. Some of the ugliest American Cars from an era that's now considered a classic period in automotive history.

Well, the '61-'63 Imperial's headlight arrangement was waaaaay over the top. Not to mention impractical to try and keep clean.It would have ripped the brushes off of an automatic carwash and the brushes that were left would likely rip the tail lights off the '62 as well! You would end-up with a repair bill from the car wash!

I've had an Imperial ('67) and it was a good car with (I thought) nice styling for the day. It never gave me a bit of trouble.
I loved the '65/'66 New Yorkers.
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:55 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 187):

The '67 Imperial was a looker and jumped leap years ahead. It actually looked like something Virgil Exner would have designed had he stayed with the Pentastar.

Those arly 60's Imperials reminded me of the sort of gaudy in my opinion 1958-1960 Continentals with the Breezeway window.
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:00 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 174):
The "Front Room" dash design that you speak was that of the '71 and '72 models.
http://images.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads//2013/05/1971FordLTD_03_700.jpg

That's what I drive... '71 LTD Country Squire with 429. Even the same color!

Light steering / bad handling, terrible fuel economy, but a very quiet, smooth, powerful, reliable and easy to maintain car.






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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:49 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 178):
Actually Pontiac was going to bring over the ute badged as the G8 ST, however that plan was scrapped for financial reasons a few months before GM decided to cut the Pontiac brand

Perhaps the Holden Ute will make it to the American marketplace as a Chevy El Camino, companion to the Chevy SS sport sedan.

1976 Pontiac Grand Prix


Another blast from the past is two-tone paint jobs that kinda sorta follow the lines of the car, Another 1970s cliché of the past is the massive "waterfall" chrome grille - and the sailboat influenced styling. And the entire "personal luxury car" segment of the market - although I truly miss the Lincoln Mark and Cadillac Eldorado models.
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:02 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 170):
Did Chrysler ever build anything uglier than the 1962 Dodge Dart?

Yes, they did: The entire 1961 Dodge full-size line-up.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 181):
Yes, the Neon.

While the first-generation Neons were definitely victims of a severe beating with a "cutesie-poo" stick, the second-generation Neons were a huge improvement and were not bad-looking cars at all.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 181):
The premium Mustang II options fascinate me because of the absurdity of a Pinto-based car costing as much as a Thunderbird.

A fair point to be sure, but it's worth noting that the Thunderbirds of the same era were based on the less-than-thrilling Torino chassis. Perhaps if Ford had made the Mustang II look less like a tarted-up Pinto than it did, it's ancestry might have been less obvious. Several years ago Collectible Automobile did an article on Mustang IIs that showed several alternate design proposals that didn't make it to production, all of which were much better looking and less obviously Pinto-derived than what finally made it the showrooms, so perhaps CptnKrell can give us some insight as to why Mustang IIs wound up looking as Pinto-like as they did.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 182):
But, interestingly enough you could not get power locks or power windows in the Mustang during the 1974 to 1978 run of the Mustang II. Mustangs from 1969 to 1973 offered power locks and windows, and Mustangs since the 1979 restyle to the Fox platform.

Maybe because Mustang IIs were so narrow that it was no problem to simply reach over and lock the passenger door or roll down the passenger window, thus rendering power windows and power door locks unnecessary?

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 188):
The '67 Imperial was a looker and jumped leap years ahead. It actually looked like something Virgil Exner would have designed had he stayed with the Pentastar.

I must respectfully disagree. The '67 Imperial had the straight lines and minimal chrome typical of Elwood Engle's later designs while showing none of Exner's hallmarks at all.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 188):
Those early 60's Imperials reminded me of the sort of gaudy in my opinion 1958-1960 Continentals with the Breezeway window.

Ironic, since the '58-'60 Lincolns (as well as all late-50s Edsels, Mercurys, and Fords) were designed under Elwood Engle, who left Ford shortly after designing the '61 Lincoln Continental to head up Chrysler's styling department where he was responsible for the gorgeous '64-'66 (still on the same chassis as the garish '57-'63) Imperials as well as subsequent Chrysler Corporation models.
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:14 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 190):
Another blast from the past is two-tone paint jobs that kinda sorta follow the lines of the car,

Yes, when cars had lines, looked different from each other (and even previous years), before just about every car turned into a wind tunnel-inspired jellybean, with jellybean-shaped headlights, jellybean-shaped taillights, jellybean-shaped door handles, and jellybean-shaped dashboards... Is anyone else sick of the jellybean yet?

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 190):
Another 1970s cliché of the past is the massive "waterfall" chrome grille - and the sailboat influenced styling.

Sailboat influenced styling!!

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 190):
And the entire "personal luxury car" segment of the market - although I truly miss the Lincoln Mark and Cadillac Eldorado models.

Personal luxury has gone from this:



to this:

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/autopia/2010/11/Fiat-500-US-Spec-02.jpg

(and yes, I have heard the Fiat advertised on the radio as a personal luxury car... UGHH!!)





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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:28 am

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 192):
Personal luxury has gone from this:



to this:

Someone more skilled at PhotoShop than I should really add a couple of Fiat 500s mounted on davits (lifeboat-style) to the flanks of that Eldorado.   
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:06 am

Quoting TSS (Reply 191):

Regarding power windows and locks on Mustang II's. My guess was it would have cost too much money and tooling to offer them on a Pinto based platform. Also gas mpg. had come into our lexicon and back in the day power windows and locks added weight which was all of a sudden a cardinal sin especially on small cars.

Though Elwood Engle was in charge of styling, these were his early models and he like many stylists were beholden to the whims of the big boys at the top. And they wanted chrome, tailfins and such excesses as inverted angles which was the Breezeway window concept. To me the Breezeway's were a novel idea for the 50's but in my book were the ultimate in shaking the ugly stick.
His '61 Lincoln and later Chrysler designs really was the true styling genious. I for one have eschewed the rounded gaudy inverse angles of a lot of 50's cars and today with rear windows especially on fugly SUV's and crossovers.
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:00 am

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 192):
Is anyone else sick of the jellybean yet?

ME!
I absolutely HATE the jellybean design.
It was cool when AMC first did it with the Pacer but now everyone has been doing it since the 1986 Ford Taurus/Mercury Sable.

Quoting TSS (Reply 191):
the Thunderbirds of the same era were based on the less-than-thrilling Torino chassis.

I like the Torino and all cars based on that chassis.  
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 190):
1976 Pontiac Grand Prix

Simply beautiful!   

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 189):
That's what I drive... '71 LTD Country Squire with 429. Even the same color!

Nice!   
Our cars are on the same platform.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 187):
Well, the '61-'63 Imperial's headlight arrangement was waaaaay over the top.

I like the quirkiness of those headlights. I saw one at a gas station in San Francisco a few years ago.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 185):
Hahaha. I forgot about that one. What about a Juke?

That must have come out since I moved to Thailand.
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:36 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 190):
1976 Pontiac Grand Prix

Beautiful. That one must be maxed-out with options---it even has cornering lights.
I assume it has an automatic transmission as three-on-the-tree would really be tacky on this one.
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DucatiRacer
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:38 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 190):
And the entire "personal luxury car" segment of the market - although I truly miss the Lincoln Mark and Cadillac Eldorado models.


I don't know, I think that segment is still alive and well. I would actually consider my car (BMW 6-series) to qualify, as would the Mercedes E-Class coupe and CL Class, the Audi A5, the Jag XK, the Bently Continental GT, and the just arriving at a dealer near you Rolls Royce Wraith. All of those cars have (theoretically in the case of some) room for 4, but are really designed for the comfort of the driver and front passenger, and are well equiped with luxury appointments and tech even in their most basic trim. The primary distiction from the old personal luxury cars of the 70's, for example, is that they have really moved far up-market to the point of relative scarcity resulting from the high average cost of entry. Back in the day, a comfortably middle class individual could easily afford a loaded out Monte Carlo, T-bird, and the like. Now, with the exception of some base model, smallest engine available Audi A5s, if you want a generously sized, well appointed coupe, you will be getting into a pretty steep MSRP territory that would be a little difficult for the average 9 to 5 Joe to justify paying.
 
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:51 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 195):
Simply beautiful

My Dad owned a '76 Grand Prix LJ that looked almost identical to the one in the photo - but without the leaky T-Tops. 400 cubic inch V-8, and a 6+ foot long hood. Dad bought '83 Monte Carlo and gave me his Grand Prix while I was in college. Lots of bittersweet memories with that Grand Prix, especially since Dad passed away earlier this year.
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RE: Outdated Car Style Features

Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:58 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 198):

One of my closest friends got his dad's 77 Grand Prix (Last year of that generation of the GM sporty mid size). A very cool looking car. I'm sorry about your dad's passing. My dad passed three years ago and there's never a day I don't think about him and all his unconditional love he gave to me and my sister. And, I managed to pluck many nerves along the way.

This is limited to Toyota. But, Toyota has basically killed off the economical sporty coupe fun to drive version of their bread and butter Corolla. The past few generations the mainstay of Toyota has become a drab-mobile, a shrunken Buick Le Sabre wannabe. Little style and white bread lackluster performance.Luckily Toyota in a not too soon move totally revamped/reinvented the Corolla. Many don't like it but I for one like the looks of the latest incarnation of the Corolla. It departs a bit from the Hello Kitty simple jelly bean style. I hope the quality continues and it handles and lives up to it's new look. I remember when there was at least one sporty coupe Corolla. Sort of the working man's Celica. I really felt the 1988 Toyota Corolla Sport Coupe was a hot little number. The FX 16 was a good try but it got shorted in the looks department. Now would be an opportune time for Toyota to add a cool looking coupe version of the Corolla with sporty handling and based on the new 2014 cool looking body.

http://stwot.motortrend.com/files/2013/06/2013-Toyota-Corolla-LE-Special-Edition-left-rear-1-1500x996.jpg
2012 Corolla- Not bad looking but dreary, sleep inducing.

http://img.r7.com/images/2013/06/07/08_11_42_325_file?dimensions=780x536&no_crop=true
There's hope now for Toyota to finally break away from trying to be an old codger Buick.
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