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United Airline
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Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:03 am

The British Empire was a super power if not hyper power in the past. The UK is still very rich and powerful but no where close to what it was. Any chance of returning to its former glory?
 
IH8BY
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:13 am

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

In short, no. For a start, I'm not sure that re-establishing the British Empire would go down particularly well with a lot of countries...

It shouldn't be looking to, either. Power and influence are viewed in different ways now, and the sooner the UK stops being over-nostalgic for a return to the 'good old days' the better.
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United Airline
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:14 am

Perhaps be a larger economy than Germany and France or even China (It's hard to know the real GNP of China as figures are usually......) once again?
 
Rara
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:06 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 2):

Perhaps be a larger economy than Germany and France or even China (It's hard to know the real GNP of China as figures are usually......) once again?

Germany and France: perhaps.

http://datamarket.com/featured/population-france-germany-and-uk/

Forget China, obviously. It's 20 times as large as the UK.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
GDB
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:42 pm

No and neither should it even think of such an idea.

Britain as a nation with so much of the world under it's control was as much as anything an accident of history and a result of technology than anything else.
It gained that power and influence after Waterloo and Trafalgar effectively secured it's position from any european threat, at the same time being the first industrial nation (as Danny Boyle depicted so stunningly at last year's Olympic opening ceremony), inevitably transformed the country not only inside and in the world.

Britain, now of course united internally, politically also more stable than most neighbours and rivals, was first industrially since the break from Rome under the Reformation eventually allowed a greater extent of free thinking during the Enlightenment and it also helped that the island was virtually a vast coal stream below the surface.

What emerged was a world wide network and trade and open markets as much as physical discovery and occupation, one fed off the other.

The 20th Century changed all that, others caught up industrially, new threats emerged, first WW1 which was economically very damaging as well as the the horror of mass death, then WW2 which due to the choice made by, ironically a great champion of the Empire, Winston Churchill, to not accept any terms of 'keeping the empire' by Hitler but to fight on, that period of our history was soon to be over.
So Britain survived and was on the winning side but was blasted, worn out, bankrupt.

Today, even the biggest nations generally seek to exercise influence through alliances, international bodies, Britain is no exception and should be a warning to those who seek to raise a national drawbridge in a misguided idea of being patriotic.

But there are other forms of power and influence aside from crudely military and directly economic.
Recently, Professor Brian Cox, in a series of the history and future of science in the UK provided this stark fact, the UK has 1% of the world's population, 3% of spending on science but 15% of the results - discoveries, papers, patents.
We just need to get better at commercially exploiting them.
That is a legacy still enduring from the period of superpower status and there are others. In all areas of cultural influence Britain still punches way above it's weight - physical, population and economically.
Again, Mr Boyle in a typically British eccentric way, depicted this at that ceremony last year too.

It's as if that period of our history, now slipping beyond living memory, is like the big bang that created the universe, the heat from that event can still be detected now as well.
 
bill142
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:46 pm

You can start by giving Hong Kong back.
 
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par13del
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:06 pm

Well usually one has to start within your own nation, so first question is how much control over your own activities have been ceeded to the EU and other organizations in terms of politics and trade?
It's hard to tell other people what to do when you are also being told what to do, the EU collective is where the UK power base now lies and is projected out to the world.
 
Klaus
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:58 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 5):
You can start by giving Hong Kong back.

Hmm... at least in my universe that's already happened in 1997...!   

Quoting par13del (Reply 6):
Well usually one has to start within your own nation, so first question is how much control over your own activities have been ceeded to the EU and other organizations in terms of politics and trade?

The EU is not an extraneous body ruling the member countries with an iron fist but rather the member countries pooling their resources and influence.

National politicians just often misrepresent what the EU is and does for their own political gain and to shift away some of the blame for their own screwups, somtimes even when they themselves had been voting for certain EU regulations themselves.
 
United Airline
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:21 pm

I don't really trust the real size of the China Economy. They usually make the figures a lot bigger. The real figure might be lower than that of the UK. Besides if anything goes wrong with the communist party then..............

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 5):
You can start by giving Hong Kong back.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Hmm... at least in my universe that's already happened in 1997...!

Anyone in Hong Kong would love to return to British rule or become a commonwealth country
 
Rara
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:31 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 8):
I don't really trust the real size of the China Economy. They usually make the figures a lot bigger. The real figure might be lower than that of the UK. Besides if anything goes wrong with the communist party then..............

In order for the UK to a bigger economy than China, UK citizens would have to be 20 times as productive as Chinese citizens. To put it another way, the average Brit would have to create as much surplus value in one hour as the average Chinese in two and a half working days. Not impossible, but very difficult, and increasingly unlikely.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
threeifbyair
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:44 pm

Despite the government shutdown, the pro-colony movement has been pretty quiet here in the USA.  

So no...
 
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zckls04
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:04 pm

The people of Britain don't want to return to being a colonial power, even if some of the stupider ones might think they do.

In these days of instantaneous information the evidence of the various atrocities you would have to commit to gain and hold onto such power would be laid bare for all to see, and politically it just wouldn't be feasible. During the time of the empire the ruling class had a very firm grip on the reigns of power, and in a time of restricted information there was little dissent from the hoi polloi. These days the politicians have to cravenly capitulate every time the gutter press complains about them.

And even if you've overcome your own country's problems, you still need every other country to surrender to your whim. The Empire had the luxury of vastly superior weaponry, but nowadays everybody is on a much more level playing field.
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Aesma
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:47 am

Any current developed country will only "go down" in relative power/influence, since more and more countries are developping and in some cases surpassing them.

However no country will get to be as prominent as could be possible in centuries past, more countries will have each a bit of power. Besides, people migrate, people are informed, they realize that we're all human and power doesn't matter that much.
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prebennorholm
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:50 am

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
Any chance of returning to its former glory?

The UK has never been more glorious than today.

Historically she can even brag about being one of the countries which got rid of former colonies in a fairly decent way and has maintained fairly good relations with most of them after their independense. Even after the US war of liberation fairly good relations have long time ago been re-established across the Atlantic.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 8):
Anyone in Hong Kong would love to return to British rule or become a commonwealth country

That may be correct. But among the two options - British rule or Commonwealth country - I'm pretty sure the Hong Kong citizens would prefer the latter, an independent Commonwealth country.
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bill142
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:01 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Hmm... at least in my universe that's already happened in 1997...!   

I meant giving Hong Kong back to Great Britain.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:21 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 14):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Hmm... at least in my universe that's already happened in 1997...!   

I meant giving Hong Kong back to Great Britain.

It was never Great Britain's to give back to. It always belonged to China and was ceded to the UK as payment for Chinese destruction of British property back in the 19th century. It was only fitting that after Hong Kong's role in trade was no longer relevant it should be ceded back.
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gkirk
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:56 am

Well given that theres a 50% chance that the UK will split up very shortly, then no.
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bennett123
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:56 am

iirc, Hong Kong was only ever ceded for 150 years anyway.
 
CXB77L
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:04 pm

Quoting United Airline (Reply 8):
Anyone in Hong Kong would love to return to British rule or become a commonwealth country

  

Absolutely. There's some degree of (and I dare say widespread) anti-mainland sentiment in Hong Kong, with the view that things were better when it was a British colony. If Hong Kong could declare independence from China, it would.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 13):
That may be correct. But among the two options - British rule or Commonwealth country - I'm pretty sure the Hong Kong citizens would prefer the latter, an independent Commonwealth country.

You're probably right about that too.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:49 pm

Quoting gkirk (Reply 16):
Well given that theres a 50% chance that the UK will split up very shortly, then no.

I very much doubt the Scottish voter will be that stupid. One has to wonder what will happen to the Scottish Nationalist Party after they are defeated in the referendum, they are a one policy party, with that policy being defeated what's the point of their continued existence?
 
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Asturias
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:12 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 13):
Historically she can even brag about being one of the countries which got rid of former colonies in a fairly decent way

Not really, the UK is still holding a stranglehold on Gibraltar.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 15):
It was never Great Britain's to give back to. It always belonged to China and was ceded to the UK as payment for Chinese destruction of British property back in the 19th century.

Curiously, similar story with Gibraltar.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 11):
The people of Britain don't want to return to being a colonial power, even if some of the stupider ones might think they do.

... I'm not so sure.

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bennett123
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:06 pm

What is the status of Ceuta?.
 
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zckls04
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:33 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 20):
Not really, the UK is still holding a stranglehold on Gibraltar.

Gibraltar has voted to stay a British territory. Ceding it to a foreign country against the will of its residents could hardly be considered "a fairly decent" thing to do now could it?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 19):
I very much doubt the Scottish voter will be that stupid.

They won't- polls all indicate the vote will be "No". The economic costs are just too high for Scotland.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 15):
It was never Great Britain's to give back to. It always belonged to China and was ceded to the UK as payment for Chinese destruction of British property back in the 19th century. It was only fitting that after Hong Kong's role in trade was no longer relevant it should be ceded back.

Hong Kong island most definitely did not belong to the Chinese, otherwise it could not have been ceded back as you suggest. You either own something or you don't. The New Territories were on a lease, and that lease ran out; it just made sense by then to keep the two united by ceding Hong Kong back too.

An unfortunate circumstance really, since the people of Hong Kong are 91% in favor of a return to British rule.
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bjcc
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:45 pm

It was as much a case of HK not being able to survive as a separate entity without the New Territories, hence why being realistic about it, they went, Hong Kong had to go with it.

UK opinion polls have a habit of being very wrong, which works both ways, so although I think Scotland going it alone is a mistake they would regret, I wouldn't be too keen on writing off the prospect.

With 16 year olds who are persuaded by the romantic notion being able to vote, I think it will be a very close run thing. The SNP will spin it, if they loose, and go for Devolution max to save face. But there's very little effective opposition to them being in power north of Hadrian's wall. Being in power though isn't the same as being independent.

Do we want an empire back? No. While the Empire worked in the past, well, certainly did for us, the world's no longer like that.

We could have been sensible in the 70's and formed a trading partnership with the Commonwealth, but we snubbed them and went for the EU instead. Personally, I think we'd have been better off with a proper network of equal partners of the commonwealth, and a looser link with Europe. That way, everyone would have been a winner.
 
texdravid
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:41 am

Are you kidding?

England will never ever return to glory. It will continue to decline and muddle along as a has been.
Everyone knows it, except for people like the royal family, who stroll around and dress up like it was 1910 with their silly pageantry and rituals of a long ago time.

At least most of England knows its decline and owns it, as opposed to the USA which actually believes their bs about how they are still great.

P.S. Hey, England why don't you stop being thievish and return the Kohinoor diamond and other stolen artifacts back to India.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
bjcc
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:15 am

Not sure why you are on about England, it's not England that is at issue, it's about the United Kingdom, they are 2 different things.
Just seen the Queen on TV, oddly, she wasn't strolling around in anything from 1910? In any event, the Empire, as it then was pre and post dated that date. However it no longer exists, and has been replaced by something called the Commonwealth of Nations, do keep up.
So England is in decline is it? Ok, well, you're entitled to an opinion, but it would be far better if you backed that up with accurate facts.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:02 am

Quoting texdravid (Reply 24):
Everyone knows it, except for people like the royal family, who stroll around and dress up like it was 1910 with their silly pageantry and rituals of a long ago time.

Like Texans who prance around on high-horses with their ridiculously over-sized hats yelling 'git along little dogie'? Yee-haw!
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
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pu
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RE: Will The UK Return To Its Former Glory?

Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:39 am

The greatest nation state to propel the positive trajectory of history -and the advancement of humanity in general- has been the UK. If considered together with its main offspring in the Anglo-sphere, the English speakers are by far the most potent force in the modern world. China produces nowhere near as much as those who live in English-speaking nations and the UK can take some parental ownership of all English-speakers, I think. ...and while English is not quite the most common first language, it is far and away everyone's second language, the language of the internet, the language of science.

Besides, who knows what the future holds? I for one dismiss the plausibility of China ever leading the world. The great democracies will rule the day, as always, and the UK may yet play a leading role.


Pu

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