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United Airline
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The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:17 am

I prefer to fine wine like Romanee Conti, Lafite, Latour etc.

I suppose the largest markets are 1) USA 2) Europe 3) Japan? Hong Kong is probably number 1 per capita wise as there are many super rich collecting very fine wines
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 6:52 am

China also pretty big, especially for French wine. A few years back, and entire years worth of Lafite went to Shanghai alone.

However it's consumed more for status and face rather than a true appreciation of fine wine

I would out Europe well ahead of USA
 
fn1001
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:05 am

In Moldova we have some good caves with very good wine, but unfortunately we also have a lot more caves with substandard wine, making it difficult to find the gems. We also have not the good marketing, the fame and reputation of the french and italian wines. Moldova was the supplier for wine in the former Soviet Union.

Today I will enjoy a 2007 Tiganello  
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United Airline
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:12 am

I think USA is probably the largest followed by Europe and Japan. I might be wrong. Maybe Europe is higher I am not sure.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:41 pm

Quoting United Airline (Thread starter):
The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Middle aged women who own cats. Sorry, I couldn't resist  
Quoting fn1001 (Reply 2):
In Moldova we have some good caves with very good wine,

Indeed, I've sampled plenty of Moldovan wine and there are many excellent vineyards. Moldova and Georgia are two (often hidden) gems of the wine world.

Quoting fn1001 (Reply 2):
Moldova was the supplier for wine in the former Soviet Union.

Along with Georgia.


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AR385
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:41 pm

Per capita I believe it is France, with about 26 lts. per year. Argentina is also big, but 75% of wine production is consumed within the country. Italy and Spain must also be big ones.

I thought wine was not too famous in Asia, due to the metabolical poor tolerance Asians have for alcohol.
 
Rara
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:59 pm

As far as I remember, the highest per-capita consumption is found in Vatican State.  
Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
Per capita I believe it is France, with about 26 lts. per year.

I believe it's substantially more than that. Thinking about double.
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zckls04
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:12 pm

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 1):
China also pretty big, especially for French wine. A few years back, and entire years worth of Lafite went to Shanghai alone.

Do you mean an entire vintage? If so I don't believe that's the case. The allocations to different negociants doesn't change that radically from year to year.

Quote:
However it's consumed more for status and face rather than a true appreciation of fine wine

Very true. Most Lafite in China is counterfeit, like a lot of luxury goods there. I've seen '86 Lafite sold in China for a hundred dollars a bottle, and 1990 DRC La Tache for 300.... 

Let's face it though, Lafite, Petrus, DRC- they're all trophy wines even in the rest of the world. Most of the people who buy them have no ability whatsoever to distinguish what's in the bottle, and that's not just restricted to China. If it gets a 100-point Parker score it must be worth 500 bucks, right?

Fortunately I think Parker has a horrible taste in wines, so everything I like is cheap.....
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AR385
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:33 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 6):
I believe it's substantially more than that. Thinking about double.

Could be. However I got that number from an article I read recently. I´d check it but now I can´t find it.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 7):
Let's face it though, Lafite, Petrus, DRC- they're all trophy wines even in the rest of the world. Most of the people who buy them have no ability whatsoever to distinguish what's in the bottle, and that's not just restricted to China. If it gets a 100-point Parker score it must be worth 500 bucks, right?

It really depends on the year but $500 is cheap for those. I believe the cheapest Petrus you can get won´t go below $800 and you can find botlles of relatively recent vintages upwards of $1,500
 
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zckls04
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:45 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
It really depends on the year but $500 is cheap for those. I believe the cheapest Petrus you can get won´t go below $800 and you can find botlles of relatively recent vintages upwards of $1,500

I was really referring to the average price of 100-point Parker wines rather than those specific wines.

But you can certainly get an average Lafite vintage for $500. DRC not so much, and I think Petrus is garbage so I wouldn't know about that  
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kiwiinoz
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:16 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 7):

Yes an entire vintage. The Shanghai distributor covered the cost/penalty of them not fulfilling their other quotas. They have been trying to do it since but Lafite says no
 
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zckls04
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:14 am

Which vintage are you thinking of? I have never heard of this before, and I have to say I'm extremely skeptical.

Lafite would never agree to such a deal.
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cmf
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:31 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 12):
Which vintage are you thinking of? I have never heard of this before, and I have to say I'm extremely skeptical.

Lafite would never agree to such a deal.

Have to agree. It is an established market and I can't see how they would risk angering (replace with your choice explicit) their distribution network with such a move. Much less give up pricing control to another entity. Must have been an attempt at justifying having so much fake wine. Something that is sadly very common for wine where price has become more important than content and value isn't even considered.
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kiwiinoz
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:59 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 12):

I work for the owner of a hotel group with a high involvement on brokering the deal. We did the deal about 4 years ago but can't remember which vintage. Can check on Monday

I heard just in the last couple of weeks that the same distributor is trying to do it with the next release of Penfolds Grange, but Penfolds is definitely saying no
 
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zckls04
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:17 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 14):
I work for the owner of a hotel group with a high involvement on brokering the deal. We did the deal about 4 years ago but can't remember which vintage. Can check on Monday

Perhaps this negociant secured the entire Chinese allocation, so they were the sole Chinese distributor?

I can guarantee you that they did not secure the whole vintage. That is not the way the negociant system works.
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United Airline
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:41 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
Per capita I believe it is France, with about 26 lts. per year. Argentina is also big, but 75% of wine production is consumed within the country. Italy and Spain must also be big ones.

I thought wine was not too famous in Asia, due to the metabolical poor tolerance Asians have for alcohol.

Hong Kong is currently the largest wine centre in the world with the largest consumption in Asia. Hong Kong people do drink a lot and there are lots of super rich who purchase a lot of fine wine. All these wine shows are fully packed

Quoting Rara (Reply 6):
As far as I remember, the highest per-capita consumption is found in Vatican State
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 7):
Very true. Most Lafite in China is counterfeit, like a lot of luxury goods there. I've seen '86 Lafite sold in China for a hundred dollars a bottle, and 1990 DRC La Tache for 300....

Let's face it though, Lafite, Petrus, DRC- they're all trophy wines even in the rest of the world. Most of the people who buy them have no ability whatsoever to distinguish what's in the bottle, and that's not just restricted to China. If it gets a 100-point Parker score it must be worth 500 bucks, right?

Fortunately I think Parker has a horrible taste in wines, so everything I like is cheap.....

Taiwanese too.

A lot of Lafite in China are fake though
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:32 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 15):

No it was global. And trust me, I am fairly close to the industry and know how these things work. I also know how certain things get circumvented. Happens more often than you think.

You'd be amazed the lengths to which luxury brands/ manufacturers will go to gain favour in China at the moment, at the expense of longer established customers. An eye on the future rather than the past

The fake wine issue in China is a big one, particularly as even reputable vendors have been caught out.
 
ha763
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 7:33 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 14):
We did the deal about 4 years ago but can't remember which vintage.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was 2008. The bottle for the 2008 Lafite had the Chinese character for the number 8 on the bottle.

http://www.decanter.com/news/wine-ne...-bottles-to-feature-chinese-symbol

That being said, I doubt the entire 2008 vintage was not sold to a Shanghai distributor since the vintage was available all over the world.
 
ozglobal
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:31 am

Quoting United Airline (Reply 16):

Hong Kong is currently the largest wine centre in the world...

According to who? What is a "wine centre"? A distribution hub? A consumption hub? Don't you think that the volume of fine French, Italian, and Spanish wines from a few centres in Europe would dwaf anything going on in HK?


I've been to HK 25 times and dined out in higher end restaurants and would never belive it to be the largest consumption hub per capita.

Maybe some marketing outfit are only including Asian "staus" wines in the measure. That could be true and is also meaningless, as it it is not evidence of a taste for fine wines, just wine as trophies of prosperity ( like their Merc and cigars).
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AR385
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:05 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 19):
According to who? What is a "wine centre"? A distribution hub? A consumption hub? Don't you think that the volume of fine French, Italian, and Spanish wines from a few centres in Europe would dwaf anything going on in HK?

There you go. Questions that I thought about myself. They might be a wine center in "sales" because of the prices they sell at but certainly not in consumption. In the countries you mention and many in Latin America a bottle of wine is opened for lunch and dinner.
 
United Airline
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:23 am

The largest wine centre in terms of absolute terms=Europe or USA?

Sorry for the confusion. My mistake.

1) Hong Kong people drink a lot. The super rich like Henry Tang, Peter Lam etc are among the world's largest wine collectors. Lots of super rich in Hong Kong and they buy a lot of fine wine. Ordinary people drink ordinary wine. Hong Kong people drink a lot. On a per capita basis perhaps Hong Kong is one of the largest if not the largest for fine wine?

2) Hong Kong is the world's largest wine AUCTION centre.

3) Hong Kong people consume the largest amount of wine within Asia.

[Edited 2013-10-06 02:37:38]
 
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MillwallSean
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:10 am

Many wild guesses here. I dont know about 2013. Latest stats I have is from 2009 when I bought some in my opinion high quality wines for the cellar.

For Romanee Conti, a brand thats is used as much as investment as for drinking, the main export market is the US closely followed by the UK and then comes Japan and fourth comes China. China is the market thats increasing most rapidly. HongKong is counted separately and comes in at number 6. Canada is ahead of HK.
All stats can be found at the French government site under the french foreign ministry or as called in french:
MINISTÈRE DES AFFAIRES ÉTRANGÈRES

Its also recorded that most bottles are sold in France. Sold and consumed is very different though. I would guess that the main reason why the US and UK are the top export markets is also connected to the fact that the major auction houses etc are there.

Also these stats almost mirror what you see if you look at the biggest export markets for Burgundy wines.

I would however be slightly cautious about some numbers particularly the US and UK ones since alot of the wine sold there is then sent to merchants and buyers outside their respective countries. The US send a fair bit to Latin America and the UK virtually worldwide.
For whats sold in France, it can end up anywhere inside the Schengen and does so without the full knowledge of the statistics company. Too small volumes to be cargoed.

Personally id say Chateau Lafite, Romanee Conti etc are less about flavour, the people that really can see the specialness with a Romanee Conti arent the ones consuming it.
Youll find some amazing Bourgogne wines for prices much less than what a cork of Romanee Conti costs. id suggest that the few people capable of telling the difference between these 20-50 Euro bottles can start to venture upwards while the rest of us normal people can stick to that price range for high quality Bourgogne wines.

And fakes well, not just unsuspecting Asians get caught out by fake wines. All people without good schooling in wine does.
Dr Conti managed to convince alot of the wine elite in the US about his knowledge and wine cellar. Even after the French had said that his products werent the real deal when he wanted to auction bottles that were said to have been manufactured earlier than the first officially recorded manufacturing day many wine critics and buyers in the US kept on believing in him.
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Bongodog1964
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:47 pm

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 17):

No it was global. And trust me, I am fairly close to the industry and know how these things work. I also know how certain things get circumvented. Happens more often than you think.

This beggars belief, Chateau Lafite who produce one of the most expensive, if not most expensive wines in the World owned by the Rothschild family who aren't exactly short of money (at times they have financed entire Countries) selling an entire years production to one company. They have an immediate and escalating market for every drop they produce. Not only do they have no financial need to make such a trade sale, but it would also severely upset their longstanding customers.

This is all in laa laa land.
 
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OA260
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:54 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 4):
Georgia are two (often hidden) gems of the wine world.

Yes Georgian wine is very good if you get the right one.

Also some of the lesser known Greek wines are great. The tourists go for the terrible ones which are cheap and like paint stripper but some smaller producers are winning awards for their wines. Aegean Airlines serve a great selection onboard with a proper wine menu to tell you about the wine and the producer.

http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/PhilipOA260/A3JUNE/file-119.jpg
 
AR385
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:35 pm

I´ve hear Lebanese wine is excellent too. I can´t find a way to get a bottle though.
 
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OA260
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:58 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):
I´ve hear Lebanese wine is excellent too. I can´t find a way to get a bottle though.

Yes it is I got some when I was in Lebanon a few times. I gave a few bottles as presents to Family and they loved it.

There is a place here in Ireland that we can get them from :

http://www.thewineshop.ie/lebanese-wines.html

So maybe the same exists in your country or if you visit another country they may have some small stock.

It can be quite expensive though  

Christie’s Is Selling Lebanese Wine, $1,790 Per Bottle

Art collector Joel Mallin has engaged Christie’s International auction house to sell wines from his 6,000-bottle cellar, featuring top vintages from Burgundy, Bordeaux and Lebanon’s Bekaa Valley.
Mallin and his wife Sherry are best known for collecting sculpture, including works by Richard Serra and Andrew Goldsworthy.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ebanese-wine-1-790-per-bottle.html
 
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zckls04
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:16 pm

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 17):
No it was global. And trust me, I am fairly close to the industry and know how these things work. I also know how certain things get circumvented. Happens more often than you think.

Sorry- I'm afraid that information is incorrect; I know this 100% for a fact. You must be misunderstanding something you were told.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):
I´ve hear Lebanese wine is excellent too.

Chateau Musar is great stuff. They also do a lovely Rose called something like "Jeune du Chateau Musar". Had a quick look for Mexican distributors but you might be out of luck  
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OA260
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RE: The Largest Markets For Fine Wine?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 27):
They also do a lovely Rose called something like "Jeune du Chateau Musar".

Chateau Musar Jeune Rose   

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