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fr8mech
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Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:57 am

The following are a few examples where school administrators have, in my opinion, over reacted rather badly to incidents on and in one case, well away, from the school.

We have the famous pastry-gun incident where a second grader was suspended for chewing a pop-tart into a gun-like mountain shape.

We have an incident where a student was suspended, and faces expulsion, because he realized he brought a hunting knife to a football game and turned it over to a security guard before entering the field.

Then there's the young man who is facing felony weapons charges for having a fishing knife in a tackle box in his car on school grounds.

And, who can forget the great Airsoft Shoot-Out of 2013, where 2 students were suspended and face expulsion for playing with their Airsoft guns while waiting for the school bus...about 70 yards away from the bus stop. Special mention to the neighbor on that one.

The teen suspended for wearing an NRA T-Shirt. He was later arrested.

The teen girl that was promoting violence simply by wearing a, you guessed it, NRA T-Shirt.

And, the one, that takes the cake:

A SWAT officer was asked by the principal of the elementary school his daughter attends to not come to the school in uniform.

Have these people lost their minds? Do people not think anymore?

Granted, some of these have turned out ok, but they never should have happened. Others are fighting for their names and their futures.

Let's hear some more 'zero tolerance' stories. Kids suspended for having an aspirin? Alleged cases of bullying? What about kids who run afoul of the new nutriion guidelines? I know of heard of some issues there.

Post your stories so that we can laugh and cry together. Maybe even raise some awareness and try to make some changes.
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PHX787
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:12 pm

I think they're overreacting way to much.

IN my old high school, during our lunch bells, it was prohibited to go to your lockers during the lunch period up until 11:30 because of the noise.....I went to my locker at 11:27 apparently, (according to the in-hall clock, and the teacher) and the teacher literally ran towards where I was and gave me a detention. Such bullcrap!
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fallap
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:20 pm

I really can't stand the term "zero tolerance"

Sure it makes sense in my cases like pilots flying while entoxicated, but it also serves (in my opinion) as an excuse for not having to think and use your common sense, by judging each case individually.
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TSS
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:02 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Thread starter):
And, who can forget the great Airsoft Shoot-Out of 2013, where 2 students were suspended and face expulsion for playing with their Airsoft guns while waiting for the school bus...about 70 yards away from the bus stop. Special mention to the neighbor on that one.

Not knowing the story there but having lived in the suburbs as a youth, I've got to wonder if that one wasn't less about the Airsoft guns and more about "pesky" kids putting footprints on a retiree's obsessively manicured lawn, with the Airsoft guns being a means to the end of "teaching those kids a lesson about staying off people's lawns!".
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Dreadnought
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:14 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Thread starter):
Have these people lost their minds? Do people not think anymore?

Oh, I think neither. This is part of the very consistant efforts over the past couple of generations to pussify Americans, and turn them into good little sheeple.
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Maverick623
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:14 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Thread starter):
Have these people lost their minds? Do people not think anymore?

School administrators have been batshit crazy since at least the 1980s.

Ever seen the Breakfast Club?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:34 pm

Too many zero tolerance, "feel good" measures. Also, I'm sure administrators are just trying to avoid backlash from the other side if they don't act on something... not condoning some of these BS cases, but it highlights the problem of public officials being terrified to do their job and make common sense decisions because of political correctness.

Having discretion raises the problem of not being consistent, but honestly, I'd rather work from that angle because it's less of a problem IMO
 
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Aesma
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:35 pm

I read yesterday about a Florida senior (18yo girl) facing 15 years in jail for having consensual sex with a 15yo girl from her basketball team.
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PHX787
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
I read yesterday about a Florida senior (18yo girl) facing 15 years in jail for having consensual sex with a 15yo girl from her basketball team.

She got off on a plea deal...when she gets out of jail (like, 10 months) she's going to work to change that law. Such bulcrap
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 3:49 pm

To show you how much things have changed over the years, I've heard stories from folks that went to the high school I graduated from back when it first opened in the mid-1970s that they used to offer rifle shooting as a P.E. class and students in the class were allowed to bring their own rifles from home for the class (and I'm not talking about a BB gun). These days, there are high school rifle teams, but they use air rifles.

Even the iconic plastic army men figures many us of played with as kids have been labeled weapons and kids have gotten suspended over them.

There have been kids suspended over making a gun with their finger.

The whole "zero tolerance" in regards to weapons is out of control. Even when someone does the right thing, they still get punished. Some of this starting happening about 20 years ago when I was in high school. My junior year of high school, our school was one of the schools selected to test an new version of the SAT which included a writing test. Some of the folks that volunteered to take the test did so only to get out of class for it. One student that wasn't taking it seriously wrote about how he wanted to blow up the school and ended up getting expelled for the last couple of weeks of the school year as a result. If you were caught with a knife, it would usually result in the knife being confiscated until the end of the school year and at most, might warrant a suspension if it was something other than a small pocket knife.

I remember one year at Halloween back when I was in middle school, I dressed up as Rambo and brought a toy gun with me to school and nobody panicked, nobody had to call the police, classrooms weren't put on lock down (That same year at Halloween, a Asian student dressed up as Hitler and of course was made to change out of it. Whenever I see the old South Park episode in which Cartman dresses up as Hitler for Halloween, I think back to middle school and laugh....) These days, a tiny toy gun from a G.I. Joe will get a kid suspended.

If an NRA shirt or hat is considered to be "promoting violence" how long before military clothing items are banned for a similarly silly reason? By the rationale that is being used in the two cases mentioned above, wearing an old Army jacket or wearing a t-shirt with a military jet on it could also be considered to be "promoting violence".  
 
mham001
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Thread starter):
A SWAT officer was asked by the principal of the elementary school his daughter attends to not come to the school in uniform.

I might agree with that one if there were more details. I find the continuing militarization of our local police disturbing and unnecessary. I'm not sure parading around school is appropriate, particularly elementary school.
 
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
IN my old high school, during our lunch bells, it was prohibited to go to your lockers during the lunch period up until 11:30 because of the noise.....I went to my locker at 11:27 apparently, (according to the in-hall clock, and the teacher) and the teacher literally ran towards where I was and gave me a detention. Such bullcrap!

Totally different situation.

It's one thing to face punishment for ridiculous interpretations of loosely defined rules ("zero tolerance" weapons policy that gets a kid in trouble for drawing a picture of a gun, or a "zero tolerance" drug policy that gets a kid expelled for having a bottle of over-the-counter tylenol, or a case I remember years ago of a first grader expelled for hugging another student in violation of a "zero tolerance" sexual harassment policy).

It's something else completely to have a minor reprimand for violating an explicitly defined policy for a clearly stated reason. That's more akin to whining about a cop ticketing you for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign.
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:58 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Thread starter):
A SWAT officer was asked by the principal of the elementary school his daughter attends to not come to the school in uniform.

I have a better one... Earlier this year a Michigan Air National Guard soldier came to his old high school, in uniform, (he was on his way home from duty at the ANG base nearby), to pick up his high school transcript, he even had an appointment. A custodian saw a "man in a military uniform" enter the school and had it put on lock down. Fortunately we don't over react like that at the school teach at or we would be in lock down all the time.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 5):
School administrators have been batshit crazy since at least the 1980s.

They are usually worried about getting sued. Sometimes the law gets the way too. In Michigan the school is required by law to report underage tobacco use to the police. Many administrators, and myself, find that stupid, but we are legally required to do it. A lot of zero tolerance nonsense usually has more to do with the law than with actual school administration.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 10):
I might agree with that one if there were more details. I find the continuing militarization of our local police disturbing and unnecessary. I'm not sure parading around school is appropriate, particularly elementary school.

I had uniformed police officers and fireman come to my school all the time when I was a kid to talk about safety and crime prevention. I don't think it screwed any of us up, I am sure it helped a lot of kids out.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 9):
If an NRA shirt or hat is considered to be "promoting violence" how long before military clothing items are banned for a similarly silly reason? By the rationale that is being used in the two cases mentioned above, wearing an old Army jacket or wearing a t-shirt with a military jet on it could also be considered to be "promoting violence".

A lot of students at my school wear military shirts, particularly shirts that say "Army", "Navy" or "Marines" on them. Old Army jackets were cool when I was in school. A lot of students shirts that promote hunting and I am sure that in some parts of the country those shirts would be frowned upon.
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 12):
I had uniformed police officers and fireman come to my school all the time when I was a kid to talk about safety and crime prevention. I don't think it screwed any of us up, I am sure it helped a lot of kids out.

I can say with certainty that you never saw a guy walking around your elementary school dressed in black with jack boots and body armor. This is not exactly Officer Friendly.
 
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:23 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 10):
I find the continuing militarization of our local police disturbing and unnecessary.

Hmm funny you should say that. I find many of our cops a lot less militarized than some European cops. A lot of them tote around submachine guns. We need SWAT police officers for the obvious situations. Not really sure what a "SWAT officer" means though, was he in his full gear with an M-4 or something? Many SWAT officers are normal officers that can fill that role
 
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:39 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Thread starter):
Have these people lost their minds? Do people not think anymore?

Are they allowed to think? Isn't the root of the problem that we insist they must throw the full book on every case. Until it is your kid or one of your friends kids...
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:45 pm

Quoting srbmod (Reply 9):
I've heard stories from folks that went to the high school I graduated from back when it first opened in the mid-1970s that they used to offer rifle shooting as a P.E. class and students in the class were allowed to bring their own rifles from home for the class (and I'm not talking about a BB gun). These days, there are high school rifle teams, but they use air rifles.

I know it is different but my university offers target and skeet shooting classes for credit. I'm from CT and there isn't really a gun culture there. Before I came to college I had seen exactly 2 privately owned guns in my entire life. No exaggeration. I remember the opening weekend of duck season my freshmen year. I must have seen 30 shot guns getting prepped in the common area of my dorm. I was shocked, I didn't know if that was against the rules or anything. I can see people from areas without a gun culture like me, overreacting to certain things. Doesn't mean the responses are correct, but I can see it happening.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 10):
I find the continuing militarization of our local police disturbing and unnecessary. I'm not sure parading around school is appropriate, particularly elementary school.

Why not? The problem with kids these days is they don't respect police officers. The police officer isn't "parading" his uniform around school grounds. He was dropping his kid off for school. By saying officers in SWAT uniform isn't allowed you are telling kids there is something wrong with them. Certainly not the image we want kids to have in regards to law enforcement officers.

I think the problem these days is people are so jumpy and sensitive. Little boys like to play pretend war and pretend their fingers are guns. That is what they do! I can't tell you how many times I've been hit by a nerf gun in both my childhood and by my little brother who himself is still a child. I think a big problem is how we classify the violence. Anything negative kids have to deal with schools tag as bullying. These schools talk about cracking down on bullying and how it is a terrible thing. Which it can be, no doubt. But what we have created in the process is this mentality that if someone says something negative, they are a bully. There is no such thing as constructive criticism because feelings get hurt. Parents are trying to protect their children from the real world, which they are supposed to do. But they do it to a degree that when these kids are adults they are shocked at how the real world is. I know too many college students that can't function without parental help, and I don't mean financially. These schools have to ease up. Not everybody who carries a knife is crazy, not everyone who owns a gun is going to go on a rampage, and not every kid who likes to play army man is a bad apple. It seems to me these administrators need to mature. I could write for days about the stupid stuff my old high school did. But that is for another time.
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mham001
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:56 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 16):
Why not? The problem with kids these days is they don't respect police officers.

Fear does not equate to respect, it ultimately builds resentment. Fear instilled at a very young age will not make a person cooperative with police, which I understand is their overwhelming desire when it come to immigrant communities, for example. I am now finding out how impressionable a 6 year old in elementary school can be. Many of these guys look jacked up on steroids too.

There is a lot to be known about the whole story though.
 
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:52 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 12):
School administrators have been batshit crazy since at least the 1980s.

They are usually worried about getting sued.
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 16):
Parents are trying to protect their children from the real world, which they are supposed to do. But they do it to a degree that when these kids are adults they are shocked at how the real world is.

Well of course, but I lay the blame directly on the generation of "helicopter" parents. The ones who are constantly hovering around little Johnnie or Suzie... who elect the school trustees etc, and who are determined to shield/protect their little darlings from absolutely anything bad in this world. They pressure the school administrations to bring in insane policies and nonsense because the big bad world is a mean place.

Heck, we had a celebrated case up here north of Toronto where a mother of high-school age kids wanted the oak trees cut down in the park next door to her kids school.... because her kids have a nut allergy and gee.... oak trees have acorns!!! Also all the chestnut trees because of the chestnuts. Complete insanity and the local school was caught in the middle of this nonsense.

The truth is: We cannot child-proof the world, so it is a parents job to world-proof their children. Teach them how to be safe, prepare them for the path ahead, and send them forth.
 
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:05 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 18):
No, we do not insist on that. The folks that insist on that are those that feel that they can regulate every part of our lives and that regulation needs to start in school.

Is that so? Seems to me there has been ever increasing insistence on zero tolerance for a number decades and it isn't those who have to enforce the rules who ask for them. Instead it is politicians and interest groups, from all political sides, insisting on them.

Even your beloved NRA , who I assume you used to get the cases in the OP, have called for zero tolerance at various times. Including zero tolerance on guns in schools.
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:20 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 19):
Is that so? Seems to me there has been ever increasing insistence on zero tolerance for a number decades and it isn't those who have to enforce the rules who ask for them. Instead it is politicians and interest groups, from all political sides, insisting on them.

Zero tolerance rules sound great and everyone can agree to them when you hear the cries for it... who wants to tolerate bullying or gun violence or ______? It's after the rules get enacted do we see how stupid it is to remove every ounce of discretion from the equation

I still think that the sue happy nature of the country has something to do with it too. Sometimes school administrators feel like they have to act rather than getting sued. That doesn't apply to every case listed above, but it seems to happen quite a bit

What I really don't get is how far some of these poor kids get prosecuted. There have been some truly mindnumbingly stupid scenarios and the school boards try to throw everything they can at the kid, effectively ruining the kid's life (gonna be hard to get a good job after that.) The administrators are supposed to be helping kids out, not screwing them royally
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:05 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 19):
Is that so? Seems to me there has been ever increasing insistence on zero tolerance for a number decades and it isn't those who have to enforce the rules who ask for them. Instead it is politicians and interest groups, from all political sides, insisting on them.


Where is what you wrote different than what I wrote? My biggest beef is that the administrators in these schools are gleefully going along without so much as a peep...at least not a public peep.

Quoting cmf (Reply 19):
Even your beloved NRA , who I assume you used to get the cases in the OP


Nope, just reading the news. Paying attention.

Quoting cmf (Reply 19):
Including zero tolerance on guns in schools.


There should be zero tolerance for guns in schools. But, how about we talk about real guns, not a pastry. How about we talk about people carrying guns, illegally in school, not police officers.

How about the fishing knife, in a tackle box, in the trunk of the car? Do you really think that child deserves a felony charge for that?

Quoting photopilot (Reply 18):
Well of course, but I lay the blame directly on the generation of "helicopter" parents.


There is definitely some of that. But, to lay the blame at the parents' feet just gives the administrators a pass. They do not deserve a pass. They run the schools, they enforce the rules and in some cases they make the rules.
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ltbewr
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:06 am

How about that in NY City schools, they no longer allow the PTA's to do 'cake sales' for fund raisers as cake (and other home baked goods as well as candy) are bad for kids health ? I understand the intention but it a bit over the top and nonsense to many.
One big problem with 'zero tolerance' policies is the criminalization of relatively innocent or minor poor choices of behaviors of children and teens. Yes, use the situation as a teaching moment, show some compassion and reason, keep the cops out. Clearly behaviors in the past that might mean a dreaded visit to the principals office and a comment to a parent was enough to discourage them in the future.

To me more important is when the teachers, administrators and boards do not discipline students for far more serious violations due to parental and social pressures or if they are a major player on a sports team. Bullying on the schools campus or it's more modern 'cyber' form is an epidemic at far too many middle and high schools and not dealt with enough seriousness or attempts to change. In part that is due to fears by the school staff of being bullied or assaulted themselves. (that is nothing new - a shop teacher in my HS in 1970 was severely assaulted in his crotch by a sick jerk student). Then you have the issue of rape and the schools. I recall 2 years ago, the sad story of a cheerleader at a high school claimed she was raped by a sports player, to continue as a cheerleader she had to cheer for him by name although she was refusing to do so. I believe she got thrown off the team rather than the male alleged rapist. We saw about a year ago of the terrible situation in Ohio where HS football players got a young woman drunk and was repeatedly raped and where the school and the local cops did little until a huge public outrage and brining in a prosecutor from another district due to a conflict of interest. Good sports players or the child of rich or politically influential parents don't get the punishment they deserve.

Changes need to occur at both ends - to have discipline and related polices that is fair, firm and not off the wall stupid and achieve goals of protecting students.
 
cmf
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:39 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 21):
Where is what you wrote different than what I wrote? My biggest beef is that the administrators in these schools are gleefully going along without so much as a peep...at least not a public peep.

The biggest difference is who we hold responsible for it. You put the blame on liberals and school administrators. I blame interests groups and politicians from both aisles.

As to administrators gleefully going along, not my experience.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 21):
Nope, just reading the news. Paying attention.

Have my doubts because even much of your wording match... but it isn't important.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 21):
There should be zero tolerance for guns in schools.

So you think zero tolerance is the solution. You just want it implemented per your selection instead of others selection.

This clearly is another place where we do not agree. I do not want guns in schools. Generally I do not want them in public spaces at all, as you should know by now. But I do not want zero tolerance because you take away the common sense option from the administrators when there is an incident.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 21):
How about the fishing knife, in a tackle box, in the trunk of the car? Do you really think that child deserves a felony charge for that?

It is you who want zero tolerance rules, not I. Can you please explain why you insist on writing as if I support everything you don't like instead of what I say?
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Dreadnought
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:47 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 21):
There should be zero tolerance for guns in schools.

I disagree. If they are being carried by a cop, or a teacher with the appropriate permits, that should not be a problem.

I'm guessing you PROBABLY meant that, but that is not what you SAID.
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fr8mech
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:57 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
I'm guessing you PROBABLY meant that, but that is not what you SAID.

I did say it in a post that was deleted as a "routine housekeeping matter".

I want zero tolerance (a poor choice of words, how about intolerance?) for people who carry gun illegally into a school, or anywhere else for that matter. I am an advocate for eliminating federal and state gun free zones, but if they exist, as responsible gun owners, we should not tolerate someone entering a legislatively gun free zone with a gun.

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
But I do not want zero tolerance because you take away the common sense option from the administrators when there is an incident.

When it comes to a REAL gun...note REAL, not a pastry gun, not a drawing of a gun, not a pencil gun and certainly not a finger gun, when it comes to real guns that are brought onto school property, illegally, I don't think the administrators have a choice in the matter. If there are extenuating circumstances, let the system sort those circumstances out.

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
You put the blame on liberals and school administrators.

Yes, I do. When there is no law on the matter; it is up to school policy. Read a couple of the articles. It isn't the police bringing charges, it is the school administration that is suspending and expelling these kids.

Quoting cmf (Reply 23):
It is you who want zero tolerance rules, not I.

Maybe I am a bit inconsistent here. But, unlike the law (in many places) I don't conflate a knife with a gun. I don't assume that a fishing knife, in a tackle box, in the trunk of a car as a threat to anyone.

but, that goes to my (and your) point, that zero tolerance for anything is ridiculous.

[Edited 2013-10-07 11:02:15]

[Edited 2013-10-07 11:02:56]

[Edited 2013-10-07 11:05:56]
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cmf
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:02 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 25):
When it comes to a REAL gun...note REAL, not a pastry gun, not a drawing of a gun, not a pencil gun and certainly not a finger gun, when it comes to real guns that are brought onto school property, illegally, I don't think the administrators have a choice in the matter. If there are extenuating circumstances, let the system sort those circumstances out.

Pick and choose and blame tjose who are in the impossible situation of trying to follow all requirements put on them.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 25):
Yes, I do. When there is no law on the matter; it is up to school policy. Read a couple of the articles. It isn't the police bringing charges, it is the school administration that is suspending and expelling these kids.

I've read several articles   Generally it is going back to the Reagan presidency.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 25):
it is the school administration that is suspending and expelling these kids.

Of course it is the school administration who is suspending and expelling them. Problem with zero tolerance is that it is their only option and they have everyone after them complaining whatever they do. Too harsh, too soft. Never a good word. I don't know how they manage to get anything done under the impossible situation, parents, interest groups and politicians put them under.
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fr8mech
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
Pick and choose and blame tjose who are in the impossible situation of trying to follow all requirements put on them.


I know you're against the 'zero tolerance' policies, but you're defending them here. Are you seriously telling me that a pastry gun should be treated as a real gun because the school has a zero tolerance policy on guns? Really?

Because the school district has a zero tolerance policy, it's ok for a school principal should ask a police officer to refrain from coming to school in uniform and 'fully armed'? And, what the hell is 'fully armed'? You're either armed or you're not armed. Christ, these people are teaching our kids?

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
I've read several articles Generally it is going back to the Reagan presidency.


Yes, this has been going on for years. The gun drawing (as in picture) is from 2007. It's just recently that the schools have really started to lose their minds, together with the speed of the internet...we learn about a whole lot more of these.

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
Problem with zero tolerance is that it is their only option and they have everyone after them complaining whatever they do. Too harsh, too soft. Never a good word. I don't know how they manage to get anything done under the impossible situation, parents, interest groups and politicians put them under.


Again, you suggest that because of a zero tolerance policy a student can't point his (or her) finger at another student and say "pow"? That's taking the monkey off the back of the administrators. It's letting them off the hook.

I don't want automatons teaching my kids to be automatons. I want my kids to be critical thinking members of society...why shouldn't I expect the same from the people I pay to teach them?
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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cmf
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 27):
I know you're against the 'zero tolerance' policies, but you're defending them here. Are you seriously telling me that a pastry gun should be treated as a real gun because the school has a zero tolerance policy on guns? Really?

I'm not defending them one bit. I'm saying those who are required to enforce them are not the same people who create them. Why you can't blame the people enforcing them.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 27):
Yes, this has been going on for years. The gun drawing (as in picture) is from 2007. It's just recently that the schools have really started to lose their minds, together with the speed of the internet...we learn about a whole lot more of these.

Maybe it is worse, I have not seen anything to indicate it is. Just that it is reported more often but we all know that doesn't mean it happens more often. I'm sure you can back it up.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 27):
Again, you suggest that because of a zero tolerance policy a student can't point his (or her) finger at another student and say "pow"? That's taking the monkey off the back of the administrators. It's letting them off the hook.

Nope, you are looking at everything in black and white only. I'm saying that because of zero tolerance the administrators do not have the option let it slide. If they do then it is their heads.
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zckls04
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:59 pm

If you think about it there are two possible ways to approach such cases. Either you 1) weigh up the merits for and against punishment and make a decision based on them, or 2) you apply a preset rule with no thought to mitigating circumstances, pros and cons of punishment, or basic common sense.

Zero tolerance sounds like something desirable but really it seems to me to be effectively the same as 2). It's a way of absolving yourself from any blame or consequences arising from your decision.

The problem is that people are so desperate to sue at the drop of a hat these days that that kind of common sense is too risky a proposition. I don't think the administrators can really be blamed for everything- they are just desperately trying to avoid the next lawsuit, and they have to keep maneuvering to keep up with the ever more inventive circumstances that lawyers can allege hardship over. After a while they just don't know what to do any more.
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fr8mech
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:07 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 29):
It's a way of absolving yourself from any blame or consequences arising from your decision.

That's exactly what zero tolerance policies are; they are a way for school administrators to punt the ball. "Hey, I'm just following the rules. No guns allowed here and the kid drew a gun on a piece of construction paper. 2 week suspension"

It's bull.

The school boards need to be held accountable at election time. And, quite simply, the administrators need to grow a set or be held accountable at the school board meetings. Though, it is my suspicion that some of these policies align quite nicely with their outlook on life, so they just sit back and point at the rules and say their hands are tied.

Disgusting.

Quoting cmf (Reply 28):
I'm saying that because of zero tolerance the administrators do not have the option let it slide.

But a drawing of a gun is not a gun. They choose to equate it with a gun. A gun-shaped pop-tart is not a gun, but the administrators choose to call it a gun and apply the stupidity.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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zckls04
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:25 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 30):
And, quite simply, the administrators need to grow a set or be held accountable at the school board meetings.

The board is most likely behind the zero tolerance policies. They're the ones who are in trouble when the school gets sued.

The parents are the ones to blame. They're the ones who file a lawsuit every time their imbecilic spawn gets upset by something.
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AR385
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:55 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 8):
She got off on a plea deal...when she gets out of jail (like, 10 months) she's going to work to change that law. Such bulcrap

Won´t she also enter the sex offender registry for life?
 
Maverick623
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:30 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 13):
I can say with certainty that you never saw a guy walking around your elementary school dressed in black with jack boots and body armor.

I can say with certainty that neither did that cop (except maybe for the boots). Maybe he had one of those external ballistic vests that holds extra equipment, but those are pretty common.

SWAT officers only wear their SWAT gear when on a SWAT-level assignment.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):

Won´t she also enter the sex offender registry for life?

I don't think so. According to the article I read, she was convicted of misdemeanors and a minor felony, and as long as she keeps a clean rap sheet for a number of years the convictions will be sealed and her record expunged.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Wed Oct 09, 2013 8:45 pm

How about suspending elementary school kinds for hugging each other?
How about not being able to say sitting Indian Style.


In Baltimore City, a teacher was brutally beaten up by students and the admin/principal said the victim said "trigger words."
She was trying to defend herself and was not paying the thugs/students any mind.

Bullying still runs rampant and admin bats a blind eye.
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fr8mech
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:27 pm

And, in today's news: our state high school athletic administration issued a piece of guidance that said schools should discourage the practice of teams lining up and shaking hands (it's not really shaking, it's more like low-5's) after a game because the practice may lead to fights.

I applaud some of the athletic directors across the state that said they would ignore the guidance.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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cmf
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:20 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 30):
But a drawing of a gun is not a gun. They choose to equate it with a gun. A gun-shaped pop-tart is not a gun, but the administrators choose to call it a gun and apply the stupidity.

Where have I said it is the same? I'm the one saying there must be room for these distinctions. Do you really think it is the administrators at the schools who make the decision that a drawing is the same? Of course it isn't. This is nothing but an extension of the seven dirty words.
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zippyjet
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 12:42 am

And don't forget the new rules where you can't keep score and anything that moves gets a trophy for participating. It's the Trophy Industrial Complex In Full Action!
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fr8mech
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:35 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 36):
Do you really think it is the administrators at the schools who make the decision that a drawing is the same? Of course it isn't.

Then who is it? Find me a school regulation that says a child can't draw a gun or point his finger at another student. It is the teachers and administrators that choose to interpret those as violations of the zero-tolerance policy on gun possession.

I think we're on the same page here...just different paragraphs. I believe that the administrators have a much wider latitude that you believe they have.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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cmf
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 38):
Find me a school regulation that says a child can't draw a gun or point his finger at another student. I

Find me a regulation that says it is OK to make threats.
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zckls04
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:32 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 38):
I think we're on the same page here...just different paragraphs. I believe that the administrators have a much wider latitude that you believe they have.

Maybe they do, but my argument is that given the number of idiotic lawsuits that people file, the school administrators simply can't predict any more what is right and what is wrong. It may seem simple to you, until somebody sues the school for promoting gun violence or something.

We live in an age where everybody (especially pushy parents) wants something for nothing. Plus there's always 100 unscrupulous lawyers willing to take a case in the hope the school can't afford to fight it and goes for a quick settlement (which they usually do).

Of course there are exceptions, but I lay the blame for these sort of stories squarely at the feet of the parents. They're the ones who demand the zero-tolerance rules in the first place (because it sounds like a good thing even though it isn't), they're the ones who want money given to them for free and they're the ones who convince themselves that they're victims to get it.
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:43 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 39):
Find me a regulation that says it is OK to make threats.

Oh come on... there is a difference between kids being kids and playing around vs one maliciously/seriously saying I'm gonna shoot you or kill you while making a finger gun. I'm not sure if you're arguing what the rules technically say or what common sense is, but I'm arguing the the latter
 
cmf
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:17 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
Oh come on... there is a difference between kids being kids and playing around vs one maliciously/seriously saying I'm gonna shoot you or kill you while making a finger gun. I'm not sure if you're arguing what the rules technically say or what common sense is, but I'm arguing the the latter

I'm arguing that administrators should not be used as scapegoats.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:24 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 42):
I'm arguing that administrators should not be used as scapegoats.

I agree, to an extent, but sometimes I see the cases where they actually have discretion involves the administrators acting poorly. But you are right, if a teacher comes to the administrator with a zero tolerance infraction, sometimes the administrator will have to act
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:15 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 39):
Find me a regulation that says it is OK to make threats.

Really? You need an answer to that? The pop-tart was a threat? The drawing a threat? The kid pointing a finger at his pal and saying bang, a threat? You're reaching.

Quoting cmf (Reply 42):
I'm arguing that administrators should not be used as scapegoats.

I'm not saying they should be scapegoats. There is plenty of responsibility to go around. But, and think you'll agree, the teacher and the administrator are the primary 'filters'. They are the first folks in authority that have to make a decision...and they appear to suck at those decisions when it comes to 'zero tolerance'.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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cmf
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:25 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 44):
Really? You need an answer to that? The pop-tart was a threat? The drawing a threat? The kid pointing a finger at his pal and saying bang, a threat? You're reaching.

You're using extreme cases to pretend they are the norm. You don't allow for that they are casualties from overzealous people forcing administrators hands.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 44):
They are the first folks in authority that have to make a decision...and they appear to suck at those decisions when it comes to 'zero tolerance'.

I think we tied their hands.
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zippyjet
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:35 am

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 44):
Quoting cmf (Reply 42):
I'm arguing that administrators should not be used as scapegoats.

I'm not saying they should be scapegoats. There is plenty of responsibility to go around. But, and think you'll agree, the teacher and the administrator are the primary 'filters'. They are the first folks in authority that have to make a decision...and they appear to suck at those decisions when it comes to 'zero tolerance'.

Got an idea! LEt's make a reality show where we take a bunch of lawyers, bankers, administrators, and Wall
St. you know what throw them in a ring and let them fight each other to the death. This could replace the vile barbaric sports of cock and dog fighting.

My respect for paper pusher administrators is a couple of steps higher than that infamous coach that got caught with his pants down with one too many boys why, a few years ago in Baltimore City, the school administrators managed to lose some small change to the tune of 50 million dollars! And their virtual condoning of school students beating up innocent people on busses saying the victims must have said "trigger words."   
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fr8mech
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:26 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 45):
I think we tied their hands.

That's a cop-out. We haven't tied their hands...they've tied them up all by themselves. If an administrator wanted to do what was right, he would do it and take on the system. But, the administrators don't want to take on the system, because they are part of that system.

To suggest a student is promoting violence for wearing an NRA T-shirt is preposterous. To suggest that a six year old pointing a finger-gun "constituted a threat of gun violence" is ridiculous on its face.

I suggest that these administrators have their own (or the school boards') agenda that they are following.

Quoting cmf (Reply 45):
You're using extreme cases to pretend they are the norm.

I'm not pretending they are the norm. I most certainly hope they are not the norm. I suspect they're more wide-spread than we know. How many of these cases exist where the parents just rolled over and allowed the school administration to label their child as some sort of deviant because of these so-called violations of the a zero-tolerance policy on guns or violence?
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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cmf
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:36 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 47):
they've tied them up all by themselves.

Except they didn't.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 47):
he would do it and take on the system.

You're saying they haven't?

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 47):
To suggest a student is promoting violence for wearing an NRA T-shirt is preposterous.

1) Since when does NRA not promote solving perceived problems with violence? If there is an intruder in your house, use violence. If you fear for your life, use violence?

2) I'm sure you will find some place where they said it was denied because NRA promote violence but reality is that it is a statement about a very specific way to solve problems that many people do not agree with. Are you as open to other similar statements? How many NRA members will support kids in school wearing t-shirts promoting the use of contraceptives and abortions? Or how about religious messages?

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 47):
I suggest that these administrators have their own (or the school boards') agenda that they are following.

Of course the administrators follow the school board's agenda, they are required to. You select the school board. Most of the time directly sometime indirectly.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 47):
How many of these cases exist where the parents just rolled over and allowed the school administration to label their child as some sort of deviant because of these so-called violations of the a zero-tolerance policy on guns or violence?

You tell me. But remember who is setting the school boards agenda.
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fr8mech
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RE: Have School Admistrators Lost All Their Sense?

Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:30 am

And, another victim of a zero-tolerance policy.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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