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iowaman
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U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:09 pm

Due to length of part two here is part three.

Part two: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 2 (by iowaman Oct 4 2013 in Non Aviation)
 
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Tugger
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:22 pm

My hope is that the Republican's in the will at least temporarily abandon the "Hastert Rule" and instead of only allowing votes to proceed if they have a majority of "the Majority", allow a vote on a bill that has an overall chance of passing. Its a tough sell though, the Hastert rule has been terrific for power politics and centralizing the political power to the party's instead of the senior legislators.

We'll see. I still do not think we will default on the debt, I am confident that No one wants that form my fellow Republican's to the Democrat's across the aisle.

Tugg
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Aesma
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:32 pm

I was reading about that rule the other day and apparently it has already been broken 3-4 times this year alone.
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casinterest
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:42 pm

I think we are watching the death of the current GOP

The house has flaked out, and it will take the senate to put the house against a wall for a vote
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
CPH-R
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:03 am

An interesting look at the 3 large groups at the base of the Republican Party these days, what their fears are, and why they're so determined to stand their ground in the budget/debt ceiling debate: http://www.democracycorps.com/Republ...ea-party-and-moderate-republicans/
 
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WarRI1
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:29 am

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/polit...peached-if-gop-causes-debt-default



We wonder why we are screwed up. If this line of reasoning is widespread, we are doomed in this country as far as restoring any semblance of sanity to our politics. The government shutdown will be nothing. What was John McCain thinking?
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smittyone
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:38 am

 
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Revelation
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:21 am

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...-11e3-be86-6aeaa439845b_story.html says:

Quote:

rank-and-file lawmakers normally supportive of leadership expressed alarm that they had shut down the government and would get nothing for it except a punitive measure hurting their own staff’s healthcare, according to GOP chiefs of staff.

So it's just dawning on them that if they play with fire they may get burned?

Also

Quote:

Fitch Ratings, a credit rating agency, announced Tuesday afternoon that it was accelerating its timetable for a potential U.S. credit rating downgrade, among the first concrete effects of the standoff. If Fitch follows through, it would become the second credit rating firm to downgrade U.S. government debt, potentially triggering ripple effects across a range of financial markets.

Here comes the fire...

Yet the article quotes Boehner as saying:

Quote:

“I have made clear for months and months that the idea of default is wrong and we shouldn’t get anywhere close to it,” Boehner said.

Perhaps Boehner should have mad a stand months and months ago? Now he's between a rock and a hard place...
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par13del
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:21 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
We'll see. I still do not think we will default on the debt, I am confident that No one wants that form my fellow Republican's to the Democrat's across the aisle.

Methinks no one believes that the GOP in the house would let the nation default, personally I think that is a false logic.
If the US does not hit the ceiling it will be because Boehner decides to have a vote without the majority of his party support,
that leaves only two questions.

1. How much add ons would the Dems put on the bill
2. How good a retirement plan Boehner has as the GOP will get rid of him on grounds of principle.
 
D L X
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:36 am

My friend suggested this:

the thing about the Speakership is that the entire body, not just one party caucus, votes on who the Speaker of the House is. So, a Republican with 200 Democrats needs only 19 Republicans friends to gain the Speakership. THAT IS A SMALL NUMBER!

All that is necessary to get this ball rolling is for one Republican with the support of 19 other Republicans to move for the removal of Speaker Boehner and installation of him/herself. Pass the budget, and reopen the government.

And the Haestert Rule is then dead.
 
PHX787
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:21 am

Republicans have offered these options:

Repeal Obamacare
Delay Obamacare
Repeal Medical device tax
Low spending option, debt ceiling increase
Strip Obamacare from the debt ceiling increase, yet keep spending cuts and open government

What have democrats offered to the Republicans?
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mt99
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:31 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
What have democrats offered to the Republicans?

Have the Republicans really offered that? Boehner cannot get the votes.. they have offered nothing.

What a joke.
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par13del
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:32 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 9):
So, a Republican with 200 Democrats needs only 19 Republicans friends to gain the Speakership. THAT IS A SMALL NUMBER!

With all due respect, do you really believe that the Democrats in the House would side with Republicans to elect a Republican Speaker, especially after this fiasco and the goings on in the House for the last few years?
I am not saying it is impossible and hope does spring eternal, but the Dems are just as stubborn in getting their own way as the GOP, the last time they controlled the House Nancy was just as draconian.

As it relates to this issue, both parties had members on the committee which put the sequester into play, and they were negotiating for something like 6 months. The Senate has been passing CR's since 2000, failure to pass a budget predates the Tea Party.
The Tea Party is a lightning rod no question, but the other side is just as adamant, I mean with the nation due to create a fiscal crisis the first thing one reads is that the nation is holding the GOP more responsible for this than the Dems, the consequences are secondary.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:34 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
What have democrats offered to the Republicans?

Some of those "options" are similar to the Democrats offering to pass the budget as long as the US bans all guns or if we raise minimum wage to $25.00/hr. Yeah, they offered something, but do they honestly think it would pass?

Go to the link SmittyOne posted in this thread... look at what the GOP has been doing. They are just trying to cripple the ACA in whatever random way they can. It looks really immature. Now, admittedly, as much as I blame the GOP for the shut down, there are things I disagree with on the Democrat side as you can see in the same link

I'm completely for an honest debate on the ACA, but Zach, how can you defend the GOP in this situation? They are bringing no ideas to the table, and thus, their inability to come up with ANYTHING good, shut down the government, claiming that the Democrats refusing to agree to their ridiculous "compromises" means they are not negotiating and blah blah blah.
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:44 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
My hope is that the Republican's in the will at least temporarily abandon the "Hastert Rule" and instead of only allowing votes to proceed if they have a majority of "the Majority", allow a vote on a bill that has an overall chance of passing. Its a tough sell though, the Hastert rule has been terrific for power politics and centralizing the political power to the party's instead of the senior legislators.

We'll see. I still do not think we will default on the debt, I am confident that No one wants that form my fellow Republican's to the Democrat's across the aisle.

I would like to see the "Hastert rule" dropped as well, especially given the current makeup of Congress. I bring up the Senator Obama double standard in the other thread, because there seems to be this belief that the Republicans are behaving badly (they are), but that the Democrats are special snowflakes (they're not).

We have a party that is engaging in crazy brinksmanship and hostage taking on the debt ceiling and really needs to drop the act. The public is getting tired of the act. And then we have another party that can't build a functioning website after 3+ years and hundreds of millions of dollars, because as Avik Roy has nicely demonstrated, it was so busy trying to hide the true costs (ie without subsidies) of its legislation from health care consumers, it didn't even have time to beta test its site to make sure it worked.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapoth...u-to-know-health-plans-true-costs/

"A growing consensus of IT experts, outside and inside the government, have figured out a principal reason why the website for Obamacare’s federally-sponsored insurance exchange is crashing. Healthcare.gov forces you to create an account and enter detailed personal information before you can start shopping. This, in turn, creates a massive traffic bottleneck, as the government verifies your information and decides whether or not you’re eligible for subsidies. HHS bureaucrats knew this would make the website run more slowly. But they were more afraid that letting people see the underlying cost of Obamacare’s insurance plans would scare people away."

Seems fitting and just that both sides have become so extreme that they have let politics dictate literally ALL decision making (even on the debt ceiling and on websites), and now they are both paying the price. We really deserve better than these clowns.
 
N867DA
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:46 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Some of those "options" are similar to the Democrats offering to pass the budget as long as the US bans all guns or if we raise minimum wage to $25.00/hr. Yeah, they offered something, but do they honestly think it would pass?

  

How on earth do you condone holding an entire nation hostage over legislation that has already passed?! The tea party must think higher of the Democrats than themselves if they are so sure Democrats won't resort to such low tactics when they are the minority party.
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StuckInCA
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:54 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 15):
How on earth do you condone holding an entire nation hostage over legislation that has already passed?!

This is really the point. ACA is passed. The GOP is crying over spilled milk and their tears are acid.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:01 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Some of those "options" are similar to the Democrats offering to pass the budget as long as the US bans all guns or if we raise minimum wage to $25.00/hr. Yeah, they offered something, but do they honestly think it would pass?

Go to the link SmittyOne posted in this thread... look at what the GOP has been doing. They are just trying to cripple the ACA in whatever random way they can. It looks really immature. Now, admittedly, as much as I blame the GOP for the shut down, there are things I disagree with on the Democrat side as you can see in the same link

I'm completely for an honest debate on the ACA, but Zach, how can you defend the GOP in this situation? They are bringing no ideas to the table, and thus, their inability to come up with ANYTHING good, shut down the government, claiming that the Democrats refusing to agree to their ridiculous "compromises" means they are not negotiating and blah blah blah.

Absolutely, this is madness, give up your most important legislative accomplishment, surrender, take what we offer. This is from the party who lost the Presidency, and does not control the Senate. They are mad, they are radical, they are screwing with our well being, our reputation around the world, our financial system, and I pray they get paid in full next election. Where are the wealthy when you need them? Where is all the influence they wield with our congress? Dumbfounding!! Where are our business leaders? Surely they will suffer also?
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WarRI1
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:19 am

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...re-no-longer-the-party-of-business


This is an answer to the question I posed earlier. Where are the business people? They do not give a damn about them either according to this article. They are nuts.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
NAV20
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:45 am

Pretty good interview here (from our 'Melbourne Age' newspaper - video at top of article) which spells out the likely worldwide international consequences of any US default. Hope it's of interest:-

http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-sh...-of-the-absurd-20131016-2vlgb.html
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RyanairGuru
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:58 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 12):
With all due respect, do you really believe that the Democrats in the House would side with Republicans to elect a Republican Speaker

  

The problem is that whoever is next Speaker (if there is, indeed, a change) will probably be much further right than Boehner is. I railed against him when the government first shut down, but at the end of the day Boehner isn't the problem. He is relatively moderate, and does actually care about getting stuff done. He is, however, hamstrung by his caucus, and the Democrats would be dumb to side with that caucus to remove him. If they play with fire they will almost certainly get burned.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Some of those "options" are similar to the Democrats offering to pass the budget as long as the US bans all guns or if we raise minimum wage to $25.00/hr. Yeah, they offered something, but do they honestly think it would pass?

      

Nobody is "negotiating" if their LBFO is something they know that they other side won't agree to.
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seb146
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:04 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
What have democrats offered to the Republicans?

To open the government and raise the debt ceiling so we don't go into default.

Republicans had their chance to add things to ACA but the only thing they could add was "NO! We won't allow that! NO!"

Boehner already said his caucus got 99% of what they asked for in sequestration. How is that compromise when one side gets 99% of what they want? What did Republicans give up?

Let's not forget that, just before the Republican shut down, they changed House rules so no one but the Majority Leader can call for a floor vote. How democratic. "My way or the highway".
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RyanairGuru
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 8:31 am

Quote:
As America stands on the brink of running out of money to pay its bills, the Republican leadership in the House raised pointless grandstanding to an art form.

More than that, in just a few hours they hit on a formula that flawlessly exposed their own division, underscored their leadership's weakness and highlighted the extent of their humiliation
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24545697
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PHX787
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:37 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 22):
More than that, in just a few hours they hit on a formula that flawlessly exposed their own division, underscored their leadership's weakness and highlighted the extent of their humiliation

Once again, the BBC hits it right on the head.

America is too blindly divided, and Obama's rhetoric only makes things worse (leadership's weakness part of the quote)
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NBGSkyGod
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:18 am

Here is the problem I have with the GOP in all of this. The Democrats have said they will not budge on any legislation regarding the ACA, I agree with this, since so much money as been spent on getting the program started, that going back would just be a waste at this point. In addition to this point, like it has been stated dozens of times in previous threads, it is a law that has passed, been verified by all of the systems in place to ensure that it is legal.

The fact that the GOP would then try to pass a bill with more changes to ACA is simply trying to shift the blame for default from them to the Democrats, by saying "look we tried to pass a bill to reopen the government and raise the debt ceiling, but they didn't want to pass it, it's their fault!"
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NAV20
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:58 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
and Obama's rhetoric only makes things worse (leadership's weakness part of the quote)

Sorry, PHX787 - it's abundantly clear that the BBC quote refers specifically to the Republican leadership?
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Revelation
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:33 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 18):
This is an answer to the question I posed earlier. Where are the business people? They do not give a damn about them either according to this article. They are nuts.

I found the following to be interesting:

Quote:

“Republicans are not the party of business anymore,” says Robert Shapiro, chairman of the economic advisory firm Sonecon. “They’re the party of antigovernment.”

It seems the extremists in the GOP really are going to alienate a core constituency, big business. It makes one wonder who the TPers think will left standing if they succeed in driving the government into default.

Here's a revealing quote:

Quote:

Asked by the Associated Press if he had heard business groups express alarm about the economic impact of a shutdown, Republican Representative Dana Rohrabacher of California replied, “No. And it wouldn’t make any difference if I did.”

Talking about walking around with blinders on. Seems his constituents will remember such statements:

Quote:

The GOP also risks losing the political support of businessmen such as Gentle, who have traditionally been a pillar of the party establishment. “When talk of a shutdown first began, the perception among businesspeople I know was that this was just Washington being Washington again,” Gentle says. “Now they’re saying, ‘This is really getting in the way of operating my business.’ The business world is hard enough without Republicans making it even more difficult.' It’s just ridiculous.”

Amazing that the hard cores just don't care about business any more.

As for yesterday's wrangling, I found the following news interesting:

Quote:

Ironically, the current debacle began with Boehner’s friends in the Senate — recognizing that McConnell was close to a deal with Reid — deciding to pause those talks to give Boehner a chance to consolidate his weakening hold on power.

If Boehner had been able to rally support for a measure more palatable to Republicans, it would have strengthened McConnell’s hand.

Boehner “would establish himself as the leader of the House, which is good for the country,” Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R-S.C.) told reporters as he left the Senate GOP’s weekly luncheon Tuesday afternoon. “This is offense for us,” Graham said optimistically. “This is a defining moment for the speaker.”

Ref: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...1e3-be86-6aeaa439845b_story_2.html

Seems the speaker just doesn't have the juice. His allies in the Senate passed the ball to him because the GOP has the majority in the House. The idea was that they could craft a bill that has at least some perks in it, but he dropped the ball.

It amazes me that the GOP as a whole still expects some sort of reward for the shutdown and driving the country towards default. The fact that sequester is still in place and will hit with another 10% in January still doesn't seem to be enough for them. The fact the Dems have publicly agreed to wide ranging budget discussions doesn't seem to be enough for them. They seem to feel that steering the ship towards the rocks will hurt everyone but themselves, which is absurd.
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bmacleod
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:50 pm

Less than 15 hours to debt ceiling deadline, boths sides no closer to a deal; odds are government will default for first time in history. So what will happen tommorow?
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:30 pm

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 24):

It's a small faction of the GOP. They don't seem to give a rip either. It seems they want to put offers out there, then waste negotiation time by walking away at the last minute. They are probably in a position where they don't have to worry about re-election either and it's clear they think it's funny. I hate Obummercare as much as any other conservative, but this shit is getting old.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 27):

We will all wake up, eat breakfast, and go to work. A couple of ass hats in DC will probably still be causing problems.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 3):

You're watching what should be the death of the Tea Party.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
NAV20
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:50 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 27):
So what will happen tommorow?

My money's still on a last-minute climb-down - or an 'eleventh-hour' one, anyway. Basically the Republicans finding a way to 'bow out,' as gracefully as possible. Reason being that, if they allow/cause the economy of the United States to collapse - with parallel results across most of the rest of the western world - they won't get elected again for the next ten years or so.

Hope I'm right. Any more of this nonsense is going to hurt us here in Australia just as much as it hurts Americans........

[Edited 2013-10-16 07:39:36]
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casinterest
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:04 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 28):

You're watching what should be the death of the Tea Party.

When 40% + of the GOP supports the Tea Party, it isn't going to be just one.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
They are bringing no ideas to the table, and thus, their inability to come up with ANYTHING good, shut down the government, claiming that the Democrats refusing to agree to their ridiculous "compromises" means they are not negotiating and blah blah blah.

        
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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seb146
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 24):
"look we tried to pass a bill to reopen the government and raise the debt ceiling, but they didn't want to pass it, it's their fault!"

Says the party of personal responsibility.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
PHX787
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:28 pm

Jesus christ this thread is a bunch of ignorant leftist rhetoric and nothing productive has come from it.
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Revelation
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:30 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
Basically the Republicans finding a way to 'bow out,' as gracefully as possible.

The problem is that they were offered exactly that last night and they could not find a way to do what you suggest. There are enough GOPers who say they will never vote for another raise in the debt ceiling and enough who insist on getting some sort of reward for shutting the government down and enough who will not vote for anything that does not cripple Obamacare. Boehner tried all day to get a consensus to avoid default and he could not find one. Given the current House rules (Hastert etc) no measure can be brought to a vote in the House without Boehner's approval. Also it is very easy for any GOP Senator to delay the progress of the Senate side bill and of course Boehner will be loathe to let the House vote on a bill originated by the Senate.

Seems at best the Senate bill might be completed and passed to the House where political pressures might force Boehner to at least offer it for a vote, but that's an awful lot of 'mights'.

As above, there are several GOP "default deniers" who are perfectly OK with defaulting. I think they will live to regret such thoughts.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Boeing717200
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:32 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 30):

When 40% + of the GOP supports the Tea Party, it isn't going to be just one.


You're playing loose with the stats. 40% supporting does not equate to 40% of the seats being controlled by or in areas where a Tea Party candidate would be electable. The Tea Party is about to get completely marginalized.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
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casinterest
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:49 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 34):
You're playing loose with the stats. 40% supporting does not equate to 40% of the seats being controlled by or in areas where a Tea Party candidate would be electable. The Tea Party is about to get completely marginalized

The tea party will, but the GOP itself is going to be marginalized as well. The issue here being that the Tea party was always a part of the GOP. The GOP holds or held onto a lot of Moderates and independents that trusted in Fiscal soundness. This brinkmanship will cause a lot of moderates/independents to migrate to other choices. The Democratic party is already leading on social issues.

One thing I know, is that there will always be at least two parties. Even if the GOP goes down. However it will take a platform change for the GOP to survive.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
NAV20
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:02 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
As above, there are several GOP "default deniers" who are perfectly OK with defaulting. I think they will live to regret such thoughts.

Frankly horrifying, Revelation. I guess most of us realise, these days, that ever since most places went off the gold standard, 'money' has been a fiction? It's only 'value' has rested on the fact that if 'ordinary Joes' like us offer it, other 'Joes' accept it? If they DON'T, it's just waste paper..

Older cousin of mine had a pretty 'heroic' role in WW2, and later played a part in occupying Germany. I recall him finding out that I was 'doing' economics at university. Cousin Alec was a pretty bright guy, as well as being a much decorated 'hero' - we got talking, and he told me, way back in the late fifties, that, for the first couple of years after WW2, outside barracks, the only 'currency' that had any sort of stable value in West Germany was cigarettes.........

Hope people 'pull back' from this nonsense. If they don't, the consequences will most definitely be dire.......
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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Revelation
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:15 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 36):
Hope people 'pull back' from this nonsense.

I do too. The "monied interests" within the GOP have been sending the message to knock it off, but the ideologues are just not listening. Running the risk of default and crashing the economy should be something they'd notice, but I'm seeing no evidence of that right now.
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D L X
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:16 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 12):
With all due respect, do you really believe that the Democrats in the House would side with Republicans to elect a Republican Speaker

Absolutely! If they got one that was willing to work with them, and kill the Hastert rule? Absolutely. It's not a hard question, actually.

The Republican with 19 members supporting him would be a far cry from the type of Republicans (tea party) that the Democrats would be unwilling to elect. When your choice is Republican or Republican, you pick the Republican that doesn't stink.
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:30 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 32):
Jesus christ this thread is a bunch of ignorant leftist rhetoric and nothing productive has come from it.

The problem is that even to be centerist in this debate, we so far left of what is going on. This is what happens when the far side of any system gets a hold of power, it tips the balance. Center is no longer center, now we look like left-wing commies, just because we don't agree with current base of power in Congress.
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:40 pm

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/1...-ceiling-default-update-98390.html

It looks like there is a way out yet!

Quote:
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell will soon announce an agreement to reopen the government and avert default on U.S. debt, according to several sources familiar with the talks.

The House plans to move on the Senate’s bill first, sources say, a move that would clear a path to end the first government shutdown in 17 years and avoid the first potential economy-shaking default on U.S. debt. It remains unclear when a final vote would occur in the Senate.

If the House passes the bill first and sends it to the upper chamber, it would eliminate some burdensome procedural hurdles in the Senate and require just one procedural roll call with a 60-vote threshold needed to advance the bill toward final passage in the Senate.

It could be an extraordinarily risky play for Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio), because it’s far from clear any Senate proposal would garner the majority of the House Republican Conference. House Republicans have clung to the so-called Hastert Rule, a mantra that the House speaker should not try to pass a bill that doesn’t have the support of the “majority of the majority.” In this case, that would mean 117 Republicans must support the bill to avoid getting crosswise with the rule. Top GOP sources say it’s unlikely they will reach that level of support.

But the fact that House Republicans are now planning to go that route marks a stunning reversal for the speaker who had backed his conservative wing’s drive to gut Obamacare as part of the government shutdown fight, now in its third week.
It still is not assured that Congress will send President Barack Obama a bill to sign by Thursday, when the Treasury Department warns the country will start running out of cash to pay its bills. Any senator can also hold up the bill in the Senate past the Thursday deadline, but originating the legislation in the House is the fastest path toward passage for lawmakers and is a sign of urgency in the Capitol
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par13del
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 17):
Where are the wealthy when you need them? Where is all the influence they wield with our congress? Dumbfounding!! Where are our business leaders? Surely they will suffer also?

At present they are getting out of dodge since POTUS and the Dems have already put them on notice that they are not paying their fair share in taxes, so..........

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
My money's still on a last-minute climb-down - or an 'eleventh-hour' one, anyway. Basically the Republicans finding a way to 'bow out,' as gracefully as possible.

Only way I see that happening is if the Hastert rule is dropped.
I see no way for the GOP to claim any kind of victory which seems to be the big thing, winning and loosing, some of them seem to be dead set on curbing government spending and since negotiations - which they initiated - are going nowehere the fall over the cliff is the only way to accomplish their aims.
I'm still in shock that they actually dropped the defunding of Obamacare, go figure  
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
Given the current House rules (Hastert etc) no measure can be brought to a vote in the House without Boehner's approval.

A friend of mine who studies parliamentary procedure and law claimed that this can be overcome. I will quote her.

"According to RoR (75th edition) on standing rules, Article XI, Section 67:

Standing rules should contain only such rules as may be adopted without previous notice by a majority vote at any business meeting. The vote on their adoption, or their amendment, before or after adoption *may be reconsidered* At ANY meeting they may be suspended by a majority vote, or they may be amended or rescinded by a two-thirds vote."

My friend goes on to say, "If 50%+1 of the House can agree to suspend the standing rules amendment that is currently standing in the house, they can at any point in time vote on any Senate bill."

If anybody actually knows more please correct me/her if this is incorrect.
 
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:32 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 42):
A friend of mine who studies parliamentary procedure and law claimed that this can be overcome. I will quote her.

"According to RoR (75th edition) on standing rules, Article XI, Section 67:

Standing rules should contain only such rules as may be adopted without previous notice by a majority vote at any business meeting. The vote on their adoption, or their amendment, before or after adoption *may be reconsidered* At ANY meeting they may be suspended by a majority vote, or they may be amended or rescinded by a two-thirds vote."

My friend goes on to say, "If 50%+1 of the House can agree to suspend the standing rules amendment that is currently standing in the house, they can at any point in time vote on any Senate bill."

If anybody actually knows more please correct me/her if this is incorrect.

If I understand the Hastert Rule correctly, the only way the rule can be suspended, is if the Speaker or their representative bring the measure to the floor, otherwise it is null. That is they way I understand it, so it ties everyone's hands.
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:49 pm

Just radio reports so far, and short of details - but, as far as I can tell, a deal has been done so that the US government will NOT shut down, and things will just continue 'as normal.'

If so, from my POV, fine. We have enough disasters to deal with from 'natural causes,' leave alone 'creating' unnecessary disasters for ourselves...............
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 32):
Jesus christ this thread is a bunch of ignorant leftist rhetoric

Blame applies equally to both sides here. Democrats for putting through a bad bill like ACA that they now have no choice but to defend as it is already the law of the land. Republicans for completely losing sight of the big economic picture and playing political football with a bill they already lost.

The revolving door of Treasury secretaries over the last three decades who have overseen the United States continuing to fund itself via IOUs of its own money to foreign interests.
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par13del
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:54 pm

We know wiki is not always your best friend, but it is at the speakers discretion if he drops the Hastert rule.
If he does he just has to answer to his party on the fallout, he can expect no sympathy from any quarter.
Rock and the Hard Place is where the current speaker resides.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastert_Rule
 
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Aesma
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:54 pm

The Hastert Rule is not a rule of the House, it's just an internal rule of the GOP, and has already been broken several times this year alone, when Boehner put bills to the vote that weren't supported by the majority of the majority.

The problem is that he has already done it, so his position is already weak, so if he does it here he's almost assured to get thrown out by his party. Now, if all the democrats vote for him, and enough republicans, that would be interesting.
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:12 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 40):
It looks like there is a way out yet!

It's subject to all the stuff above, namely:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
Given the current House rules (Hastert etc) no measure can be brought to a vote in the House without Boehner's approval. Also it is very easy for any GOP Senator to delay the progress of the Senate side bill and of course Boehner will be loathe to let the House vote on a bill originated by the Senate.

Seems at best the Senate bill might be completed and passed to the House where political pressures might force Boehner to at least offer it for a vote, but that's an awful lot of 'mights'.

As above, there are several GOP "default deniers" who are perfectly OK with defaulting. I think they will live to regret such thoughts.

I'm hoping that the Senate move motivates the House to act, but there is absolutely no guarantee of that.

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 42):
My friend goes on to say, "If 50%+1 of the House can agree to suspend the standing rules amendment that is currently standing in the house, they can at any point in time vote on any Senate bill."

If anybody actually knows more please correct me/her if this is incorrect.

It seems correct to me.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 45):
Democrats for putting through a bad bill like ACA that they now have no choice but to defend as it is already the law of the land.

The ACA haters had a simple remedy: Elect Romney. It didn't happen because ACA is not a 'bad bill' in the eyes of the electorate as a whole, and because Romney's own party was pretty tepid in their support of him.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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11Bravo
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RE: U.S. Federal Government Shutdown Part 3

Wed Oct 16, 2013 5:53 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 34):
You're playing loose with the stats.

...very, very loose. The actual number is more like 15%-20%. Furthermore, recent polling from several sources suggests that Tea Party support has declined significantly since the start of the shutdown. We are likely to be doing this all over again in Jan/Feb so the Tea Party will have another opportunity to throw more bombs then and completely destroy itself and the American economy.
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