Curious what the forum thinks about the latest news on Angela Merkel and Mexico. My guess is that the furor is raging again in Europe but it's died considerably here in the US. It just feels like now the cat is out of the bag, that the NSA has been spying on friend and foe alike, that not much else could come out that would be "shocking". The one major exception would be anything tied to the UK in my opinion. Canada and Australia are also supposedly exempt, and yet each have considerable business ties to China. I could see that point resulting in some monitoring that has gone undisclosed thus far.

I'm not sure what to make of it, part of me just thinks it's business as usual for a profession as old as prostitution. I also question whether all this outrage from Europe is really meant more to quell internal/continental outrage vs. any real surprise within high level reaches of any impacted country. Does Germany spy on France and vice versa? Do Cameron and his wife get a laugh listening to audio recordings of Berlusconi telling hookers how to get to the back entrance of his Milan apartment? My guess is everyone is doing it but that the US simply blows the doors off the competition with dedicated snooper outfits like the NSA with massive multi billion dollar budgets.

So much ado about nothing or is the US guilty of doing things no one else does (to their "friends")?

Quoting wingman (Thread starter): just thinks it's business as usual for a profession as old as prostitution.

Of course it is. I am surprised that other countries are surprised too. Maybe they have to "act" surprised.

Quoting wingman (Thread starter): outrage from Europe

Outrage from Government or form the population?

What bothers me is what they still manage to keep quiet from us. You have a situation of the fox gaurding the hen house, so to say.

Quoting wingman (Thread starter): that not much else could come out that would be "shocking".

People should listen to the Lavabit/Ladar Levison story, http://twit.tv/show/triangulation/125 .

It is pretty scary how the government required him to give up the ssl keys. On the other hand you have to admire how he handled it.

Yes we do it too, but on a much smaller scale. Besides the NSA is supposed to be doing it for the "war on terror" but clearly it's used for economic and diplomatic wars.

I'm not surprised that the US populace is not bothered by its government spying on foreign citizens, but I don't understand how they can't see and react to the fact that they're being spied on too. The NSA is the new STASI.

A question, what damaging information will one government learn from its friends, or the flip side, what information would a friend not want to share with its friend because it is damaging?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4): but I don't understand how they can't see and react to the fact that they're being spied on too. The NSA is the new STASI.

Too many have been brainwashed by Fox and/or are stupid to realise it.

Quoting wingman (Thread starter): I'm not sure what to make of it, part of me just thinks it's business as usual for a profession as old as prostitution. I also question whether all this outrage from Europe is really meant more to quell internal/continental outrage vs. any real surprise within high level reaches of any impacted country. Does Germany spy on France and vice versa?

Well there's "intelligence", which every country does - which is staying current on developments in other countries, following all available sources of information, having "contacts" in inner circles of other countries, and so on... and then there's blatant cybercrime, like tapping the mobile phone of the leader of an allied country. And no, that's not "business as usual". Imagine the outrage if the German secret service had broken into Barack Obama's phone and listened to it for close to a decade.

Nonetheless, the reaction of the German government to the latest leaks is extremely hypocritical. So far, the government has done nothing but downplaying the NSA affair, denying that it was a legitimate concern and putting it down to "anti-Americanism". Now, since the Chancellor's phone is affected, suddenly there's an outrage. Quite the double standard.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4): I'm not surprised that the US populace is not bothered by its government spying on foreign citizens, but I don't understand how they can't see and react to the fact that they're being spied on too. The NSA is the new STASI.

It's all part of the new "screw civil liberties, if you're a law-abiding citizen you have nothing to fear" mantra, which could potentially lead straight into totalitarianism.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4): The NSA is the new STASI.

Really? The NSA is the equivalent of the GDR Stasi?
Really?

So by that rationale, the NSA is a body tasked with enforcing the will of a non-democratic, Communist dictatorial regime that slavishly marched in lock-step with an even MORE dictatorial regime (i.e. the USSR)? I understand (and share) the disenchantment with the NSA possibly spying on supposed allied nations, but I'm afraid that comparing them to the Stasi goes several steps too far.

Even though we disagree, respect and good wishes to you, my friend.

The US isn't doing anything the European countries aren't doing it's just that it's supposed to stay a secret.  

Other governments know or have known that the US spies on other countries. Russia was known to send satellites over Area 51 and other sites. Other developed countries have and still do it. Ever watch the Bourne series? Although Hollywood and some fiction it gives you an idea why the NSA, CIA... do what they do.

Difference is due to recent events government employees outed the government to the world. Thanks to modern technology media infiltration and news reports everything that wasn't news back then is news now but people act surprised when it's reported.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 8): Really? The NSA is the equivalent of the GDR Stasi? Really?

Yep. Pretty much. The enforcing part works differently, but the all-encompassing surveillance and the total ruthlessness and absence of any restraint in that is very similar.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 9): The US isn't doing anything the European countries aren't doing it's just that it's supposed to stay a secret.

You can be quite sure that german services do not bug the phones of allied heads of government, particularly not of the US president.

Effectively we've known for decades (since the Echelon system became known) that the US and the other members of the "five eyes" are spying on their allies, particularly including political and commercial espionage.

This is where the Merkel government playing suprised is a bit amusing (particularly in combination with their complete indifference to the NSA affair before this point when it "only" was about regular citizens being spied on).

The thing is just that the entire US surveillance apparatus has gone so far out of any reasonable control by now that it begins to fall on the feet of US interests to an increasing degree.

The US handling of it is utterly disgraceful. When you're being caught publically in having spied on and undeniably having lied to your own allies while you're aggressively persecuting whistleblowers, your standing just erodes, and with it your chances of getting your way in issues which require public support around the world. You may also lose preferential treatment which you may once have enjoyed.

While the "tea party" was busy ruining the USA at home and presenting its imbecile clown show to the world, the NSA is pretty much doing that job with what little standing had been left abroad after the catastrophic Bush/Cheney years (of which those programs are still an inheritance).

I don't see this ending well, even if it takes some further snowballing from here.

The USA are increasingly looking like a failing power. The world can't afford to look to them for solutions any more when they can't even begin to solve their own homegrown problems. Power is to some degree built on trust. And that trust is evaporating rapidly.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 8):

The U.S. isn't close to what it used to be. Right now, I would say that the late USSR (During Perestroika and Glastnost - 1986+) had more freedoms than what you have right now. I am not exaggerating either. Honestly serious.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11): The enforcing part works differently,

Hi Klaus,
My friend, I disagree with you, but unlike most of my countrymen, I wish to counter with a well-reasoned and non-hysterical argument. I would first offer, though, that the "enforcing part" working differently, to which you refer, is a pretty darn important detail to be cast off as a mere formality.

I think we can agree on some common ground, though: I would agree that the SCOPE of surveillance (NSA vs Stasi) is similar. As an American, I'm also not thrilled about the NSA supposedly 'spying' on Allied countries. (Then again, the Israelis have been spying on the USA for decades....and the USA, to my knowledge, basically looks the other way on that)

With that said, nobody here is getting sent to prison indefinitely and without trial by the NSA for listening to 'Radio Free Canada" or having a casual conversation wherein they speak ill of President Obama. To compare the NSA with the Stasi is not reasonable. Pure conjecture here, but I'm guessing that, if you lived in East Berlin in 1965 and told your neighbors that "Lenin was a clown", you'd find yourself in the klink, or at least being questioned by a scary dude from the Stasi or the NVA in pretty short order. On the other hand, I can literally hang a sign out of my balcony that says "Obama Sucks" and neither the NSA, FBI, CIA, IRS, ATF, or any other government acronym is going to hassle me.

With all due respect, I think that to compare the NSA, with all of its faults, to an organ dedicated to the absolute, unforgiving, and total iron-fist repression of a portion of Germany to the will of Communist apparatchiks of another country is specious and unreasonable.

Again, their scope of surveillance can be compared, but throwing around comparisons to the Stasi, KGB, etc. has real (and not favorable) meaning for those of us who remember the Cold War.

Peace.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 12): The U.S. isn't close to what it used to be. Right now, I would say that the late USSR (During Perestroika and Glastnost - 1986+) had more freedoms than what you have right now. I am not exaggerating either. Honestly serious.

If we were talking about getting on a commercial airplane, I would be inclined to agree with you. TSA ~ KGB
Outside of that, the assertion is laughable.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 9): The US isn't doing anything the European countries aren't doing it's just that it's supposed to stay a secret.

This bugging of Merkel's phone dates from 2002, so how would it have been received in the US had it come out that Bush was being bugged by a European ally?
No doubt a range of outrage, calls for economic retaliation right up to screaming for war.
The usual hysterics in other words.

Remember too how all this has come out, Snowden is no traitor in the usual sense of the word, he left a good job, a hot girlfriend, all his friends and family knowing few of the likely outcomes for him were likely to be good.
Why? He was outraged by seeing, on TV, the head of the NSA telling barefaced lies to lawmakers - a criminal act in itself.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 11): The USA are increasingly looking like a failing power.

Not sure about a "failing power", but maybe a power that has grown weary of being expected to provide (i.e. pay for) overwhelming military power, well in excess of what is required to actually defend itself (given oceans on either side and two large, friendly nations on its north and south borders). And maybe a power who has grown weary of constantly being the world's punching bag, the target of unrelenting criticism from the same nations who sell their souls to do business with the likes of China (who wouldn't know democracy if it came up to it and said 'Hi, China, I'm Democracy" ) and whose human rights record is absolutely abysmal....all of which is conveniently forgotten when it comes time to putting business deals together by the same people who hold out the USA as the scourge of humanity.

Here's a proposal: The 'World's Policeman" retires, as so many people say they want, and the US draws down its military presence to simply a homeland defensive force...a carrier battle group on each coast, sufficient subs and ships to patrol the oceans. Planes, missiles, and troops sufficient to patrol the borders, defend the homeland, and deter any possible attack.

Then let the rest of the world fend for itself.
Good luck!

PS -- I will NEVER deny that the US government has made more miscues than I care to recall, and there's a lot of nonsense going on here. But for the love of God....we're NOT the bad guys!

Quoting wingman (Thread starter): So much ado about nothing or is the US guilty of doing things no one else does (to their "friends")?

It is the amount of spying the US does, the fact that the US actively misuses commercial busineses such as Facebook etc to gather random information on everyone, the fact that the US has outsourced part of it's inteligence to private companies and the fact that the US spies on what must be considered very good friends and allies and it's leaders without hesitation and with no obvious good reason. If it's true that the US has spied on several 10 of millions of French and german People and 38 world leaders, it's not about keeping the US and the world safe anymore. It's paranoia. The result of this is that important inteligence gathering between allies, become a problem. Allies need to be able to trust eachother and now this trust is losing ground and the only ones benefitting from that are terrorists who wants to harm us. They like the havock that such mistrust creates and I for one am concerned that they can use that against us.

Apparently Snowden also has documents about US spying on Norway ...


Most countries has spies and inteligence agencies. But there are also various types of inteligence to be gathered: Millitary / defence information, political information, financial and business inteligence. Some countries are involved in all types of gathering, others only millitary / defence information on current and future foes.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 16): Here's a proposal: The 'World's Policeman" retires, as so many people say they want, and the US draws down its military presence to simply a homeland defensive force...a carrier battle group on each coast, sufficient subs and ships to patrol the oceans. Planes, missiles, and troops sufficient to patrol the borders, defend the homeland, and deter any possible attack.

Feel free. The world is not stopping you. However, Your politicians would never let that happen, as being world policeman is very important to Your leaders. Gives them Power ... The reason why you have such a huge millitary machine, bases around the world, spysattelites, listning stations and boots on the ground around the world, is because it's US official policy. It's official US policy to fight any possible wars away from US soil and also to pose a US pressence and serve US interests abroad.

[Edited 2013-10-27 03:54:35]

[Edited 2013-10-27 03:58:50]

Quoting kric777 (Reply 16): Here's a proposal: The 'World's Policeman" retires, as so many people say they want, and the US draws down its military presence to simply a homeland defensive force...a carrier battle group on each coast, sufficient subs and ships to patrol the oceans. Planes, missiles, and troops sufficient to patrol the borders, defend the homeland, and deter any possible attack. Then let the rest of the world fend for itself. Good luck!

I honestly think that would be a good idea. If all of us so-called "developed nations", Europeans, Americans, Russians, would stay out of the business of other people, I believe the world would become a better place. But it would have to go beyond military intervention. We'd have to stop selling weapons to shady leaders in third-world countries, stop preferential trade agreements, stop grooming our buddies (like Ghadafi etc.) - if we did all that, and let the world "fend for itself", I think the world would do just fine.

Look at how many of the wars we're fighting are actually just the result of our earlier misguided behaviour. If we hadn't supported the Mujahideen against the Soviets, we wouldn't fight the Taliban today.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 16): But for the love of God....we're NOT the bad guys!

Indeed not. But you're not the good guys either. You're just.... guys.   Driven mostly by self-interest, though not quite as cavalier about it as some other nations.

Another thing to consider about Merkel, which I doubt those in the US who are so dismissive about the whole affair have considered. She grew up in East Germany, she knows what life was like with the Stasi looming as a dark presence in the background.

To have a nation that likes to define itself as being the total opposite of that kind of regime, which never fails to lecture others on freedom and the limits of state power, to carry out bugging of a close ally where there is no possible security justification, will incense the German Chancellor.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 8): Really? The NSA is the equivalent of the GDR Stasi? Really? So by that rationale, the NSA is a body tasked with enforcing the will of a non-democratic, Communist dictatorial regime that slavishly marched in lock-step with an even MORE dictatorial regime (i.e. the USSR)? I understand (and share) the disenchantment with the NSA possibly spying on supposed allied nations, but I'm afraid that comparing them to the Stasi goes several steps too far. Even though we disagree, respect and good wishes to you, my friend.

So by your rationale, what the Stasi did was wrong only because the GDR was not democratic ? If a democratic country commits genocide, it's fine ?

Also you seem to have missed the point I was making, that this system is used to spy on US citizens too.

So much belief in what Snowden/Greenwalk release. How do you know it's true?

This is what concerns me... they could potentially release something incredibly false and hugely damaging to the stability of the world. What if he releases a faux report that the US has placed strategic nuclear warheads secretly in China or Russia...or even worse... if the situation was reversed.

Humanity fails if you believe everything you hear while not applying critical thought.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 16): Not sure about a "failing power", but maybe a power that has grown weary of being expected to provide (i.e. pay for) overwhelming military power, well in excess of what is required to actually defend itself (given oceans on either side and two large, friendly nations on its north and south borders). And maybe a power who has grown weary of constantly being the world's punching bag, the target of unrelenting criticism from the same nations who sell their souls to do business with the likes of China (who wouldn't know democracy if it came up to it and said 'Hi, China, I'm Democracy" ) and whose human rights record is absolutely abysmal....all of which is conveniently forgotten when it comes time to putting business deals together by the same people who hold out the USA as the scourge of humanity. Here's a proposal: The 'World's Policeman" retires, as so many people say they want, and the US draws down its military presence to simply a homeland defensive force...a carrier battle group on each coast, sufficient subs and ships to patrol the oceans. Planes, missiles, and troops sufficient to patrol the borders, defend the homeland, and deter any possible attack. Then let the rest of the world fend for itself. Good luck! PS -- I will NEVER deny that the US government has made more miscues than I care to recall, and there's a lot of nonsense going on here. But for the love of God....we're NOT the bad guys!

DING DING DING! And once that door closes.... You can RENT the US Military for a couple of hundred billion dollars. Thank you kindly.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 17): Feel free. The world is not stopping you. However, Your politicians would never let that happen, as being world policeman is very important to Your leaders. Gives them Power ... The reason why you have such a huge millitary machine, bases around the world, spysattelites, listning stations and boots on the ground around the world, is because it's US official policy. It's official US policy to fight any possible wars away from US soil and also to pose a US pressence and serve US interests abroad.

Most beings fail to realize that this is exactly what keeps America in check!

Quoting kric777 (Reply 13): My friend, I disagree with you, but unlike most of my countrymen, I wish to counter with a well-reasoned and non-hysterical argument. I would first offer, though, that the "enforcing part" working differently, to which you refer, is a pretty darn important detail to be cast off as a mere formality.

I haven't done that.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 13): I think we can agree on some common ground, though: I would agree that the SCOPE of surveillance (NSA vs Stasi) is similar.

Which is my point.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 13): With that said, nobody here is getting sent to prison indefinitely and without trial by the NSA for listening to 'Radio Free Canada" or having a casual conversation wherein they speak ill of President Obama. To compare the NSA with the Stasi is not reasonable. Pure conjecture here, but I'm guessing that, if you lived in East Berlin in 1965 and told your neighbors that "Lenin was a clown", you'd find yourself in the klink, or at least being questioned by a scary dude from the Stasi or the NVA in pretty short order. On the other hand, I can literally hang a sign out of my balcony that says "Obama Sucks" and neither the NSA, FBI, CIA, IRS, ATF, or any other government acronym is going to hassle me.

Tell that to the people having been killed by drones, being subjected to secret "rendition" and tho those who are kept jailed in Gitmo effectively without any rights, all based on unchecked and uncontestable information gathering, all effectively without due process. The end result is difficult to distinguish from the way authoritarian regimes operate, if at all.

Americans still have some modicum of protection under this regime, but foreign nationals are considered free game by the US agencies, without any rights whatsoever. Being a citizen of another country, this doesn't exactly improve my appreciation.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 13): With all due respect, I think that to compare the NSA, with all of its faults, to an organ dedicated to the absolute, unforgiving, and total iron-fist repression of a portion of Germany to the will of Communist apparatchiks of another country is specious and unreasonable.

Really? What does it matter to you when you are being harrassed or killed what the people doing that to you fancy themselves to be?

Quoting kric777 (Reply 16): Not sure about a "failing power", but maybe a power that has grown weary of being expected to provide (i.e. pay for) overwhelming military power, well in excess of what is required to actually defend itself (given oceans on either side and two large, friendly nations on its north and south borders). And maybe a power who has grown weary of constantly being the world's punching bag, the target of unrelenting criticism from the same nations who sell their souls to do business with the likes of China (who wouldn't know democracy if it came up to it and said 'Hi, China, I'm Democracy" ) and whose human rights record is absolutely abysmal....all of which is conveniently forgotten when it comes time to putting business deals together by the same people who hold out the USA as the scourge of humanity.

In short: "We mean well by definition, and any criticism of whatever we do is just ungrateful and irrelevant and can therefore be disregarded. There is no need for introspection or re-assessment of anything we do for any reason."

This attitude is the opposite of taking responsibility for your actions.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 16): PS -- I will NEVER deny that the US government has made more miscues than I care to recall, and there's a lot of nonsense going on here. But for the love of God....we're NOT the bad guys!

You certainly don't want to face the fact that in certain respects, you unfortunately are.

Just wanting to be "the good guys" doesn't make it so. Actually making the right choices, even and especially when that involves some inconvenience, potentially higher risks or having to work harder by yourself is what makes you "the good guys". It is a constant of american political culture to pat yourself on your own backs all the time, but at least many of your compatriots know that in actual reality that counts for nothing at all, compared to actually working hard to earn the right to do that, not just declaring that you don't need to because you country is called the USA and that alone already takes care of everything.

Being grown up means facing your weaknesses and your dark spots with open eyes as well, not just your aspirations and accomplishments. That doesn't just apply to the USA at all – but the discrepancy between self-aggrandization and actual reality is particularly large among at least many americans.

Quoting GDB (Reply 15): Remember too how all this has come out, Snowden is no traitor in the usual sense of the word, he left a good job, a hot girlfriend, all his friends and family knowing few of the likely outcomes for him were likely to be good. Why? He was outraged by seeing, on TV, the head of the NSA telling barefaced lies to lawmakers - a criminal act in itself.

He's a classic whistleblower – and his case shows again how dangerous that still is, when there aren't robust protections in place.

Based on the current news, german prosecutors have begun to pursue this new case. It is still not certain or even overly likely, but it has now become a practical possibility that Snowden could be named a crucial witness to a severe act against the security of Germany which could afford him witness protection in Germany, which would most likely prevent his extradition.

Of course that would be an affront to the US government, but unfortunately the US government is apparently the perpetrator in this case who has been caught out in public, and the german government doesn't have arbitrary control of such judicial proceedings.

There are quite a few voices on the political scene who are advocating such a step, plus widespread public support.

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 21): So much belief in what Snowden/Greenwalk release. How do you know it's true? This is what concerns me... they could potentially release something incredibly false and hugely damaging to the stability of the world. What if he releases a faux report that the US has placed strategic nuclear warheads secretly in China or Russia...or even worse... if the situation was reversed. Humanity fails if you believe everything you hear while not applying critical thought.

I agree with your caveats in principle, but Snowden's disclosures have yet to be proven wrong – and many of them have already been admitted or otherwise confirmed (at least in some cases by choosing not to dispute them). At least up to this point his claims appear to be truthful.

At least as far as we can know at this point, he has also apparently refrained from selling out justifiable US interests to other parties, even though that would have been much easier to do, and certainly highly profitable.

Some criticize that he is placing and spacing his diclosures with deliberate tactical intent, but given that he has effectively given up his life for this, I can't blame him for trying to maximize public awareness for as long as possible so that the information won't simply be ignored and forgotten. Continued public attention is effectively his life insurance as things stand.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 16): Not sure about a "failing power", but maybe a power that has grown weary of being expected to provide (i.e. pay for) overwhelming military power, well in excess of what is required to actually defend itself (given oceans on either side and two large, friendly nations on its north and south borders). And maybe a power who has grown weary of constantly being the world's punching bag, the target of unrelenting criticism from the same nations who sell their souls to do business with the likes of China (who wouldn't know democracy if it came up to it and said 'Hi, China, I'm Democracy" ) and whose human rights record is absolutely abysmal....all of which is conveniently forgotten when it comes time to putting business deals together by the same people who hold out the USA as the scourge of humanity.

I almost agree with you, but I disagree completely. Let me explain. There are a ton of Americans that share your point of view and would love to see the US focus on the US and our real interests. What you describe as happening isn't though... our government/politicians don't seem to be getting tired of being world police and we really aren't showing signs of stepping down I don't think. Kind of confusing, I hope that makes sense. In other words, I don't think our influence is waning because we want to not get involved so much (what many Americans want to see) but it's because we are so bogged down with problems we really can't get involved in many of these conflicts.

Kind of a moot point because honestly, I think the electorate will vote in politicians that will challenge the stubborn notion of intervening everywhere and I think we'll be less of the world's police because of it....

Quoting Klaus (Reply 22): You certainly don't want to face the fact that in certain respects, you unfortunately are.

Maybe *I* have poorly communicated my points, because you seem to be under the impression that I'm trying to defend everything the US government has done, completely bereft of introspection and self-criticism, and blindly plaster over the inconvenient truths of some very nefarious activities. On the contrary, I abhor a lot of it, but I also can't do much about it (particularly after the fact) and I do cling to the belief (perhaps foolishly, in your view) that, on balance, the US has done more good than harm around the world in my lifetime.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 23): our government/politicians don't seem to be getting tired of being world police and we really aren't showing signs of stepping down I don't think. Kind of confusing, I hope that makes sense.

No worries...it makes sense, and there's probably a lot of truth in what you say. I would be curious to see how well a presidential candidate would do who advocated an isolationist policy that supported a PURELY defensive US Military. I'd wager that while he (or she) might not win, they would post a pretty strong showing and would have a LOT of popular support.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 25): No worries...it makes sense, and there's probably a lot of truth in what you say. I would be curious to see how well a presidential candidate would do who advocated an isolationist policy that supported a PURELY defensive US Military. I'd wager that while he (or she) might not win, they would post a pretty strong showing and would have a LOT of popular support.

Ron Paul advocated that. He advocated many controversial things, but I've heard many people say "I like a lot of what Ron Paul says but I could never vote for him because I don't like his foreign policy." And to be fair, it did go pretty far from what we have no. I still contend we could pull back most of our overseas holdings, reduce the size of our military, and slash the budget in a smart way and still have the most capable, powerful military. We can work with the Europeans or NATO or whatever and still be able to amass a force that can defeat whoever.

I mean you'd be amazed at what our military does. I have a friend deploying to Honduras of all places... training the local military or doing drug interdiction or something. Is that really needed to keep us safe? We have a ton of people going to Djubuti to train their military... against Al Qaeda in Africa, I think. Would Al Qaeda be much of a problem if we weren't over there? If you believe Rick Santorum and company, you'd think they'd still come after us because they hate the colors red, white, and blue, and think bald eagles are stupid.

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 21): So much belief in what Snowden/Greenwalk release. How do you know it's true?

Because it's fairly easy to believe. Because Snowden has been demonized and harassed by US officials. Because journalists have been arrested over this. Because involved people are either confirming it, not denying it, or saying such convincing things as "the articles contain inaccurate and misleading information". Because countries' leaders are being outraged over the revelations. Be certain that if they weren't true, the reactions would be very different.

On the other hand putting nuclear missiles on Chinese or Russian territory makes zero sense, this isn't the 60's anymore, ballistic missiles are rockets that go into space and can strike anywhere, furthermore you can be certain that several US submarines are cruising along Chinese and Russian coasts, carrying dozens of missiles.

You have a problem with eavesdropping? Increase your security!

Oh, that's illegal in some countries. Some western countries restrict the use of encryption and other methods of making data inaccessible. If the Amis eavesdrop, which is normal human behavior, blame your own government for denying you the right to do something about it.

Let us be absolutely honest. There is not a single government in the "free world" that guarantees anonymity or safe browsing. There is not a single government that does not eavesdrop on others.

Merkel might complain about her phone being listened to but that is her own fault. She can not say that it is acceptable to listen to her opponents while decrying the same happening to her. She is the one who accepts interception. As the proponents of interception argue, if you have nothing to hide...

Quoting kric777 (Reply 24): Maybe *I* have poorly communicated my points, because you seem to be under the impression that I'm trying to defend everything the US government has done, completely bereft of introspection and self-criticism, and blindly plaster over the inconvenient truths of some very nefarious activities.

That was indeed my impression from your post.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 24): On the contrary, I abhor a lot of it, but I also can't do much about it (particularly after the fact) and I do cling to the belief (perhaps foolishly, in your view) that, on balance, the US has done more good than harm around the world in my lifetime.

Any kind of "balance" is just a completely irrelevant concept here, not just because where that "balance" would actually be would be highly debatable. The idea of a "balance" implies that the inexcusable could still be excused somehow and glossed over, and that is not how it works.

When I screw up towards other people, I have to deal with that fact and that doesn't change even when I've done some wonderful things elsewhere. Responsibility simply doesn't just evaporate or balance out.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 22): Based on the current news, german prosecutors have begun to pursue this new case. It is still not certain or even overly likely, but it has now become a practical possibility that Snowden could be named a crucial witness to a severe act against the security of Germany which could afford him witness protection in Germany, which would most likely prevent his extradition.

That would be a way of getting back at the US for the bugging, who would find getting a sympathetic hearing against Germany from other nations - because they've pissed too many off over this.

However, to be fair this whole affair has caused a real stir in the US, which is leading towards a greater regulation of the NSA, from many in both parties - can we think of anything else in this Government shutdown era that has done the same?
The President has to act and he's indicating that he will, this may have started before his time but it carried on after 2009 - in Merkel's case until this year - hence his discomfort.
He might not have been fully aware at the extent of it, more likely he was, at least partly so, however Harry Truman's maxim is as true today as it was back in his time.

So at least the US government, it's Congress, is taking this seriously.
You cannot say the same about the UK, if the NSA was involved, GCHQ was too, as evidenced by Snowden's revelations.
Here Cameron has been pathetic, seemingly out of his depth (not for the first time), choosing instead to shoot the messenger. Though the Opposition, in Parliament, haven't exactly been biting his balls on this either.

So it's all about attacking the newspaper which published (after redacting anything that posed a genuine security risk, as they also did with the more prickly and indifferent to the consequences Assange).

But what's this? A Tory MP who makes a lot of noise about the Guardian 'risking our security', on his own website he posted a pic of himself at Parliament receiving invited visitors from the highly sensitive RAF/NSA facility at Menwith Hill. This most secret place being in his constituency.
Not only were the Menwith visitors faces shown but he even gave their names!
Now that might not have been a real problem in itself, still The Guardian gleefully reproduced the pic though they obscured the Menwith Hill staff faces. Point made.

It recalls a classic line from the WW2 set comedy series Dad's Army about the British Home Guard;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpMEl7wAQ6k

So we must give the US establishment some credit, it might be vital to protect and repair damage to US diplomatic influence, still the direction of travel is not one of denial or crudely dismissive of the anger of allies.

[Edited 2013-10-27 12:00:33]

[Edited 2013-10-27 12:01:01]

[Edited 2013-10-27 12:01:47]

Quoting kric777 (Reply 8): So by that rationale, the NSA is a body tasked with enforcing the will of a non-democratic, Communist dictatorial regime that slavishly marched in lock-step with an even MORE dictatorial regime

Quoting kric777 (Reply 16): Not sure about a "failing power", but maybe a power that has grown weary of being expected to provide (i.e. pay for) overwhelming military power, well in excess of what is required to actually defend itself (given oceans on either side and two large, friendly nations on its north and south borders).

I´m sorry that you feel that the US is "expected" to provide anything. The US does it because it has interests in those parts. They want to control the Pacific? Have at it, but then you are going to have to take care of all the geostrategic issues that go on in there. They want to have a say on the Middle East? Have at it, but just look at that mess. The US has no friends or enemies. It has interests (and I didn´t say that) so nobody expects them to provide anything. The US interests make them have to.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26): I mean you'd be amazed at what our military does. I have a friend deploying to Honduras of all places... training the local military or doing drug interdiction or something. Is that really needed to keep us safe?

Because Central America and the Caribbean are becoming the main points of transit for illegal drugs that end up in your streets. When the US finally does something to quell its incredible appetite for narcotics, your friend definitely wouldn´t need to be in Honduras.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26): We can work with the Europeans or NATO or whatever and still be able to amass a force that can defeat whoever.

If stuff like what Snowden is revealing keeps happening, that cooperation won´t be so readily available.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26): We have a ton of people going to Djubuti to train their military... against Al Qaeda in Africa, I think. Would Al Qaeda be much of a problem if we weren't over there?

Over where exactly? Africa? Of course. Al Qaeda has as its goal to destroy the US right? You have to go at them wherever they are. They´ve already seriously damaged two embassies there and killed a lot of people in the process.

Now about Mexico, this is where I find the NSA´s actions pretty stupid. Why spy on us when you can get the same info. from a short phone call? Even collect, I´m sure. It´s not like Mexico is going to deny info. to the US. This shows how out of control and paranoid some agencies in the US have become.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 31):

I'm not sure what you're trying to say... I'm not endorsing any of our foreign policy, just explaining what I see

Quoting Klaus (Reply 29): Any kind of "balance" is just a completely irrelevant concept here,

It is not irrelevant at all. At the end of the day, we (people, nations, etc.) will all be judged by the balance sheet we leave behind...of the good we did vs. the wrong we did. While I abhor a lot of what has been done by the US government, I feel that, on balance, the US has done more good than wrong in the world, It DOES NOT excuse the wrong that was done...but those wrongs also don't nullify the good that has been done. If you feel they do, fine....that's your opinion, and that seems to be the argument you're making. You're entitled to that opinion...but my opinion is different.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 29): When I screw up towards other people, I have to deal with that fact and that doesn't change even when I've done some wonderful things elsewhere. Responsibility simply doesn't just evaporate or balance out.

When you (or I) screw up toward other people, yes, we owe a debt of rectification toward those individuals that we have wronged. But to assert that it completely nullifies any other good deeds we may perform doesn't make sense to me.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 31): The US has no friends or enemies. It has interests

Can't necessarily disagree with you, there...but I also think it holds true for EVERY country, not just the USA.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 31): They want to control the Pacific? Have at it, but then you are going to have to take care of all the geostrategic issues that go on in there. They want to have a say on the Middle East? Have at it, but just look at that mess.

A fair point, but what if the USA didn't step up? With regard to the Pacific, history tells us that most of the Asian nations would shit a brick if either China or Japan assumed a leadership role. Who else can do it? I don't think the US wants to 'control' the Pacific as much as it feels like it needs to to prevent wars from breaking out every 5 years.

As far as the Middle East goes...First of all, let's escort the 800lb gorilla out of the room right now: Notwithstanding the admirable, devastating effectiveness of the IDF and the Mossad....Israel (i.e. the most modern, liberal democratic country in the region by a HUGE margin) would not currently exist if it weren't for the USA. The Soviets were all too happy to help Egypt and Syria try to wipe them off the map in the late 60's / early 70's.

As far as the rest of it goes, I'd just as soon the US pulled all of its troops/planes/ships out that craphole and let them fight it out amongst themselves, as long as Israel is protected, as the last bastion of sanity in that region.

.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 34): I don't think the US wants to 'control' the Pacific as much as it feels like it needs to to prevent wars from breaking out every 5 years.

And why is that exactly? What interest does the US have in that? I mean, according to the way you are explaining things.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 34): As far as the rest of it goes, I'd just as soon the US pulled all of its troops/planes/ships out that craphole and let them fight it out amongst themselves, as long as Israel is protected, as the last bastion of sanity in that region.

But that´s it, isn´t it? The US can´t do all of that you are saying without leaving Israel unprotected. So, there´s another interest right there.

So no. The world doesn´t "expect" anything. Maybe Israel does, but certainly the US is not playing "police" because they are for freedom an justice for all. They have interests.

Maybe those interests need to be reevaluated, I´ll admit that.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 35): So no. The world doesn´t "expect" anything. Maybe Israel does, but certainly the US is not playing "police" because they are for freedom an justice for all. They have interests. Maybe those interests need to be reevaluated, I´ll admit that.

Agreed. I'm not arguing that there is a ton of altruism in US foreign policy. We do what have to do. But frequently, those interests coincide with the best interests of another country (e.g. Israel)

AR385: Your avatar says you're from Mexico. I'm all for the US and Mexican armed forces working together for our mutual defense. We're neighbors. Hell, if it were up to me, I would argue, STRONGLY, for Mexico's membership in NATO, if the Mexican government ever pursued it....maybe they have, I don't know, but any US president that would oppose it is a fool.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 36): We do what have to do.

You really think so? I thought a few posts ago you said we did too much around the globe

Quoting kric777 (Reply 16): Here's a proposal: The 'World's Policeman" retires, as so many people say they want, and the US draws down its military presence to simply a homeland defensive force...a carrier battle group on each coast, sufficient subs and ships to patrol the oceans. Planes, missiles, and troops sufficient to patrol the borders, defend the homeland, and deter any possible attack. Then let the rest of the world fend for itself. Good luck!

If you tried that, your US Military/Industrial businesses would be bankrupt within a year. I you think the Wall Street crash of 2008 was bad, if your Military supply companies have their taxpayer funded market suddenly dry up, the whole US economy will go glub.... right down the toilet.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 16): the target of unrelenting criticism from the same nations who sell their souls to do business with the likes of China (who wouldn't know democracy if it came up to it and said 'Hi, China, I'm Democracy" ) and whose human rights record is absolutely abysmal....all of which is conveniently forgotten when it comes time to putting business deals together by the same people who hold out the USA as the scourge of humanity.

You're kidding, right? Other than the entire EU taken as a sole trading block, the USA is China's largest trading partner in the world. Seems the USA has absolutely no issues with buying as much Chinese production as it can. Just ask Walmart, to name one company. I'd bet that half of all products in most stores is made in China. So your statement about Democracy and human rights is nonsense the way you present it.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 16): But for the love of God....we're NOT the bad guys!

Quoting Klaus (Reply 22): Tell that to the people having been killed by drones, being subjected to secret "rendition" and tho those who are kept jailed in Gitmo effectively without any rights, all based on unchecked and uncontestable information gathering, all effectively without due process. The end result is difficult to distinguish from the way authoritarian regimes operate, if at all.

Um, yes, in a great many ways the USA is the world's bad guy. You just dress it up and hide the other stuff under the rug until someone like Snowdon or Wikileaks comes along and shows your true colors.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 36): AR385: Your avatar says you're from Mexico. I'm all for the US and Mexican armed forces working together for our mutual defense. We're neighbors. Hell, if it were up to me, I would argue, STRONGLY, for Mexico's membership in NATO, if the Mexican government ever pursued it....maybe they have, I don't know, but any US president that would oppose it is a fool.

I was born in Mexico, yes, and I currently reside here. Yes, our armed forces could benefit a lot from working together. I believe they do in issues of narcotics and the benefits are clear. If they did in more areas things could get a lot better.

Mexico cannot pursue joining NATO. Our Constitution expressly forbids our armed forces from intervening in any armed conflict that does not involve Mexico, an even then, a declaration of war needs to be in effect. In case of humanitarian missions, they may leave the country only under special dispensation from the Senate.

Spains second largest newspaper El Pais, is Reporting today that the NSA has survailanced a massive 60 million phonecalls in only 2 months. From december last year, to january this year. 3 million phonecals in one day alone.

Story from Norwegian newspaper Dagbladet:

http://www.dagbladet.no/2013/10/28/nyheter/nsa/overvaking/30010584/

Quoting Aesma (Reply 4): I'm not surprised that the US populace is not bothered by its government spying on foreign citizens, but I don't understand how they can't see and react to the fact that they're being spied on too. The NSA is the new STASI.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 6): Too many have been brainwashed by Fox and/or are stupid to realise it.

Uh, excuse me - it's those on the right who are the most up in arms about it.

But it is true that the media has kept remarkably quiet about it. Some of them, because they don't want to hurt Obama, and others, well, I suspect some threats may have been involved.

Quoting cmf (Reply 3): People should listen to the Lavabit/Ladar Levison story, http://twit.tv/show/triangulation/125 . It is pretty scary how the government required him to give up the ssl keys. On the other hand you have to admire how he handled it.

Straight out of Orwell's 1984. He's not even allowed to discuss relevant information even with his own lawyer. His right to a defense has been hampered, and he is under a gag order. The NSA is an organization that can evidently cause the jailing any owner and/or manager of a US email service who refuses to turn over SSL encryption keys of it users... all of its users. The rights to privacy do not exist in the public communications sector because of a court case back in the 70s basically cancelling 4th Amendment rights in that regard, hence Sections 201 and 202 of the Patriot Act. That is the short of it. The controversy now is whether the metadata collection of electronic communications by the NSA or any government agency is constitutional. And considering the broader and broader interpretation of the Constitution over the past century, I have few doubts that it will be upheld.

So thanks, Progressives. All your whining about the Constitution not having to be followed litterally, that is is a "living document" subject to shifting interpretations for the past 100 years... If the court upholds the NSA program, we will have you to thank for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit

Quoting tu204 (Reply 12): The U.S. isn't close to what it used to be. Right now, I would say that the late USSR (During Perestroika and Glastnost - 1986+) had more freedoms than what you have right now. I am not exaggerating either. Honestly serious.

Well, you seem to be pretty young to remember the period. I traveled to the Soviet Union a lot in those pre-breakup days (and afterwards) and there was plenty of listening going on. You could detect the phone taps on your hotel phone (we had a device for that), and eventually we could often recognize the actual sounds of the tap on the phone. In one Intourist hotel I stayed in, there was an entire floor dedicated to listening posts where KGB men would listen on hotel guest conversations. There was a very good reason why it was often very difficult to get a phone connection to the West back then - not enough listeners. The KGB's main tool was ancient technology. The Soviet phone system was basically 50's and 60s technology at best, and easy to tap. There was no internet. At the time, funny enough, faxes were considered the most secure means of communications (assuming you weren't a government employee with access to encryption hardware), because even if you record the sounds made in a fax "conversation", it is extremely difficult to feed those sounds into your own fax machine and get it to spit out a copy.

And then the breakup happened and the KGB basically ceased to exist overnight, in terms of all the listening. I even got a tour of that listening station at the hotel.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 40): Spains second largest newspaper El Pais, is Reporting today that the NSA has survailanced a massive 60 million phonecalls in only 2 months. From december last year, to january this year. 3 million phonecals in one day alone.

I think your numbers are off by several zeros. NSA probably processes several billion calls a day, at least at a metadata level. And looking at the facilities they are building in Utah and Ft Meade, that is far, far, FAR more hardware than they need to simple collect call data records for every call in the world. No, their intention is to capture the voice and data content as well.

Back to the issue.

A major German paper today published that Obama personally told Merkel that he had not authorized any taps on her phone, and had he heard of it he would have ordered it stopped. And now it turns out Obama was fully briefed on the tap back in 2010, and he ordered it continued.

Can't believe he lied to her face like that...

[Edited 2013-10-27 20:32:09]

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41): But it is true that the media has kept remarkably quiet about it. Some of them, because they don't want to hurt Obama, and others, well, I suspect some threats may have been involved.

I'm not a fan of the "liberal media covering for President Obama" line of thinking, but it is pretty strange we aren't hearing more about it.

I'm thinking it's Fox just being Fox and trying to make the President look bad and the rest of the media is acting like they normally would hearing about the NSA spying, but the question is, why would this be their normal reaction?

I'm also wondering why the administration is silent on this. Hoping it will subside eventually? I'm thinking that after making campaign promises, the administration is seeing some crazy things the NSA has stopped... but I wish they'd at least tell us why they are doing it. Not saying I'd endorse it, but I'd at least be less confused on it all

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41): Straight out of Orwell's 1984.

It is pretty scary. To the point of being comical at times. They wanted him to get a security clearance so he could provide the meta data he already had access to.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 41): So thanks, Progressives. All your whining about the Constitution not having to be followed litterally, that is is a "living document" subject to shifting interpretations for the past 100 years... If the court upholds the NSA program, we will have you to thank for it.

Literal following is no better than abusive changes. It is always difficult to keep the balance but tilting in one direction will make you fall just as much as tilting in the other.

Quoting kric777 (Reply 14):

I really don't think you should be laughing. Keep in mind the timeframe I posted. Late Soviet Union. We're not talking Stalin here. We're talking Gorbachev. And yes, we did have more freedoms then, than you have now.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42): I'm not a fan of the "liberal media covering for President Obama" line of thinking, but it is pretty strange we aren't hearing more about it. I'm thinking it's Fox just being Fox and trying to make the President look bad and the rest of the media is acting like they normally would hearing about the NSA spying, but the question is, why would this be their normal reaction? I'm also wondering why the administration is silent on this. Hoping it will subside eventually? I'm thinking that after making campaign promises, the administration is seeing some crazy things the NSA has stopped... but I wish they'd at least tell us why they are doing it. Not saying I'd endorse it, but I'd at least be less confused on it all

On the media issue;

1. So far, this mainly involves the relationship with other nations, if it isn't a war or US hostages, is the US media ever that interested in foreign affairs?
2. One of the papers world wide publishing the redacted data is the New York Times, which I understand is usually lumped with this phantom 'Liberal Media'. Well they've been liberal in publishing this stuff much to the annoyance of the Administration.
3. I've seen plenty of hostile comment, anger, at the Administration from Liberal inclined media.
4. As I mentioned before, the US government and Congress are seen as being serious about tackling this whole subject, unlike the UK.
5. Speaking of which, here the conservative media, that is most newspapers, have not said too much about this other than to attack the messengers, just like the Prime Minister, The most Liberal UK mainstream paper has been at the forefront, of breaking this story and doing all the publishing.

As to the real issue, the Administration's response, they are likely pretty confused too, playing catch up as each day usually brings more revelations, which then have to be apologised for, (well this time, after all those false claims from 2009 about Obama 'apologising for America', it's finally come true though not in the way they expected.
I guess those who have been yelling about this for four years, those that are not completely bonkers, know that with this, he has no choice. Any US President in the same position would have to.

This is I think why there has been such rare unity on this across the political divide, no one in power or seeking it, wants their intel gathering to be out of control, beyond oversight - and to ensure the latter - lying to lawmakers. Remember that is what set Snowden off.
When you think about it, it's no different from the armed forces acting beyond their brief, imagine the head of the Joint Chiefs being caught lying to Congress.

The question then is, who authorised bugging allied leaders phones - we know that with Germany it started in 2002 - post 2009 what was the briefing given to the new Administration, did they also authorise this bugging to continue?
Did either administration know the full extent of what they had authorised entailed? I mention this referring back to the head of the NSA and his less than honest answers to lawmakers, was this a one off or had they got into the habit of being less than honest further up the political chain too, including both Presidents in this timeframe?

If the above sounds unlikely, given the 50th anniversary of JFK's death coming up, reminds us that he was lied to by the CIA when they pitched the Bay Of Pigs operation to him.
In that they made claims of certainty about stuff like the inevitable uprising against Castro by the Cubans, which they had no evidence of at all and knew to be a hope of theirs and nothing more.
He never fully trusted them again.

Quoting GDB (Reply 45): As to the real issue, the Administration's response, they are likely pretty confused too,

I believe that for the first time in many years, they really don´t know what to say or do.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 46): I believe that for the first time in many years, they really don´t know what to say or do.

'Sorry' is cropping up a lot!
At least to some allied leaders.

Here, Cameron is threatening darkly about going after the messengers still, even invoking 'D' Notices on papers and journalists. A 'D' Notice is a temporary gagging order that is only supposed to be used when there is a clear danger to life and/or a major threat to security.
Not to cover up a government's discomfort.
What a prick he is,
So America, however it might seem, your government's response to all this is putting ours to shame.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24710826

(You almost wish the NSA had bugged Cameron, that would get him to calm down and take stock).

[Edited 2013-10-28 14:00:48]

[Edited 2013-10-28 14:01:27]

Quoting AR385 (Reply 46): Quoting GDB (Reply 45): As to the real issue, the Administration's response, they are likely pretty confused too, I believe that for the first time in many years, they really don´t know what to say or do.

One thing you have in many countrie´s administrations is that the career civil servants (and often the career military) don´t care much about their elected superiors. They interpret laws ands rules their own way, no matter who sits in the White House, the Kanzleramt, 10 Downing Street or the Elysee Palace. They decide what information will be passed to the government.

Here the whole thing is quite big. The "Spiegel" published a long article how the top floor of the US embassy in Berlin (within sight of the Reichstag and Merkel´s office) was used to spy on the German government and parliament.
One result of this affair might be that us Europeans decide that the US is not reliable anymore and that we´ll have to take matters in our own hands, e.g. through a combined European military force, instead of relying in NATO.

Jan

I find it interesting the NSA has been spying for years and years (since it was formed under GWB) but it is only NOW under a Democratic president, these allegations come out. Funny how that is working.