Thank A Taxpayer For That Happy Meal.

BMI727 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:52 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 99):
They have more taken care of and their disposable income actually is disposable.

You misunderstand. Not their disposable income, it's my disposable income that I care about, of which I have not nearly enough.

Quoting cmf (Reply 100):
Then provide arguments against it instead of repeating whiny 20 for a dussin generic soundbites.

He doesn't make a case. He just thinks that it's bad that others have nicer toys than he does and that the wealthy should pay him for the privilege of sharing a planet with him.

DfwRevolution · Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:56 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 28):
The problem to be solved is obvious: companies are paying their employees so little that they qualify for public assistance, at the same time they are paying their CEO $15,000,000 per year.

What they pay IS my business when I end up supporting their employees via MY taxes at the same time they are SO profitable they can pay $15M to their CEO.

You support their employees because voting blocks believe we have an obligation to support their standard of living since they cannot provide it themselves.

That doesn't mean minimum wage is unfair compensation for a role that requires minimal skills, minimal critical thinking, and minimal manual labor. Labor is worth the product or service it delivers, and fast food is not that valuable.

It also doesn't mean that $15 million is unfair compensation for the chief leader of an organization with 1.8 million employees, 34,000 storefronts, operations in 119 countries, growing revenues of $27 billion, and investment returns 4x the S&P 500 over the last ten years.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 59):
I believe in a living, or livable wage.

You believe in forcing companies to price their products more than they are worth to the vast majority of consumers. The result will inevitably be less consumption.

Why don't you try operating a food service business with "living wages" and tell us how it works for you?

LittleFokker · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:02 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 101):
He just thinks that it's bad that others have nicer toys than he does and that the wealthy should pay him for the privilege of sharing a planet with him.

Your nice toys won't be so nice if you don't contribute to maintaining an organized society around you.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 101):
it's my disposable income that I care about, of which I have not nearly enough.

How much disposable income do you need? Or do you see yourself as a C Montgomerie Burns or Scrooge McDuck type, hoarding as much money as you can, if for no other reason, than to prevent anyone else from having it?

BTW, did you ever find a job that met your impossibly high standards, or are you still working in that "menial" retail job?

DeltaMD90 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:07 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 101):
You misunderstand. Not their disposable income, it's my disposable income that I care about, of which I have not nearly enough.

I realize that. You just better hope a majority of the country feels the same way

BMI727 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:09 am

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 103):
Your nice toys won't be so nice if you don't contribute to maintaining an organized society around you.

You seem to have stumbled on the difference between a conservative and an anarchist.

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 103):
How much disposable income do you need?

A hell of a lot more than I do now. It's an incredibly high bar, but I'd surmise eight figures.

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 103):
Or do you see yourself as a C Montgomerie Burns or Scrooge McDuck type, hoarding as much money as you can, if for no other reason, than to prevent anyone else from having it?

Wealth doesn't work that way.

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 103):
BTW, did you ever find a job that met your impossibly high standards,

I have a much better job now, good enough that I can pay the income tax of 1.6 people. Happy with my income, no, but I could make multiples of what I do now and not be happy with my income. But, putting that aside, being in the top half of the country income-wise at the age of 23 is not that bad.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 104):
You just better hope a majority of the country feels the same way

The problem with tyranny of the majority is that it allows people to decide that they are entitled to some of your money.

DfwRevolution · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:11 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
However, there are college graduates who have a degree in a legitimate field like computer programming or engineering, who can not survive because they can not find jobs in their field of study AND they have to pay back massive student loans.

I have one of those degrees. The salary for entry-level positions in computer science and engineering will instantly put a twenty-something well above the median income for the entire country. You have to have seriously odd circumstances to not comfortably service student loan debt with those degrees.

The young engineers I know who had/have trouble with their student loans came down to one thing: priorities. It's way more fun to get an F150 with your signing bonus than paydown a full semester's worth of debt.

PPVRA · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:12 am

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 73):
I actually think, as a rule, that CEOs do work harder than the average Joe. And between that and the level of responsibility where the health of the company, value to shareholders, and continued employment of its labor are concerned, they do earn a lot.

But 100 times more than average?! No way! I think you're right. If it takes 100 times average to get someone out of bed to do a job, time to find a new leader.

Labor prices have absolutely nothing to do with how much people work. Rather, it's set by the demand for that level of skill and the supply of that level of skill.

There are few highly skilled CEOs and they are in high demand. That results in very large salaries.

The average factory worker skill level is in large supply. Thanks to numerous regulations which drive the cost of manufacturing in the U.S. up, there is reduced demand for that type of skill level. This pushes wages down.

And yes, it's absolutely desirable to have such a system. You want the highly skilled CEO (or any other type of worker, for that matter) to go to the company that values that skill the most.

PPVRA · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:17 am

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 93):
This is the most critical point. Conservatives cannot simultaneously complain about the number of people on welfare and be against raising the minimum wage - the two go hand in hand.

Minimum wage kills jobs, which increases the number of people on welfare.

Also, it's not just the minimum wage that kills jobs - it's a large number of regulations that *artificially* increase the cost of production and consumption. Those things make people poorer all around.

DeltaMD90 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:19 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 102):
You believe in forcing companies to price their products more than they are worth to the vast majority of consumers. The result will inevitably be less consumption.

Other countries seem to do just fine. Both are working models, it just depends which model the voters decide

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 105):
The problem with tyranny of the majority is that it allows people to decide that they are entitled to some of your money.

You belong to society, you benefit from society, you pay into society

PPVRA · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:25 am

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 103):
Or do you see yourself as a C Montgomerie Burns or Scrooge McDuck type, hoarding as much money as you can, if for no other reason, than to prevent anyone else from having it?

A scenario that is literally impossible.

Save as much money as you can. Spend none of it, and society will still benefit.

Yes, society can still benefit from a Scrooge McDuck. Money sitting in a bank account doesn't actually sit there. That money is being used by millions of people to build themselves businesses that will hopefully afford them a better life. And it's not just the business owners whose lives are improved, because they hire employees who choose to work in this new company because they were offered a better deal than their last employer. Everybody wins.

[Edited 2013-10-28 18:29:53]

DfwRevolution · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:26 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 109):
Other countries seem to do just fine. Both are working models, it just depends which model the voters decide

Which other countries? The European ones? They are virtually stuck in a no-growth mode and unemployment is as high as 25% in some countries, particularly for young people. The U.S. is vastly outperforming the Eurozone post-recession.

BMI727 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:28 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 106):
The salary for entry-level positions in computer science and engineering will instantly put a twenty-something well above the median income for the entire country. You have to have seriously odd circumstances to not comfortably service student loan debt with those degrees.

The young engineers I know who had/have trouble with their student loans came down to one thing: priorities. It's way more fun to get an F150 with your signing bonus than paydown a full semester's worth of debt.

Precisely. I could have a nicer car parked in front of a nicer apartment as we speak, but if I did that I couldn't pay off my loans and max out my 401(k) each month. I haven't even bothered to buy myself an Xbox. I don't have much sympathy for those who would rather buy a new sound system for their car and then cry poor.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 109):
You belong to society, you benefit from society, you pay into society

No, I don't belong to society. I pay taxes for a government to provide services: like an army, schools, and roads. I don't want to pay taxes for services that I don't use and don't benefit me. I don't work for society, the government is there to work for me. Taxes are just like the cable bill or the cell phone bill.

DfwRevolution · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:31 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 107):
Labor prices have absolutely nothing to do with how much people work. Rather, it's set by the demand for that level of skill and the supply of that level of skill.

To prove this point, look what McDonalds workers are making in North Dakota. There is such a shortage of labor due to the Bakken shale activity that traditional minimum wage jobs are paying $15-20 per hour.

WarRI1 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:31 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 102):
You believe in forcing companies to price their products more than they are worth to the vast majority of consumers. The result will inevitably be less consumption.

Of course I do, all it takes is a fair wage law. One has to force change, the law is the easiest way to do that.
Are you that naïve to think that products are fairly priced? I'll just bet you do not when you are purchasing them. I can hear the whining, just like everybody else.

Why don't you try operating a food service business with "living wages" and tell us how it works for you?

It works in Australia, have you not been reading the replies from our friends there? It seems that McDonalds has been doing alright in Australia, else why would they open there? Why would someone buy the franchise, to lose money? Of course they do not intend to lose anything. They intend to pay the wages prescribed by law there and make a ton of money. They are forced, just as I am advocating here. Greed only knows one thing, laws to force them, or force to force them to pay fairly.

DeltaMD90 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:40 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 111):
Which other countries? The European ones? They are virtually stuck in a no-growth mode and unemployment is as high as 25% in some countries, particularly for young people. The U.S. is vastly outperforming the Eurozone post-recession.

Is that due to minimum wage laws or from a world wide recession?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 112):
No, I don't belong to society. I pay taxes for a government to provide services: like an army, schools, and roads. I don't want to pay taxes for services that I don't use and don't benefit me. I don't work for society, the government is there to work for me. Taxes are just like the cable bill or the cell phone bill.

Whaa there are plenty of taxes I don't want to pay for. It's called being an adult

DfwRevolution · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:40 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 102):
You believe in forcing

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 114):
They are forced

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 114):
force them

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 114):
force to force them

So your answer to my point is an emphatic "yes," you do believe in an economy where transactions are based on force and not mutual agreement. That is called coercion, not trade. Your ideas are so good, they only require stripping people of their economic freedom to work.

WarRI1 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:44 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 113):
To prove this point, look what McDonalds workers are making in North Dakota. There is such a shortage of labor due to the Bakken shale activity that traditional minimum wage jobs are paying $15-20 per hour.

Baloney again. All that proves is when the fat cats are desperate for labor, and there is money to be made, no matter the cost of labor, they will violate their own principles to make that money, such as paying average wages for labor. 15 to 20 dollars, big deal, that is barely enough to survive when there is a boom, all the other prices skyrocket also. The hotel, restaurants, bars, food, cigarettes etc. all go up in price. You are not going to come back home after the boom with a buck in your pocket. All eaten up by (fairly) priced products. Sure!!!!

DfwRevolution · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:47 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 115):
Is that due to minimum wage laws or from a world wide recession?

The world isn't in a recession. Global GDP growth was 2.2% last year. The U.S. GDP is 3% higher than pre-recession. The Eurozone GDP is -2% lower than pre-recession.

I think the Eurozone stagnation can be attributed to stiff business regulations, bad energy policy, bad fiscal policy, and yes, high cost and inflexible labor.

WarRI1 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:47 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 116):
Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 102):You believe in forcing Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 114):They are forcedQuoting WarRI1 (Reply 114):force themQuoting WarRI1 (Reply 114):force to force them

Pleas read, I thought I made myself clear. Page down.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 114):
Of course I do, all it takes is a fair wage law. One has to force change, the law is the easiest way to do that.
Are you that naïve to think that products are fairly priced? I'll just bet you do not when you are purchasing them. I can hear the whining, just like everybody else.

DfwRevolution · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:51 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 119):
Pleas read, I thought I made myself clear. Page down.

Yes, we are in complete understanding. You believe in forcing people into economic transactions that one party would not willingly agree to. When sex is involved, that's called rape. You believe in removing the "free" component from economic freedom.

DeltaMD90 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:54 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 118):

Fair enough, I will look into it more

WarRI1 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:57 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 118):
I think the Eurozone stagnation can be attributed to stiff business regulations, bad energy policy, bad fiscal policy, and yes, high cost and inflexible labor.

Ask the German's, ask the Norwegians, ask most of Europe, see how unhappy they are. Ask them if they think we have a workers Utopia. Are they beating down our doors now to get in? It seems to me that has changed, now we get the desperate unwashed, uneducated masses, yearning to be free. They think 5 bucks an hour is Utopia.

WarRI1 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:59 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 120):
When sex is involved, that's called rape

Whoa, we the workers are getting screwed, and it is the wealthy who are committing the rape. I do not find it enjoyable either. I have had better sex, much better.

PPVRA · Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:35 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 123):
Whoa, we the workers are getting screwed, and it is the wealthy who are committing the rape. I do not find it enjoyable either. I have had better sex, much better.

You're getting screwed by your own ideology. Much like the workers under communism got screwed in the end.

seb146 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:56 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 112):
I don't work for society, the government is there to work for me.

And me. And MD90. And Michelle Bachmann. And Harry Ried. And.... That is why we pay taxes. For better or worse. We pay taxes so we don't have to have people dying in the street from starvation and so we don't have to have bridges crumble. Don't like it? Don't pay taxes!

I have noticed something: Those who are blindly following right-wing media and have been for years have one thing in common: They don't understand the million shades of grey. They believe there are only two absolutes: Their way and the evil "liberal" way. They do not see the millions of opinions in between. I have changed my way of thinking and understanding. Right wing followers, sadly, are told they are to never ever do this and I don't know why. We were such a better nation when we all recognized the million shades of grey.

WarRI1 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:06 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 124):
You're getting screwed by your own ideology. Much like the workers under communism got screwed in the end.

Who me, or my country? If you are talking to me about getting screwed. I am sorry, I am comfortably retired 16 years Jan 2014. I had a successful career, my wife also. We were well paid, have defined pension plans, had 401 k's, matching funds from the company. We are on SS, Medicare, a prescription plan from my employer. You are barking up the wrong tree, nobody is screwing me. I am an advocate for those who follow me. I am an advocate for the workers who did not have it as good as me. I am an advocate for the poor, the sick, and the weak. I am someone who has been very fortunate in life, and I try to pass it on to my children, grandchildren, my friends, and family. I advocate for the people who are being screwed over by the advocates of greed and selfishness. That is my Ideology. May I ask what yours is ? I will understand if you do not answer. I am proud of my Ideology. I screw over nobody, but I will not let anyone screw me over either.

[Edited 2013-10-28 20:11:34]

WarRI1 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:09 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 125):
And me. And MD90. And Michelle Bachmann. And Harry Ried. And.... That is why we pay taxes. For better or worse. We pay taxes so we don't have to have people dying in the street from starvation and so we don't have to have bridges crumble. Don't like it? Don't pay taxes!

I have noticed something: Those who are blindly following right-wing media and have been for years have one thing in common: They don't understand the million shades of grey. They believe there are only two absolutes: Their way and the evil "liberal" way. They do not see the millions of opinions in between. I have changed my way of thinking and understanding. Right wing followers, sadly, are told they are to never ever do this and I don't know why. We were such a better nation when we all recognized the million shades of grey.

I must say, I understand your frustration, and I cannot agree with you more about the blind leading the blind. Right Wing media is so out there, it is amazing how this distorted news is swallowed by so many, so blindly.

jetblueguy22 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:50 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
However, there are college graduates who have a degree in a legitimate field like computer programming or engineering, who can not survive because they can not find jobs in their field of study AND they have to pay back massive student loans.

That's unfortunate but there are safeguards to make sure you don't end up in that situation. Like getting a good minor or finding a field you have interest in that is in demand.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
Then you are purposely not seeing what the rest of us are seeing. It is pointed out all the time, not only here but all over the media and web.

I'm not purposely avoiding anything. I just think we have a difference in idea.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
The money we put into banks and 401Ks and at the gas pump. If they had taken their own money they off shored and used it to gamble on their own games, that is fine. But, using MY money to play THEIR game is not worth it. And, to top it all off, after they lost billions of OUR money, they had the nerve to ask US to pay THEM back! They took our money and want more of our money!

So the money you put in the hands of the banks? You get interest every month in your bank account because they are essentially borrowing your money. If you don't like that and think they are taking advantage of you I suggest you do every transaction in cash.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
Again, you are blind when it comes to these things.

And you are all knowing?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
Name calling has been going on for a long, long time. It was the right who made "liberal" and "Democrat" four letter words. It was the right who decided anyone who disagreed with them should be looked down upon; that the only "true" Americans are the right wing Americans.

Name calling and it is from the right? Do we really have to go further back in the thread where you called the right "nutjobs" or are we just ignoring that? Because it appears to me you are doing the same thing that you accuse the other side of doing.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 95):
What about people who have skills and degrees but are forced to take low wage jobs because their job is either not available or they were fired so their job could be moved overseas? What about them? I get not paying lazy people as much.

Then they go back to school and gain new skills. It isn't a new thing. My mother did so 5 years ago while still working full time and raising two kids.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 113):
To prove this point, look what McDonalds workers are making in North Dakota. There is such a shortage of labor due to the Bakken shale activity that traditional minimum wage jobs are paying $15-20 per hour.

It's amazing the growth going on in that side of the state.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 114):
It seems that McDonalds has been doing alright in Australia, else why would they open there? Why would someone buy the franchise, to lose money? Of course they do not intend to lose anything. They intend to pay the wages prescribed by law there and make a ton of money. They are forced, just as I am advocating here. Greed only knows one thing, laws to force them, or force to force them to pay fairly.

They also have a higher cost of living since so much has to be imported. I couldn't believe it when the gas station attendant outside of Cairns told me a soda and a small bag of chips was 5 bucks.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 117):
All that proves is when the fat cats are desperate for labor, and there is money to be made, no matter the cost of labor, they will violate their own principles to make that money, such as paying average wages for labor.

And average wages for McDonalds labor is minimum wage in most places.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 125):
Those who are blindly following right-wing media and have been for years have one thing in common: They don't understand the million shades of grey. They believe there are only two absolutes: Their way and the evil "liberal" way. They do not see the millions of opinions in between. I have changed my way of thinking and understanding. Right wing followers, sadly, are told they are to never ever do this and I don't know why. We were such a better nation when we all recognized the million shades of grey.

So blindly following left wing media is okay? You say we don't ever change our ways of thinking and generalize us all, without basis. You constantly act as if the far right represents all of us. Yet complain when the right generalizes all of the left as extreme left. It goes both ways.
Pat

seb146 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:06 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 127):
So blindly following left wing media is okay?

This is not about left wing media. The one channel that is not, nor has ever professed to be, news and the dozen or so radio stations around the country. My comment was about right wing media which is found in all corners of the nation on multiple channels and frequencies around the radio dial. Look at "liberal" San Francisco. One "liberal" radio station that is only "liberal" part time. Three right-wing stations. FOX everywhere. I know there is fewer choices for alternate information in other cities. I just spent a week in Salt Lake City over the summer. Being a radio geek, I get it.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 127):
Like getting a good minor or finding a field you have interest in that is in demand.

Like engineering or anything computer related? Those people who work at Wal-Mart with those degrees? The ones I mentioned? Even some teachers have to take a second job just to make ends meet.

BMI727 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:11 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 110):
Which other countries? The European ones? They are virtually stuck in a no-growth mode and unemployment is as high as 25% in some countries, particularly for young people.

Maybe they're happy being unemployed.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 124):
We pay taxes so we don't have to have people dying in the street from starvation

I buy food so I don't die in the street from starvation. How everyone else wants to manage their money is up to them.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 124):
I have noticed something: Those who are blindly following right-wing media and have been for years have one thing in common: They don't understand the million shades of grey.

That's funny coming from you, since you are literally my only exposure to right wing media. There are plenty of shades of grey, but you are among the worst of them who want some of my money to get better cheese.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 127):
Then they go back to school and gain new skills. It isn't a new thing. My mother did so 5 years ago while still working full time and raising two kids.

Now, let's not get crazy and suggest people do something for themselves.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 127):
So blindly following left wing media is okay?

According to Seb there is no such thing as the left wing media.

DeltaMD90 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:28 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 128):
This is not about left wing media. The one channel that is not, nor has ever professed to be, news and the dozen or so radio stations around the country. My comment was about right wing media which is found in all corners of the nation on multiple channels and frequencies around the radio dial. Look at "liberal" San Francisco. One "liberal" radio station that is only "liberal" part time. Three right-wing stations. FOX everywhere. I know there is fewer choices for alternate information in other cities. I just spent a week in Salt Lake City over the summer. Being a radio geek, I get it.

There is absolutely no where in America where there isn't multiple right wing sources and multiple left wing sources. You are sounding like the opposite of the people claiming some giant liberal media conspiracy... stahp...

seb146 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:52 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 130):
There is absolutely no where in America where there isn't multiple right wing sources and multiple left wing sources.

I would beg to differ. Not because the sources are not out there but because people are too lazy to fact check. People listen to (just as an example) Rush and think "Well, he fact checked, so I don't have to" but they are wrong. They are lazy. They don't get that they are SUPPOSED to, as humans and as Americans, look stuff up on their own. They just believe whatever "facts" are given to them.

Case in point: I do not agree with banning ALL guns. I understand and agree that some guns are necessary. For food, for example. Some people I follow on the left, want ALL guns to be banned. We can find common ground. However, to "conservatives", I am a Constitution hating "liberal" because I don't want people to have access to assault weapons.

cmf · Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:00 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 100):
He doesn't make a case. He just thinks that it's bad that others have nicer toys than he does and that the wealthy should pay him for the privilege of sharing a planet with him.

Still just sound bites. You argue him and not the issue. It is what you generally do. Because of this I will just ignore your posts from now on. Fully expect some snide remark because of this.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 101):
You believe in forcing companies to price their products more than they are worth to the vast majority of consumers.

I believe they should not be underpriced because part of the supply chain is under duress.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 101):
Why don't you try operating a food service business with "living wages" and tell us how it works for you?

That is what my family does. No problem. Of course it is in countries where fast food restaurants are also required to provide a living wage.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 112):
There is such a shortage of labor due to the Bakken shale activity that traditional minimum wage jobs are paying $15-20 per hour.

And McD is still making money hand over fist.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 115):
you do believe in an economy where transactions are based on force and not mutual agreement.

Why we need minimum wage.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 127):
I couldn't believe it when the gas station attendant outside of Cairns told me a soda and a small bag of chips was 5 bucks.

Don't know where you are but the price here in south Florida isn't that far from it.

mad99 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:14 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 129):
Maybe they're happy being unemployed.

That's funny!

Next time i see a unemployment protest that's what i'm going to tell them.

Revelation · Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:46 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 101):
You support their employees because voting blocks believe we have an obligation to support their standard of living since they cannot provide it themselves.

These voting blocks believe it's better to provide people an opportunity to improve themselves rather than to forever be in the circle of poverty.

The same voting blocks see the historically high concentration of wealth and historically high income disparities and wonder why the rich continue to get tax breaks and corporate welfare that assures they are paying historically low levels of tax.

Again I'm amazed on the laser focus on what the poor are doing, compared to next to none on what the rich are doing.

WarRI1 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:01 pm

http://hosted2.ap.org/APDEFAULT/cae6...5/Article_2013-10-29-Iran-Nuclear/

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 117):
I think the Eurozone stagnation can be attributed to stiff business regulations, bad energy policy, bad fiscal policy, and yes, high cost and inflexible labor.

This article seems to disagree with your assessment of Europe's woes. It seems to be getting better, I guess labor has capitulated, given up making trouble. What other explanation could there be? According to you labors costs cause all the problems, along with regulations. Hmmmn!!! Maybe you are wrong?

DeltaMD90 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:38 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 131):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 130):
There is absolutely no where in America where there isn't multiple right wing sources and multiple left wing sources.

I would beg to differ. Not because the sources are not out there but because people are too lazy to fact check.

So you disagree with my statement and in your explanation you agree with what I said initially then insert a totally different statement that I also agree with?

Again, there is no where in the US where you can't get multiple right and multiple left sources. Whether or not people fact check is a different story

seb146 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:52 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 136):
there is no where in the US where you can't get multiple right and multiple left sources. Whether or not people fact check is a different story

The best place for that would be the internet. However, the right is content to let people tell them things. The left is more likely to say "That could be right but I'll check anyway."

Granted, there are those on the left who are lazy and those on the right who check, but, more often than not, the right is willing to accept what they are told by their own media.

Left-wing talk host Randi Rhodes always always always tells people: never believe what any pundit tells you ever. She includes herself. Sage advice. I wonder what would happen if Rush or FOX started trumpeting that?

DeltaMD90 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:14 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
The left is more likely to say "That could be right but I'll check anyway."

Be careful making claims like this you cannot back up

Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
I wonder what would happen if Rush or FOX started trumpeting that?

To be fair, I have heard Rush say this, multiple times. He's very strong with his opinion and I think people just take his word for it, but he is not an advocate of people just blindly believing him (or at least that's what he says, and I can believe him, even if I disagree with much/most of what he says)

Flighty · Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:33 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 138):
but he is not an advocate of people just blindly believing him

That's just part of his hypnotism schtick. He's a hypnotist.

[Edited 2013-10-29 09:34:04]

DfwRevolution · Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:59 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 122):
Whoa, we the workers are getting screwed, and it is the wealthy who are committing the rape. I do not find it enjoyable either.

You are the one who four times wanted to force yourself on someone else. I'm calling it like I see it.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 121):
Ask the German's, ask the Norwegians, ask most of Europe, see how unhappy they are.

Unhappy enough to riot in Sweden:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel...wedens-riots-say-ab_b_3334501.html

And Spain:

http://www.policymic.com/articles/19...ts-will-only-hurt-european-economy

And Greece:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19911058

Heck, this headline is a doozey: "EU Faces Highest Social Unrest, Strikes and Riot Risk in the World"

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/47...t-riots-strikes-work-stoppages.htm

jetblueguy22 · Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:48 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 128):
The one channel that is not, nor has ever professed to be, news and the dozen or so radio stations around the country. My comment was about right wing media which is found in all corners of the nation on multiple channels and frequencies around the radio dial. Look at "liberal" San Francisco. One "liberal" radio station that is only "liberal" part time. Three right-wing stations. FOX everywhere. I know there is fewer choices for alternate information in other cities. I just spent a week in Salt Lake City over the summer. Being a radio geek, I get it.

You get it but the rest of us don't? There is Fox everywhere, just like MSNBC. There is the Huff Po everywhere, just like the drudge report. The list goes on and on.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 128):
Like engineering or anything computer related? Those people who work at Wal-Mart with those degrees? The ones I mentioned? Even some teachers have to take a second job just to make ends meet.

Like I said, you work to get a degree in demand.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 129):
That's funny coming from you, since you are literally my only exposure to right wing media

Same. All I hear about is the lies I get from Fox News. I couldn't even tell you the last time I had it on. And talk radio? When I'm in the car I listen to my iPhone through bluetooth.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 131):
People listen to (just as an example) Rush and think "Well, he fact checked, so I don't have to" but they are wrong. They are lazy. They don't get that they are SUPPOSED to, as humans and as Americans, look stuff up on their own. They just believe whatever "facts" are given to them.

It's impossible to back that up. People take the news as fact no matter what they listen to.

Quoting cmf (Reply 132):
Don't know where you are but the price here in south Florida isn't that far from it.

I can go to the corner gas station right now and get the same for $2.75

Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
The left is more likely to say "That could be right but I'll check anyway."

You have a really romantic view of the left. At least I can come out and say the right is wrong on things.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
Randi Rhodes

Who?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
never believe what any pundit tells you ever. She includes herself

Then why the heck listen to her?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 138):
Be careful making claims like this you cannot back up

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 129):
Maybe they're happy being unemployed.

I highly doubt that a majority of them are happy being unemployed. Maybe some, but I bet the large majority would prefer to have a job.

Pat

cmf · Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:51 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 141):
I can go to the corner gas station right now and get the same for $2.75

Good for you. Don't expect it when you get here

lewis · Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:54 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 140):

You are comparing apples to oranges. The Sweden riots are irrelevant to the general happiness of the population as they were similar to the immigrant riots in Paris a few years back. Young immigrant is involved in something illegal, gets shot by police and the rest of the group thinks it is OK to start breaking and looting their own neighborhoods.

As for Greece and Spain, you are taking two of the countries that have been worst hit by the crisis. You also need to check the difference between a riot and a demonstration. The latter is very frequent in S Europe and it may look shocking to Americans (who need 7-8 helicopters and 60 police cars to monitor a Mayday parade/demonstration of 50 people) but its non-news to us. Having grown up in one of those countries, I have witnessed any of those things exactly 0 times in my life. It looks much worse on TV than reality, where everyone goes on business as usual. By the way, the social safety nets that are discussed in this thread are almost non-existent in those two countries because of austerity, hence a lot of pissed off people.

At the end of the day, all the articles you mentioned point to the frustration of people about wealth inequality and the gap that keeps growing. And yes, Europeans are pissed off about it and very vocal, while on this side of the Atlantic all people do is hear about it and shrug.

Dreadnought · Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:13 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 141):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
Randi Rhodes

Who?

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 141):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
The left is more likely to say "That could be right but I'll check anyway."

You have a really romantic view of the left. At least I can come out and say the right is wrong on things.

I have seen some conservatives who believe too easily. Birthers, for instance. But generally they are healthily sceptical - which is why the GOP is so fractured right now - you have at least 4 schools of thought in conflict, and everyone is not willing to simply fall into line.

I have to say I have not found such skepticism in leftists I know - and especially not in a few members of this forum (ahem - you know who they are).

Quoting Flighty (Reply 139):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 138):
but he is not an advocate of people just blindly believing him

That's just part of his hypnotism schtick. He's a hypnotist.

Spoken like someone who really knows what he's talking about. Yeah sure

Every day, Rush's show centers around news articles and opinion pieces, and he organizes them into his "Stack", and during the show he pulls them out one by one, reads them out (at least in part) and discusses them. That is the core of his 'schtick', as you call it. The Stack is published every day at the start of the show. Everything is linked to where he got them. He gives you all the tools you need to verify it on your own.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/stackofstuff

[Edited 2013-10-29 15:13:32]

PPVRA · Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:12 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 125):
Who me, or my country? If you are talking to me about getting screwed. I am sorry, I am comfortably retired 16 years Jan 2014. I had a successful career, my wife also. We were well paid, have defined pension plans, had 401 k's, matching funds from the company. We are on SS, Medicare, a prescription plan from my employer. You are barking up the wrong tree, nobody is screwing me. I am an advocate for those who follow me. I am an advocate for the workers who did not have it as good as me. I am an advocate for the poor, the sick, and the weak. I am someone who has been very fortunate in life, and I try to pass it on to my children, grandchildren, my friends, and family. I advocate for the people who are being screwed over by the advocates of greed and selfishness. That is my Ideology. May I ask what yours is ? I will understand if you do not answer. I am proud of my Ideology. I screw over nobody, but I will not let anyone screw me over either.

You screw over nobody? You've been cashing checks and benefits earned on the labor of others for 16 years!! And you BOAST about it!!!

BMI727 · Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:12 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 132):
Still just sound bites. You argue him and not the issue.

He doesn't have a case. He just thinks that it's bad for rich people to have too much money and that it entitles him and everyone else to some of it.

Quoting lewis (Reply 143):
At the end of the day, all the articles you mentioned point to the frustration of people about wealth inequality and the gap that keeps growing. And yes, Europeans are pissed off about it and very vocal, while on this side of the Atlantic all people do is hear about it and shrug.

Because Europeans hate investing? What do they think entitles them to someone else's money? It isn't theirs, so they should keep their hands to themselves.

DeltaMD90 · Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:29 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 144):
Every day, Rush's show centers around news articles and opinion pieces, and he organizes them into his "Stack", and during the show he pulls them out one by one, reads them out (at least in part) and discusses them. That is the core of his 'schtick', as you call it. The Stack is published every day at the start of the show. Everything is linked to where he got them. He gives you all the tools you need to verify it on your own.

My problem with Rush is the way he approaches things. I've listened to him extensively growing up (from my dad) and I still listen to him frequently to see what he has to say (hey, I can disagree with a lot of what he says, but he brings up things I don't hear anywhere else that I can look into.) His whole approach is one that many talking heads on the right use--treating the President like he's a narcissist that hates America, politicizes everything, wants to basically have America fall into line with Europe on everything, has these elaborate plans (such as make the ACA so bad that we'll choose to go to a single payer system,) etc. When you approach it like that and get the audience fired up, of course you're gonna think the President is up to no good.

What really changed a lot of my views was a single speech of the President a few years ago... forgot which one, but it didn't matter. Instead of the sly, narcissistic politician, I saw a man who loved his country and just had some policies I disagreed with. After that, everything changed. I didn't necessarily agree with anything more than I used to, but when I heard the usual talking heads from the right building up the President as some big bad guy, I saw right through it and it really turned me off from the GOP. I think a lot of young people are seeing that. They don't even have to agree with the President, they just realize he's not a bad guy and the GOP goes way too off the deep end describing him.

That's my problem with Rush and much of the GOP

Aesma · Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:33 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 110):
Which other countries? The European ones? They are virtually stuck in a no-growth mode and unemployment is as high as 25% in some countries, particularly for young people. The U.S. is vastly outperforming the Eurozone post-recession.

This is only because the US is dumping debt on the rest of the world while Germany won't allow the ECB to do the same, forcing drastic budget cuts instead. Do the same in the US (which is what the right wing is advocating) and you will get the same results.

The worse part being that banking regulations are still a joke, meaning the world could go back into a crisis any minute without even having enjoyed some years of growth.

BMI727 · Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:44 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 148):
This is only because the US is dumping debt on the rest of the world while Germany won't allow the ECB to do the same, forcing drastic budget cuts instead.

That's what happens when you sign up to cede monetary sovereignty.

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