Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 97):

I learned the meaning of just about every road sign out there before I even got behind the wheel the first time. As far as driving in cities and highways, there is really no requirement to show you have this ability at least in the US. My driving test in the US was literally a quick drive around a neighborhood and back to the DMV. No highways, no major traffic. Then they had a safe, cordoned off area for you to parallel park and a couple of other things.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 97): Such a qualification can not guarantee that you will never be involved in a RTA but should safety on the roads be jeopardized simply because you think it is inconvenient to sit a test?

I think that the American experience shows that such tests are unnecessary and the bureaucracy expensive.

If insurance companies want to get together and make some kind of educational course that they require or give you a discount on your premiums if you attend, go ahead. They already do that to some extent. In fact, the only Americans I know that went through formal driving training did so for a 10% discount insurance companies offer.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 98): I'll point out that there are (too many) people here in the US illegally and they don't have any known identity as far as government/police databases are concerned. They buy beater or stolen cars cheap using cash. Good luck finding one of these people after a hit and run. I guarantee you they won't stop because they have no insurance, no registration, no license and know they're going to be deported if they get caught.

Yet another reason to eliminate registration and licensing requirements.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 93):

Yes the current law allows to operate a vehicle without plates and merely the dealers cardboard advertisement for a period of up to six months. A temp sticker known as a dealers report of sale (ROS) sticker is affixed to the lower corner of the front windshield in the right corner. The sticker is approx the same size of a 3x5 card with the purchaser info as well as the vin. Usually the plates arrive in about 30 days, however you can legally operate it for up to six months without installing the plates. However there is no way to see just by looking at the car when the date of sale was unless you examine the ROS.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 91): That's how driver training in the US works! And it works as well if not better than most EU countries.

I'm saying I don't care where you learn to drive, you must meet the standards set by the government. By what I read (if I understood you correctly) you're saying that you could have learned on a farm so licenses mean nothing. No. Licenses mean that wherever you learned to drive, you did a satisfactory enough of a job

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 91): Now, how many bad apples get their driver's license every day? The roads are full of them.

So you're advocating tougher standards? I'm ok with that, but that seems to go in the opposite direction of what you're arguing

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 91): Most people and companies impose on themselves much tighter rules than the government creates.

Ironically, you are making a big deal about the government's rules on driving not being enough so you're doing what exactly what you are complaining about. But I don't follow your logic as it pertains to this discussion--having a plate and having a DL... that is what the government requires. How do people impose having "more than a plate or DL?" If you're talking about driver's ed making insurance lower, there is a very obvious reason for that

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 103): So you're advocating tougher standards? I'm ok with that, but that seems to go in the opposite direction of what you're arguing

Why would I? It doesn't result in lower accident rates.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 103): that is what the government requires. How do people impose having "more than a plate or DL?" If you're talking about driver's ed making insurance lower, there is a very obvious reason for that

Is it because of the additional training or because people who seek additional training are lower risk?

Obvious, huh?

Why is anyone here still bothering to debate with PPVRA? He is just trolling and insisting on a ridiculous standard and personal definitions that makes no sense. He seems unable to comprehend that "the government" and "the law/rules" aren't something just abusively applied, but that they rather are created by the people using and living with the system and rules created. We create our own laws and insist they be applied to all, it is not some draconian measure imposed upon by some separate authority.

I think he is now just having fun and trolling (my personal opinion) so I stopped discussing it with him and just enjoy reading his ludicrous posts and reasoning (though I am not saying he always this way, he posts enough that I know he is intelligent and can make well reasoned arguments, he is just not doing so here). However I do fully agree that he is:

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 97): keeping the thread alive much longer than it might otherwise have lasted.

 

I think it is a good idea to have plates of some type, temporary or otherwise, in place from the time of purchase. I find it perfectly acceptable and something that can obviously be implemented with out much trouble. I will be curious to see how CA does implement it.

Tugg

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 104): Why would I? It doesn't result in lower accident rates.

Driving training doesn't result in safer drivers? While I have no stats on hand, I can't say I believe you. Kinda ties in with the next quote:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 104): Is it because of the additional training or because people who seek additional training are lower risk? Obvious, huh?

Well it's pretty obvious it helps since insurance companies give you a discounted rate (because in the long run, they pay less because there are less accidents.) So yeah, pretty obvious.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 100): Quoting Revelation (Reply 98): I'll point out that there are (too many) people here in the US illegally and they don't have any known identity as far as government/police databases are concerned. They buy beater or stolen cars cheap using cash. Good luck finding one of these people after a hit and run. I guarantee you they won't stop because they have no insurance, no registration, no license and know they're going to be deported if they get caught. Yet another reason to eliminate registration and licensing requirements.

I'm no fan of license plate scanners showing up everywhere, but I'm less of a fan of people who have come here illegally. The best way to deal with this issue is to make sure you can audit every business to make sure every employee is here legally and is paying the proper taxes. Again, I don't like license plate scanners but if they can help us get rid of illegal drivers I am willing to put up with them.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 101): Yes the current law allows to operate a vehicle without plates and merely the dealers cardboard advertisement for a period of up to six months. A temp sticker known as a dealers report of sale (ROS) sticker is affixed to the lower corner of the front windshield in the right corner. The sticker is approx the same size of a 3x5 card with the purchaser info as well as the vin. Usually the plates arrive in about 30 days, however you can legally operate it for up to six months without installing the plates. However there is no way to see just by looking at the car when the date of sale was unless you examine the ROS.

That's a bit of an advantage of the paper tag system: at least there is a number on the car that can be seen from outside.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 106): Driving training doesn't result in safer drivers? While I have no stats on hand, I can't say I believe you. Kinda ties in with the next quote:

Look them up. Driving in the US is no more dangerous than in Europe, where standards are tighter and driver's ed expensive.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 106): Well it's pretty obvious it helps since insurance companies give you a discounted rate (because in the long run, they pay less because there are less accidents.) So yeah, pretty obvious.

For which reason? I gave an alternative. Maybe the world is not as obvious as you think.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 108): Look them up. Driving in the US is no more dangerous than in Europe, where standards are tighter and driver's ed expensive.

Comparing driving in the US to Europe is not a fair comparison. We do a lot more driving than we do. Perhaps us driving more makes us just as good as Europeans with driver's ed, regardless, not a great comparison IMO

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 108): For which reason? I gave an alternative. Maybe the world is not as obvious as you think.

Which reason? I don't care. Whatever the reason, it seems to work. I don't see insurance companies lowering payments for no good reason

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 108): Comparing driving in the US to Europe is not a fair comparison. We do a lot more driving than we do. Perhaps us driving more makes us just as good as Europeans with driver's ed, regardless, not a great comparison IMO

More driving means more risk. Americans start driving at a much younger age, as young as 15. Insurance companies see greater than average risk until you are 25 years old, so that's a greater amount of risk exposure for a longer amount of time than in Europe.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 108): Which reason? I don't care. Whatever the reason, it seems to work. I don't see insurance companies lowering payments for no good reason

Just remembered: insurances also give discounts to students who get good grades. Another indication that driving safety is about making wise decisions, not your ability to parallel park. Good luck regulating that!

Fact of the matter is, driving is easy. Very easy. Bigger factors affecting safety appear to be unrelated to actual driving skills or in depth knowledge of traffic rules.

I used to live in St. Louis, Missouri and I would see A LOT of people with Illinois "Temp tags" What that meant to every cop in the city was "I don't have insurance and or a license, because in Illinois you didn't need them to get the temp tag. Temp tags are a great excuse to get pulled over and never give the police an excuse to pull me over.

Here in Michigan I see people driving with no plates and it is usually because the person never registers the car and just drives it anyway, likely not being caught. This is VERY common in Detroit where the police don't bother enforcing this kind of crime. Another popular thing that I have seen a lot of places is having an outdated out of state plate on the car. They probably think the police will not notice an out of state expired plate because the stickers aren't going to be as obvious to them as the ones they are used to seeing. The police would have to inspect the plate very closely to see the date. I notice this when I travel around the Midwest and see old Michigan plates (a type we don't have anymore) on cars. I see cars here in Detroit. I have noticed it in Michigan too. My parent's neighbor has had expired California plates on her car for 5 years, in Missouri. She told me that she'll register the car and get the correct plates if she gets pulled over. I bet she doesn't have a valid license either.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 54): Or better, own and drive a car and not be forced to put a largely useless tag on it that on top of it being ugly, carries with it privacy risks.

The tag is only useless to you. However, when you are driving on public roads you need to comply with related laws and that includes plates on your car. Not a big deal to get excited about.

And "privacy"? If you want privacy then stay off of the public roads. You are going to be seen, just like you will if you walk into a store.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 56): A husband hire a murder to kill his wife.

And maybe the guy he tries to hire is an undercover cop and the husband gets arrested - not a very private thing.

Good effort at a long bow reach - even if there is no real target for you to hit.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 59): Or it means you are busy and forgot, or didn't notice the expiration. Or you forgot your "papers" at home. I bet this is 99% of the cases, at least in the U.S.

I forgot my wallet going to the store last week, but did have my DL number in my iPhone so I would have ben able to provide the number. Probably would have been given a voidable ticket if I was stopped.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 59): He can wait in a certain location until she drives by, and then follow her until a red light.

Still looking for some creative excuse not to have a plate? missed again.

Quoting lewis (Reply 60): Correct me if I'm wrong but the computers in police cars can check if you have a valid DL.

The police can run your plates as you are being pulled over and our license when they are handed it. If running your plates hows a risk problem then backup can be called immediately.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 62): I don't see it as some egregious violation of privacy

It's not, especially when you are driving in public.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63): It has happened to me once.

If you had been stopped you might have been given a ticket, but allowed to drive to the DMV. Depends if it was your DL to tag that had expired. Oklahoma has a 30 day grace period, with a $1 a day fine. After that it gets expensive.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63): From what I understand, in the US, there is no such system. Either you get somebody there to drive your car or it gets towed.

The police here have been pretty good at writing voidable tickets for situations where you lost your wallet. Especially when your wallet was stolen and you have your police report in the car for them to see if they stop you.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63): All laws are enforced by violent force or the threat thereof. Traffic laws are no different. Being prohibited from driving because you forgot your license at home is ridiculous, and if you ignore the police officer and drive off in protest, he will pull a gun on you sooner or later. Try to defend yourself from this absurdity and you may end up with a bullet lodged somewhere you don't want. Draconian? Yeah, absolutely.

You drive off after being stopped and you have raised sufficient red flags to get several more police cars involved. Now if you are one of the yo-yos with an open carry gun things can get even worse.

But before you drive off in "protest" remember that a ticket is a courtesy alternative to an actual arrest. Drive off when you are stopped and you get the full party. Cuffs, free ride to the police department, free photos & fingerprints and a not-so-nice place to stay until a lawyer gets you out. Then you get to try to find where your car was towed to and you get to pay that also.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63): If you are worried about tax and registration, there are other ways to keep track of that.

The Tag & Tax system has been functioning too long for it to be stopped. It is one of those tax revenue systems that automatically has revenues increases based on the inflation impact of car prices. Live with it.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 64): If you get a gun pulled on you for not having a DL then you hit the jackpot... go to any lawyer and you're gonna be a rich man

When a cop pulls a gun there is generally a pretty serious reason. Put that reason in front of a jury and you won;'t be so rich.

Also recognize that if a cop pulls a gun you are probably heading to jail. Your courtesy alternative to an arrest may have been lost because of your actions.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 101): Usually the plates arrive in about 30 days, however you can legally operate it for up to six months without installing the plates. However there is no way to see just by looking at the car when the date of sale was unless you examine the ROS.

What I was getting at is that no cars have to leave the dealers with a plate, will CA now make it mandatory that all existing cars without plates be made to wear them? It would be daft if they didn't.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26): AFAIK, most hit and runs are the results of accidents, not intentional crimes. I don't see significant risks in not solving the case right away.

While the crash might have been an accident (generally very few crashes are true accidents), the hit and run is a crime from the moment you decided not to stick around.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 26): Would be nice to have an actual police officer chime in, but I have a feeling the check out and car that matches model and color description. After all, you can swap tags pretty easily.

Hmm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40): I can think of a lot of randomly assigned digits that you would not be willing to post here.

Since my privacy has been violated, come find me. First beer is on me when you do  

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 40): Tracking and identifying is what gives the police that help. Just remember that this also gives everyone else the opportunity to do the same.

See above

Quoting lewis (Reply 60): That is very far fetched. You do get notification that your license is expiring soon and that you need to renew. Its like saying you would arrive to the airport with an expired passport simply because you "forgot to check" or didn't notice. Well, sucks for you, you won't be traveling internationally that day.

Exactly.

Quoting lewis (Reply 60): Which happens all the time. It is fine, nobody will shoot you and you will get away with a slap on the wrist. Correct me if I'm wrong but the computers in police cars can check if you have a valid DL.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 63): From what I understand, in the US, there is no such system. Either you get somebody there to drive your car or it gets towed. Not sure exactly what happens I've only heard stories.

There is indeed such a system. You give me your name and DOB, and I can find your DL on my computer. If you're from my state, I can also look up your photo to make sure you're not giving me a false name.

Quoting flymia (Reply 68): Your understanding is wrong, at least in Florida. You give them you date of birth, name and address and they can look you up either by their own computer in the car or from dispatch. You may get a ticket for failure to present your license but no one is getting towed, arrested or being prohibited to drive unless you actually don't have a license or it is suspended. But it can vary state to state, I only know Florida law well.

Same in ND. You could get a ticket for no DL in possession, but I doubt those are issued very frequently.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 73): Anyone, please chime in if I'm wrong

I'll chime in that you're correct.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 110): This is VERY common in Detroit where the police don't bother enforcing this kind of crime.

I don't think it has so much to do with bother, as in have time because they are so short staffed. I read an article about DPD, and they are always dozens of high priority calls behind. Doesn't leave much time for traffic enforcement.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 110): Another popular thing that I have seen a lot of places is having an outdated out of state plate on the car. They probably think the police will not notice an out of state expired plate because the stickers aren't going to be as obvious to them as the ones they are used to seeing.

I know the colors of the states around me, and even if I don't, it takes only a few seconds to check the expiration on my computer.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 111): If you had been stopped you might have been given a ticket, but allowed to drive to the DMV. Depends if it was your DL to tag that had expired. Oklahoma has a 30 day grace period, with a $1 a day fine. After that it gets expensive.

ND doesn't have a grace period, but I have a personal grace period of one month. Less than a month over, I will stop you and give you a warning. More than a month over, you get written proof of our meeting.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 101): Usually the plates arrive in about 30 days, however you can legally operate it for up to six months without installing the plates. However there is no way to see just by looking at the car when the date of sale was unless you examine the ROS.

30 days? Here I go to my county´s registration office with a cert from an insurance company, the car ownership cert (whoever can show this piece of paper is considered the legal owner, so you´d better keep it in a safe place and NOT in the car, it even says so on the paper) and the (still valid) report from the last technical road safety inspection. It will not take 10 minutes from the moment I have been called up to the clerk giving me a slip with my new registration number. With this I go to one of several numberplate embossing shops, which are usually located around the registraion office, and get my number plates printed (costs about 20 Euros for a car, motorbikes are cheaper because you only need one plate). Then I return to the registraion office, pay my fee and get the official seals afixed to the number plates and the certificate of registration (which I have to bring along when I´m driving).
I registered two vehicles this year, one car and one motorbike and each of them didn´t take me one hour. All I had to do was to mount the numberplates on my vehicle. Add to this half an hour drive each to and from the registration office to the village I live in.

Jan

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 111): When a cop pulls a gun there is generally a pretty serious reason. Put that reason in front of a jury and you won;'t be so rich.

If a cop follows the law religiously, then yes, you done goofed. But in PPVRA's world they apparently point a gun at you if you forget your DL or in other non serious situations. I think he doesn't know what he's talking about, honestly. If he is drawn upon in these minor situations then yes, you're gonna make a lot of money (the point is, cops don't unless they're seriously violating the use of force)

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 113): While the crash might have been an accident (generally very few crashes are true accidents), the hit and run is a crime from the moment you decided not to stick around.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 113): Since my privacy has been violated, come find me. First beer is on me when you do

Those points have already been addressed above.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 113): There is indeed such a system. You give me your name and DOB, and I can find your DL on my computer. If you're from my state, I can also look up your photo to make sure you're not giving me a false name.

Then why didn't GA police allow a former professor of mine to drive home and get her DL? They made somebody come and "rescue" her. To have the system and still be petty enough to not let that person drive home and get her DL is even worse. And it's really what I was complaining about - the requirement to have a piece of plastic on you or be considered a freaking criminal.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 113): Since my privacy has been violated, come find me. First beer is on me when you do

By the way. . .

NSA admits employees spied on husbands, boyfriends, and girlfriends:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/20501...employees-spied-on-loved-ones.html


If that's happening at the NSA. . .

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 80): Aren't you technically a felon due to some ridiculous traffic law? Or did you manage to get that expunged?

A misdimeanor. And yes, it was a ridiculous law. That doesn't mean that drivers licenses are bad. If anything, they are too easy to get.

[Edited 2013-10-31 15:59:36]

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 91): Let's say someone would like to go the civil disobedience way just to prove a point. Criminal, or not?

Those who partake in civil disobedience generally face some sort of penalty. As they should, otherwise there would be no point in having laws to disobey.

-Mir

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 116): Then why didn't GA police allow a former professor of mine to drive home and get her DL?

Were you there when it happened? For example, if I stop a person with no license (not just not having it with them), they get a citation and go on their merry way. However, if the person is suspended or revoked, it's a different story and they will either get a court date if they are local, or be held until they are seen by a judge, or released if they post $400 bond and get a court date set. Always two sides to a story...except in your world of course, where only your side is correct.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 120): Were you there when it happened? For example, if I stop a person with no license (not just not having it with them), they get a citation and go on their merry way. However, if the person is suspended or revoked, it's a different story and they will either get a court date if they are local, or be held until they are seen by a judge, or released if they post $400 bond and get a court date set.

I was not there, she shared the story with the class. No reason to believe she wasn't telling the full story.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 120): Always two sides to a story...except in your world of course, where only your side is correct.

Only my side is correct? Jeez. . . how many times must be repeated that a tag with numbers exposed to the public can be used by police AND the public. Even spoon feeding doesn't seem to work. I get counter-arguments like "the public doesn't have access to police system". . . really? Don't give me this poorly thought out crap. There are other ways to use publicly available identifying features.

It's not me that my ideology is blinding, which is quite telling.

[Edited 2013-10-31 16:33:37]

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 109): Just remembered: insurances also give discounts to students who get good grades.

They do indeed, along with a handful of other discounts a student can get. I went through this process a while ago (I'm 16) and adding me to my father's policy actually pushed down his premiums. That should tell you how he drives...

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 121): how many times must be repeated that a tag with numbers exposed to the public can be used by police AND the public.

So do the public have access to the computer systems police have in your world, unless they do I don't see how they can use your plate.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 123):

Spain went the other way on that, and have a centralised registration system for some time now, rather than regional. My friend from Seville said he preferred the new system as there was less theft and vandalism of out of town vehicles.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 110):

Differences are what makes the world interesting I suppose. Personally I find it amazing that people think its entirely normal to drive in some places with no plates at all, or ones that expired years ago.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 124): So do the public have access to the computer systems police have in your world, unless they do I don't see how they can use your plate.

An example has already been given in this thread.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 110): Here in Michigan I see people driving with no plates and it is usually because the person never registers the car and just drives it anyway, likely not being caught. This is VERY common in Detroit where the police don't bother enforcing this kind of crime.

That's unusual. Most cops know car registration aids in crime prevention and it also helps pay their salaries. One should think they could put on some cops to just clean up that problem and they'd pay for themselves.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 110): My parent's neighbor has had expired California plates on her car for 5 years, in Missouri. She told me that she'll register the car and get the correct plates if she gets pulled over. I bet she doesn't have a valid license either.

It's idiots like her that cause the fines to be so stiff.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 128): I wasn't clear, before the system was department by department and you had to change plates if you moved from one to another (there are a hundred of them !), now the department indication is just decorative, the ID is on a national system. Next step is a European wide system.

Your old system is like the Germsan system. In Ireland, where a car keeps the same registration number on it´s plate, which contains both the date of the first registration and the county, where it was registered in, people preferred cars registered in Dublin. Especially second hand car dealers complained that a car previously registered in the province would have less of a secondhand value. It seems that people want to be seen as sophisticated city dwellers and not as country hicks.
For me here I don´t care. My number plates start with COC, which means Cochem-Zell (two towns at the Moselle river, which, together with the surrounding villages, form a county). Before I used to have B for Berlin, MG for Moenchengladbach and K for Cologne.

Jan

Quoting Aesma (Reply 128): before the system was department by department and you had to change plates if you moved from one to another (there are a hundred of them !), now the department indication is just decorative, the ID is on a national system

It would be good if Australia adopted a similar approach. At the moment we have state-by-state registration, exactly the same as the USA (in fact our licenses plates are similarly identical). This can cause some issues on a national basis. One, law enforcement, has been mentioned throughout this thread. Another, which amuses me, is that apparently speed cameras in NSW couldn't identify Victorian license plates, so innocent New South Whalians were receiving speeding tickets clocked up by Victorians who had the same license plate combination! Then there are varying road safety standards between states. NSW require annual testing, while QLD and ACT don't, for example. Even the requirements to get a driving license vary by state, especially relating to our somewhat convoluted L and P system for young drivers. Overall, I think that moving to a national system, while highly unlikely to ever happen, would make the process much more efficient.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 70): A commercial certificate, yes. But a PPL? Not so sure. . .

Why should there be a difference? Verifiable safety is the same without regard.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 85): I don't know why you have such a strong stance against some of the most basic laws society has come up with...

In fairness to PPVRA, it's really not so basic anymore.

While I agree that his position is quite very extreme and that most of what he is arguing against has valid reason to exist and should not be changed, there is an opposite, and frankly increasing level of bearuocratic extremism. Though outdated by a few years, this article is something I happened to randomly stumble up on the other day.

A DL & the associated registrations required to operate a vehicle are essential to road safety. And while I'm almost always in favor of increasing the level of scrutiny required to receive and maintain driver privelages, I do feel that the DMV is not a cookie jar for the state to use as an ad-hoc collection agency.

Question to the non-united statians here. Do you all have similar recourse for debt collection WRT driver licensing agencies in your countries? Just curious about that.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 92): In Illinois, many (perhaps most or all) dealers have a stack of new plates on site.

Ok, a little off topic, but something I noticed a while back about Illinois. Do vanity tags cost less if they include a number? The last few times I've been that way I noticed that almost all the personalized plates I saw had numbers in them. Again, just curious here.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 120): For example, if I stop a person with no license (not just not having it with them), they get a citation and go on their merry way. However, if the person is suspended or revoked, it's a different story and they will either get a court date if they are local, or be held until they are seen by a judge, or released if they post $400 bond and get a court date set.

Just out of curiosity, why is it less of a big deal (lacking a better term) to operate with no license versus being suspended? I would think in either case there is a lack of sufficient demonstration of ability to safely operate.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 131): Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 120): For example, if I stop a person with no license (not just not having it with them), they get a citation and go on their merry way. However, if the person is suspended or revoked, it's a different story and they will either get a court date if they are local, or be held until they are seen by a judge, or released if they post $400 bond and get a court date set. Just out of curiosity, why is it less of a big deal (lacking a better term) to operate with no license versus being suspended? I would think in either case there is a lack of sufficient demonstration of ability to safely operate.

In one case the person has e.g. simply left his license at home (here the fine for this is IIRC less than 10 Euros), and he can show it within the next few days at the nearest police station and everything is fine, but he is not banned from driving. Happened to me before, e.g. by accidentally leaving my wallet in my working trousers.

In the second case the person has already demonstrated that he is NOT as safe driver (the license has obviously been revoked for a reason) and is therefore being banned from driving on court order, or has never demonstrated that he knows how to operate a vehicle in a safe manner (and this also means to know and obey the traffic rules. I once knew a German anarchist, who complainerd that he had to obey traffic rules, claiming that to make him obey them the state bwould have had to ask him personally if he agreed with them).

Jan

Jan,

I interpreted what KaiGywer said as never having been issued one, not simply leaving it at home. His () in the original statement seems to point in that direction. If that's not what he meant, than yes, I understand there is a mountain of difference between being suspended and just forgetting it at home.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 113):

I see that if I flip that upside down, you must like to play 9 holes. 9hole = 37046

I for one can't stand people without license plates. It helps me report drunk/stupid drivers to the local Law Enforcement. I for one, value my life, and am willing to rat on anybody who dares attempt to extinguish it.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 131): Just out of curiosity, why is it less of a big deal (lacking a better term) to operate with no license versus being suspended? I would think in either case there is a lack of sufficient demonstration of ability to safely operate.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 133): I interpreted what KaiGywer said as never having been issued one, not simply leaving it at home. His () in the original statement seems to point in that direction. If that's not what he meant, than yes, I understand there is a mountain of difference between being suspended and just forgetting it at home.

You interpreted correctly. I guess you'll have to ask our legislature about that one... To be honest, I don't know why. I guess a suspended driver has already proven themselves to be a "bad driver", while as one without one hasn't proven him/herself one way or another. One is a $20 fine, the other is a misdemeanor. Some of our laws don't make a whole lot of sense.

Quoting Grisee08 (Reply 135): I see that if I flip that upside down, you must like to play 9 holes. 9hole = 37046

Haha, I played 9 hole once. Never done any other golfing, other than mini golfing  

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 131): Question to the non-united statians here. Do you all have similar recourse for debt collection WRT driver licensing agencies in your countries?

In my state in Australia, most definitely yes. Although our D/Ls are valid for 5 years so the first recourse is to cancel the vehicle registration and then D/L, after that the vehicle can be seized and eventually any assets.

Gemuser

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 131): Quoting PPVRA (Reply 70): A commercial certificate, yes. But a PPL? Not so sure. . . Why should there be a difference? Verifiable safety is the same without regard.

Then why are there different standards for a PPL and CPL?

In fact, your question raises a related issue - what is the point of a CPL? The physics of flight don't change when you get paid for flying.

The reason CA gives you 6 months to put on plates is because their beauracracy is so slow that they can take up to 3 months to mail you the plates! I once went an entire summer without plates because the state took so long.

Most states aren't run this way. Plates come quickly, or are provided by dealers, are easily transferable from old car to new, or can be assigned and picked up at the DMV at any time.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 21): Understandably dealers are opposed to this new law. If plates have to be affixed before delivery, then it could delay the delivery of the car to the customer for a few days before the plates can be processed. This could especially be true if the car is sold say late on a Friday evening, having to wait till Monday for the DMV to open to process the application.

There is no reason this has to be the case.

That's simply a rule change that would allow the dealer to interface with a computer to check your record to make sure you are allowed to register a car, and then submit the paperwork on Monday. The dealer should have plates in a locked area and issue them like many states already allow. I know in Ohio you get the plates when you get the car. It's not a big deal.

If you are trading a car, you should be able to transfer the plates without issue like many states.

Or you could do what Massachusetts does (did?) where you must register the car yourself and you have 72 hours to do so, so that way if you buy it on Friday night you have until Monday night to do it.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 77): In many countries, the dealership puts on the initial plate from the time it gets to them, the purchasing owners information later entered in their Motor Vehicle registration systems. This is probably what will happen in CA.

California already does this, but only for high value/high theft vehicles. If you buy a Ferrari or Mercedes SL, you will get plates immediately.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 21): Understandably dealers are opposed to this new law. If plates have to be affixed before delivery, then it could delay the delivery of the car to the customer for a few days before the plates can be processed. This could especially be true if the car is sold say late on a Friday evening, having to wait till Monday for the DMV to open to process the application.

In the UK dealers will be assigned a range of numbers (ie WA63 ABA-ABZ), when a vehicle is sold, the dealer registers the vehicle with the DVLA and issues a Tax Disc. Before sale the vehicle can be driven but must have 'Trade Plates' which a temporary licence plates assigned to companies in the motor trade displayed front and rear

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 138): In fact, your question raises a related issue - what is the point of a CPL? The physics of flight don't change when you get paid for flying.

The biggest difference is that you're responsible for more lives than your own and/or whatever cargo has been consigned to your care. Same as having a CDL v DL.

As a new California resident I was very surprised that the state did not issue temporary tags like other states for new cars. Has the state determined whether they will issue paper tags for new cars leaving the dealer? Also the point was brought up (facetiously) that one of the reasons that California let you drive with no plates for 90 days was due to delays in getting your new plates mailed to the owner. In Louisiana, I was required to physically visit the DMV to get tags for my new car. It was a quick and striaghtforward process to get the tags once I got there. I find it interesting that California would mail the plates for a new car to the owner, especially since I was required to go to the Oakland DMV to get my California tags when I moved here.

Quoting NOLAWildcat (Reply 142):

I'm living in San Diego just bought a brand new car on Labor Day weekend.they taped a small folded paper registration printout to the top right corner front windshield. I've noticed the same thing on other new cars driving around last week. My plates came in the mail 2 weeks later. Hope that helps.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 141): The biggest difference is that you're responsible for more lives than your own and/or whatever cargo has been consigned to your care. Same as having a CDL v DL.

You can transport passengers with just a private pilots license. You just can't get paid to do it.

Well, back in my younger days, we didn't require license plates for our horses or a DL to operate them. The only thing was that if someone stole a horse, he/she was shot or hung. Nowadays, people get a slap on the wrist for stealing a car (plate or no plate), get released for a future court date and then go out and steal another car in the meantime.

I'm of the thinking that irrespective of license plates being another tax collection, I also believe in this time and day, they are important for many reasons, as has been presented in this topic. And I agree.

I must add a story from about 1975 or so when I had to transport a vehicle without plates from Detroit to Dearborn for some repairs I had no expertise with. Instead of simply swapping plates from another vehicle, adult beverages prevailed, and I took some lacquered white cardstock and rendered a phoney license plate right down to the faint shadows on the lowers and sides of the numbers (Michigan used to emboss their plates then). Even used a piece of reflective 3M tape for the update sticker on the lower right hand side. It was perfect. Everything went swimmingly until I was stopped at a red light on Michigan Avenue. There was a Dearborn Police car behind me. It started to rain. I had used water-soluble designer's gouache instead of a latex-based paint for the numbers. The numbers started to drip down. Guess who went to jail?

Quick end of story...I was charged with the obvious, plus forgery. The judge had a sense of humour (as did the arresting officer after all this was presented) and I escaped with reduced charges paying only court costs, and a 25 dollar fine (but of course I had to spend some four hours in the tank until my buddy bailed me out). So be it for yesterday. best regards...jack

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4): They are ugly and. . .

I don't agree with that. Some are quite cool.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4): . . . privacy issues.

No. Besides, all some nefarious baddie has to do is wait till you park and take a peak at your VIN. Or should we get rid of those too?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4): Oh, and they are hardly necessary anyways. It's only real purpose is tax related.

There are plenty of reasons for license plates - and not ones that are tax-related.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 15): You can be identified and tracked.

That can be done without license plates too.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 130): Another, which amuses me, is that apparently speed cameras in NSW couldn't identify Victorian license plates, so innocent New South Whalians were receiving speeding tickets clocked up by Victorians who had the same license plate combination!

Now speed cameras are stupid. As are a lot of speed limits.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 124): So do the public have access to the computer systems police have in your world, unless they do I don't see how they can use your plate.

Well - car dealerships have access to such systems.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 139): The reason CA gives you 6 months to put on plates is because their beauracracy is so slow that they can take up to 3 months to mail you the plates! I once went an entire summer without plates because the state took so long.

No, that's not the reason, though mailing plates is much cheaper and more efficient for the general economy than forcing people to trundle over to the DMV to pick up a pair.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 144): You can transport passengers with just a private pilots license. You just can't get paid to do it.

You can't even get your gas paid for, like you can when you give someone a ride in a car.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 146): Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4): They are ugly and. . . I don't agree with that. Some are quite cool

Some are hideous, some o.k., some cool. BUT, I hate plates on the front of vehicles. Usually messes up the styling, particularly on newer models. I'm glad that many U.S. states, mine included, have done away with front plates although some people still slap on a vanity or specialty plate on the front end. I love the goobers with the old Dodge or Ford trucks or the Honda sedan sporting a Dale Earnhardt #3 front plate. ...jack

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 144): You can transport passengers with just a private pilots license. You just can't get paid to do it.

Technically, a PPL has to be financially responsible for no less than their pro rata share of operating costs.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 147): I hate plates on the front of vehicles.

Unfortunately, California is militant about front plates. It stems from the proliferation of red-light cameras, and front plate enforcement is biggest in those cities. That said, Los Angeles dumped all of its cameras, but others haven't. I think the new toll roads use the rear plate.