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Viscount724
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Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:19 am

I guess she got tired of payiing U.S. taxes. The U.S. is almost unique in the world in taxing its citizens regardless of country of residence. She's lived in Switzerland for about 20 years and obtained Swiss citizenship earlier this year.
http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2013/...14/citizenship-renunciation-taxes/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...hes-us-citizenship-_n_4268870.html
 
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alberchico
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:37 am

I thought Swiss citizenship was famous for being virtually impossible to get ?
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FlyingSicilian
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:50 am

She relinquished but did not renounce technically:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ally-relinquishes-u-s-citizenship/



“Statement of Voluntary Relinquishment of U.S. Citizenship under Section 349 (a)(1) of the INA” — the Immigration and Naturalization Act.


"The key word in the embassy report apparently is the term “relinquishment.” That means, a knowledgeable source told us, that she did not “formally renounce her U.S. citizenship under 349(a)(5) Immigration and Nationality Act, but took Swiss citizenship with the intent to lose her U.S. citizenship.” As opposed to formal renunciation — a much more complex process, we were told — there are no “tax or other penalties for loss of citizenship in this fashion.”"
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Confuscius
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:09 am

The Swiss are cruel and heartless people. They took Tina and gave us this...unfair! I guess she's taking on a new direction. Oh well, who needs a heart when a heart can be broken.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n-swiss-citizenship_n_1507277.html
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Viscount724
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:51 am

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 2):
She relinquished but did not renounce technically:

The result is the same. It's just the process. You apparently also save a $450 fee if you can "relinquish" rather than "renounce".
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:59 am

What's patriotism got to do, got to with it? What's patriotism but a mis-interpreted notion?
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FlyingSicilian
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:41 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
The result is the same. It's just the process. You apparently also save a $450 fee if you can "relinquish" rather than "renounce".



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Not exactly. It can also make it easier should one ever want to "get it back" as it were
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Aesma
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:43 am

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
I thought Swiss citizenship was famous for being virtually impossible to get ?

20 years for someone rich and famous gets pretty close to that !
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Viscount724
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:04 am

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
I thought Swiss citizenship was famous for being virtually impossible to get ?

Not that difficult, but it can be time-consuming and there's a lot of red tape. Requires 12 years residence. I know a few people who have done it and they said it wasn't that bad. The process usually takes about a year. Procedures vary quite a bit depending where you live as it's largely administered at the state (canton) and local town/city level and they all have their own requirements.

In 2011 about 36,000 people were granted citizenship, although that's only about 2% of the 1.8 million foreigners living in Switzerland who are eligible. Some don't do it because they're from countries that don't permit dual citizenship and they don't want to lose their other nationality. Switzerland itself has no restrictions on dual citizenship.

About the only thing you can do as a citizen that you can't do with just a permanent resident permit (which requires either 5 or 10 years residence depending on your nationality) is vote. And some jobs require citizenship, especially in the government and police officers etc.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:06 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
I thought Swiss citizenship was famous for being virtually impossible to get ?

20 years for someone rich and famous gets pretty close to that !

She had never applied for citizenship until a year or so ago. She could have done it after 12 years residence.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:20 am

Well, she has been living with a European boyfriend / husband for years now (I think he is German) and I have read somewhere that one thing she liked about Europe (she used to live in Cologne as well for a while) is that she could e.g. go shopping in town and the people would respect her privacy.

Jan
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PanHAM
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 11:19 am

Well done. The quality of life in Switzerland is far better than most anywhere in the US, she lives in a posh area (Gold Coast right on Lake Zurich) but does not need a gated community. After more than 20 years in Germany and Switzerland she has done the right thing.
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luckyone
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:52 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
I thought Swiss citizenship was famous for being virtually impossible to get ?

She's also (now) married to a very rich man in his own right.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 5):
What's patriotism got to do, got to with it? What's patriotism but a mis-interpreted notion?

She's been living in Europe since the early 1980s.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
I have read somewhere that one thing she liked about Europe (she used to live in Cologne as well for a while) is that she could e.g. go shopping in town and the people would respect her privacy.

She could probably take off her wig and people wouldn't recognize her.
 
daedaeg
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:03 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 12):
Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 5):
What's patriotism got to do, got to with it? What's patriotism but a mis-interpreted notion?

She's been living in Europe since the early 1980s.

It was a joke. And a clever one at that. You don't know of any of Tina's songs? Sing it with me "What's love got to do got to do with it. What's love but a second hand emotion"  
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luckyone
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:13 pm

Quoting daedaeg (Reply 13):

It was a joke. And a clever one at that. You don't know of any of Tina's songs? Sing it with me "What's love got to do got to do with it. What's love but a second hand emotion"

I'm well aware of her material, having seen her in concert three times   I just didn't find it that funny.

[Edited 2013-11-15 07:16:50]
 
na
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:21 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):
I thought Swiss citizenship was famous for being virtually impossible to get ?

If there is something that the Swiss will never send away its someone with a lot of money.

Quoting Viscount724 (Thread starter):
She's lived in Switzerland for about 20 years

In the 90s she lived in Cologne.
 
luckyone
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:32 pm

Quoting na (Reply 15):
In the 90s she lived in Cologne.

The rough timeline goes something like this:
Early 80's to 89 she lived between London and the States.
89-94 she lived in Cologne.
Since 1994 she has lived in Zurich and had a home in the South of France that I believe she has sold.
 
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 5):
What's patriotism got to do, got to with it? What's patriotism but a mis-interpreted notion?

LOL! I caught that....well played.... haha
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:09 pm

Good for her! I've always found her to be very classy & a very good entertainer. I saw her in concert on her last tour and was very impressed, especially considering she was almost 70 at the time.

After what she put up with Ike I think she deserves whatever makes her happy.

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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:23 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
The quality of life in Switzerland is far better than most anywhere in the US,

One supposes that depends upon what you value in life experiences. Rather a broad brush...

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 18):
After what she put up with Ike I think she deserves whatever makes her happy.

That there is true.
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Sun Nov 17, 2013 6:32 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
The result is the same. It's just the process. You apparently also save a $450 fee if you can "relinquish" rather than "renounce".

There is a significant difference in the tax treatment if you "relinquished" before 1995. To relinquish rather than renounce, you have to commit an expatriating act (like take out another citizenship)

My U.S.-born wife became a Canadian citizen in 1974 and was told at the time her U.S. citizenship was gone (that was an acceptable price for her). More than 20 years later, and after a couple of court cases, the U.S. changed the rules and now taking on another citizenship no longer means automatic revocation. But they also reinstated citizenship retroactively for all those so-called lost souls like my wife (didn't ask them if they wanted it back, of course). And of course, being a U.S. citizen means filing tax returns with the IRS.

When my wife discovered this she was livid -- made an appointment at the consulate and applied for a CLN -- Certificate of Lost Nationality. She got it a year ago, dated 1974. Unfortunately, the IRS won't likely recognize that and will ask her for tax returns. If that happens she'll tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine, and never venture across the border again.

Only two countries in the world levy income tax based on citizenship -- US and Eritrea. Everyone else does it based on residence. My wife hasn't lived in the U.S. for 45 years and she was outraged at the prospect of filing tax returns to a country she's had nothing to do with for all those years.
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:09 am

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 3):


The Swiss are cruel and heartless people. They took Tina and gave us this...unfair! I guess she's taking on a new direction. Oh well, who needs a heart when a heart can be broken.

So we are stuck with Michelle 'crazy eyes' Bachman, my heart truly is broken Cf..
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seb146
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:51 am

We knew a year ago she was going to do this. Why is this just now a story? With her taxes, she now gets more people educated and more people living at a higher standard and everyone has health care. Oh, the horror! How dare she care for people! How dare she live better than where she grew up! How dare she live better than Mississippi after working!

[Edited 2013-11-16 23:53:11]
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PanHAM
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:12 am

[

Quoting sccutler (Reply 19):
One supposes that depends upon what you value in life experiences. Rather a broad brush...

She has answered that question or herself and we know the answer. With her money, she could live a good life in the US as well. Europe is safer and you don't even need 24 hour body guards and/or gated communities for that luxury.
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PHX787
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:42 am

Wasn't she a democrat or am I mistaking her for something?!
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luckyone
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Sun Nov 17, 2013 3:08 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 22):
How dare she live better than where she grew up! How dare she live better than Mississippi after working!

Not sure if you're joking, but she was born in Tennessee. She even wrote a song about it called "Nutbush City Limits."
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:45 pm

If she lives in Switzerland, one point is taxation. I don't know how it works exactly, but I've read that the US can tax its citizen even abroad. So she can renounce her citizenship... and...

...foreigners who live in Switzerland can choose to pay taxes like everybody else, or they can choose to be taxed based on their living expenses - if they do not earn money in Switzerland.

The general sum of taxes to be paid is five times the yearly rent of the apartment he or she lives in. This might be more expensive than to be taxed based on income and wealth, but the advantage is that she can keep her income and wealth situation completely secret. No IRS will ever know how much she'll earn or possess.

Multi-billionaire Ingvar Kamprad, founder of IKEA, chose to be taxed in this manner - and he lives in a quite modest apartment near Geneva.


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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:11 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 1):

I thought Swiss citizenship was famous for being virtually impossible to get ?

Its hard but not impossible. Its an interesting process from what I read. I can't blame her, the US has some unfavorable double taxation for expatriates that the UK doesn't have on its citizens. Aside from money though, it sounds like shes found a new home in Switzerland. I can't blame her, the culture and quality of life there are quite different from the US.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:50 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 27):
Its an interesting process from what I read.

Oh yes.

In Switzerland, you get three citizenships: The federal, the cantonal and the municipal. You need to get all three of them to be naturalized.

The municipal one is generally the hardest to get. You have to live in the same municipality from two to twelve years (depending on the municipality - the more conservative regions of Switzerland require longer stays without interruptions). You have to prove you are acquainted with the local customs, and that you have taken up a relationship with the inhabitants.

The cantonal citizenship and the federal ones are easiest to get. In general, they will look upon your past criminal offenses. The federal government requires you to stay for 12 years in Switzerland (between age 10 and 20, the years count doubly), and at the time of application, at least 3 out of the last 5 years have to be spent in Switzerland.

And the citizens are against giving out citizenships more easily. Despite the already quite hard requirements. So better marry a Swissman or a Swisswoman.

You can also marry an EU citizen, or get a EU citizenship. As a citizen of a EU country, you have a right to stay in Switzerland, and the work permit is included. You just have to pass the democracy stuff.  



David
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Viscount724
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:05 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 26):
...foreigners who live in Switzerland can choose to pay taxes like everybody else, or they can choose to be taxed based on their living expenses - if they do not earn money in Switzerland.

If not mistaken, the canton of Zurich, where Tina Turner lives, eliminated the "living expenses" tax scheme for wealthy foreigners a year or so ago, so she must now be taxable like any other resident. It's also not offered in various other cantons.

I recall reading where quite a few wealthy foreigners moved away from Zurich after they eliminated that option.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:12 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):

Awww, right! My canton has also abolished this Pauschalbesteuerung, so I should know...  


David
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NoUFO
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
one thing she liked about Europe (she used to live in Cologne as well for a while) is that she could e.g. go shopping in town and the people would respect her privacy.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
Europe is safer and you don't even need 24 hour body guards and/or gated communities for that luxury.

I have always been under the impression that it was the other way around. Celebs living in the U.S. and particularly in L.A. or NYC are feeling less bothered by fans than their European colleagues do.
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LONGisland89
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:19 pm

I have my radio on in the background and I kid you not "What's love got to do with it?" just came on.
 
Superfly
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:46 am

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 18):
Good for her! I've always found her to be very classy & a very good entertainer.

  
Kudos to Anna Mae Bullock (Tina Turner).

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 26):
If she lives in Switzerland, one point is taxation. I don't know how it works exactly, but I've read that the US can tax its citizen even abroad. So she can renounce her citizenship... and...

We can and it's absolutely criminal that our government does this. Expats aren't happy about this at all. I know of several American's that have given up their citizenship and taken on citizenship of another country. It's not an easy process and you have to be very wealthy to pull that off.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 20):
My U.S.-born wife became a Canadian citizen in 1974 and was told at the time her U.S. citizenship was gone (that was an acceptable price for her). More than 20 years later, and after a couple of court cases, the U.S. changed the rules and now taking on another citizenship no longer means automatic revocation. But they also reinstated citizenship retroactively for all those so-called lost souls like my wife (didn't ask them if they wanted it back, of course). And of course, being a U.S. citizen means filing tax returns with the IRS.

When my wife discovered this she was livid -- made an appointment at the consulate and applied for a CLN -- Certificate of Lost Nationality. She got it a year ago, dated 1974. Unfortunately, the IRS won't likely recognize that and will ask her for tax returns. If that happens she'll tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine, and never venture across the border again.

I remember you telling us that.
That is a horror story!
I guess the only way she can visit the US is to sneak across the US/Mexico boarder.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 20):
Only two countries in the world levy income tax based on citizenship -- US and Eritrea. Everyone else does it based on residence.

I read that the Soviet Union and Apartheid era South Africa did the same.
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PanHAM
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:35 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 31):

I have always been under the impression that it was the other way around. Celebs living in the U.S. and particularly in L.A. or NYC are feeling less bothered by fans than their European colleagues do.

I wasn't talking about fans but the general situation. I bet that without that wig she looks different and she's not bothered in her place by fans either.

NY and LA is true but you better stay in your posh part of town. We are getting "no go" areas here as well but so far it is pretty much safe for anyone except for Police in certain parts of Berlin which are ex-terroitorial claims of Arab Family gangs.

Besides, that body guard BS is more than often unnecessary and just an ego matter.
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NoUFO
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:15 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 34):
which are ex-terroitorial claims of Arab Family gangs.

With "claim" being the keyword. I spent 13 years living in Berlin, nearly 4 of which in a not so pretty neighborhood, Neukölln, which is often refered to as one of those areas where police were powerless. But in fact they weren't, it is all a matter of man power - and time. Police are very much willing to kick in your door at 3am, and they don't bring only 3 officers.

A policeman's job can indeed be dangerous, but those talks about no-go areas seem to be calls for more policemen and better equipment first and foremost.

That said, I liked the other 8 years in the Prenzlauer Berg area a lot better where police had to deal with only 3 things: Graffiti, bicycle theft and complaints due to noise at night.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 34):
Besides, that body guard BS is more than often unnecessary and just an ego matter.

Indeed! Coincidentally I recently stumbled over a picture of a c-grade "celeb" (ever heard of a crooner called Sandy Rose? No?) framed by 2 bodyguards! When I was living in Berlin - Prenzlauer Berg, I saw some truly famous heads (famous to Germans at least) now and then, and none of whom had bodyguards.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:21 am

The few times I have met celebs (or wannabe celebs), I just ignored them and left them their privacy.
The one my girlfriend and myself are constantly runing into is Ronan Keating (about who´s music I don´t care at all and about whom I would have never known if she wouldn´t have told me about him). He lives in the Irish smalltown of Malahide north of Dublin, Ireland. My girlfriend lives in this area as well and we regularly go to Malahide for shopping or eating out. Somehow we keep on bumping into this guy (though we never talk to him or approach him in any way intentionally), that we already call him "our stalker" as a joke.
Last time my girlfriend parked her small Toyota beside a new Landrover Defender, latest model, in a publc carpark. Since I drive a Defender myself, but a much older version, I was curious about it´s interior, so I looked in through the window, and guess who comes around the back with the keys in his hands and a pissed off face? I didn´t know that it was his car, but he must have though that we would be stalking him.

Over here the locals can also be very protective towards their local celebs, I have heard about this e.g. about the British
prince William and family, who live in a small village in Wales. Journalists, stalkers and paparazzi get firmly turned away when they ask for directions.

Most people over here, if they would e.g. recognise Tina Turner in the supermarket or the street, would simply ignore her and leave her to mind her own business.
From what I have read, Tina Turner always tried to raise her kids (who are obviously adults now) as normally as possible.

As for the American tax system, according to a German-American friend, who lives here in Germany, it is a pain in the @rse. While her income is well below the threshold for which she would have to pay tax in the US as well, she hates to compile the additional paperwork, added to her German tax return, which she has to do as well.

Jan
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Superfly
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:53 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 35):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 34):
Besides, that body guard BS is more than often unnecessary and just an ego matter.

Indeed! Coincidentally I recently stumbled over a picture of a c-grade "celeb" (ever heard of a crooner called Sandy Rose? No?) framed by 2 bodyguards! When I was living in Berlin - Prenzlauer Berg, I saw some truly famous heads (famous to Germans at least) now and then, and none of whom had bodyguards.

  


I remember meeting Todd Bridges (Willis from Different Strokes) at my middle school in 1987. He had already been forgotten about by then but he brought 3 bodyguards with him to fight off those 7th graders in case they got out of hand.
In 1998, I met fmr. President Jimmy Carter at a book signing at a bookstore in San Francisco. He had no bodyguards.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 36):
As for the American tax system, according to a German-American friend, who lives here in Germany, it is a pain in the @rse. While her income is well below the threshold for which she would have to pay tax in the US as well, she hates to compile the additional paperwork, added to her German tax return, which she has to do as well.

It is a terrible thing and Obama made it worse by signing FATCA. Now it also places burdens on the banks that have American customers worldwide.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:34 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 35):
With "claim" being the keyword. I spent 13 years living in Berlin, nearly 4 of which in a not so pretty neighborhood, Neukölln, which is often refered to as one of those areas where police were powerless. But in fact they weren't, it is all a matter of man power - and time. Police are very much willing to kick in your door at 3am, and they don't bring only 3 officers.

A policeman's job can indeed be dangerous, but those talks about no-go areas seem to be calls for more policemen and better equipment first and foremost.

Exactly. I used to live in Neukölln as well (near Hermannstrasse, plus I grew up in Gropiusstadt, a highrise apartment block area built in the 1960s-1970s, which became notorious for drug dealing in the 1970s. My parents moved away from there when I was 10 or 11 years old, but Christiane F., the famous junkie, who published her life story as a teenage heroin addict and prostitute in "Wir Kinder vom Bahnhof Zoo", was most likely a neighbour of ours (though she is a few years older than me. She probably hung around with the teenagers, while I played with the children).

What is more needed in district like Neukölln is the oldfashioned neighbourhood police officer on the beat, who knows everybody and through personality gets respected, even by the "bad boys". But this is expensive (more manpower required). Mobile unit, just going to a place oin demand, are cheaper.

Jan
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JJJ
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RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:07 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
I guess the only way she can visit the US is to sneak across the US/Mexico boarder.

Or just use her Canadian passport to get through.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:15 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 39):
Or just use her Canadian passport to get through.

Arrow?

Quoting Arrow (Reply 20):
More than 20 years later, and after a couple of court cases, the U.S. changed the rules and now taking on another citizenship no longer means automatic revocation. But they also reinstated citizenship retroactively for all those so-called lost souls like my wife (didn't ask them if they wanted it back, of course). And of course, being a U.S. citizen means filing tax returns with the IRS.

When my wife discovered this she was livid -- made an appointment at the consulate and applied for a CLN -- Certificate of Lost Nationality. She got it a year ago, dated 1974. Unfortunately, the IRS won't likely recognize that and will ask her for tax returns. If that happens she'll tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine, and never venture across the border again.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:44 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 39):
Or just use her Canadian passport to get through.

Her Canadian passport says she was born in the US. US border guards used to hassle her over that because, by law, all Americans must enter the US with a US passport. She never had a US passport. There have been some horror stories of US-born Canadians just like my wife who were bullied by border guards into applying for a US passport. And of course as soon as you do that, you are cementing your status as a US citizen -- hello IRS. I know of one person, born in the US to Canadian parents and came home as an infant, who did that and found out too late that she's now a full-fledged American simply because she got the passport. She had no idea at the time about the tax implications, and has now spent mega-bucks on accountants to get IRS-compliant before she formally renounces. She is one very PO'd "accidental" American who now has nothing good to say about her birthplace. There are many, many examples of this kind of horror story out there.

Since my wife got the CLN, crossing the border has been pretty smooth (US border agents see that CLN on their computers). The problem will come when the IRS and customs/border computer systems are fully integrated (that work is apparently in progress), and at that point any IRS ruling or statement will be available to the customs/border guys. We are trying to stay on top of that because if the IRS launches one of its typical jihads against my wife, we sure don't want to find out about it at the border.

Interesting trivia note for anyone concerned about US border crossings: If you cross in your car, the US guards can do whatever they want to you because, by the time you are talking to them, you are firmly planted on US soil and only US law applies. If you get hassled by a US border guard at a pre-clearance Canadian airport, however, different rules apply. You are still on Canadian soil, and if the US guards want to detain you, they have to get the mounties to arrest you, then go through the complicated extradition process to get you on US soil. They will likely do that for a big time criminal, but it isn't likely they would do it for a tax dispute. I hope.

And yes, FATCA is coming. That's where the IRS strong arms Canadian banks (and other "foreign" banks) into sending detailed bank account info on any "US persons" it has as account holders. For my wife, that's probably the biggest value of the CLN -- it shows her Canadian bank she is no longer a US citizen. I sometimes wonder whether or not Tina's Swiss bankers told her they would terminate all her accounts if she didn't ditch the US citizenship -- they've done that to a lot of other US expats in Europe. Lots of horror stories there, too.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
smittyone
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:19 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
We can and it's absolutely criminal that our government does this. Expats aren't happy about this at all.

I can see why they aren't happy about it...but I wonder how many of these 'expats' would expect services/support from the local US Consulate or to be evacuated in the case of an emergency like other "US Citizens Living Abroad" often are.

If people want to cut the umbilical cord from the US I'm all for that, we should make it easy to do. But for people to live abroad but then expect to remain eligible at some future point to enjoy the privileges of a citizenship status that they aren't paying to support seems like wanting to "have their cake and eat it, too", doesn't it?
 
Arrow
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Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:02 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 42):
I can see why they aren't happy about it...but I wonder how many of these 'expats' would expect services/support from the local US Consulate or to be evacuated in the case of an emergency like other "US Citizens Living Abroad" often are.

They expect -- and get -- nothing. All those consular services are offered on a fee-for-service basis and those consulates often brag about how much money they pull in. It's beyond cost recovery. Evacuations? From France? Germany? Canada? Even those countries where evacuations might be an issue, they get a bill for that service, too.

So the real questions is -- if expats are expected to pay US taxes, what exactly do they get for it? Given that an expat living in France pays income (and lots of other) taxes to France, drives on French roads, pays French gasoline taxes, pays VAT on every purchase, sends kids to French schools, uses French health care, participates fully in the French economy -- what should they pay the U.S.?

There are about 7 million U.S. expats all over the globe, and most of them don't actually pay any US tax -- they just have to file tax returns and foreign bank account reports. That, unfortunately, is not in any way simple and ends up costing them thousands every year in accounting fees -- just to prove to the IRS they don't owe any money. And if they screw up, the fines are draconian. A mistake on a simple annual FBAR report can lead to a fine of 50% of the value of the account.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 42):
If people want to cut the umbilical cord from the US I'm all for that, we should make it easy to do.

Amen to that; and because of the impending application of FATCA, the renunciation stats have skyrocketed in the last couple of years. But the US now imposes an exit tax on any departing citizen with a net worth of $2 million or more. Unfortunately, that $2 million -- sounds pretty high doesn't it? -- includes things like the payout value of your company pension and of course your house. It doesn't take long for the average middle class guy to hit $2 million. When the Soviet Union tried to do this in the 60s, Congress passed sanctions against them for attempting to keep their citizens as prisoners. The USSR's exit tax was 10%, the US is 30%.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:03 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 42):
I wonder how many of these 'expats' would expect services/support from the local US Consulate or to be evacuated in the case of an emergency like other "US Citizens Living Abroad" often are.

What service? The US Consulate provides the same basic service as all other Western nation Consulates; UK, France, Germany, Japan, Australia, etc and none of those countries tax their people like this. I've found the US Consulate here in Thailand totally useless - not that I expect anything from them anyway.
I remember when we had the floods here in Thailand two years ago, they send out an email saying; 'Stay away from flood waters. Go home if you can'.
Gee such wonderful service.  
Quoting Arrow (Reply 41):
The problem will come when the IRS and customs/border computer systems are fully integrated (that work is apparently in progress), and at that point any IRS ruling or statement will be available to the customs/border guys. We are trying to stay on top of that because if the IRS launches one of its typical jihads against my wife, we sure don't want to find out about it at the border.

And yes, FATCA is coming. That's where the IRS strong arms Canadian banks (and other "foreign" banks) into sending detailed bank account info on any "US persons" it has as account holders. For my wife, that's probably the biggest value of the CLN -- it shows her Canadian bank she is no longer a US citizen. I sometimes wonder whether or not Tina's Swiss bankers told her they would terminate all her accounts if she didn't ditch the US citizenship -- they've done that to a lot of other US expats in Europe. Lots of horror stories there, too.

Terrifying and sick when you think about it. When Obama get's out on TV railing against the 'rich' people not paying their fair-share, he's talking about people such as myself, your wife and other expats living abroad. Most of us aren't rich but we're easy targets because your average low-information voter thinks all expats are rich living on permanent vacation. Tina Turner is certainly wealthy but she earned that money and is paying taxes where she lives. The US has already collected taxes from her album sales and concerts years ago. They need to leave Tina alone!
Perhaps the IRS should try to shake down Ike for some extra cash.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 24):
Wasn't she a democrat or am I mistaking her for something?!

She is classy enough to stay out of that cesspool.
Bring back the Concorde
 
smittyone
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
What service? The US Consulate provides the same basic service as all other Western nation Consulates; UK, France, Germany, Japan, Australia, etc and none of those countries tax their people like this. I've found the US Consulate here in Thailand totally useless - not that I expect anything from them anyway.
I remember when we had the floods here in Thailand two years ago, they send out an email saying; 'Stay away from flood waters. Go home if you can'.
Gee such wonderful service.

Haha, OK fair enough then. You can see my point though - if there was some substantial benefit provided to citizens living elsewhere then it would be fair to expect people to contribute...

Either way I do agree (especially in cases like that of the Canadian woman described in this thread) that the US gov't acts like an overly attached girlfriend when people try to leave.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13174
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:21 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
In 1998, I met fmr. President Jimmy Carter at a book signing at a bookstore in San Francisco. He had no bodyguards.

Now that I don't believe, US Presidents (until Bush the idiot) have a Secret Service detail until the day they kick the bucket, you probably just didn't see them.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 41):
I sometimes wonder whether or not Tina's Swiss bankers told her they would terminate all her accounts if she didn't ditch the US citizenship

It wouldn't surprise me if that's the main reason.

My cousins are half American, one was recently held in the US pending an investigation into her income and tax status, but apparently it's different if you've inherited citizenship from a parent rather than being unfortunate enough to be born there. A quick call the the NZ consulate in LA and bingo she was let out. Apparently it's a lot easier to renounce US citizenship if you weren't born there and only have one US citizen as a parent. I don't know how true that last statement is, it's just what she told me..
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:22 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 45):
if there was some substantial benefit provided to citizens

Non of us want it or expect it. Those that leave the country aren't expecting any sort of handouts. What they do is exactly what all other consulates do and that's totally fine. The 'services' provided by the consulate/embassy wasn't the reasoning behind Obama signing FATCA. It's about control.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 45):
the US gov't acts like an overly attached girlfriend when people try to leave.

We wish it was that simple.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:11 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46):
I don't know how true that last statement is, it's just what she told me..

As with most things about US citizenship and immigration and tax law, there is lots to interpret and nasty pitfalls for those who get it wrong.

Having a U.S.-born parent does not automatically bestow U.S. citizenship to someone born outside the US. The parent has to meet some minimum residency requirements to pass along the citizenship to his/her kids. For example, Ted Cruz has to prove his mother's eligibility before he can legally claim US citizenship (he was born in Calgary). It's odd that he still hasn't renounced his Canadian citizenship despite swearing he was going to do it. Wonder if maybe he actually isn't an American. Wouldn't that be a hoot? Although the thought of him as a Canadian turns my stomach.

There's also the issue of whether or not the out-of-country birth was registered at a consulate/embassy. If not, it's a little easier for a child to ditch the US part when he/she turns 18.

I'm alarmed that your cousin was held on a tax issue -- when did that happen? Can I assume she was born in NZ? Was she traveling on a US or NZ passport. If she was on an NZ passport, I'm surprised they even asked her about her citizenship status.

Is she the first example of someone caught by the merger of the IRS and customs computer data bases? If so, maybe our trips to Hawaii are over.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
Aeri28
Posts: 673
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2000 1:08 pm

RE: Tina Turner Gives Up U.S. Citizenship

Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:28 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46):
Now that I don't believe, US Presidents (until Bush the idiot) have a Secret Service detail until the day they kick the bucket, you probably just didn't see them.

So true, more than likely hidden or behind the scenes. Here's a youtube of Jimmy Carter walking down the aisle of a Delta Airlines flight, and you can clearly see his Secret Service man behind him...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmjj9vezIw4

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