Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46): US Presidents (until Bush the idiot) have a Secret Service detail until the day they kick the bucket, you probably just didn't see them.

I hope that was the case.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 48): I'm alarmed that your cousin was held on a tax issue -- when did that happen? Can I assume she was born in NZ? Was she traveling on a US or NZ passport. If she was on an NZ passport, I'm surprised they even asked her about her citizenship status.

I'd like to find out more about this. It would be shocking that a glitch in the IRS database could trigger an alarm to alert US Customs. The evils of this government has no limits.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 48): Although the thought of him as a Canadian turns my stomach.

Nah I think Justin Bieber is someone to be embarrassed about. How about we take Ted Cruz and you take Obama. Then you'll have this FATCA (tax) issue to worry about, not us.
Fair trade?

Quoting Arrow (Reply 48): I'm alarmed that your cousin was held on a tax issue -- when did that happen? Can I assume she was born in NZ? Was she traveling on a US or NZ passport. If she was on an NZ passport, I'm surprised they even asked her about her citizenship status.

It was about 2 years ago, she has both Kiwi and US passports, she was entering on her US passport as you are supposed to do as a US citizen, although she's never lived there. She was born in NZ, her dad is a US citizen, born, breed and did a tour in Vietnam, hard to get more American than that I think.

[Edited 2013-11-19 00:36:17]

Quoting Superfly (Reply 50): I hope that was the case.

Clinton is the last President to get a SS detail for life, Bush the idiot and all those after him get 10 years. So I give it about 4 years before someone kills him (Bush the idiot).

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44): Perhaps the IRS should try to shake down Ike for some extra cash.

Bit tough Sfly.



Ike departed the stage in 2007, he won't be on 'the view' anytime soon !

Quoting Max Q (Reply 53): Bit tough Sfly. Ike departed the stage in 2007, he won't be on 'the view' anytime soon !

Oooops! 
He was so irrelevant I didn't even know he passed away.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 52): Clinton is the last President to get a SS detail for life,

I was a bit taken back at how easy it was to get close to fmr President Carter and shake his hand. There were no metal detectors or anything. It was nothing like when I saw Nancy Reagan in 1987, Papa Bush in 1991 and Al Gore in 1994. Granted they were in office at that time I saw them. Any sick, twisted and deranged person (plenty homeless like that in San Francisco) could have walked in, stood in line and pulled out a knife and strike a fatal stab. Not sure how fast those undercover S.S. agents would be able to jump in. The old lady book store owner next to him couldn't be able to do anything.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 52): So I give it about 4 years before someone kills him (Bush the idiot).

Sounds like you wish for that to happen which is sick.
I don't like Dubya Bush either but I wouldn't wish death on him. Call him an "idiot" all you want but Senator Max Baucus and Congressman Charlie Rangel knew that Bush the "idiot" wouldn't sign this FATCA law.
This law was signed by President Obama on March 18, 2010.
He is the reason why your cousins were detained, not the "idiot".
I find this ironic since you had expressed support for Obama who signed this terrible law yet knocked Romney who would have repealed this law.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 54): Sounds like you wish for that to happen which is sick.

No I don't wish him dead, I'd like him to stand trial for war crimes along with all the other hawks in office during his time and rot in gaol for the rest of his life. But I do think someone will kill him, there are plenty of pissed off Iraqis out there who lost family and friends due to Bush's insane war and they have plenty of motive to do it.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 54): I find this ironic since you had expressed support for Obama who signed this terrible law yet knocked Romney who would have repealed this law.

But I don't care about this law, it doesn't effect me in the slightest. My cousin could be locked up and it still wouldn't cause me any grief, I'm not a US citizen, I would never consider becoming one or living in the US so FATCA isn't an issue for me. I don't think I've ever knocked Romney either, he just didn't get any airtime over here so I never formed an opinion on him.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 55): pissed off Iraqis

death by a 1,000 shoe slaps!

I guess it would be flip flops more then shoes

Not concerning Tina but reading about US expats and the way they are treated. It is not so thaqt US citizenship is for granted when Born in the US or to a US citizen overseas. many Kids Born to bi national parents are in Trouble when they do not follow the procedures and do the right paperwork at the right time. We had stories in the News where People who thought they are US citizens have been expelled to Germany, arriving at FRA without speaking a single word German and knowing nothing about the life here.

The City gives them all assistance including obtaining German citizenship if they can prove that one parent was German.

Reading some stories here it is amazing how the US treats their citizens. That was once a desirable citizenship, it no longer is.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 51): It was about 2 years ago, she has both Kiwi and US passports, she was entering on her US passport as you are supposed to do as a US citizen, although she's never lived there. She was born in NZ, her dad is a US citizen, born, breed and did a tour in Vietnam, hard to get more American than that I think.

Shows you just how insidious US tax policy really is. Here's a woman who has never lived in the U.S. and is American only because of her father's status. She has not earned a nickel (I'm assuming this) of US income, and she has dutifully paid her taxes in New Zealand where she lives and works. Yet Uncle Sam thinks she should file tax returns and possibly pay taxes to a country in which she has never lived. If she accedes to this and actually pays some tax (it will happen sooner or later) -- she is participating in a raid on the New Zealand economy by the IRS.

I'm curious -- after what happened to her does she still value the US passport? If it were me, I'd ditch it in a heartbeat -- but then I'm hardly a disinterested party given what I watched my wife go through.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 50): Nah I think Justin Bieber is someone to be embarrassed about. How about we take Ted Cruz and you take Obama.

Have I got a deal for you. We'll take Cruz off your hands (he'd be completely marginalized up here any way as soon as he opened his mouth on health care) and you can throw Obama in under "future considerations." You have to take Rob Ford and guarantee he'll never get closer than 100 km to the Canadian border.

If you want a good run down on what FATCA and the US citizenship-based tax policy is going to do for any US citizen who lives abroad, read this woman's horror story. The sad thing is, there are thousands of these stories out there.

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/upload...les/patricia_anderson_daddario.pdf

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46): Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):In 1998, I met fmr. President Jimmy Carter at a book signing at a bookstore in San Francisco. He had no bodyguards. Now that I don't believe, US Presidents (until Bush the idiot) have a Secret Service detail until the day they kick the bucket, you probably just didn't see them.

I was under the impression Carter turned down the USSS protection. Is that not the case? Just curious.

Quoting arrow (Reply 58): You have to take Rob Ford and guarantee he'll never get closer than 100 km to the Canadian border.

Throw in a few hookers and he can be the mayor of Washington, DC.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 57): Reading some stories here it is amazing how the US treats their citizens. That was once a desirable citizenship, it no longer is.

You must be joking. Despite all of its flaws (some of them pretty substantial) there are literally billions of people on this planet who would love to be a US citizen. Which takes nothing at all away from a lot of great places to live, it is just a fact.

[Edited 2013-11-19 14:41:08]

Quoting arrow (Reply 58): Have I got a deal for you. We'll take Cruz off your hands (he'd be completely marginalized up here any way as soon as he opened his mouth on health care) and you can throw Obama in under "future considerations." You have to take Rob Ford and guarantee he'll never get closer than 100 km to the Canadian border.

We want to keep Ted Cruz down here! Although FATCA was signed by Obama 8 months before Ted Cruz was elected Senator, he is a vocal opponent of this law and still is to this day. I know, I know, I know, you're getting your information about him through the filters of a biased media that doesn't like him anyway. That's Ok because his obligation is to represent his state of Texas.
Keep bashing him but he is actually on your side fighting for you're wife's freedom from our tyrannical IRS.

Quoting arrow (Reply 59): If you want a good run down on what FATCA and the US citizenship-based tax policy is going to do for any US citizen who lives abroad, read this woman's horror story. The sad thing is, there are thousands of these stories out there. http://waysandmeans.house.gov/upload...o.pdf

Thanks for posting that link. That made me sick to my stomach.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 43): There are about 7 million U.S. expats all over the globe, and most of them don't actually pay any US tax -- they just have to file tax returns and foreign bank account reports. That, unfortunately, is not in any way simple and ends up costing them thousands every year in accounting fees -- just to prove to the IRS they don't owe any money. And if they screw up, the fines are draconian. A mistake on a simple annual FBAR report can lead to a fine of 50% of the value of the account.

I missed this post earlier. I know a guy here in Bangkok that had to spend $50 per page to send notarized tax documents to the US. He had to send 14 pages...

Quoting Arrow (Reply 43): Amen to that; and because of the impending application of FATCA, the renunciation stats have skyrocketed in the last couple of years. But the US now imposes an exit tax on any departing citizen with a net worth of $2 million or more. Unfortunately, that $2 million -- sounds pretty high doesn't it? -- includes things like the payout value of your company pension and of course your house. It doesn't take long for the average middle class guy to hit $2 million. When the Soviet Union tried to do this in the 60s, Congress passed sanctions against them for attempting to keep their citizens as prisoners. The USSR's exit tax was 10%, the US is 30%.

So true. In fact, for the first time in US history, the number of Americans giving up citizenship has skyrocketed and each passing year exceeds the previous year.
We're losing a lot of smart business-minded people and that includes Tina Turner.
She is an American success story. She grew up poor in the segregated south. She rose to success because of her talents. No government handouts or anything. She has gone through a LOT in life and had so many odds stacked against her. Also worth considering, her career spanned 4 decades but didn't have that many hits yet managed to spend her money wisely. She made it happen. Now the government wants to punish her.
It's no wonder she turned down Oprah's solicitation to endorse Obama. Tina Turner begrudgingly went along with it after Caroline Kennedy asked her to do it.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 62): Despite all of its flaws (some of them pretty substantial) there are literally billions of people on this planet who would love to be a US citizen.

Yep, many of them criminal or just freeloaders. Many people in developing nations are seeing that the US isn't the place to immigrate to anymore. They now only see it as a place with great Universities and then go back to their home country and have a fulfilling career and high paying job. As a result, their economies are growing. Some have dual citizenship. In fact, Thailand and many other developing nations are not going to 'rat out' their people to Obama's IRS - even if they have dual citizenship. Same thing in Malaysia, The Philippines, Indonesia, China, India, Mexico, Brazil, etc.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 60): I was under the impression Carter turned down the USSS protection. Is that not the case? Just curious.

According to Wikipedia Richard Nixon relinquished his Secret Service protection in 1985, the only president to do so.
Obama signed legislation back in January of this year reinstating lifetime Secret Service protection for himself, George W. Bush, and all subsequent presidents. Therefore Kiwirob's comment about Bush the "idiot" getting killed in 10 years (his words) is unlikely to happen.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 55): I'd like him to stand trial for war crimes along with all the other hawks in office during his time and rot in gaol for the rest of his life. But I do think someone will kill him, there are plenty of pissed off Iraqis out there who lost family and friends due to Bush's insane war and they have plenty of motive to do it.

I guess you feel the same about the Nobel Peace Price winner Barack Obama because of his drone strikes that have killed many families. Right?

[Edited 2013-11-20 02:57:42]

Quoting Superfly (Reply 63): I guess you feel the same about the Nobel Peace Price winner Barack Obama because of his drone strikes that have killed many families. Right?

Obama and Al Gore were two of the most ridiculous Nobel Peace Prize winners ever and IMO the Prize is no longer valid.

As for drone strikes I'm pretty sure they would have happened regardless of who was sitting in the Oval Office.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 63): Yep, many of them criminal or just freeloaders.

Do you really believe that a meaningful proportion of the people who desire US citizenship are criminals and freeloaders?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 63): They now only see it as a place with great Universities and then go back to their home country and have a fulfilling career and high paying job.

This revolving door phenomenon has always been the case for those with the means to come here for their college education. That is NOT the demographic I was talking about in reply to PanHAM.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 63): In fact, Thailand and many other developing nations are not going to 'rat out' their people to Obama's IRS - even if they have dual citizenship. Same thing in Malaysia, The Philippines, Indonesia, China, India, Mexico, Brazil, etc.

I don't blame them there...FATCA is a poorly conceived law. Which I suppose would never have gotten any traction at all if people weren't constantly trying to illegally avoid paying taxes to begin with.

**************
This forum makes me laugh sometimes...like it can't decide whether it's an echo chamber for Euro supremacist Obama fans to make proclamations about how shit the US is compared to (insert name of country) because we're not liberal enough, or for anti-Obama conspiracy theorists to pin every possible negative phenomenon in the United States to the current President personally.

In the case of FATCA at least both factions seem to agree. If that's not progress then I don't know what is.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 63): She is an American success story. She grew up poor in the segregated south. She rose to success because of her talents. No government handouts or anything. She has gone through a LOT in life and had so many odds stacked against her. Also worth considering, her career spanned 4 decades but didn't have that many hits yet managed to spend her money wisely. She made it happen. Now the government wants to punish her. It's no wonder she turned down Oprah's solicitation to endorse Obama. Tina Turner begrudgingly went along with it after Caroline Kennedy asked her to do it.

I did not find anyting as sinister as you proclaimed in your quote above, but rather articles stating that she had lived in Europe as her main home for several decades and was simply 'removed' from American politcs.

Quote: What’s politics got to do with it? Politically, Turner is a bit of an outsider. She immigrated to Europe in her mid-50s and has been living there–in Zurich, Cologne, and on the French Riviera–ever since. She says that living in Europe is a more “comfortable” life for black people even though her skin color is a secondary concern for Turner. I’ve never bothered about my color. I never had that thing about being black.5 There’s more evidence of this because of the fact that when Oprah tried to convince Turner to endorse Barack Obama in the 2008 elections, Turner didn’t seem to care. But when Caroline Kennedy endorsed Obama, Turner decided to do the same. Though removed from America and American politics, more focused on Buddhism and enlightenment, there was a time when Turner was a part of the political conversation. In 1972, she endorsed Democratic presidential candidate John McGovern.7 Though, honestly, that’s about it. Turner is, by default, a Democrat. But her stance on many social or political issues remain a mystery–or she doesn’t take a stance. Perhaps enlightenment leaves no room for worldly concerns.

Not sure what your comments suggest. If anything, your comment would suggest a snub to Oprah and not Obama, so Im not sure what Obama has to do with that.. If you are suggesting a snub to Obama, please provide some link that Ms Tuner somehow snubbed Obama, otherwise it is simply open to interpretation and I interpret it as non chalance about what goes on in the US.

This really is a non issue, not sure why so many posts. She was born and raised in the US. She is an American success story to be sure. An American icon. Nothing will ever change that. She was awarded the Kennedy Center Honors several years back. Her history is here, her children are here, but grown up and living their own lives. Her mom and sister are gone. She has simply lived with her boyfriend of 27 years in Europe and finally decided to get married. She has built a life in Switzerland, she is now officially married. She is aging and probably pretty much retired. Her legacy will continue on. She may have achieved Swiss citizenship, but she will never be referred to as "International Swiss Recording Artist Tina Turner" lol

People, there are many who do this all the time, moved to a foreign country, become citizens, and many who come here and become citizens. If you have the money to live anywhere, and have built a home somewhere, and if it requires you to relinguish one citienship to become another, then I don't see an issue if it is her/someones best interest.

She still da girl from Nutbush Tennesse tho!!

case closed as far as I'm concerned.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 66): She has simply lived with her boyfriend of 27 years in Europe and finally decided to get married.

It is as simple as this...though people have alternately repurposed it to be an indictment of the quality of life in the United States as compared to Europe and yet another indication that President Obama and the IRS are destroying the country.

Both of which may well be true but the linkage between them and an aging pop star's choice of retirement home in this particular case is pretty specious.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 67): It is as simple as this...though people have alternately repurposed it to be an indictment of the quality of life in the United States as compared to Europe and yet another indication that President Obama and the IRS are destroying the country.

My take on this is fairly simple. Currently, there are about 7 million US expats all over the world. For the most part, they have been unpaid ambassadors for the U.S., singing the country's praises, debunking the mostly-negative myths about the place, and providing a US perspective where there would otherwise be none. Every nation benefits from this kind of expat, and the Germans in particular encourage their citizens to go to other countries and be unofficial salesmen.

But the US decision (FATCA was passed in 2010) to hound its expats through its archaic (and unique) tax code and make their lives absolutely miserable is turning that upside down. Those 7 million ambassadors have been turned into 7 million very PO'd, almost anti-American malcontents who are prepared to either bad mouth the US at every opportunity, or simply remain silent while others do the bad mouthing. No other nation in the world (well, maybe Eritrea) treats its expats like this, and no other nation in the world thinks it should be able to tax them while they are offshore. How this can be good for America is beyond me.

If FATCA stands (and there is absolutely no evidence that anyone in power wants it repealed), that 7 million strong expat community will disappear within 5 years. They will either move back home, or they will renounce their citizenship. But it's even worse than that -- one of FATCA's hidden treasures is a stipulation that any global corporation that has a US citizen with a 10% or higher investment stake, or a US citizen employee with signing authority, must report all its accounts and revenues to the IRS --- regardless of whether it has any US interests. Remember Eduardo Saverin, the Facebook guy? That's why he ditched his US citizenship -- he saw himself becoming an investment pariah in every country except the U.S.

There is a glimmer of hope. The U.S. needs 193 counties to agree to implement FATCA through an Intergovernmental agreement. With just over six months to full implementation, the US has signed up 10 of 193. Granted, there are some significant players who have agreed to get on board, but there are equally significant players who have not -- and if FATCA is going to work, the US needs all of them. So, fingers crossed -- it might die from inattention.

By the way -- this is all supposed to get after those pesky tax havens like the Cayman Islands where rich Americans stash their loot. Ironically, the world's biggest corporate tax havens are Delaware and Nevada -- and FATCA does nothing about them.

[Edited 2013-11-20 08:40:17]

It would be interesting to see what other high profile ex pats like Madonna, Gwyneth Paltrow, Johnny Depp........are planning on doing. Paltrow is also a British Citizen. I would surprise me if a lot of them dump US citizenship, especially if they don't intend to move back.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 65): FATCA is a poorly conceived law.

  
Agreed!

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 65): Which I suppose would never have gotten any traction at all if people weren't constantly trying to illegally avoid paying taxes to begin with.

Wrong.
The filthy rich that this law claims to go after can afford the exit tax and/or claim citizenship in another country.
The CBO estimated that if all of these rich fat cats that Obama had vilified had paid their 'fair-share' would only be enough money to keep the government running for 9 days.
So how about the other 356 days?

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 65): This forum makes me laugh sometimes...like it can't decide whether it's an echo chamber for Euro supremacist Obama fans to make proclamations about how shit the US is compared to (insert name of country) because we're not liberal enough, or for anti-Obama conspiracy theorists to pin every possible negative phenomenon in the United States to the current President personally.

While you're laughing, I hope your at least learning something. Glad I was at least able to educate you a bit on this law.

Quoting arrow (Reply 68): My take on this is fairly simple. Currently, there are about 7 million US expats all over the world. For the most part, they have been unpaid ambassadors for the U.S., singing the country's praises, debunking the mostly-negative myths about the place, and providing a US perspective where there would otherwise be none. Every nation benefits from this kind of expat, and the Germans in particular encourage their citizens to go to other countries and be unofficial salesmen.

        
Amen to that!

Quoting arrow (Reply 68): But the US decision (FATCA was passed in 2010) to hound its expats thro

  
Don't blame "the US". Blame the man who signed it in to law. Your average low-information voter in the US (on both sides) don't even know about this law. The authors of this bill (both Democrats) knew Bush the "idiot" wouldn't sign it and were waiting for their puppet (Obama or Hillary) to sign this in to law.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 70): Don't blame "the US". Blame the man who signed it in to law. Your average low-information voter in the US (on both sides) don't even know about this law. The authors of this bill (both Democrats) knew Bush the "idiot" wouldn't sign it and were waiting for their puppet (Obama or Hillary) to sign this in to law.

OK -- I agree with you on that. It's guys like Carl Levin and Chuck Schumer and a host of other Dems who pushed this through. In what to me is a searing indictment of the U.S. legislative process, FATCA was a last-minute add-on to the HIRE Act (supposedly to to pay for it) and it went through in less than 15 minutes with no debate.

And yes, Obama could have vetoed it and sent it back. What do you want to bet that he, too, never read FATCA or saw any honest analysis of what it would do.

But when you say "don't blame the U.S.," well, unfortunately, when something becomes a law, it is the U.S. Treasury and the IRS are now mandated to implement this and they have embraced it enthusiastically. There have been a few "Repeal FATCA" efforts -- most notably from Rand Paul -- but they got no traction at all. Instead, there are now multiple additional bills in the works that would make life for expats even more difficult. One bill that keeps showing up (and with your insane "rider" system, it's only a matter of time before it gets tacked on to something big) would remove from expats the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion (FEIE).

FEIE is designed to make sure Americans working overseas don't get hit with double taxation on their income -- they can "deduct" up to $97K of earned income from their US tax return. If the bozos who want that removed are successful, it means an American in France making $90K a year will end up paying both French AND US income tax on his/her entire salary. I have a friend here who decided to maintain her US status and has been filing annual returns because with the FEIE "I don't owe the US anything." I've already warned her that when the FEIE is removed, she'll be scrambling. She doesn't believe they'll do it, but you know what? They did it 30 years ago! And it took two years to undo after a shitstorm of protest from abroad hit them.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 69): It would be interesting to see what other high profile ex pats like Madonna, Gwyneth Paltrow, Johnny Depp........are planning on doing.

Madonna moved back to the States after her divorce from Guy Ritchie. She bought a complex of townhouse on the Upper East Side for somewhere around $30-40 million and has sold several of her properties in Los Angeles and London as well as a smaller apartment on Central Park West.

Quoting arrow (Reply 71): And yes, Obama could have vetoed it and sent it back. What do you want to bet that he, too, never read FATCA or saw any honest analysis of what it would do.

True but Obama's anti-rich rhetoric is consistent with the provisions of FATCA.
This would mean that Bush the "idiot" actually read laws he signed. Charlie Rangel, Max Baccus as well as Carl Levin & Schumer knew that Bush the "idiot" would veto it.

Quoting arrow (Reply 71): There have been a few "Repeal FATCA" efforts -- most notably from Rand Paul -- but they got no traction at all.

Ted Cruz is also an opponent of this law. Looks like these Tea Party types aren't so bad after-all...

Quoting arrow (Reply 71): One bill that keeps showing up (and with your insane "rider" system, it's only a matter of time before it gets tacked on to something big) would remove from expats the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion (FEIE).

My goodness. The evils of my government has no limits.

Quoting arrow (Reply 71): They did it 30 years ago! And it took two years to undo after a shitstorm of protest from abroad hit them.

I doubt expats today are as relevant or as influential as 30 years ago. With the influx of illegals getting rewarded with citizenship, Democrats can just appeal to these voters instead as well as all the bleeding-hearts they've always had. Hence why so many successful Americans have given up their citizenship. The US is headed towards a statist authoritarian government with absolute control over it's people. People are willingly voting this way because they're so excited about the idea of electing the first black, first female, first gay, first (fill in the blank candidate) to distract voters from the real issues. That is how elections are won now.
These successful expats don't see an end in sight to this nonsense and have chosen to give up their natural born citizenship. At least 30 years ago, Reagan was in the White House and he had the Senate as well as enough level-headed Democrats on his side. There is nothing on the horizon to indicate a swing back to the center. America is going FORWARD over the cliff.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 72): Madonna moved back to the States after her divorce from Guy Ritchie.

Can she take up citizenship in Cameroon? The country of her adoptive son?

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 66): I did not find anyting as sinister as you proclaimed in your quote above, but rather articles stating that she had lived in Europe as her main home for several decades and was simply 'removed' from American politcs. If anything, your comment would suggest a snub to Oprah and not Obama,

True but Oprah is Barack's BFF...
Regardless of how long Tina Turner has been Swiss, there are many Europeans that are always spouting off about American politics and they're further removed than Tina Turner.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 66): She was born and raised in the US. She is an American success story to be sure. An American icon. Nothing will ever change that. she will never be referred to as "International Swiss Recording Artist Tina Turner" lol

  
So true!
That award belongs to Andreas Vollenweider.  
It's sad that our government's over-reach has forced such a wonderful person as Tina Turner to give up her citizenship.
Obama and his party has turned us expats in to the Boogeymen - we are all evil, rich, greedy bastards with horns on are head responsible for the huge deficit.   
The reality is that us 7 million are ordinary people from different walk's of life - some more successful than others.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 66): not sure why so many posts. and if it requires you to relinguish one citienship to become another, then I don't see an issue if it is her/someones best interest.

Perhaps you've answered your own question. If you read the multiple post, particularly Arrow's post then you would understand why this is thread is getting a lot of reply's. You're in the US and this topic isn't on most people's radar but it's certainly a hot topic among us expats worldwide of all political stripes.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 72): Madonna moved back to the States after her divorce from Guy Ritchie.

Nope she just moved back to the UK a few month ago, likes it better there, feels it's a safer environment for her family, read this in a newspaper a few months back at the airport. Besides a couple of her adopted kids are UK citizens as they were also adopted by Richie.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 62): You must be joking. Despite all of its flaws

From a European point of view y statement is correct. For People form third world countries it might be different.

FATCA is somehting like a Berlin Wall and internal German border. It is actually taking the freedom of choice from the US citizen. The freedom of choice where they want to live and where they want to pay their taxes.

East Germans could flee their part of Germany and had instant citizenship in the West. For Americans it is more difficult to shed their citizenship as we have learned in this thread.

The US is putting itself almost on the same level as third world countries like Iran who do not release their People out if citizenship.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 73): True but Oprah is Barack's BFF... Regardless of how long Tina Turner has been Swiss, there are many Europeans that are always spouting off about American politics and they're further removed than Tina Turner.

I still do not get your point about Oprah and Obama. This has nothing to do with Obama and her liking nor disliking him. Obviously if she finally 'endorsed' him, she is in his camp...??? I'm sure Tina Turner has a mind of her own and can decide who she chooses. I am truly scratching my head over this.

re: europeans: That's thier perogative. they can discuss American politics all they like. I am on a UK board that constantly spouts off about US politics. Not sure how that affects anything. Maybe Tina is un political. There is no law saying an American has to be involved in politics. You and I do not know anything about her except what we read.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 73): It's sad that our government's over-reach has forced such a wonderful person as Tina Turner to give up her citizenship.

If the reason is for tax purposes, then so be it. It is what it is. As others have said, she has built a life in Switzerland for almost 30 years. If she does not want to contribute financially to the US via taxes, she can afford and has the luxury to achieve citizenship elsewhere.

I read also in an article she did with Oprah recently after her wedding:

Quote: Oprah starts with the topic of the moment: Tina Turner and Erwin Bach’s wedding. And the obvious question: Why at 73 did she feel the need to get married? “I started consolidating. I got rid of the house in France, property in America. Everything that was costly, I got rid of.” Not forgetting that “if something would happen in life, Erwin would have no say.” Tina Turner weddingAnd of course, there was also something else to taking in account that Tina didn’t think of at first, if something happens to Erwin, she won’t get his money…

So obviously considering her new husband with zero ties to the US was a consideration. She is in the twilight of her life. She just wants to live out peacefully and stress free. She can still come and go to the US as she pleases.

I have loved Tina Turner for decades, but I do not see a loss in this. Does not change her past/her history.

I am sure there are many who still miss the Ike and Tina Revue , but times change.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 73): Perhaps you've answered your own question. If you read the multiple post, particularly Arrow's post then you would understand why this is thread is getting a lot of reply's. You're in the US and this topic isn't on most people's radar but it's certainly a hot topic among us expats worldwide of all political stripes.

Does not affect me in the slightest. But like a Euroepan who discusses American poltics, an American non expat can discuss expat issues.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 74): Nope she just moved back to the UK a few month ago, likes it better there, feels it's a safer environment for her family, read this in a newspaper a few months back at the airport. Besides a couple of her adopted kids are UK citizens as they were also adopted by Richie.

Sounds made up. I see nothing current that implies she returned to the UK. Articles from 2010 suggesting she was considering it perhaps, but nothing recent. Can you provide some linkage? All articles I've searched shows her and daughter Lourdes and Rocco living in NY with her other 2 adopted children (god how do I know these names lol).

Even an article dated Nov 4, 2013 talks about how Lourdes just got a role in her New York high school s production of Grease. Madonna would not leave her daugher in NY. Son Rocco is Guy Richies son. Lourdes was born in the US to an American father who is still in her life.

I think a lot of you reply with 'emotion' or 'feeling' instead of facts. These threads always seem to veer off in a odd direction with "I read somewhere", but considering many threads in the aviation section are "I met a grandaughter of a pilots sister who told me..." then it seems apropos.

[Edited 2013-11-21 01:43:46]

[Edited 2013-11-21 01:55:11]

[Edited 2013-11-21 02:03:13]

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 75): From a European point of view my statement is correct.

It has been made painfully clear on here time and again that Europe is superior to the United States.

[Edited 2013-11-21 04:29:15 by Smittyone]

Quoting Superfly (Reply 73): Can she take up citizenship in Cameroon? The country of her adoptive son?

Her adopted kids are actually from Malawi. As for their citizenship rules I have no clue.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 74): Nope she just moved back to the UK a few month ago, likes it better there, feels it's a safer environment for her family, read this in a newspaper a few months back at the airport. Besides a couple of her adopted kids are UK citizens as they were also adopted by Richie.

A quick google search shows that the only source for this is Perez Hilton and the National Examiner, dated 2010. More recently she has stated that she felt like an outsider in London (ie. this year). Madonna has two adopted children, only one of whom was adopted with Ritchie. As an American citizen her children are also American.

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 6): Not exactly. It can also make it easier should one ever want to "get it back" as it were

That's probably true.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 19): One supposes that depends upon what you value in life experiences. Rather a broad brush...

What life experience can you have living in the US that you can't living in Switzerland?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 52): Clinton is the last President to get a SS detail for life, Bush the idiot and all those after him get 10 years. So I give it about 4 years before someone kills him (Bush the idiot).

That law was changed back.

Quoting arrow (Reply 58): Shows you just how insidious US tax policy really is.

The sad thing about our insidious tax policy is that we get so little for what we pay. No health care (even with the ACA), poor public transport in much of the country and crumbling infrastructure.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 76): I still do not get your point about Oprah and Obama. This has nothing to do with Obama and her liking nor disliking him. Obviously if she finally 'endorsed' him, she is in his camp...???

Has nothing to do with him directly. It's just interesting that she is giving up citizenship because of a bad law he signed.
I was in Obama's camp too back in 2008...
..but please, by all means keep scratching your head.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 76): She is in the twilight of her life. She just wants to live out peacefully and stress free.

Just like everyone else. The IRS was obviously a hindrance to that and thus gave up her citizenship.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 79): What life experience can you have living in the US that you can't living in Switzerland?

We can go to the beach.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 79): The sad thing about our insidious tax policy is that we get so little for what we pay. No health care (even with the ACA), poor public transport in much of the country and crumbling infrastructure.

...and terrible public schools.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 80): We can go to the beach.

So can they.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 81): So can they.

Not in Switzerland.

Lake Geneva is nothing is compared to ours.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 41): If you get hassled by a US border guard at a pre-clearance Canadian airport, however, different rules apply.

Yeah, they have to pick up the phone to make sure someone meets you at the end of the flight...

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 49): you can clearly see his Secret Service man behind him.

And another one in front. Ten years ago, he was already walking around DC with just one or two agents along.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 63): That's Ok because his obligation is to represent his state of Texas.

What makes you think all of Texas voted for him? If we can trade him for something better (heck, even Celine Dion would be better), let Canada have him!

Quoting arrow (Reply 68): No other nation in the world (well, maybe Eritrea) treats its expats like this, and no other nation in the world thinks it should be able to tax them while they are offshore. How this can be good for America is beyond me.

Mexico expects its fair share of its citizens' estate upon their death wherever they may be in the world.
Belgian citizens residing overseas who register with the nearest consulate become subject to mandatory participation in national elections in Belgium. If they choose to vote by mail, their ballot will be mailed out 12 calendar days before election day and must be returned no later than election day, whether they live in France or Australia.
The US may be the only one trying to tax its citizens abroad, but it isn't by far the only one trying to impose ludicrous rules.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 83): What makes you think all of Texas voted for him?

What makes you think I think that?
He was elected by a majority of the voters in his state. That's how it works with every Senate elections.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 82): Not in Switzerland. Lake Geneva is nothing is compared to ours.

1) The Zuerisee is quite nice in the summer

2) Who said they have to go to a beach in Switzerland. Read my answer more carefully. Plus, there are plenty of people in the US who are much farther from a beach than anyone in Switzerland.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 84): He was elected by a majority of the voters in his state.

A majority of those who voted, not necessarily a majority of voters.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 85): A majority of those who voted, not necessarily a majority of voters.

Doesn't matter, he was elected Senator from his state - get over it.  

Quoting N1120A (Reply 85): Read my answer more carefully. The sad thing about our insidious tax policy is that we get so little for what we pay.

On that we can agree on. That said, we (expats) don't expect anything from our government living abroad
Heck even Ambassador Christopher Stevens couldn't get help from the government when he needed it most - and he was a government employee...

Quoting Superfly (Reply 82): Lake Geneva is nothing is compared to ours.

Lakes also have beaches.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 83): Belgian citizens residing overseas who register with the nearest consulate become subject to mandatory participation in national elections in Belgium.

Who register is the key word here, if they don't register they don't need to vote. Besides mandatory voting is a good idea IMO, the Australians also agree with me.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 83): The US may be the only one trying to tax its citizens abroad, but it isn't by far the only one trying to impose ludicrous rules.

Yeah -- but you have to admit the U.S. is in a league of its own on this topic. Have you given any thought to what might happen if other countries adopted mirror-image citizenship-based tax policy -- in other words they all mimicked the US tax code?

I've posted this before, but it's worth another run:

http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/...ican-nation-copied-u-s-tax-policy/

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 87): Who register is the key word here, if they don't register they don't need to vote. Besides mandatory voting is a good idea IMO, the Australians also agree with me.

I agree in general that mandatory voting is a good thing, I'd like to see it applied in the US as well as a matter of fact, but requiring citizens living abroad to vote is a bit much, especially for a country that doesn't have the best infrastructure abroad. If you live in Perth, you better hope the mail gets to you and back in 12 calendar days, otherwise you're going to Canberra to vote in person...

Registering with a consulate may be technically optional, but only until you need them for pretty much anything, like registering a birth or renewing your passport. Good luck getting it done without registration.

Quoting arrow (Reply 88): Have you given any thought to what might happen if other countries adopted mirror-image citizenship-based tax policy

I don't know of another country that has gone to similar extent, but some countries have been able to use FATCA to their "advantage." France threatened to ban its banks from complying unless the US gave them access to the assets of French citizens in the USA. Banks and elected representatives from Florida screamed (apparently they have a lot wealthy retired French citizens) but the Treasury caved in, and again when Brazil required pretty much the same access.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 86): get over it.

As soon as you admit Obama is the president of every American and he signs laws for the US, not for himself, or whoever voted for him, or whatever other subset conveniently excludes people who can't get over his being president still...

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 89): France threatened to ban its banks from complying unless the US gave them access to the assets of French citizens in the USA. Banks and elected representatives from Florida screamed (apparently they have a lot wealthy retired French citizens) but the Treasury caved in, and again when Brazil required pretty much the same access.

Ah yes -- that magic word reciprocity. Most countries signing IGAs to implement FATCA have asked for that -- but so far the US has only promised to work towards it. And those Florida banks (Texas too) have launched a lawsuit to overturn Treasury's promises. And there's a strong body of opinion that Treasury's IGAs -- with reciprocity -- have no legal authority because they are in fact treaties --- and treaties have to be approved by the Congress.

But even if reciprocity sticks (which I think is highly unlikely) -- the French want info on accounts held by their RESIDENTS -- not their citizens -- because they tax on residence not citizenship. Likewise for everyone else. FATCA requires data not just on US residents with foreign accounts, but on US citizens residing elsewhere. That is a very big difference.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 89): As soon as you admit Obama is the president of every American...

Never denied that.
Stop putting words in people's mouth.

Quoting arrow (Reply 90):

You think this law will be overturned or just not enforced?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 91): You think this law will be overturned or just not enforced?

Very tough call right now, because they are going full steam ahead with implementation (although it has been delayed three times now because they can't get the implementation rules and regs in shape). Interestingly, just last week four US bank associations/lobby groups asked for yet another 6 month delay (it's scheduled to go into force July, 2014) because they still can't understand how the rules will affect them. It's a very powerful lobby group and I'd be surprised if they don't get something. Needless to say -- its the reciprocal stuff that has them with their shorts in a knot -- the rest of the world finds that quite amusing.

I think it might take a couple of years of absolute chaos in the implementation that does it in -- suggestions are being made that if you think the Obamacare rollout was bad, wait til FATCA hits the wall. I also think that the serious economic damage that this will cause to the US economy is not on any politician's radar screen. FATCA has made US citizenship toxic for people living in other places, but the real damage comes from the 10% beneficial ownership rule. Any global enterprise that has a US citizen as an investor at a !0% or more level has to make full disclosure of everything to the IRS. Once that sinks in, it will be very hard to find ANY global operation that has any American involvement in it at all -- it will all be purged.

There's a lot more going on but it would take a manuscript to go through it all.

Quoting arrow (Reply 92): Very tough call right now, because they are going full steam ahead with implementation (although it has been delayed three times now because they can't get the implementation rules and regs in shape). Interestingly, just last week four US bank associations/lobby groups asked for yet another 6 month delay (it's scheduled to go into force July, 2014) because they still can't understand how the rules will affect them. It's a very powerful lobby group and I'd be surprised if they don't get something. Needless to say -- its the reciprocal stuff that has them with their shorts in a knot -- the rest of the world finds that quite amusing. I think it might take a couple of years of absolute chaos in the implementation that does it in -- suggestions are being made that if you think the Obamacare rollout was bad, wait til FATCA hits the wall. I also think that the serious economic damage that this will cause to the US economy is not on any politician's radar screen. FATCA has made US citizenship toxic for people living in other places, but the real damage comes from the 10% beneficial ownership rule. Any global enterprise that has a US citizen as an investor at a !0% or more level has to make full disclosure of everything to the IRS. Once that sinks in, it will be very hard to find ANY global operation that has any American involvement in it at all -- it will all be purged. There's a lot more going on but it would take a manuscript to go through it all.

Sounds like a very realistic possibility. There are so many pitfalls in this law that can land you in serious trouble. Siam Commercial Bank here in Thailand has hired temps for a trial period to test and see if they want to go along with this law and comply. Even the most astute financial professionals are having a hard time wrapping their heads around this one. Your average Joe-blow in the US wont be affected by this at all but it certainly has severe ramifications for the 7million expats living abroad. Only the super-wealthy are able to get around this and obtain citizenship in another country. Those were the folks this law was supposedly aimed at. Of course we know how that always plays out...

Well, none of us knows WHY she decided to become a Swiss citizen. It might be as simple as for this guy, who publishes this website www.debito.org. He is a caucasian American, who moved to Japan and married a Japanese woman. He got himself a job there, they had two children and bought land and a house in Japan. One day he realised that he wouldn´t move back to the US, but stay permanently in Japan because his life was centered there. He also decided that he would like to participate in local politics and vote to decide what was going to happen with his tax money. Since both Japan and the US don´t accept voluntary dual citizenship, he decided to become a Japanese citizen.

Not because of tax reasons (his income and wealth in Japan is way below the threshold, though he has all the IRS paperwork to attend to), but he is now a member olf his local town council.


Maybe Tina turner just wanted to have the right to vote in Switzerland as well.

Jan

Quoting Superfly (Reply 93): Even the most astute financial professionals are having a hard time wrapping their heads around this one.

For this to work, the US needs pretty well all of the world's 193 countries to sign on in one way or another -- certainly all the big ones. But as of today, they've signed agreements with 10. They say there are lots of others coming, but that's 10 of 193 with only 7 months to go before the July 1 2014 implementation date.

Among the ones who have not yet signed are some critical to FATCA's success -- Canada, China, Russia. There is turmoil in all those places because a) they resent the huge costs they are incurring (Scotiabank says FATCA compliance will cost it $100 million); b) the final rules are still unclear; and c) they are terrified about violations of domestic privacy laws. For example, Canada may have to alter it's Charter of rights and freedoms for FATCA compliance -- can you imagine the shitstorm in the US if, at the behest of a foreign government, the U.S. had to alter the Bill of Rights? To help catch Canadian tax cheats?

This has been, and will continue to be, a nightmare for banks all over the world. One of their fervent hopes is that through reciprocity it will also be a nightmare for US banks, and that might be the beginning of the end for FATCA. I'd like to hope they are right -- but sure wouldn't bet money on it.

Not only the Banks have high costs complying with the US regfulation. US citizens living in countries with high taxatio usually do not have to pay anything to the US IRS as they have already paid over here.

But filing the necessary paperwork will cost up to US$ 5000 for the assistance of a tax accountant familiar with both Systems.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 89): Good luck getting it done without registration.

All depends on the country, I'm not registered with the NZ Embassy in the Hague (covers Scandinavia) but I had no trouble registering the births of my two children born in Norway.

Quoting arrow (Reply 95): For this to work, the US needs pretty well all of the world's 193 countries to sign on in one way or another -- certainly all the big ones.

What would happen to US citizens living in countries who have told the US to stick it? What options are open for those citizens, like you wife if she never goes back to the US (and Canada tells the US to back off), what options do the US have for hitting her up for tax?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 98): What would happen to US citizens living in countries who have told the US to stick it? What options are open for those citizens, like you wife if she never goes back to the US (and Canada tells the US to back off), what options do the US have for hitting her up for tax?

If Canada tells the US to stick it, then Canadian banks would be breaking Canadian law (both privacy laws and Charter/discrimination laws) by simply asking people about their status as "US persons." That's discriminatory -- just ask yourself what the reaction would be if a bank ever asked a customer if they were a "Jewish person" or a "Palestinian person." There'd be hell to pay -- quite justifiably.

The problem then for the banks would be the US then withholding 30% of every US-source transfer that goes through Canadian banks -- which would be crippling. It would also violate umpteen provisions of NAFTA, the WTO and any other international agreements in place for money exchanges and transfers. A lot of people close to this don't think the US would ever follow through against a country like Canada because there is a huge amount of Canadian money invested in the US --- and if the IRS suddenly held back 30% of every transfer, people would pull every penny out of any US investment they might have. I just wish someone had the guts to call the IRS bluff on that one because the economic devastation on the US as well as everyone else would be horrific.

The worry is that the federal government will sign an IGA with the US that will find a way to by-pass those charter/privacy rights and throw all those unlucky "US persons" under the bus. There's more than a million of them up here, and by the time you add in their affected family members, it's close to 4 million. Two or three constitutional experts have already warned Ottawa that an IGA would still violate the Charter -- and on the strength of that there is a very high probability that if Canada accedes to the US demands, there'll be a couple of very large class action suits launched almost immediately.

By the way -- New Zealand has already signed an IGA -- so US persons in New Zealand have already been thrown under the bus. Guess there just weren't enough of them to carry any political clout with the NZ government.

From my wife's perspective -- the IRS can't chase her in Canada. The IRS would have to convince a Canadian court to issue an order to collect money -- and the IRS tried that more than 20 years ago and had their case thrown out of court. CRA (Canada Revenue Agency) has already said it will not help the IRS collect taxes or fines from anyone in Canada who was a Canadian citizen at the time. My wife has not lived in the US since 1969, and has been a Canadian citizen since 1974 -- so she's safe.

Her problem would come if she travels to the US. she could be arrested at the border and likely held on tax evasion charges. This has not happened to anyone yet -- at least not that I'm aware of --- but that's because the two data bases -- customs and IRS -- have not been merged yet. Except for the example you gave of your cousin -- and that one does intrigue me because maybe she's the first. Has that all been resolved? And did she have to file tax returns to the IRS?

[Edited 2013-11-25 08:54:24]