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AA7295
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"I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:03 am

http://world.time.com/2013/11/27/chi...locking-to-the-u-s-to-have-babies/

Check that article out. Now I have ALWAYS been an opponent of birthright citizenship. It is the most stupid, easily abused law America has in my opinion. In fact Canada and the USA are the only 2 countries in the world that have this law. Maybe a hint that it's silly and should be repealed.

Now that you can see that over 10,000 "citizens" were commercially created deliberately in this way, does this concern you?

[Edited 2013-11-28 01:05:21]
 
Superfly
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:35 am

I want a Chinese wife. It's a win, win situation.  
Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
Now that you can see that over 10,000 "citizens" were commercially created deliberately in this way, does this concern you?

You seem to have a lot of concern for domestic affairs in the United States for an Aussie.
I have no problem with this. The Chinese are the kind of immigrants we'd like to have. They aren't blowing stuff up and filling up our prisons. Most are smart, hard working, family oriented people and are good neighbors.
Europe can take in the Middle-Easterners and Africans, we can take the Chinese.
The US owes so much debt to China that we're really aren't in a position to challenge them much when it comes to these sort of things.
Now if we can just get China to buy some Boeing 747-8Is.   


With all the talk about FATCA in the international community, having US citizenship may be a curse more than an asset.
Bring back the Concorde
 
AA7295
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:54 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
You seem to have a lot of concern for domestic affairs in the United States for an Aussie.

I just exercise critical thought and can see this being detrimental to the US in the long-term.

Additionally, you would think that as only 2 countries have this law that it kind of might not be something that is appropriate for this day and age.
 
Superfly
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:08 am

Quoting aa7295 (Reply 2):
Additionally, you would think that as only 2 countries have this law that it kind of might not be something that is appropriate for this day and age.

Not concerned about other nation's birth laws. Our existing birth policy doesn't bother me one bit.
Bring back the Concorde
 
photopilot
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 1:35 pm

Quote:
"The agency even offers a primer on how the U.S. welfare system works......"

This line from the article just about sums it up nicely. Let the American taxpayer fund these new immigrants/citizens.
 
ltbewr
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:26 pm

Of course, many 1000's of persons from Mexico, Central and South America, Eastern Europe have been doing this, having their babies born in the USA for years and for the same reason. Odd how as much as many bash our country so many want to be a citizen.

[Edited 2013-11-28 06:27:37]
 
rfields5421
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 3:26 pm

Lets make sure everyone understands a couple things.

1) If the child is born in the United States - that child has US citizenship rights.

2) Those rights do not apply to the parents.

3) The parents have no legal right to remain in the United States after their tourist visa expires.

4) The child cannot 'sponsor' its parents to live in the United States until the child is 18 years old, and then it is a three year process before the parents can come to the US.

The child must demonstrate the income and economic means to support the parents before them can legally immigrate. If the parent(s) are illegal alien residents in the US, they must go back to their home nation before the application process can be started. If the parent(s) has been apprehended as an illegal alien and deported - the child cannot sponsor the parent for legal immigrant status - every.

(Yes there are proposals to change some of this - but there have been similar proposals before the Congress for most of the past 30 years - and it ain't changed yet.)

5) The child will not be eligible for welfare, food stamps, etc unless the birth parents abandon the child in the US.


As the article states - the mothers are in the US for only three months, the baby for only one month. Then the two go back to China.


Some thing absolutely wrong in the article - Children can take advantage of in-state tuition and fees based on the state where the child is born. As anyone who has moved in the US knows, birthplace has absolutely no impact on university or college residency status. It is the parent's and child's physical residence for one to three years before the child enters college, depending upon the state laws.



Quoting ltbewr (Reply 5):
many 1000's of persons from Mexico, Central and South America, Eastern Europe have been doing this, having their babies born in the USA for years and for the same reason

Estimates vary greatly - but most sources say that no more than one half and as few a one tenth of 'anchor babies' ever come back to the United States.

The article is more about potential parents in China setting up a 'Safe Haven' for their child and themselves to get out of China than it is about citizenship. I would guess that maybe 50-70% of those children will likely come back to the US.

One advantage not mentioned in the article is that since the child will have a US Social Security number - it will much easier for the parents to establish an offshore bank account in the US and hide money from the Chinese government in US banks. They will of course have to pay US income taxes on any interest/ investment earnings.

Another thing

Birthright citizenship children who bring their parents into the US legally do not increase the number of immigrants from the old country.

Out of the near 430,000 thousand legal immigrants from Asia to the United States in 2012, approx. 81,750 came from China. If these 10,000 children born in the US choose to bring their parents to the US legally in 2033 - those 20,000 parents will be part of the less than 82,000 legal immigrant quota for China. They will not be a 20,000 increase in the Chinese quota. They will simply jump to the head of the line of quota immigrants.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
Flighty
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:17 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Europe can take in the Middle-Easterners and Africans, we can take the Chinese.

We do well by all 3 of those groups. I don't know too many middle eastern people but ironically I know a good deal of African newcomers to the USA. They are largely the same as Chinese immigrants, careful with money, intact families and doing jobs / going to school. Just the kind of immigrants you want. My guess is, border-jumpers coming into Europe are more analogous to the people who jump our borders coming in from the south. Different socioeconomic class (presumably the lowest).

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
They will of course have to pay US income taxes on any interest/ investment earnings.

   Maybe the IRS should set up offices over there and say hi.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):

Agreed. Went to pick up a new passport for one of our kids last week. There was a Russian couple with a new born picking up the kids passport. They weren't even shy about it. They sat behind us waiting for their turn talking about how great it was they could just come here, have a kid and then go back with the kid being a citizen. At least they were going back. It's was all I could do not to turn around and tell them to eff off. I'm a firm believer that any immigration reform needs to include the denial of anchor births. At least one parent should be a citizen. That's a no brainer.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
finnishway
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:27 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
In fact Canada and the USA are the only 2 countries in the world that have this law.

Not true. If you born in Finland you will usually become citizen. It is not 100% sure, but still 99% sure, because they are so many ways to get the citizenship when you born in Finland.
 
lxa333
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:28 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Europe can take in the Middle-Easterners and Africans

No thank you as a dual citizen of EU/US.
SWISSAIR-Worlds most refreshing airline
 
rfields5421
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 4:31 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
Maybe the IRS should set up offices over there and say hi.

They do have people in China, Germany, France and the UK - permanent offices. They also have people at certain times in most other countries with significant US citizen populations. (Philippines, Poland, Mexico, Costa Rica).

There are several threads on this section about the 'unfair' US laws which tax the income earned by US citizens in foreign countries.

And the very burdensome paperwork.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
Arrow
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:01 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
One advantage not mentioned in the article is that since the child will have a US Social Security number - it will much easier for the parents to establish an offshore bank account in the US and hide money from the Chinese government in US banks. They will of course have to pay US income taxes on any interest/ investment earnings.

Oh be careful. With FATCA on the horizon, that "hidden" US bank account won't be hidden for much longer. The only way the US could get any foreign interest at all on FATCA was to offer reciprocity -- the IRS will tell US banks to divulge financial account info to the account holder's home government. And I think you are wrong about paying US tax on interest income. My understanding is that to attract foreign investment, the US does not tax interest income on an account held by a foreigner who is not resident in the U.S. That's why all the talk about offshore tax havens like Switzerland and the Cayman's is almost laughable -- the U.S. offers the same thing, and now has over $14 trillion in foreign deposits of one kind or another. The US is in fact #5 on the global list of tax havens. And don't get me started on Delaware; suffice it to say that Delaware makes the Caymans look like a model of transparency.

And that Chinese lady who has her child born on US soil before scuttling back to China? Her child (maybe even her) will, as an adult, be required to file annual tax returns to the IRS no matter where he/she lives. That's why Superfly is correct in suggesting that US citizenship has some very significant liabilities attached to it -- liabilities that are not part of any other nation's citizenship. US citizens are tax slaves wherever they go. Somewhat ironic, don't you think?

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 11):
They do have people in China, Germany, France and the UK - permanent offices. They also have people at certain times in most other countries with significant US citizen populations. (Philippines, Poland, Mexico, Costa Rica).

Are you sure? There is no IRS office in Canada, and Canada has the largest US expat population at a million strong. And the most common complaint I hear from US expats trying to stay compliant with the IRS' byzantine tax code is that they have to call the US to get any IRS help with it. And try finding a tax accountant in France who is sufficiently knowledgeable about the US tax system. It's a mess.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
Arrow
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 5:21 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 8):
They sat behind us waiting for their turn talking about how great it was they could just come here, have a kid and then go back with the kid being a citizen.

This is one of the major flaws -- if not the major flaw -- in how the US informs (or more accurately, neglects to inform) incoming green card holders and newly-minted citizens of their lifelong tax obligations to Uncle Sam. It should be emblazoned on every US passport, every new green card issued, every citizenship certificate.

I bet that Russian couple has no idea that their US citizen child must, as an adult, file US tax returns regardless of where he/she lives. That kid will find that out when he/she is in his/her forties -- and never having lived a day in the US discovers that he's required to file US tax returns. That will put a huge black cloud over that little safety escape valve, and have him/her scurrying to a US consulate or embassy to renounce.

Likewise, incoming immigrants are not informed that they have to tell the IRS (or more accurately, the State Department) about that little savings account they still have in the home country. They are supposed to file an annual FBAR (Foreign Bank Account Report) and report to the IRS any interest income. There are 50 million immigrants in the US, and I bet the vast majority know nothing about this -- and are just now finding out through publicity around FATCA.

Failure to fully inform people of the tax rules, to my mind, borders on criminal negligence on the part of the government. It is nothing short of entrapment. And what makes it even more insidious is the fact that the US is the only country that does this kind of thing -- so no immigrant would ever figure it out without being told.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
rfields5421
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 6:29 pm

Quoting arrow (Reply 12):
Are you sure?

The IRS website list their permanent overseas offices at the US Embassy in Germany, France, China, UK.

From personal experience, I've seen IRS employees working out of the embassy in Manila and Tokyo. I have friends who meet with IRS employees and file their returns at the embassy in Costa Rica and in Mexico City. I've seen several news stories about IRS local assistance to US citizens in Poland (apparently has a large retiree community living mostly on Social Security and small investments).

I would assume - which might be completely wrong - that the IRS views their offices close to the Canadian border as sufficient.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
WindowSeat
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:15 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Reply 2):
I just exercise critical thought and can see this being detrimental to the US in the long-term.

Additionally, you would think that as only 2 countries have this law that it kind of might not be something that is appropriate for this day and age.

I am with Superfly on this. This is not detrimental in any term - long or short.
1) For all the reasons stated above, you can see how hard and difficult it is for people who have US babies to themselves mooch off the US welfare system. So that's a myth.
2) In-state tuition is another myth
3) As noted above, this is about giving their kids an advantage in the new world, nothing wrong with that. It's the same reason economic migrants move to other countries - a better life.
4) I would also argue that the parents who can afford to do this are well placed themselves and so few will ever rely on the US govt for anything. Moreover, with the human rights records of countries like China and Russia, this is a pseudo asylum, going to a country if need be to escape persecution.
5) If these babies want to come to the US in the future to study or for jobs, so be it. They're at least doing it legally and paying taxes right off the bat.
6) Finally, the tax implication of being a US citizen is huge. Even if they don't step foot in the US ever again, they'll pay US taxes (which are generally higher than other countries even if you get credit for taxes paid in your home country)

So, the question is, if you licensed something you created to someone and they go away and pay you royalty on it, why would you object? It's the same with these babies franchising US citizenship and paying a tax royalty on it.

I for one, am in favor of Jus Solis, especially in the US because its tax laws are unlike any other. Very few countries exercise this right on their citizens when it comes to tax.
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
 
AA7295
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:03 pm

Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 15):
I am with Superfly on this. This is not detrimental in any term - long or short.
1) For all the reasons stated above, you can see how hard and difficult it is for people who have US babies to themselves mooch off the US welfare system. So that's a myth.
2) In-state tuition is another myth
3) As noted above, this is about giving their kids an advantage in the new world, nothing wrong with that. It's the same reason economic migrants move to other countries - a better life.
4) I would also argue that the parents who can afford to do this are well placed themselves and so few will ever rely on the US govt for anything. Moreover, with the human rights records of countries like China and Russia, this is a pseudo asylum, going to a country if need be to escape persecution.
5) If these babies want to come to the US in the future to study or for jobs, so be it. They're at least doing it legally and paying taxes right off the bat.
6) Finally, the tax implication of being a US citizen is huge. Even if they don't step foot in the US ever again, they'll pay US taxes (which are generally higher than other countries even if you get credit for taxes paid in your home country)

So, the question is, if you licensed something you created to someone and they go away and pay you royalty on it, why would you object? It's the same with these babies franchising US citizenship and paying a tax royalty on it.

I for one, am in favor of Jus Solis, especially in the US because its tax laws are unlike any other. Very few countries exercise this right on their citizens when it comes to tax.

For goodness sake, do you really think the US government keeps tabs on their foreign citizens? America doesn't even have outbound immigration. I know 3 US citizens who were born in Australia, lived in Australia their whole lives and moved to America in their late 20's and never had uncle sam knocking on the door for their 25+ years worth of tax returns. AND that's from Australia, one of America's closest Allies..... you really think they would have power to implement FATCA and other laws in China.

Besides its an abuse of citizenship. Citizenship is connection to a country, being strategically born in a country to foreign parents does not establish a emotive and patriotic connection to the birthland, other than freeloading the citizenship.

It's just logic. Mark my words... in 50 to 100 years.... this will come back to haunt America. This is not the same time as it was 60 to 100 years ago, so saying "America was built on immigrants" is such a cop out and invalid statement. Wake up.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:40 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
3) The parents have no legal right to remain in the United States after their tourist visa expires.

True, BUT the way immigration looks at it someone has to take care of the new U.S. Citizen. Usually it's the mother. She gets to stay but the father is usually deported. It's done this way with the hopes that with no father=no income and they all will go back to their native country. But it usually doesn't work out that way.
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AR385
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Thu Nov 28, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Reply 16):
It's just logic. Mark my words... in 50 to 100 years.... this will come back to haunt America. This is not the same time as it was 60 to 100 years ago, so saying "America was built on immigrants" is such a cop out and invalid statement. Wake up.

Will you please expand on how it is going to come back and haunt us? Someone is going to have to be paying for the retirement of all the youngsters now. I´d like to read your reasons for your worries.

Quoting arrow (Reply 12):

Oh be careful. With FATCA on the horizon, that "hidden" US bank account won't be hidden for much longer. The only way the US could get any foreign interest at all on FATCA was to offer reciprocity
Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
With all the talk about FATCA in the international community, having US citizenship may be a curse more than an asset.
Quoting aa7295 (Reply 16):
For goodness sake, do you really think the US government keeps tabs on their foreign citizens? America doesn't even have outbound immigration.

The US has, for the past couple of years, been pressuring many countries to deliver to the IRS financial info. on American citizens living in their territory. Pressure at the highest of levels. Mexico for one is negotiating this very issue with the US right now but since there is a "no double taxation" thingie with NAFTA this issue is sort of stalled. But other countries have really felt the pressure. Others, like France and Germany, I believe, told them to shove it.

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
In fact Canada and the USA are the only 2 countries in the world that have this law. Maybe a hint that it's silly and should be repealed.

You are very wrong about that. Ius Solis is much more common than you think.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 8):
Agreed. Went to pick up a new passport for one of our kids last week. There was a Russian couple with a new born picking up the kids passport. They weren't even shy about it. They sat behind us waiting for their turn talking about how great it was they could just come here, have a kid and then go back with the kid being a citizen. At least they were going back. It's was all I could do not to turn around and tell them to eff off. I'm a firm believer that any immigration reform needs to include the denial of anchor births. At least one parent should be a citizen. That's a no brainer.

The above is pure hate. It´s interesting to have discussions about such sensitive topics here but paragraphs like the above really discourages one from entering the fray.
 
Arrow
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:14 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 18):
Others, like France and Germany, I believe, told them to shove it.

I wish that were true, but France just last week announced it had signed an IGA to implement FATCA, and Germany did it six months ago. The one thing that might blow both of these up (and quite a few others as well) is that they are demanding reciprocity from the US -- and there is great resistance among US banks to do that. There's also a large body of opinion that says the US can't offer reciprocity without Congressional approval -- and that would never happen. If reciprocity dies, both Germany and France will walk away from those IGAs. So keep your fingers crossed.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
rfields5421
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:44 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 17):
immigration looks at it someone has to take care of the new U.S. Citizen. Usually it's the mother. She gets to stay

If the mother has no regular legal source of income, the immigration authorities will deport her, when the child is 6 months old. It is presumed by that age the child is healthy enough survive in the home country.

Those relatively small percentage who stay usually file asylum claims, which can take years to work through the system.

Once the child is old enough to attend school, has established community ties - the authorities are less likely to deport both parents since loss of parents is psychologically damaging, and the child is not prepared to do well in a country he/she knows nothing about, and may not even speak the language.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
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Aesma
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:31 am

France and Germany have big banks that have a presence in the US so they had to comply, however since one of the reasons the US is doing this is in response to outrage from most countries (including the US itself) about tax evaders, fiscal heavens etc., it has to go both ways.

Quoting finnishway (Reply 9):
Not true. If you born in Finland you will usually become citizen. It is not 100% sure, but still 99% sure, because they are so many ways to get the citizenship when you born in Finland.

Yes you can get it eventually, it's like that in many countries. In the US the baby has its citizenship right away with no other condition. I'm sure in the case of Finland residency rules apply.

In France we have jus soli, since this is an Americano-French invention dating back to our respective revolutions. However a baby born in France from parents giving it a foreign nationality by blood, will not get French citizenship right away, but no sooner than age 13, and only if he was on French soil for 5 years at that time. Which is no better than what anybody can get really, even illegal immigrants : after 5 years on French soil you can ask to be naturalized, and if at that time you hold a job of some kind, speak some French, put your children in school, aren't a criminal (illegal residency is not a crime, in fact we don't use "illegal" but "clandestine" ) and don't put a burqa on your wife, you get citizenship. Much harder in the US.
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rfields5421
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:59 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
In the US the baby has its citizenship right away with no other condition.

Yes, but there are conditions and procedures.

Positive identification is essential. It is easier today with DNA of a newborn being able to be documented before the child leaves the country.

I would be willing to bet a dinner that the Chinese folks are taking that step, and also applying for a US passport for the infant before leaving the country.


A great many people over the years, especially in the past 20, have presented birth certificates to the US Embassy in foreign countries claiming birthright citizenship. A large percentage of them have been denied because they could not prove they are the person on the birth certificate (In a few cases the same birth certificate has been presented for several different people). Also the birth certificate must match with the one recorded in the official state records. Hospital and doctor/ mid-wife birth certificates are not acceptable.

A person claiming citizenship will have to apply for a first passport at a US Embassy. They have to PROVE they were born in the United States. The person must also present any medical records from their birth, and if they spent more than the first few months of their life in the US, they must present other documentation. School records are especially useful.

You cannot walk up to a US Embassy or present yourself at a border crossing/ port of entry - and waive a copy of a birth certificate and walk into the country.

(BTW - the US is now requiring DNA testing to verify the non-citizen a US citizen is wanting to sponsor in the US is actually a blood relative. They can even tell if the persons are parents or siblings - or more distant relatives who are not eligible.)
Not all who wander are lost.
 
Superfly
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:04 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
I know a good deal of African newcomers to the USA. They are largely the same as Chinese immigrants, careful with money, intact families and doing jobs / going to school. Just the kind of immigrants you want.

Same here. We get the cream of the crop from Africa (not including Obama). The lower hanging fruits from Africa immigrate north to Europe.

Quoting arrow (Reply 12):
US citizens are tax slaves wherever they go. Somewhat ironic, don't you think?

Indeed!
This is one of the most sickening laws on the books.

Quoting arrow (Reply 12):
There is no IRS office in Canada, and Canada has the largest US expat population at a million strong. And the most common complaint I hear from US expats trying to stay compliant with the IRS' byzantine tax code is that they have to call the US to get any IRS help with it. And try finding a tax accountant in France who is sufficiently knowledgeable about the US tax system. It's a mess.

Luckily Canada is the one country that is really putting up a fight. Keep up the good fight!   
Us expats are counting on you to stand up to that community organizer in the White House.

Quoting aa7295 (Reply 16):
For goodness sake, do you really think the US government keeps tabs on their foreign citizens?

They're certainly starting to. FATCA is the first step in that direction.

Quoting aa7295 (Reply 16):
Mark my words... in 50 to 100 years.... this will come back to haunt America.

Our debt will wipe us out much sooner than that.

Quoting arrow (Reply 19):
The one thing that might blow both of these up (and quite a few others as well) is that they are demanding reciprocity from the US -- and there is great resistance among US banks to do that. There's also a large body of opinion that says the US can't offer reciprocity without Congressional approval -- and that would never happen. If reciprocity dies, both Germany and France will walk away from those IGAs. So keep your fingers crossed.

That's good to hear! Thank God the Republicans control Congress because they would never approve of this. If the Senate has to get involved, we can count on Ted Cruz (R-TX), Rand Paul and others of the Tea Party to rigorously fight this awful FATCA law.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
however since one of the reasons the US is doing this is in response to outrage from most countries (including the US itself) about tax evaders,

That is what the politicians want you to believe. That was the stated reason on paper but the reality is that they want more control. The filthy rich can afford to buy citizenship in another country. The going rate for Cambodian citizenship is $100,000. It's far more difficult here in Thailand but many developing and 3rd world countries it's easier to take up citizenship. It's easy for them to show bank statements to get an entry visa if they ever need to visit the US. You may want to get up to speed on this FATCA law that has been extensively discussed in the Tina Turner thread. Arrow laid out the ramifications of this law.
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Boeing717200
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:09 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 18):
The above is pure hate. It´s interesting to have discussions about such sensitive topics here but paragraphs like the above really discourages one from entering the fray.

When people intentionally abuse the laws of our sovereign nation I have very damn right to not only object to it, but to point it out and raise hell about it.

Hate? You are way out of bounds.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
AA7295
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:43 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 24):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 18):
The above is pure hate. It´s interesting to have discussions about such sensitive topics here but paragraphs like the above really discourages one from entering the fray.

When people intentionally abuse the laws of our sovereign nation I have very damn right to not only object to it, but to point it out and raise hell about it.

Hate? You are way out of bounds.

I agree with Boeing717200..... grow up AR385... throwing around the word "hate" is very offensive!
 
AR385
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:32 am

Quoting arrow (Reply 19):
I wish that were true, but France just last week announced it had signed an IGA to implement FATCA, and Germany did it six months ago.

Oops. My bad. I probably got stuck on the news when it was being discussed. I did not know an actual agreement had been reached. Thanks for the update as I have not been following the Turner thread.

Quoting aa7295 (Reply 25):
I agree with Boeing717200..... grow up AR385... throwing around the word "hate" is very offensive!

I see. Truth be told, I believe I´ve been growing up fine, thank you. The suggestion is appreciated, though.

Now. Can we get back to the topic? I´m still waiting for:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 18):
Will you please expand on how it is going to come back and haunt us?

Which would go a long way to help me understand why in 50 or 100 years it´s going to come back and haunt us.

[Edited 2013-11-29 02:54:45]
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 13097
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:05 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Europe can take in the Middle-Easterners and Africans, we can take the Chinese.

No thanks.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 5):
Odd how as much as many bash our country so many want to be a citizen.

That's because most of them are too stupid to understand the massive pitfalls of American citizenship!
 
blueflyer
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:35 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
The parents have no legal right to remain in the United States after their tourist visa expires.

So if I understand correctly, an anchor baby is unable to exercise the most basic right of US citizenship, residing in the US, unless his parents stay along illegally or the baby is separated from his parents and left in the care of other people?

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 8):
They sat behind us waiting for their turn talking about how great it was they could just come here, have a kid and then go back with the kid being a citizen.

And they were doing it in English?!?

Quoting arrow (Reply 12):
And try finding a tax accountant in France who is sufficiently knowledgeable about the US tax system.

Ask the IRS office in Paris, they're quite helpful.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 12:57 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 28):
So if I understand correctly, an anchor baby is unable to exercise the most basic right of US citizenship, residing in the US, unless his parents stay along illegally or the baby is separated from his parents and left in the care of other people?

Correct - the child born in the US has a right to live in the US. His/her parents do not. The child has no legal capacity to sponsor his parents as immigrants to the US until age 21.

The vast majority of anchor babies return to their parents country soon after birth - especially along the US/Mexico border.

Women having anchor babies is (1) planning for 16-21 years down the road when the child is old enough to exercise his US citizenship rights; or (2) badly misinformed and by staying illegally in the US, risk never being able to live legally in the US.


Living next door to me for the past six years is an example. My neighbor is a US citizen, naturalized in 1982 from his home country of Mexico. His wife is a legal immigrant (green card) whom he married in 1991, and brought to the US about a year later after all the paperwork was completed. Her sister and husband had been living in the US illegally since 1988.

The children of the illegals were born in 1988 and 1990 in California and Florida. In 2001 the family stopped following migrant work and moved to the Dallas area. In 2006, the father was rear-ended at a red light in the Dallas area and taken to the hospital. Somewhere in the processing, something triggered a check - and he was determined to be an illegal alien. He also had several unpaid parking tickets on his records.

He was held by immigration and was charged with being illegal, of identity theft because he had been using a 'purchased' social security number for his work, paying income taxes and paying social security for almost 6 years in Dallas - he never filed an income tax return to get back his withholding for fear creating a red flag for immigration. He agreed to have the felony charges dropped in return for quick deportation.

Immigration checked the family and their residency records - utility bills, rental leases, etc. They were able to determine the children were born in the US, but that their mother was not and had no legal right to be in the US. She chose to leave and return to Mexico rather than face possible deportation - and to be with her husband who was in Mexico by that time.

The children moved in with their aunt, my next door neighbor in early 2007. They were 18 and 16 years old. The older about to graduate from high school. When the oldest turned 21, they started to the paperwork to bring their parents legally to the US. The oldest had to quit college and find a full-time job because she had to show she had an income sufficient to prevent her parents from being on welfare or any type of government assistance when they came to the US as legal immigrants. The younger boy had to go to work after high school and not college to add to the total family income.

They were able to bring their mother to the US legally. Because of the documents their father signed to avoid felony charges for his deportation, he is barred permanently from entering the US - as a tourist, as a day worker, as a legal immigrant.

The US citizen children have to travel to Mexico to visit their father. Something they hate because they have never lived in Mexico and they find it unpleasant to visit.


Another Hispanic family on my block - which has been legal in Texas/ the United States since before Stephen F Austin came to Texas - a couple years ago took in two US born children, ages seven and eight whose parents had been deported. After a year, the family determined they would have to be separated likely forever, the children were taken to El Salvador to live with their parents. They did makes sure the children had US passports, documentation of their births, school records, etc - to ensure they would not have trouble returning to the US after they were 16 years old.

The kids hate living in a small village in El Salvador - without cell phone service, maybe one poor over the air TV channel some times, no US style water system, a different education system, etc. But that is what the family has to do to stay together.


One of my best friends, a fellow retired CPO of the US Navy was born in the US, but his father - a legal immigrant from Ireland - never a US citizen - moved to the Philippines to be near his wife's family back when Jim was only two. He grew up in the Philippines a normal child. When he was 22 and had completed college, his father took him to the US Embassy and got the paperwork to verify his US citizenship status, and a US passport. Jim came to the US at age 23, a complete stranger to this nation - and enlisted in the US Navy in 1975. We served together in Lebanon in 1983, and he worked for me in Japan in 1985-86. We are in daily contact via e-mail. Before she passed away, he was able to bring his mother to live with his family for a few years in the US. His children have only visited the Philippines a couple times, and have no desire to live there (their mother, Jim's wife was born and raised in Nevada)


'Anchor babies' do have a wonderful opportunity if they choose to exercise their US citizenship right. But it comes at a high cost. They either have of move to the US as a young adult with no friends, family or familiarity with this culture - having been raised in another country; or the risk of being separated from their family suddenly, and maybe permanently, if the parents try to stay in the US illegally. Though some anchor babies are raised in the US by relatives, or paid strangers.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:34 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 28):

A heavy accent, but yes in English. Which almost made it more irritating. Most of their conversation was in Slavic, it's been some time since my horrid attempt at learning Russian 25 years ago, but it was definitely Slavic and they talked of returning to Moscow so one can safely assume they are Russian. It was quite clear they wanted us to know they'd just come here for the sole purpose of dropping a kid by having that segment of the conversation in English, again sitting right behind us.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
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Aesma
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:33 pm

Anchor baby really denotes a perception then, and the right name should be "world citizen baby" or something. Giving the ability to your child to get a convenient (except for tax troubles) citizenship for its future, not yours.

I have a cousin who is separated from his family because of the US system now that I think of it, he can visit, but doesn't hold a US green card, while his mother and brother do, the first because she "created her work" and the brother because he got there a little younger and was better at school (I don't know if he's a permanent resident, though). At some point this is ridiculous, he entered the country legally and went to high school and all, then gets expelled when adult.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Kiwirob
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 5:19 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 28):

And they were doing it in English?!?

And you have a problem with Russians speaking English? They can, some quite well. In my experience some of the women sound dead sexy speaking English.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 30):
Most of their conversation was in Slavic

If they were going back to Moscow surely they were speaking Russian, not Polish, Croatian, Bulgarian, Czech or Macedonian. They all sound pretty different to me.
 
rfields5421
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:59 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 31):
At some point this is ridiculous, he entered the country legally and went to high school and all, then gets expelled when adult.

Very likely his mother is/ was not in the US on an immigrant visa. She was on an education visa or more likely a work visa.

Those allow minor children to accompany their parents in many cases - but not any adult children, including those who become adults during the visa time period.

The reason is that the visa is a temporary visa for a set period of time and not an immigrant visa. The intent is that the worker/ student will return to their home country after the job or school is completed.

Most countries around the world have similar policies. Some allow children to stay up to age 25, some require them to leave at age 18.


The fellow who was President of Pizza Hut for three or four years in the early 2000s was in such a situation. He made sure his children got a good education, but also that they spend several months in Australia each year. Because both had to move to Australia after they finished their educations. Also, Peter and his wife moved back to Australia when he retired. He had spent almost 35 years working for the company outside Australia - in Singapore, India, Taiwan, then in the United States.


I saw much the same thing occur in Japan several times. Navy men married to Japanese women would work their careers to spend as much time in Japan as possible. Serving on ships based in Yokosuka or Sasebo, often longer than a normal sea tour for their rate due to the small number of shore jobs for their rate.

When their children graduated from high school, or turned 18 - they tried to get student visa's to stay in Japan for college. Some did not and had to leave Japan for the United States - where they knew almost no one and had not lived in the US for most of their lives.

Japan do not allow children of Japanese women and foreign men to be citizens unless they applied for immigrant status and renounced their US citizenship.


Overseas US military families have long had the issue of children turning 18 or 21 or graduating from high school and having to return to the US alone, separated from their family except for tourist visa trips. That was the main reason I made sure I transferred back to the United States when my children were in junior high - and did not take them overseas again. Their home, and our extended family, is here in the US.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
WindowSeat
Posts: 1201
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:58 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Reply 16):
For goodness sake, do you really think the US government keeps tabs on their foreign citizens?

Wow, you're really getting worked up over this thread. I have to wonder if there's more to it than your pure concern for this country.

And yes, the US government does keep tabs on its foreign citizens. Just ask UBS how many of their US citizen account holders the government went after.

Quoting aa7295 (Reply 16):
It's just logic. Mark my words... in 50 to 100 years.... this will come back to haunt America. This is not the same time as it was 60 to 100 years ago, so saying "America was built on immigrants" is such a cop out and invalid statement. Wake up.

America was built on immigrants, there's no denying that. It continues to do so and will do it for a very long time to come. Your statement has no logic, and does not invalidate the fact that America was built on immigrants. As I celebrate Thanksgiving (I hope you know why we celebrate that), I'll think of all the anchor babies, all 10,000 of them, and raise a glass. And to you, for reminding me that there are still those who erroneously think borders will and do work in this day and age.
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:31 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
You seem to have a lot of concern for domestic affairs in the United States for an Aussie.

Said the guy from Thailand.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
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Aesma
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:06 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 33):
Very likely his mother is/ was not in the US on an immigrant visa. She was on an education visa or more likely a work visa.

Those allow minor children to accompany their parents in many cases - but not any adult children, including those who become adults during the visa time period.

The reason is that the visa is a temporary visa for a set period of time and not an immigrant visa. The intent is that the worker/ student will return to their home country after the job or school is completed.

She (along with my uncle, who since divorced her and came back to France as he didn't like the US) went there to create a bakery, investing 6 figures in the process, would that imply a work visa ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
BMI727
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Sat Nov 30, 2013 3:46 am

So these mothers are enslaving their children to American taxation while letting China pay to educate them? I have a hard time being outraged.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
rfields5421
Posts: 6374
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:04 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 36):
would that imply a work visa ?

They were likely on an E-2 Visa.

It requires no US employer or US sponsorship. The visa applicant and spouse can work in the US. Minor children (under age 21) are allowed in the country. But not children over age 21, unless they are made 50% partners in the business and work full-time in the business.

The E-2 Visa does not require intent to become a US permanent resident/ immigrant. It actually does not allow the holder to become a permanent resident/ immigrant or to receive a green card. The E-2 holder must have an intent to return to his/her home country.

The E-2 Visa is for two years, but can be easily extended forever - as long as the business operates. If the business is closed, the E-2 visa holder has a little time to clear up their affairs, then they have to leave the country, if they have not received permission to be US immigrants/ permanent residents.

Since you mentioned a divorce - that likely complicated things. According to what I can find on the US Customs and Immigration Service web site - the E-2 visa is issued to one spouse and their other receives an E-2 visa derivative. A divorce and the primary visa holder leaving the US would really complicate the situation if the secondary spouse were to receive the business and wish to remain in the US.

It might be possible in the case you mentioned for the wife to have applied for an immigrant visa. In that case, if the child was not willing to become a US resident and accept the statutory requirement to register for US military service - the dependent would not get immigrant status, even if his mother did.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
Superfly
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:49 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 26):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 18):
Will you please expand on how it is going to come back and haunt us?

Which would go a long way to help me understand why in 50 or 100 years it´s going to come back and haunt us.

No kidding. According to Al Gore, we're all supposed to be drowning under water due to global warming.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 35):
Said the guy from Thailand.

Cute.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
So these mothers are enslaving their children to American taxation while letting China pay to educate them? I have a hard time being outraged.

  
Perhaps the more Americans there are living abroad, we may become a large enough of a voting block to force Congress to get rid of this law.
Bring back the Concorde
 
B777LRF
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:07 am

The sister of me ex-wife got herself preggars a few years ago. She was, and probably still is, a Turkish citizen who was desperate for her child not to suffer from the same nationality as she is. So she approached me and my family, via her sister of course, asking if we'd be cool with her coming up to Denmark to give birth. Presumably she was under the impression Denmark has the same laws as Canada and the US, with regards to child birth and citizenship.

Had to tell her she'd be welcome to give birth in DK, but the child would not be granted DK citizenship.
Signature. You just read one.
 
PHX787
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:08 am

I;ve seen something like this in Japan a lot recently.

One friend on FB posted an ad from CraigsList from a 25 year old girl in Osaka...the ad explicitly stated she wanted to be impregnated by a white American who is over 180cm (6ft) tall. As I am 181cm, I just barely make the cut    but alas, I am not into impregnating crazy chicks....she did not specify either if the "sperm donor" had to be responsible for child support either.   

But on the other end of the spectrum, many Japanese are going to the US to marry American men, and about 1/5 of these end in divorce...and about 1/3 of those divorces are considered "sudden," which makes me think that the 1/3 of this 1/5 is indeed birth tourism....either way any of these divorces are often drawn-out legal battles of custody. 85% of the time, the male is rewarded custody of the child in the USA as long as he didn't cheat on the wife, whereas in Japan they do not recognize male custody. It's a gigantic mens rights issue here.
But this also spawns another huge issue: recently, there have been a lot of "kidnappings" by divorced wives of their kids, forcing those kids back to Japan, and often times the divorced wife would marry a Japanese man, who would adopt the kid.

In both situations, Japan does not typically recognize the father's right to custody in a divorced marriage. Their claim is that it's the woman's job to raise the kid....but psycological exports for years have stated that a balanced upbringing by BOTH parents is required for the child's health....and I feel this is probably why many Japanese males today are considered "herbivorous," "sedentary," or "freeters:" They did not receive a viable male upbringing which would "balance them out."

But maybe that's just Japan....
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
Boeing744
Posts: 1762
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:34 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
In fact Canada and the USA are the only 2 countries in the world that have this law.
Quoting finnishway (Reply 9):
Not true. If you born in Finland you will usually become citizen. It is not 100% sure, but still 99% sure, because they are so many ways to get the citizenship when you born in Finland.

Add the UK and Ireland to that list, although I believe one parent must be a legal resident of the country for the child to be automatically granted citizenship. Don't quote me on that, though.
 
IADCA
Posts: 2194
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
In fact Canada and the USA are the only 2 countries in the world that have this law.

This statement is false. Canada and the USA are the only two "developed" (by IMF standard) nations with birthright citizenship. Other notables that have it include Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Costa Rica, and...hey, wait a minute! Maybe there's something about the Americas and birthright citizenship? Most everywhere in the Americas has it, and most everyone everywhere else doesn't.

Also, Australia was the last one to repeal it, in 2007. So maybe get off the high horse a bit?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:10 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
5) The child will not be eligible for welfare, food stamps, etc unless the birth parents abandon the child in the US.

Wait, then why do my citizen children of undocumented immigrants (my patients) get WIC and Medi-CAL?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Arrow
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RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:10 pm

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 42):
Add the UK and Ireland to that list, although I believe one parent must be a legal resident of the country for the child to be automatically granted citizenship. Don't quote me on that, though.

My wife found out recently that she can claim Irish citizenship based on her grandfather's status. Having ditched her "toxic" US citizenship, she needs to check Ireland's tax policies before she picks up another one. I suspect she'll just leave it alone.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 15):
4) I would also argue that the parents who can afford to do this are well placed themselves and so few will ever rely on the US govt for anything.

By far, the largest group of anchor babies comes from the south. Not exactly "well placed".

Quoting AR385 (Reply 26):
Which would go a long way to help me understand why in 50 or 100 years it´s going to come back and haunt us.

Who said it would haunt a Mexican?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 41):
many Japanese are going to the US to marry American men, and about 1/5 of these end in divorce

That is actually a good success rate. If true.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 41):
85% of the time, the male is rewarded custody of the child in the USA as long as he didn't cheat on the wife

That's bs. Many states have no-fault divorce, cheating is not a factor. I also find it very hard to believe that A) 85% of courts decide the mother is not qualified as primary caregiver and B) 85% of men even want to be primary caregivers.
 
AR385
Posts: 6936
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:01 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 46):
Who said it would haunt a Mexican?

And who told you I am only Mexican?

[Edited 2013-12-03 11:14:38]
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:05 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):
And who told you I am only Mexican?

I have read your posts for years. Your perspective has always been 100% Mexican.
 
AR385
Posts: 6936
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: "I Want An American Baby!" - Birth Tourism

Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:14 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 48):
I have read your posts for years. Your perspective has always been 100% Mexican.

Yes it has and still is. It has nothing to do with my nationalities. Both years ago and recently.

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