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JoePatroni707
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What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:37 am

What is wrong with our justice system. The son of a wealthy Dallas family basically gets off scott free for being drunk (DUI level was .23) and getting in an car accident that killed 4 and seriosly injuring others. The defense was that he suffered from "afflueza" and he had never been taught boundries. He only got 10 years of probation.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...2/affluenza-dwi-dui-texas/3999487/


In this story, a Montanna teen gets 75 years in prison for raping an 11 year old girl. Now both are horrific crimes, but the punishments are not appropiate in either case..

Sad it appears that Justics is for sale.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...12/12/teen-rapist-montana/3997623/
 
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Jetsgo
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:46 am

One of the problems we face is minimum sentencing guidelines. Pushed for by prosecutors, it essentially leads to prosecutors sentencing the convicted as opposed to leaving that up to a judge who is there to... well... judge fairly.

Of course this doesn't apply to the first case, which unfortunately is a blatant example of money buying freedom. I heard one of the rehab places in Socal his family and the court are considering runs a cool $450k per year.
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flymia
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:16 am

I believe that the sentencing was not what it should have been. However I have more of a problem with 75 years for the rape than 10 years probation for the DUI Killing. I think we put too many people in jail Don't get me wrong some people should be in jail for their lives. I even believe in the death sentence but sometimes, especially with some of the mandatory sentencing guidelines we take it too far.

As for the DUI killer, he was in juvenile court, he was not being tried as an adult. He should have gotten some time. His case differs from the rape has he did not intend to kill the people while the rapist had the full intent and mind set to rape a 11 year old girl. Which is worse? From an intent point of view the rape was worse. From a result of the crime view of course the DUI fatal accident is worse. I don't buy that boys defense and I find it laughable that it was accepted. Now 10 years probation is fairly serious and he makes one mistake in his life he is going to jail. That being said he should have gotten some time 3-5 years IMO.
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LittleFokker
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:23 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
The defense was that he suffered from "afflueza" and he had never been taught boundries. He only got 10 years of probation.

This would have been the perfect time to teach him boundaries. It's the courts' job to clean up when the parents make a mess. Of course, it is Texas, where catering to the rich is practically in the state constitution.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
a Montanna teen gets 75 years in prison for raping an 11 year old girl.

No 16 year old should be messing around with an 11 year old, no matter how consensual it may or may not have been. Having said that, 75 years is way too harsh of a sentence for any minor commiting any crime. 10 years seems like a good maximum term limit for any minor commiting a felony.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Sad it appears that Justics is for sale

Show me a state/country with a perfect justice system and I'll sell you some oceanfront property in Arizona. That jackass Zimmerman is still a free man, getting away with murder.
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Aaron747
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:24 am

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 1):
Of course this doesn't apply to the first case, which unfortunately is a blatant example of money buying freedom. I heard one of the rehab places in Socal his family and the court are considering runs a cool $450k per year.

Geez I'm in the wrong racket...shoulda opened a rehab clinic for treating rich brats.
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srbmod
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:32 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
What is wrong with our justice system. The son of a wealthy Dallas family basically gets off scott free for being drunk (DUI level was .23) and getting in an car accident that killed 4 and seriosly injuring others. The defense was that he suffered from "afflueza" and he had never been taught boundries. He only got 10 years of probation.

The wealthy have long been able to get away with stuff that us mere mortals would have the book thrown at us. Case in point Teddy Kennedy. What punishment did he get for the infamous Chappaquiddick incident? Two month suspended sentence.
 
JoePatroni707
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:42 am

IMHO I think the rich spoiled brat should have gotten at least 10 years in prision, and banned from ever having a driver license again.

The teen in Montana had a long histroy of abuse, not that excuses his actions, but he should have had 20 years in prision.

The list goes on and on for justice inequality....

OJ Simpson
Casey Anthony
Zimmerman...


Its a joke..
 
ltbewr
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:35 am

Texas is filled with politicians who are religious, pro-jail, pro-life and non-drinkers, perhaps some of them could change the laws to prevent another miscarriage of justice by mandated jail sentences for even juvenile DUI killers.
Even under prohibition, his name will be all over the internet for the rest of his life, he and his family will face massive civil liability lawsuits, so he is pretty much trashed his life anyway.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:09 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
What is wrong with our justice system

Seems like normal to me. If you have enough money you can buy whatever outcome you want most of the time.
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flymia
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:17 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 6):
The list goes on and on for justice inequality....

OJ Simpson
Casey Anthony
Zimmerman...

The system worked perfectly in all those cases. There was no "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" In any one of those cases. Better to have 10 guilty men free than one innocent man in prison.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Mir
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:37 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Where do you want to start? I read a really great article the other day about just how broken the justice system in this country is, and how it's failing people left and right. I'll try and find it and post the link if I do.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
The son of a wealthy Dallas family basically gets off scott free for being drunk (DUI level was .23) and getting in an car accident that killed 4 and seriosly injuring others. The defense was that he suffered from "afflueza" and he had never been taught boundries. He only got 10 years of probation.

You know, I could have seen this as appropriate if he had been truly sorry and thrown himself on the mercy of the court. But once you drop the "I killed some people with my recklessness but it's not really my fault because I was never taught to have boundaries" line, forget it - if I were a judge you'd be going directly to jail (do not pass Go, do not collect $200 weekly allowance, etc.). And you can do whatever rehab you need to in jail instead of in Newport Beach. And then when you get out of jail, you'd still be on probation for the next ten years minus whatever time you spent in jail. Maybe that would teach you some boundaries, because it sounds like the perfect time to do that.

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DocLightning
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:48 am

What is wrong with the US Justice system is that the very wealthy have bought the government. They have bought Congress (maybe 3% of the population controls the agenda of the entire GOP), they have bought SCOTUS, they have bought the Justice system.

They cannot be sent to jail (unless they do something REALLY bad and piss off other rich people), made to pay taxes, or made to pay their employees.

This case is merely a symptom of a much wider malaise.
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flymia
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:43 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
they have bought SCOTUS, they have bought the Justice system.

I don't see how they have bought the SCOTUS or any other judicial circuit. Whether state, federal or county. Wealthy people can afford really good attorneys and that makes a HUGE difference in any legal battle.
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Aesma
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:47 am

Do people make a comparison with slavery ? Put (mostly non white) people in prison for decades, working for free.

By comparison French prisons are also full of non white (but you only get there after 15 convictions or something), however they don't work, and the prisons are public. It's far from perfect but I find it morally wrong that prisons could be a business, a recipe for corruption of justice.
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PhilBy
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:51 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 12):
Wealthy people can afford really good attorneys and that makes a HUGE difference in any legal battle.

I can see how that makes a difference in reaching the verdict as the US and UK systems are based on deciding who made the better case, not what the truth is (that's the french legal system).
However once the guilty verdict is reached, should not the judge be responsible to give a fair sentence independent of the quality of lawyer?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:18 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
This case is merely a symptom of a much wider malaise.

I concur, Doctor. Very cogent diagnosis you put forth there.

Saying 'we are a nation of laws' rings pretty hollow when the laws themselves can be ignored/buried/modified on a whim regardless of what the public wants, with a simple phone call to a banker or K-street lobbyist.
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N1120A
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:20 am

Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 1):
One of the problems we face is minimum sentencing guidelines.

The guidelines are not the problem they once were. Mandatory minimums, on the other hand, are still a huge problem. Especially in drug cases.

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 3):
No 16 year old should be messing around with an 11 year old, no matter how consensual it may or may not have been. Having said that, 75 years is way too harsh of a sentence for any minor commiting any crime. 10 years seems like a good maximum term limit for any minor commiting a felony.

Agreed, and most states have a limit of how long a minor convicted as such can be incarcerated - usually till around 25. The problem is that we allow minors to be tried as an "adult," despite not letting them be adults otherwise.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 5):
Case in point Teddy Kennedy. What punishment did he get for the infamous Chappaquiddick incident?

Uh, Kennedy was never proven guilty of anything, other than bad judgment.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):

Do people make a comparison with slavery ? Put (mostly non white) people in prison for decades, working for free.

All the time, and it is very accurate. Though, they do make like 16 cents an hour.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
they have bought SCOTUS

While the disgusting behavior of 5 of the Supremes has been an issue of late, the most dreadful of them all - Scalia - actually has a very good record on criminal procedure and other issues. Remember that this Court stopped the practice of the guidelines being mandatory.
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srbmod
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:54 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Uh, Kennedy was never proven guilty of anything, other than bad judgment.

He got off because of who he was and who his family was. Money and power trumps the law. Had it been some local that wasn't the member of a prominent family, they would have gotten the book thrown at them.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:42 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
They cannot be sent to jail (unless they do something REALLY bad and piss off other rich people)

Or become so wealthy they become a threat to the Government. The Government loves to bully our wealthy citizens. Martha comes to mind.

Quoting flymia (Reply 12):
Wealthy people can afford really good attorneys and that makes a HUGE difference in any legal battle.
Quoting srbmod (Reply 17):
Money and power trumps the law.

   Ooooop there it is.
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dc9northwest
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:46 pm

Hm, I don't know, guys... This thread right under the Kim Jong Un's uncle's execution thread? 

The US justice system isn't perfect but it's better than in many other places... Aside from the whole death penalty thing with which I can't agree... although that's not really used on federal level all that often.

Anyway, I think rich/influential people killing people with cars getting off scott-free happens in most places on Earth. Definitely in Romania. Then again, i suppose I'd expect the US justice system to deal with that sorta stuff better.

75 years in jail for a 16-year old sounds very excessive. Norway has a 21-yr maximum sentence AFAIK. Seems fair.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:40 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
While the disgusting behavior of 5 of the Supremes has been an issue of late, the most dreadful of them all - Scalia - actually has a very good record on criminal procedure and other issues.

SCOTUS has been bought for corporate reasons, not criminal ones. Hence "corporate personhood."

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 18):
The Government loves to bully our wealthy citizens. Martha comes to mind.

Um...she committed fraud. For once, the system worked.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 19):
75 years in jail for a 16-year old sounds very excessive.

I agree, but to get off skot-free and spend a few months at a luxury "rehab" center isn't appropriate, either. He killed four people because he INTENTIONALLY made the decision to drink and then drive. There was no accident here.
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luv2fly
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:35 pm

I am floored with the verdict this kid received. Money talks.
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seb146
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:37 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 12):
I don't see how they have bought the SCOTUS or any other judicial circuit.

Monied interests like ALEC and Americans for Prosperity and so many right wing political groups backing candidates for governors and Congress people and legislators all over the country who have the power to appoint and approve various judges. That is how these things are bought and paid for.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
most states have a limit of how long a minor convicted as such can be incarcerated - usually till around 25. The problem is that we allow minors to be tried as an "adult," despite not letting them be adults otherwise.

Some crimes should be tried as adult crimes. Like murdering four people while driving drunk. It was bad enough a 16 year old stole beer from a Wal-Mart. That should have been a crime punished as a minor. But, he chose to get behind the wheel of a truck and drink and run down four people and injure nine others. Even people in Texas know how stupid it is to drive drunk!

Imagine if the 16 year old drunk driver had been from a working family or family of color? He would be on death row by now, I bet.
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flymia
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:53 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 22):

He wouldn't be on death row but there is a decent chance he would have gotten 10-15 years in prison. The kid was charged with manslaughter, not murder. There is a big difference.

And only the right "buys" power? I'm sure you think the 9th circuit is the perfect court then.

[Edited 2013-12-13 08:54:02]
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rfields5421
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:55 pm

First - it is not the US justice system you are complaining about - it is two completely separate state justice systems.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
wealthy Dallas family

Nit picking - but the family isn't from Dallas - there are from the Fort Worth area. And they really aren't that wealthy

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
He only got 10 years of probation.

As a juvenile, if he had received the 20 year sentence - he would be free and his record cleared in two years. He would be considered a first offender if he kills someone else in a drunk driving accident in two years.

The 10 year probation sentence keeps him in the justice system for 10 years, including 10 years in jail if he is caught drunk driving in that time period.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Montanna teen

Montana's justice system runs under their rules. Texas justice system runs under Texas rules.


Now to what I think is your real complaint - why not a harsh sentence?

Despite all the political talk, the justice system across the various US states is built on the concept/ principle that almost all 'criminals' can be rehabilitated. That first offenders deserve a lenient sentence. (this kid is considered a first offender)


Of course the real losers will be his parents, because the lawsuits will bankrupt them.
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fr8mech
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 6):
OJ Simpson
Casey Anthony
Zimmerman...

These people were found innocent by a jury. They never got to the sentencing phase.

I'm not sure what you guys on the left are complaining about. This is liberalism at work. It's not this poor kid's fault he killed those folks. He's a product of his environment.

Isn't that what we always hear from the left? Of course, this time it didn't work did it? Usually, it's some poor minority child who goes to a failing, inner city school, who has no father figure, whose mother is a crack addict with 10 kids.

Was the family's money a factor? Of course it was. They were able to hire an extremely competent attorney that was able to successfully argue that 'affluenza' is an actual condition that excuses vehicular homicide due to DUI. The only reason that attorney was able to do that was because we have created an environment where a person does not have to take responsibility for his actions if there is even the smallest bit of circumstance that may have intervened.

It's disgusting.

It is a tragedy what happened to those four people. And, it is almost as tragic that this 16 year old will not receive the suitable punishment for his crime. He will have learned: nothing.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
In this story, a Montanna teen gets 75 years in prison for raping an 11 year old girl. Now both are horrific crimes, but the punishments are not appropiate in either case..

As far as I'm concerned: sexual predators should be put out of our misery by the most expeditious manner possible.
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Mir
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:18 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
The problem is that we allow minors to be tried as an "adult," despite not letting them be adults otherwise.

Except that, according to the articles, he wasn't tried as an adult (though he would have been if he hadn't pleaded guilty).

-Mir
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Maverick623
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:29 pm

So the judge says that it's a bad thing when kids aren't held responsible for their actions, because it causes increasingly reckless behavior.

And when that reckless behavior kills someone.... he won't hold the kid responsible.


Great logic, that is.
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bhill
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:16 pm

In the US, you get the "justice" you can afford...it only follows if the financial system is to big to fail, why cannot citizens be too rich to fail?
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fr8mech
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:01 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 28):
In the US, you get the "justice" you can afford...

No, you get the justice system you build. We built this system that let's people use junk psychiatry to absolve themselves of responsibility for their actions.

I don't fault the attorney for going there. It's his job. I fault society for allowing the option to exist. I fault the judge for, not only allowing the defense, but affirming it.

I hope that victims' families seek civil remedy for wrongful death.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
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PanHAM
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:52 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
suffered from "afflueza" and he had never been taught boundries

reminds me of the old joke that he was under the affluence of incahol..

Now, this guy would have received a sentence anywhere between 2 years on probation and probably 3 years of which he serves 1 and a half in a juvenile jail and gets the rest released on 5 years probation.

As to the driving license, he would have to undergo a test which is called here "medical / psycological test". Very hard and difficult to pass but less for a 20/25 year old. Not satisfying for the families of the victims but then, justice is no about revenge.

Quoting flymia (Reply 2):
I have more of a problem with 75 years for

The sentences are too Long and too harsh. Regardlksess what this guy did and what his previous record was, you take any perspectives out of hois life.
Jails in the US are also called " correctional facilities or institutions". You certainly do not make better People in a System that locks away perpetrators for the rest of their lifes, or at least periods of time that are incomprehensaqble for normal persons.


Take the 150 years for Bernie Madoff. Idiotic, totally idiotic. Especially since his greedy Investors get at least 3/4 of their monies back. Bernie should be released at once.

[Edited 2013-12-13 23:42:59]
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seb146
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:16 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 23):
He wouldn't be on death row but there is a decent chance he would have gotten 10-15 years in prison. The kid was charged with manslaughter, not murder. There is a big difference.

Actually, no. Four people were murdered. The kid knew he was doing something stupid. For the family to find a cut rate psychologist to come up with a silly term is just outrageous.

I still believe that if this had been a working family or minority, the sentence would have been taken to adult court and been much more harsh.

Quoting flymia (Reply 23):
And only the right "buys" power? I'm sure you think the 9th circuit is the perfect court then.

One court. Out of how many? SCOTUS is right wing. Eight other circuit courts are right wing. Why does the right always think they are under attack when they own nearly all of the judiciary and the House and a lot of states?
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rfields5421
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:00 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 22):
Imagine if the 16 year old drunk driver had been from a working family or family of color? He would be on death row by now, I bet.

No. The highest level crime an adult or juvenile could be charged with in Texas is Voluntary Manslaughter.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 31):
The kid knew he was doing something stupid.

Knowing you are doing something stupid does not meet the legal requirements for First or Second Degree Murder in Texas, and I don't think any state.


As I said above - the choices for the prosecutors were accept this plea bargin or take the risk of a sympathetic jury. The victims families agreed that the plea deal was a better choice than a long trial with a even better chance for the kid to get off completely.

The judge at sentencing surprised the victim's families with the probation sentence, but the prosecutors should have explained the possibility more clearly to them.

As I said above - the judge had two choices - put the kid into jail, and let him have a clean record when he turns 18.

Or put him on adult probation for 10 years. If he drives drunk, if he commits another crime - he gets 10 years hard time in the Texas prison system.

And as I said above - the civil lawsuits are going to bankrupt the kids' parents. He had one previous alcohol driving incident, and one previous speeding ticket. His parents will be broke, and without a home. They are already planning to leave Texas because no one wants anything to do with them. This kid is also going to be like OJ. Every penny he earns, inherits, gets for most of the rest of his life is going to be confiscated and used to pay off the civil judgements.
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Mir
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:26 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 22):
Some crimes should be tried as adult crimes.

No, children should never be tried as adults. Either someone is an adult or they're not - you don't get to declare that they have responsibility in some areas but not in others.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):
Take the 150 years for Bernie Madoff. Idiotic, totally idiotic. Especially since his greedy Investors get at least 3/4 of their monies back. Bernie should be released at once.

There are people who have barely seen anything back out of the money he stole from them. He should definitely still be in prison. 150 years is probably excessive, but a reasonable sentence would have him living out the rest of his life in prison anyway, so it's more of an issue of semantics.

-Mir
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fr8mech
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:06 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 33):
No, children should never be tried as adults.


Bull, if a 'child' commits an 'adult' level crime, e.g. murder. He needs to be tried as an adult.

In this case, the child in question was driving a car. That is, by and large, an adult action. He committed a crime while participatng in an adult activity. He needs to be charged as an adult.

It's a plus and a minus that we have a clear legal deliniation between adult and 'not adult'. Unfotunately, we allow 'non-adults' to participate in adult activities, e.g. driving, yet there are those that suggest that very same non-adults be relieved of the adult responsibilities when something goes wrong.

Quoting Mir (Reply 33):
you don't get to declare that they have responsibility in some areas but not in others.


But, we do it all the time. Again: driving. What about pregnancy? We also allow non-adults to work, i.e. enter into a contract with an employer. It's part of growing up and slowly teaching and moving responsibility to these non-adults on the cusp of being adults.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 32):
As I said above - the judge had two choices - put the kid into jail,


She should have put the kid in jail.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 31):
For the family to find a cut rate psychologist to come up with a silly term is just outrageous.


No, what is outrageous is that the judge accepted the defense. An attorney can say anything and try anything (within bounds), it's up to the judge and/or the jury to tell him to go packing.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):
You certainly do not make better People in a System that locks away perpetrators for the rest of their lifes, or at least periods of time that are incomprehensaqble for normal persons.


Some people don't deserve a chance to reenter society. Sexual predators fit that description.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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rfields5421
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:55 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
She should have put the kid in jail.

Then he goes free in two years (actually a bit less than 2 years) and his record is expunged

He has a clean record, with no history of any offenses.


All the idiot has to do is commit a probation violation - especially one involving alcohol - and he does 10 years - with no trial or bond or plea agreement to slow down the process.


Now what are the odds the kids has learned his lesson and will never commit another alcohol related offense. I hope he has - and that no additional families have to suffer for his actions - but the odds are .... poor.
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Mir
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:10 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
Bull, if a 'child' commits an 'adult' level crime, e.g. murder. He needs to be tried as an adult.

In this case, the child in question was driving a car. That is, by and large, an adult action. He committed a crime while participatng in an adult activity. He needs to be charged as an adult.

I don't agree with the first part about murder, but you've got a valid point about driving. The principle behind not trying children as adults is that they don't have the judgement necessary to be truly responsible for their actions. If they've been deemed responsible enough in a certain area (i.e. driving) then I can see them being held responsible for anything they do in that area as an adult would.

But the specific crime should not be a factor - we can't say "you killed someone so we're going to decide that you're more a more responsible person than this other person of the same age who stole a bicycle". That makes no sense.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
We also allow non-adults to work, i.e. enter into a contract with an employer.

I'm pretty sure that any signed contract also needs the signature of the parent or legal guardian. As far as unsigned contracts go, they don't really count.

-Mir
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fr8mech
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:12 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 35):
Then he goes free in two years (actually a bit less than 2 years) and his record is expunged

I'd rather he did the jail time. Teach the lesson...you know, that sort of thing?

Sorry, There are too many ways to get around probation terms. In fact, for violent crimes, I'm not a fan of probation in lieu of prison at all.

By the way...who's to say that the kid's parents don't petition the court to get the probation lifted. Two years served in prison, even a juvenile detention facility is better than 10 possible years on probation.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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flymia
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:56 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 31):
Actually, no. Four people were murdered.

No. Your personal opinion is not law. This is not a murder case, end of story.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 31):
One court. Out of how many? SCOTUS is right wing. Eight other circuit courts are right wing. Why does the right always think they are under attack when they own nearly all of the judiciary and the House and a lot of states?

There courts are becoming more liberal every day. I have seen plenty of "left" opinions coming out of the 11th Cir. The 7th, 3rd, DC, 2nd. All to the left.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):
Take the 150 years for Bernie Madoff. Idiotic, totally idiotic. Especially since his greedy Investors get at least 3/4 of their monies back. Bernie should be released at once.

There are hundreds if not thousands of people who have not gotten a cent back. How someone who took that much money from people illegally should just be let out I jail I don't see.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
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fr8mech
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:23 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
If they've been deemed responsible enough in a certain area (i.e. driving) then I can see them being held responsible for anything they do in that area as an adult would.

That's pretty much my point.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
But the specific crime should not be a factor - we can't say "you killed someone so we're going to decide that you're more a more responsible person than this other person of the same age who stole a bicycle".

I disagree. The type of crime alleged committed should present a circumstance in how the accused is treated in the legal system.

Murder, rape, robbery, assault, DUI with deaths, etc...crimes like that need to be addressed regardless of the age of the 'participant'. I agree, the bar should be a little different and we (society) probably need to bring some additional folks into the process in order to decide whether the 'child' had the judgement to understand what they did.

A 5 year old killing someone is different from a 10 year old which is different from a 17 year old. But, as the child approaches that magic, arbitrary age of majority, that bar has to be lowered.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
I'm pretty sure that any signed contract also needs the signature of the parent or legal guardian. As far as unsigned contracts go, they don't really count.

Oral contracts are just as valid as written contracts. When I hire a 16 year old to mow my lawn, I enter into a contract with that 16 year old which is enforcable.

I don't recall ever signing a single piece of paper for any job I took before I turned 18. The only thing I had were, what we referred to as 'working papers' when I turned 15 or so. My parents signed the application. After that, I looked for employment, I 'negotiated' salary and, I was paid...normally in cash.

Of course, that was almost 30 years ago.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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PanHAM
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:46 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 38):
There are hundreds if not thousands of people who have not gotten a cent back. How someone who took that much money from people illegally should just be let out I jail I don't see.

But they will, These things take time. The quota will likely reach 75%. That is what I meant. And all hhis Investors were greedy. Whoever invests in anything that promises ROIs like Madoff offered should know that the risk is high.

Anyway, i read the articles about this subject online and the biggest penatly for the Family will anyhow be that they will be sucked out of Money, likely for the rest of their lives. That is much more than a jail sentence.

In their place I would pack up and lave the Country. Civil suits cannot be enforced outside the US,

.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
Some people don't deserve a chance to reenter society. Sexual predators fit that description.

wemight even agree on that but then there was a Story about a 6 year old kid who kissed a six year old Girl and was suspended for one dayfrom School.
How stupid can a School board get and can't they imagine what they possibly did to that kidI?

In a Country where a 18 year old having sex with a 17 year old might be labeled a sexual offender for the rest of his/her life I would have second thoughts about your opinion.
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fr8mech
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:57 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
How stupid can a School board get and can't they imagine what they possibly did to that kidI?

I started a thread a couple of months ago about stupid school administrators and some of the stupid decisions they make based on zero-tolerance. It got locked for some reason.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 40):
In a Country where a 18 year old having sex with a 17 year old might be labeled a sexual offender for the rest of his/her life I would have second thoughts about your opinion.

About my opinion? Except for the fact that I think sexual predators should be put to a quick and, preferably, violent death, you know nothing about my opinion when it comes to what is and is not considered a sexual 'crime'.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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rfields5421
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:24 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 39):
I don't recall ever signing a single piece of paper for any job I took before I turned 18. The only thing I had were, what we referred to as 'working papers' when I turned 15 or so. My parents signed the application. After that, I looked for employment, I 'negotiated' salary and, I was paid...normally in cash.

My jobs, where I was on a payroll, and where I had taxes and SS withheld under age 18, all required approval from my parents. That was in the mid-60s.

Even when I started college and was under 18, my parents had to co-sign student grant papers, scholarship papers, an acceptance of a job, etc until I turned 18.

Until I was 18, I could not legally purchase a car or register a car or enter into any financial contract.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:06 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 42):
and where I had taxes and SS withheld under age 18

Well, that was the difference. I didn't have a 'tax-paying' job until I was 18, except for a work-study job at school (college), and I don't recall having to get my parent's permission to take the job.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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rfields5421
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:19 pm

What, you didn't pay legally due taxes?   

Or you might have benefited from the Regan Tax Cuts which exempted millions of low income Americans from having to pay income taxes.

My father even made me pay self-employment tax on income at age 14 & 15 from mowing yards and hauling hay. He said the amount I was putting in the bank (about $1,200 per year) was too much to not be noticed by the IRS if I didn't file.

(I'm not sure of your timing - 30 years would have been after those tax changes, but 33 years would have been before).

I sure benefited from those tax cuts, being an E-5 in the Navy. My taxes went from 22% of a $8,000 taxable income to 12% of a $9,300 taxable income.
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us330
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:42 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
the child in question was driving a car. That is, by and large, an adult action. He committed a crime while participatng in an adult activity.

A simple remedy is changing the laws so that the same punishments apply to all drivers with a driver's license, and the adult/minor distinction is abandoned with respect to driving infractions. As it stands, the distinction is abolished with moving violations and minor infractions--a 16 year old speeding through a school zone is subject to the same punishment as a 40 year old--which makes it difficult to comprehend why punishments differ on more serious offenses like DWIs.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:59 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):

Not so sure it's the justice system so much as the US has lost its moral compass and in doing so devalued human life. We used to read about horrible crimes occasionally, now it's a weekly if not daily occurrence. It's been this way, don't get me wrong (mafia, mobsters, famous criminals), but now it's random kids doing it. If people don't think the glamorization of it on TV/Movies and video games haven't desensitized people to the act of killing someone, I've got swamp land you'd be interested in. A lot can be said for the parental fawning over children these days and utter lack of an occasional ass whipping as well. People have raised an entire generation of kids who can't cope with one bit of criticism and when they pop, they pop.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
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fr8mech
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:49 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 44):
What, you didn't pay legally due taxes?

I guess not...though, at the salary I was earning, I'd would have seen everything back, except the FICA/Medicare. Somehow, I don't think my part-time sub-minimum & minimum wage jobs over 2 or 3 years will provide me with any eligibility issues.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 44):
My father even made me pay self-employment tax on income at age 14 & 15 from mowing yards and hauling hay.

Oh yeah, my Dad ensured that I paid my share of the 'family tax'. Every job I had, my Dad got his cut until I moved out at 22.

Quoting us330 (Reply 45):
A simple remedy is changing the laws so that the same punishments apply to all drivers with a driver's license, and the adult/minor distinction is abandoned with respect to driving infractions.

A sensible idea. But, it would have to happen at the state level.

Quoting us330 (Reply 45):
the distinction is abolished with moving violations and minor infractions--a 16 year old speeding through a school zone is subject to the same punishment as a 40 year old--which makes it difficult to comprehend why punishments differ on more serious offenses like DWIs.

Actually, around here, someone less than 18 receives greater punishment for moving violations and the bar is lowered for for DUI's under 21.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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rfields5421
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:12 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 47):
I'd would have seen everything back, except the FICA/Medicare

After the Regan Tax Cuts - before them when I was young - if you were a dependent on your parents return - you paid income tax on every penny you earned. No standard deduction, no exemptions.

Paid $180 tax on $1,600 income.
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fr8mech
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RE: What Is Wrong With US Justice System?

Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:59 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 48):
After the Regan Tax Cuts - before them when I was young - if you were a dependent on your parents return - you paid income tax on every penny you earned. No standard deduction, no exemptions.

As soon as I started paying taxes, my Dad cut me loose for tax purposes. Didn't realize at the time the tax hit he took for me.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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