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Max Q
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The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:24 am

We have no shortage of whining 'Christians' complaining of their troubles and how they are picked on.




The reality is that we poor Atheists are singled out and (no pun intended) demonized far more than any other secular group.




What's a self respecting non believer to do
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dc9northwest
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:34 am

I know, right?

I dunno where in the US you live, but it can get really bad in some areas.

Luckily Western Europe's a bit more progressive and treats religion more like a tradition than a... well, an absolute truth.

Peace out, or, how some Christians believe atheists say to each other, "Hail Satan".

Merry Christmas, everybody. Or Happy Holidays. Or whatever floats your boat.
 
PanHAM
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:44 am

Well, the freedom of religion is also the freedom from Religion. And People not caring about Religion and/or not going to church must not necessarily be atheists.

That Position is difficult to maintain in the USA, except in the large cities of the east and the west, no one really cares in most European countries.
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moo
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:48 am

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
The reality is that we poor Atheists are singled out and (no pun intended) demonized far more than any other secular group.

Do you have any actual evidence of that to present?
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:05 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 3):
Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
The reality is that we poor Atheists are singled out and (no pun intended) demonized far more than any other secular group.

Do you have any actual evidence of that to present?

I'm guessing he's being sarcastic with this remark. But, just in case, go to friendly neighbor Christian and ask his/her opinion about what atheists do.

A couple of people I've met were surprised with me when I revealed I'm an atheist. They said that they never thought an atheist could be so well mannered and respectful to others, that all they've been told was that we would always find some flaw in their religion and that we don't follow an ethical lifestyle. While that may be true for some, it's not for me. Funny, a couple of pedophile priests and scammers and that's not supposed to reflect their religion; a couple of bad-mouthed atheists and all atheists are like that.  
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
Well, the freedom of religion is also the freedom from Religion.

According to many religious folks, freedom of religion is applicable as long as you believe in a deity. If you don't, then that rule doesn't apply to you.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:26 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):

It is amazing how widespread is the notion that without religion it is impossible to be a moral or ethical person. Many, many articles written by "learned people" advance the notion that without a belief in God it is impossible to have a moral compass.

Yet such theories ignore the possibility that morals and ethics may be built on self-interest as a members of a group. Humans are social animals and our survival as a species depends on co-operation. That need for co-operation for the functioning of society gives rise to social mores. Such mores are learnt and passed on but do not require a religious underpinning. People will commonly conform because it is both expected and generally beneficial. This may appear to be a mercenary approach but it is no less so than a belief in doing the right thing because God will reward you.
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moo
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:12 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
I'm guessing he's being sarcastic with this remark. But, just in case, go to friendly neighbor Christian and ask his/her opinion about what atheists do.

I'm a Christian, couldn't give a crap about what someone else is doing so long as its not illegal. Same goes for every Christian I know. We certainly dont have an issue with atheists, but many of them sure do seem to have an issue with us...
 
srbmod
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:41 pm

Unfortunately, the popular perception of Atheists in the media here is the US is that we're all militants like the folks from American Atheists and the Freedom From Religion Foundation and want all aspects of religion out of our government and public property. I think that most Atheists in the US are of the type that don't believe in God (or the existence of God) but aren't critical of those that do believe in God, and aren't looking to force the government to remove "In God We Trust" from our money, the 10 Commandments from government buildings and even Christmas trees and menorahs from public spaces. Many of us still celebrate Christmas and Easter, as these holidays are more about getting together with family and friends, as that was some of the original intentions of the non-Christian seasonal celebrations before they got co-opted (There's no mention of a Christmas tree in the Bible....).

Some have tried to portray Atheists as "godless liberals" when in fact, there are Atheists from all sides of the political spectrum. I agree that morality and ethics are not related to spirituality at all. A sense of what's right and what's wrong doesn't come from some book written many centuries ago (and often rewritten to remove content the church of the day found objectionable).
 
BMI727
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
Well, the freedom of religion is also the freedom from Religion.

People seem confused about what freedom of religion actually is.

Freedom of religion means that the government cannot mandate religion or lack of religion nor can they discriminate based on religion.

It does not mean that you get to go through life without ever seeing or hearing about a religion you disagree with. It does not mean that religious people must keep their religion behind closed doors, and it does not mean that people have to treat all religions equally.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
it does not mean that people have to treat all religions equally.

"Treat others the way you'd like to be treated". 'Nuff said.

Quoting moo (Reply 6):
We certainly dont have an issue with atheists, but many of them sure do seem to have an issue with us...

The story goes the same way in my case.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
It does not mean that religious people must keep their religion behind closed doors,

I thoroughly agree with this, but in the real world, you and I both know that isn't applied equally. I'm willing to bet that if a Muslim were to promote Islam we'd see outrage and that the person should keep Islam to themselves. We either allow all people to express religion freely without fear or repercussion or don't allow any.

To put it bluntly: This says it all
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BMI727
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:24 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 9):
"Treat others the way you'd like to be treated". 'Nuff said.

That is not written into the law.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 9):
I thoroughly agree with this, but in the real world, you and I both know that isn't applied equally.

Only the government must treat them equally. Nobody else does.
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seb146
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:24 pm

As a Christian, I am much more disturbed by people who call themselves religious but do everything and anything that proves they are not. I have met many Atheists who are much more religious than some Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. I guess growing up amongst the "evil liberals" in the West has taught me that what goes on over on that side of the fence has little or no bearing on what goes on over on my side of the fence.
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baldwin471
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:25 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 9):
To put it bluntly: This says it all

Bingo
 
WestJet747
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:30 pm

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
What's a self respecting non believer to do

To shut up, probably. Nobody resects someone who plays the victim card all the time.

Just live your life the way you want and stop caring about what religious people think or say. That's really the point of atheism, isn't it?

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 5):
It is amazing how widespread is the notion that without religion it is impossible to be a moral or ethical person.

Really is funny when you see people acting completely immorally or unethically whilst wearing a cross around their neck. Must be because a few minutes in the confessional with a priest and apparently all is forgiven...

Quoting moo (Reply 6):
I'm a Christian, couldn't give a crap about what someone else is doing so long as its not illegal. Same goes for every Christian I know.

Sorry, but that's a whole lot of BS. I'm not one of those militant atheists like our OP here, I tend to only talk about my atheism if someone else brings it up first, but even I've encountered scores of Christians who have a problem with me because I don't believe in a higher power.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 7):
Many of us still celebrate Christmas and Easter, as these holidays are more about getting together with family and friends, as that was some of the original intentions of the non-Christian seasonal celebrations before they got co-opted (There's no mention of a Christmas tree in the Bible....).

  

Quoting srbmod (Reply 7):
Some have tried to portray Atheists as "godless liberals" when in fact, there are Atheists from all sides of the political spectrum.

This seems to be an American phenomenon. I haven't heard "godless" and "liberal" put together anywhere else.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
Only the government must treat them equally. Nobody else does.

The law says otherwise.
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bristolflyer
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:51 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 5):
It is amazing how widespread is the notion that without religion it is impossible to be a moral or ethical person.

Herein lies the great irony about religion for me. Those people of faith that I have had dealings with in the past have less morals than those of us that aren't believers. Maybe it has something to do with the idea that God will look over them and they don't have to take responsibility for their actions. Quick confession on a Sunday morning and they're absolved of their sins come Monday.

So much bad stuff happens in the name of religion it's easy for those non-believers to cynical about the benefits.
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JoePatroni707
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 1):
eace out, or, how some Christians believe atheists say to each other, "Hail Satan".

Do ya really think that atheist believe in the devil? I mean come on… If we don't believe in god, do ya really thing we believe in a guy with pointy ears and a pitchfork living in a furnace "down somewhere" LOL!
 
dc9northwest
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:23 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 15):
Do ya really think that atheist believe in the devil? I mean come on… If we don't believe in god, do ya really thing we believe in a guy with pointy ears and a pitchfork living in a furnace "down somewhere" LOL!

I'm an atheist... so... What?
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:51 pm

This is a bit of an eye opener for a resident of the UK, here religion is really not a big issue, of course much of our pomp and ceremony is based on religion, however when we see our politicians, royal family, celebrities etc attending these occasions no seems at all concerned as to whether they have any form of religious belief or not. Indeed Alastair Campell who was Tony Blairs press advisor famously told the devoutly religious Blair when he wanted to talk about his beliefs "we don't do religion"
 
Pyrex
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:10 pm

Unlike most liberals, I am a true atheist. I treat all religions with the same level of respect - none whatsoever. For that reason, I have a big issue with the commonly portrayed notion of atheism, perpetuated by those people, which is just thinly-veiled oikophobia - they will go out of their way to protect all kinds of idiotic rituals in the name of freedom of religion just as long as they are not done by the perceived "dominant" culture of that specific locale.
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Aesma
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:39 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
Well, the freedom of religion is also the freedom from Religion. And People not caring about Religion and/or not going to church must not necessarily be atheists.

I take the liberty to call them atheists anyway. In polls made every year there are a majority of French who are said to be Catholics, who have not set foot in a church in years, clearly their only relation to religion is cultural.
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DocLightning
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:00 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):

Unlike most liberals, I am a true atheist. I treat all religions with the same level of respect - none whatsoever. For that reason, I have a big issue with the commonly portrayed notion of atheism, perpetuated by those people, which is just thinly-veiled oikophobia - they will go out of their way to protect all kinds of idiotic rituals in the name of freedom of religion just as long as they are not done by the perceived "dominant" culture of that specific locale.

I think you're referring more to "new age" people who will embrace any "exotic" religion, while loudly denouncing Judeo-Christian religion. So they will become Taoists, Buddhists (a popular one), Hindus, etc. just because they are non-Western. They forget that there are Hindu extremists and even terrorists who are every bit as horrible as any extremist that Judaism, Christianity, or Islam has drummed up.

However, sometimes I see "atheists" doing things that look a lot like prosyletizing to me. I used to be staunchly opposed to this, but now I realize that there are large sections of the world where being a nonbeliever (my preferred term these days) is a truly momentous and even dangerous thing, a lot like being gay in some respects. And in that sense, some of these billboards and meetings and tabling are helpful. They can show "closet atheists" that not believing is OK.

But I disagree that atheists should be trying to convert people to atheism. First of all, atheism isn't a thing; it's a lack of a thing. I don't happen to play golf, but I don't need a word to describe me as a non-golfer. I don't happen to have any religious beliefs, so that makes me a nonbeliever.

Second, there are two kinds of religious beliefs. The first is the nonfalsifiable belief. They can't be proven wrong under any circumstances. "God loves me, God has a plan for me, whatever happens is God's will." There is absolutely no way to prove that wrong. So those people are not amenable to reasoned argument about their beliefs. The second is the falsifiable belief, like doomsday cults, young earth creationism, etc. Even when the beliefs are unambiguously proven wrong, they continue to believe anyway. So they are not amenable to reasoned argument about their beliefs. My attitude towards these people is that they can do as they wish as long as they aren't bothering anyone else about it.

Third, the main goal of nonbelievers as far as public policy should not be the destruction of religion, but the separation of religion and public life. We don't want to be forced to adhere to any religious law that doesn't also have a strong secular reason for it (I'm fine with prohibition of murder, theft, and slander, but not with the prohibition of contraception, alcohol, or consensual behavior between adults).

Fourth, I notice that a lot of atheist groups seem to deify "science." They erect monuments to science and such. While I understand the logic, atheism and science are two separate things. Science cannot address the question of "is there a God?" without very clear criteria of what findings would absolutely support or refute it. For me personally, some of the things I have learned and seen in my scientific career have filled me with awe of a nature that I can only call "religious," but I do not worship science. Science is just a tool, inherent in the laws of reality, by which truth may be discerned.

That said, in the case in Oklahoma, for example, I do support the Hindus and Satanists who want to erect monuments. It's not so much that I'm an oikophobe, but in the USA evangelical Christianity is trying to do truly outrageous things. Already there was a (fortunately short-lived) attempt to declare Christianity the official state religion of North Carolina, multiple attempts to mandate prayer in school, multiple attempts to censor scientific education in lieu of creationism, a vigorous fight (still ongoing) against human rights for gays, multiple attempts to suppress other religions (especially Islam). In the USA, Christianity enjoys a special position as the dominant religion and so it enjoys a special position as a target of anti-theist ire.
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ltbewr
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:58 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 7):
Unfortunately, the popular perception of Atheists in the media here is the US is that we're all militants like the folks from American Atheists and the Freedom From Religion Foundation and want all aspects of religion out of our government and public property.

One factor that really causes the 'War on Atheists' is when they challenge the displays of usually the Christian Cross or Christmas crèche scenes on public government land, the use of Christian prayer in public government gatherings, displays of religious symbols on public land. Many of them were put up in the distant past by well meaning persons, some were done in the post-WW II/Cold War era as a symbol of defiance many Americans supported so not to be seen as 'Godless Communists'. Often these lead to costly lawsuits to government agencies, well over $1 Million with appeals up to the US Supreme Court, which angers many as a waste of money.
The other common factor is that many religious persons believe that they will get into heaven easier or for sure if they fight against 'godless' persons (like many try to ban abortions).
 
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fr8mech
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:34 am

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
The reality is that we poor Atheists are singled out and (no pun intended) demonized far more than any other secular group.

Please detail your persecution.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 7):
Unfortunately, the popular perception of Atheists in the media here is the US is that we're all militants like the folks from American Atheists and the Freedom From Religion Foundation and want all aspects of religion out of our government and public property.

Much like to common perception is that all religious folks are proselytizing Bible(or whichever book or scroll is sacred)-thumping that won't rest untill there are no more infidels.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 9):
I'm willing to bet that if a Muslim were to promote Islam we'd see outrage and that the person should keep Islam to themselves.

Here, in the US? Yes, you can expect to see some outrage (kind of a srtrong word), but that's to be expected. The vast majority of those calling themselves religious do subscribe to one of the Christian faiths. But, that outrage, here in the US, would proabably on the level we exhibit when a Jehovah Witness comes to the door.

Now, to be clear...I'm talking about the people, not the government.
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PHX787
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:35 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
Well, the freedom of religion is also the freedom from Religion. And People not caring about Religion and/or not going to church must not necessarily be atheists.

That needs to be analyzed more closely.

The fact that atheists are demanding public celebrations of a holiday to cease, when they are probably not the majority of that populace, is quite disturbing.

The whole "War against Christmas" and this new war against "Atheists" simply needs to go.


Can we look at Japan again for a minute?

We have 2 different religions coexisting together- Buddhism and Shinto. We also have Christians and Muslims. And Atheists.


nobody in this damn country gives a damn whenever someone celebrates a religious holiday. Hell, my buddies and I celebrated both Ramadan and Passover here without so much as a single complaint from others-

And this is reason number 50000000 that I love Japan.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:47 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
The fact that atheists are demanding public celebrations of a holiday to cease, when they are probably not the majority of that populace, is quite disturbing.

Being in the majority should have nothing to do with it. If I made up my own religion, DeltaMD90ism, and it was harmless and didn't break any laws but the government and the rest of the country/majority was against it and tried to ban it, is that right?

There are a multitude of issues but most center around the government funding or hosting some type of religious ceremony/display/icons/etc. While I think most people are under the opinion of "let it be" and don't care to fight it, those fighting it often do have points and the Constitution is technically on their side... majority support or not
 
WestJet747
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:16 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
The fact that atheists are demanding public celebrations of a holiday to cease, when they are probably not the majority of that populace, is quite disturbing.

Which atheists are demanding public celebrations of a holiday to cease? I can guarantee you an overwhelming of atheists don't care. The ones who do care are those militant types who most atheists dislike. They represent atheism much in the same way the WBC represents Christians, or Al Qaeda represents Muslims.

If you're referring to religious symbols in government, then I don't think I need to remind you that your country is supposed to have that whole "separation of church and state" thing which seems to be widely ignored when inconvenient for religious politicians, so there is a reasonable argument by atheists in that respect.
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Max Q
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:22 am

Yes, it's tough to be an Atheist in the USA.


Most people here are, if not fanatically so then very religous, and they will let you know, in no uncertain terms how much 'better' they are for their obsession.


I believe Religion is the most damaging, destructive force on the planet.
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Ytraveller
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:44 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
Can we look at Japan again for a minute?

We have 2 different religions coexisting together- Buddhism and Shinto. We also have Christians and Muslims. And Atheists.

nobody in this damn country gives a damn whenever someone celebrates a religious holiday. Hell, my buddies and I celebrated both Ramadan and Passover here without so much as a single complaint from others-

Japan is quite different from the United States.

According to Wikipedia, in the year 2011, 67% of the Japanese were nonreligious; 22% practiced Shinto/Buddhism; 2% practiced Christianity; and 3% practiced other religions. The largest religions, Buddhism and Shinto, focus on nature, the simple things in life, and achieving salvation through merit; some other religions believe in a mastering supreme being and being absolved of sins through prayer.

However, I partly see that religion itself is not always the cause of all this destruction in the world. In my opinion, religion is often used as a cover-up or justification for something else. So this large amount of nonreligious people in Japan may not necessarily be behind Japan's relative absence of crime and peaceful coexistence; Japan is also one of the most ethnically/racially homogenous countries on Earth. So there are other factors.

One example is that the KKK used Christianity to justify racial segregation back in the 50's. It was really that they looked at African Americans as dark-skinned scum, that looked like monkeys. Today, most believe Christianity supports racial equality. Maybe there are Bible, etc. verses out there that support racial segregation, slavery, etc. (haven't read it), like how there are ones that condemn homosexuality, and maybe we used our inner morality to ignore those verses.

At least that's how I see it.

[Edited 2013-12-14 21:07:55]
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:52 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 7):
I think that most Atheists in the US are of the type that don't believe in God (or the existence of God) but aren't critical of those that do believe in God, and aren't looking to force the government to remove "In God We Trust" from our money, the 10 Commandments from government buildings and even Christmas trees and menorahs from public spaces. Many of us still celebrate Christmas and Easter, as these holidays are more about getting together with family and friends, as that was some of the original intentions of the non-Christian seasonal celebrations before they got co-opted (There's no mention of a Christmas tree in the Bible....).

   I think what I find about the topic is that here in the US if somebody says they are "not religious" or "not observant of religion" most people don't think a thing of it because we all have friends or family like that.
But, when someone uses the word "atheist" oooooooooh tends to trigger a negative reaction. Stupid!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 20):
atheism isn't a thing; it's a lack of a thing.

Right. So if a person doesn't believe in G-D, why do they need a label such as "atheist"? Why can't they just be themselves?
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
BMI727
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:24 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 21):
some were done in the post-WW II/Cold War era as a symbol of defiance many Americans supported so not to be seen as 'Godless Communists'.

It's a shame Communism got conflated with atheism. One of them is possibly the worst idea and most negative influence man has ever conceived. The other is atheism.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
Can we look at Japan again for a minute?

I don't think the closed and ultra conformist culture of Japan is something to be emulated.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
allegiantflyer
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:32 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 13):
Just live your life the way you want and stop caring about what religious people think or say. That's really the point of atheism, isn't it?

its kind of hard when government officials weed in religion into the political system and it messes up everything for us non-religious people (i.e. gay marriage in the USA) literally the only thing conservatives have to back up why it shouldn't happen is some sort of religion influenced idea.
 
sccutler
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:44 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 2):
That Position is difficult to maintain in the USA, except in the large cities of the east and the west

How so? Be specific, cite examples - share your experiences.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
According to many religious folks, freedom of religion is applicable as long as you believe in a deity. If you don't, then that rule doesn't apply to you.

About whom do you speak? Be specific, cite examples - share your experiences.

Quoting moo (Reply 6):
I'm a Christian, couldn't give a crap about what someone else is doing so long as its not illegal. Same goes for every Christian I know. We certainly dont have an issue with atheists, but many of them sure do seem to have an issue with us...
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 13):
'm a Christian, couldn't give a crap about what someone else is doing so long as its not illegal. Same goes for every Christian I know.

Sorry, but that's a whole lot of BS.

What is the BS?

Is Moo's claim of being a Christian BS?

Or do you believe Moo is lying when he writes that he could not give a crap about what someone else is doing as long as it's not illegal?

Or, are you saying Moo is lying when he writes that the same goes for each Christian he (MOO) knows?

Or, perhaps, you know every Christian with whom Moo is acquainted and, with your exceptional soul-piercing skills in play, you've established that each Christian with whom Moo is acquainted does, in fact, give a crap about what someone else is doing?

Help us understand your point of view.
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DocLightning
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RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:00 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
The fact that atheists are demanding public celebrations of a holiday to cease, when they are probably not the majority of that populace, is quite disturbing.
Nobody is demanding that.

They are demanding that it not happen with their own tax dollars. And that's fair.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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sccutler
Posts: 5843
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:11 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):

They are demanding that it not happen with their own tax dollars. And that's fair.

Yep.

Among the many things on which government money should not be spent, one finds religious displays.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
SA7700
Posts: 2930
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:38 pm

RE: The War On Atheists

Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:26 am

As this thread evolved into a flamefest between believers versus non-believers it will be locked for further contributions. Please do not start a follow-up thread without the consent of the moderators.

Thanks and regards,

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)

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