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AA7295
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Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:46 am

I was watching a documentary the other night about how many people die each year in the US because they could not obtain an organ transplant, it was something like 6,000.

This got me into some research. There are systems in Europe, like Spain and Austria that have an opt-out system, where you have to manually opt-out of the organ donation program vs Opt-in systems like Australia and the US where you have to manually opt-in. The effectiveness of of the opt-out system is something ridiculously like in the 90-th percentile, clearly demonstrating that in these opt-out countries, you have a significant higher chance of receiving an organ.

Also, my research shows that the demand for organs far outstrips the supply. This got me thinking, how on Earth is this possible? Think of how many people who are healthy die each day, but they aren't on the organ donation register. Why aren't world governments actively promoting the benefits of organ donation and encouraging citizens to do so. What better gift to give to someone?

What are your thoughts? Do you think we should be headed to an opt-out system, where if you really have a problem with donating your organs, than you are free to do so. I think this is largely an awareness issue.
 
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CrimsonNL
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:22 am

I'm definitely a supporter of the opt-out system. I've been a registered organ donor ever since I turned 18. Each year there are massive campaigns here in the country to get people to sign up, but still the number of registered donors is ridiculously low. It takes less then 5 minutes to register but apparently it's too much to ask for a lot of people. With the opt-out system, people with objections will likely take the 5 minutes to register their preference. All the others who simply are too lazy to register can then be seen as donors.

It seems ridiculous to me that people die because others didn't register their preferences. Family members often don't know or don't like the idea so a lot of good organs go to waste!

Martijn
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romeobravo
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:07 pm

Opt in.

A basic civil right.
 
Mir
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:23 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 1):
It seems ridiculous to me that people die because others didn't register their preferences.

   I'd be short a parent at this point were it not for an organ donor, so I feel quite strongly that anything that increases the number of organs available for transplant is a very good thing.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
Opt in.

A basic civil right.

No, nobody is having their rights violated by having an opt-out system. What does it matter to you if your organs get used for transplants? You're dead - you're not going to know the difference. Meanwhile, someone else somewhere will NOT be dead, which will matter a whole heck of a lot to them and to their family. If you really feel that strongly about it, then just opt out (which would be a very simple thing to do).

-Mir
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rfields5421
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:40 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
nobody is having their rights violated by having an opt-out system.

The United States has not progressed emotionally to the point that an opt-out system has a chance of being implemented. Even if a person opts in, their surviving next of kin can say no organ donations in most places.

We need for ministers, clergy and schools to educate people on the need for organ donation. And it is going to take a generation for such education to have a significant change in people's understanding.

Also, even if you have an opt-out system - the logistics issues of a nation the size of the United States or Australia will keep a great many possible organ donors from being used.

Even in my family home county in southern Arkansas - there is no capability for harvesting major organs. The deceased would have to be air transported within a short time of death to a major trauma hospital in Little Rock or Shreveport, currently at the expense of the deceased family.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
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moo
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:56 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
No, nobody is having their rights violated by having an opt-out system. What does it matter to you if your organs get used for transplants? You're dead - you're not going to know the difference.

Shall we also move to an opt out system for necrophilia, because after all what does it matter to you because you are dead?

Alive or dead, its still my body and it should be plundered only when i explicitly agree to it being plundered.
 
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mbmbos
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:30 pm

Last April, when my best friend died, I was responsible for funeral arrangements. At his family's request, he was a donor, and his eyes, skin and even some bones were harvested for living people in need. As difficult as the process was I am glad my friend could provide life to others even though his own was beyond saving.

That being said I think an opt-out system is fraught with issues. For many people - including those who belong to specific religions and cultures - the human body is sacred and such an act would be a desecration. Couple that with the simple fact that people just don't think or plan ahead (don't believe me, well, how many of us have a will?) and you've got a formula for disaster.

I can imagine grieving families fighting government over the fate of a loved one's body just because that loved one didn't get around signing an "opt-out" document. And as much as I support the organ donation program I think the feelings of a family freshly confronted with sorrow comes first.
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Francoflier
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:39 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 5):
Alive or dead, its still my body and it should be plundered only when i explicitly agree to it being plundered.

Hence the feasibility of 'opting-out'...

Again,
No one is trying to force people to don their organs. The idea is just to facilitate the process for those who do want to do it.
As it happens, there are quite a few people who would agree to don organ while alive, but never get around to formalize the thought, or just don't know how to do it. These are the people that system would target.

Everyone else can easily keep their corpses pristine, so as not to disappoint the worms, presumably.

Admittedly, it would take a comprehensive education and information campaign to bring the entire population up to speed on what is at stake, but the benefits in terms of lives saved would be tremendous.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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moo
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:03 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):
Again,
No one is trying to force people to don their organs. The idea is just to facilitate the process for those who do want to do it.
As it happens, there are quite a few people who would agree to don organ while alive, but never get around to formalize the thought, or just don't know how to do it. These are the people that system would target.

Then perhaps the powers that be should be targeting them through ad campaigns et al rather than dragnetting everyone and expecting people to actively do something to opt out.

Your argument about people never getting around to doing something equally applies to opting out, and I think that is MUCH worse than failing to opt in.
 
drew777
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:13 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):
The idea is just to facilitate the process for those who do want to do it.

My understanding is family members over-riding the donor's choice postmortem is the biggest problem. I've made it clear to my parents and wife to let them cut away once I'm gone. How they would actually handle that request, moments after I've passed, is anyone's guess.

Any doctors or nurses on here to refute or confirm that?
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:40 pm

Opt in. My body, my choice. And lazy people should be afforded that right nonetheless. Allow donors and/or their families to profit from donation and your shortage will go away. I find it absurd that hospitals, doctors and insurance companies can profit off of organ donation, yet the actual donor and their families are legally prohibited from being compensated in most countries. I am pro organ donation, but compelling or trying to trick people into donating is the wrong way to go.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:47 pm

I should say that my wife, myself and all four of our adult children have opted-in for organ donation - and made it very clear to everyone in the family that is our choice, our desire, our hope that we can help someone after we are gone.

Unfortunately some of the drugs I have to take will greatly limit possible recipients of my organs.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:27 pm

It should be said that in many opt-in countries, if there is a consensus in the immediate family against donating organs, doctors usually observe it even though they are not legally required to.

Quoting moo (Reply 8):
Your argument about people never getting around to doing something equally applies to opting out, and I think that is MUCH worse than failing to opt in.

You're already dead. You're not going to be deader for failing to opt out, whereas someone who might have lived will die... I don't think your outcome gets to be labelled "worse."

Quoting roswell41 (Reply 10):
I find it absurd that hospitals, doctors and insurance companies can profit off of organ donation, yet the actual donor and their families are legally prohibited from being compensated in most countries.

It isn't absurd. Imagine a scenario where you and your significant other, who makes medical decisions on your behalf when you can't, are going to get a divorce and can't stand each other, whatever the reason. You really want that person to decide whether to keep you alive or collect the profit from your death?
 
aloges
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:29 pm

Opt-in,

with the caveat being that you cannot receive any donated organs, blood or similar items if you opt out. If you're unwilling to donate your own organs, do not count on the generosity of others.
Make everyone decide once they turn 18 on penalty of losing all access to public healthcare and give them access to educated advice and factual information on the issue. Accept no decision but that of the individual, the opinions of friends and relatives are irrelevant. Include clear and simple information about their choice in all personal documents such as ID cards, passports, driving licences and healthcare cards.
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Mir
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:50 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 5):
Shall we also move to an opt out system for necrophilia, because after all what does it matter to you because you are dead?

Is there a public benefit from necrophilia? If not, there's your answer.

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 6):
For many people - including those who belong to specific religions and cultures - the human body is sacred and such an act would be a desecration.

Fine. Then let them opt out.

-Mir
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Tugger
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:13 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 13):
Opt-in,

with the caveat being that you cannot receive any donated organs, blood or similar items if you opt out.

I like the simplicity of this idea. If one does not want their body desecrated when they are dead, why should they want their body desecrated when they are alive? It is a simple choice, either your are open to and accepting of the standard of organ exchange or you are not, either is fine by me (and yes I am sure some people would game the system but that is a separate discussion).

Tugg
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petertenthije
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:42 pm

Make it mandatory that it has to be listed on your drivers license whether you are for or against being an donor. That way any adult that passes for a driving license has to make the choise. If no choise is made, no driving licence. That way you could even give some very general information on organ transplants during the theoretical part of the driving education. But make that class free of charge, driving education is expensive enough as it is.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:57 pm

Opt out.


Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 4):
We need for ministers, clergy and schools to educate people on the need for organ donation.

"Don't take your organs to heaven. God knows we need them down here."

You cannot put it in a simpler way...

Quoting moo (Reply 5):
Shall we also move to an opt out system for necrophilia, because after all what does it matter to you because you are dead?

In my own personal opinion - do with my body that best fulfills the needs of the surviving people. I don't think necrophily will rank high in those needs. If my body cannot even be used for science or an art project or prepared for public exhibitions (like "This happens if you jaywalk"), then my body should be handed over to necrophiliacs.

Yes.

I also solemnly swear that my body should be left to rot in place if more than three signatures are needed in order to get my body a proper burial.

Quoting aloges (Reply 13):

Yes, but also enact a waiting period. People who opt in as soon as they get liver cirrhosis need to be reminded somehow.


David

[Edited 2013-12-22 11:02:38]
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
ROSWELL41
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:11 pm

Or we can adopt the Chinese way and simply harvest organs from executed prisoners and sell them to the highest bidder. No matter the scenario devised, we are simply arguing about how to allocate a scarce resource. I say provide a financial incentive to the donor and you will have more organs. I worry more about doctors and hospitals who would wish to harvest my organs because they profit off of the transplant than my surviving family pulling the plug on me prematurely.
 
Ken777
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:26 pm

I would support an opt-out system, but believe that there needs to be a very comprehensive database of people who have an illness that would disqualify them. I've had 3 cancers and (with the last one being this past January) shouldn't be donating blood or body parts for a while.

In terms of donations, by sister died (or medical malpractice) a couple of years ago and her husband signed on for donations. She was kept on life-support overnight so the 3 recipients (2 kidneys & a liver) could come in, Unfortunately when they stated harvesting they found that the Doc who gave her CPR broke some ribs that punctured the intestines and the organs were not usable. Basically that last incompetent Dr essentially killed 3 more people. The ones who were sent home might have gotten another organ, bur somewhere down the list there were 3 people who didn't make it,

I still think about those 3 people and it really enforces my belief in donations. Unfortunately a lot of people only face the issue when a family member is dying of trauma and someone at the hospital has to talk to them about donating. There will be someone at the hospital who will have to bring the option of donation up at a horrible time for the family. At those times an opt-out situation is easier on the family.
 
romeobravo
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:23 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 5):
Shall we also move to an opt out system for necrophilia, because after all what does it matter to you because you are dead?

I was about to say something about wills and inheritance, but i can't beat this.   
 
aloges
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:07 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 20):
I was about to say something about wills and inheritance, but i can't beat this.

You're not exactly giving yourself a compliment there. The comparison is absolutely asinine.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
LittleFokker
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:26 pm

I would support an opt-out system. I fail to understand why dead bodies are so dang sacred - it's just rotting flesh. If someone is really that sensitive to not allowing their organs to be used after death, then the onus should be on them to take the precautions to ensure that it doesn't happen.

On a side (but partially related) note, I'd be in favor of digging up cemetaries. It's an archic, ancient tradition that has no bering whatsoever on modern society, and cemetaries take up far too much land in our world.

You can treasure the soul and the spirit of the deceased as much as you need to your heart's desire. The body is just wasted, rotting flesh and isn't that sacred.

[Edited 2013-12-22 15:37:13]
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
luv2fly
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:48 pm

I still think about those 3 people and it really enforces my belief in donations. Unfortunately a lot of people only face the issue when a family member is dying of trauma and someone at the hospital has to talk to them about donating. There will be someone at the hospital who will have to bring the option of donation up at a horrible time for the family. At those times an opt-out situation is easier on the family.


My sister in law was shot and killed by her then husband and my boy friend still talks about being approached for an organ donation, was a horrible time made that much worse by being approached and even hounded during a very difficult time.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
redtailsforever
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:34 am

I'm all for donating my organs. I don't need them if I'm gone, so give them to a six year old with their whole life to think about.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:17 am

Quoting moo (Reply 8):
and I think that is MUCH worse than failing to opt in.

What is much worse, if you ask me, is seeing people in the prime of their lives, sometimes children, die because of organ failure, knowing there are a great deal of potentially transplantable organs being burned away or fed to the maggots.
But I guess this is where our views differ.

Quoting drew777 (Reply 9):
My understanding is family members over-riding the donor's choice postmortem is the biggest problem.

That is certainly another problem that the authorities should look at. I think the will of the donor, especially if it has been clearly voiced while alive (such as getting a donor card) should legally and always override any objection from the family.
The opt-out system would make this a little more subtle, however, but there could be several levels.
The person who didn't opt-out but went through the procedure for getting a donor card or clearly stated in his will he wanted to be a donor should have the final overriding word.
In the case of a person who didn't opt out but never made his intentions clear, then the family should be able to ultimately decide.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
romeobravo
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:15 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 21):
You're not exactly giving yourself a compliment there. The comparison is absolutely asinine.

Oh terrific, you're back.

Care to expand?
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:58 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 26):
Oh terrific, you're back.

I also welcome him back. 
Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 22):

This reminds me of the Roman Catholic's stance towards the World War I dead. If somebody has been blown to bits and pieces, will the bits and pieces go to heaven? Or will the full body be restored when entering paradise?

Told in a simplified manner, they decided for the latter option. Which would also help to reconcile organ donations with one's beliefs - you'll be complete in heaven anyway.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
aloges
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:02 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 26):
Care to expand?

You need me to expand on how comparing organ donations to necrophilia is asinine?   
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
romeobravo
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:28 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 28):
You need me to expand on how comparing organ donations to necrophilia is asinine?

That's very simple. These are 2 events that could happen after you death.
 
cptkrell
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 22):
On a side (but partially related) note, I'd be in favor of digging up cemetaries. It's an archic, ancient tradition that has no bering whatsoever on modern society, and cemetaries take up far too much land in our world.

You must watch, then, the 1965 movie "The Loved One", a satire on the funeral industry. One of the best films I have ever seen. Rest assured there is something in this film guaranteed to offend anybody. My cup of tea (or shot of Jack Daniels, as the case may be). To your point, there is a scene when Jonathon Winters (the Blessed Reverend Glenworthy, owner of Whispering Glades Cemetery) states to his board of directors..."There's GOT to be a way to get these stiffs off my property!"

To the thread point; I believe in specifically voting your own intentions, "In OR Out". Not a difficult thing, even if you haven't totally made up you mind yet (you can always change your mind). Allowing the state to make the decision to donate your organs automatically if you haven't specified your choice runs sort of parallel to the "implied consent" laws when getting your license and I believe in the case of organ donation it would be overstepping authority. In the case of an underage child, it should be the parents/guardian decision. In the case of mental non-capacity, it should be the next of kin decision.

Some good points have been made in the previous posts, however I still believe in no case should it be the government's decision.
all best; jack
 
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Tugger
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:27 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 17):
Yes, but also enact a waiting period. People who opt in as soon as they get liver cirrhosis need to be reminded somehow.

I don't think the waiting period is appropriate, as I said, I am sure some will game the system and their conscience will be fine with denying others yet taking from others but that will be an example to others as well. I am certain that it will be held up to scrutiny the more it happens.

I think the simple idea of opting in or out in a wholesale fashion, you choose whether you want to "opt-in" to being available for organs transfers, from you to others or to you from others, is a very simple and powerful idea. If you believe organ transfer is wrong or not for you, then that is fine you don't have to receive any transfers from other people, you make you decision to not opt-in to the often vital lifesaving concept. And it must be a part of a publicly discloseable record of some type so that others understand why doctors or the hospital did not offer it as an option, you make a statement to others about it and I am OK with that.

It is a simple and powerful idea.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 29):
Quoting aloges (Reply 28):
You need me to expand on how comparing organ donations to necrophilia is asinine?

That's very simple. These are 2 events that could happen after you death.

You mean the idea that while necrophilia may not do any real harm it is demonstrative of a person that may be sick and perverted and it also helps no one, yet organ donation is neither demonstratively sick nor perverted and can help many, many people? You mean you have difficulty understanding that simple difference? OK.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
romeobravo
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:38 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 31):
You mean you have difficulty understanding that simple difference? OK.

What makes you say that?  
 
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Tugger
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 32):
What makes you say that?

This post/response:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 26):
Quoting aloges (Reply 21):
You're not exactly giving yourself a compliment there. The comparison is absolutely asinine.

Oh terrific, you're back.

Care to expand?

It appeared to show that you were not understading why the compairson was asinine. Perhaps you needed to clarify what you were seeking to have expanded on? Perhaps I misunderstood you.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 5):
Shall we also move to an opt out system for necrophilia, because after all what does it matter to you because you are dead?

Moo I'm sure people are lining up around the block to get a piece of you when you're dead, for the rest of us however......I don't think there's anyone waiting for me to die to have a go at my rear end.

Dead is dead so why not let someone with a chance of living live, with some bits of you. I not fussed, I just wouldn't want my skin or eyes removed, someone else can have the rest.
 
romeobravo
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:36 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 33):
It appeared to show that you were not understading why the compairson was asinine.

The comparison isn't asinine.

You either get the benefit of the doubt about what happens to your body once you die, or you don't. If one's justification is "who cares, you'll be dead" well then you could apply that to anything.

I personally believe you should get the benefit of the doubt, it's your body, in life and death.
 
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zckls04
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:44 pm

When you say "opt-in" or "opt-out" what you're really asking is "what is the default choice when no explicit decision is made". The answer is to have neither opt-in nor opt-out, but to force the question to be asked of everybody with two clear options, yes or no. The option to not specify should not be given.

There are a few different places you could do this- as a condition of receiving a driver's licence, ID Card, acceptance of a tax return, getting an SSN or National Insurance card etc. That depends on the country you're in.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
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Tugger
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:47 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 34):
Moo I'm sure people are lining up around the block to get a piece of you when you're dead, for the rest of us however......I don't think there's anyone waiting for me to die to have a go at my rear end.

You know, you could be thinking the wrong side... rigor mortis could offer some options you aren't thinking of....     

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Mir
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 35):
You either get the benefit of the doubt about what happens to your body once you die, or you don't. If one's justification is "who cares, you'll be dead" well then you could apply that to anything.

The benefit of the doubt should be that you want to help other people keep living. If you have other priorities, then there's nothing wrong with you saying so.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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Tugger
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:59 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 35):
The comparison isn't asinine.

You either get the benefit of the doubt about what happens to your body once you die, or you don't. If one's justification is "who cares, you'll be dead" well then you could apply that to anything.

I personally believe you should get the benefit of the doubt, it's your body, in life and death.

Well, I am sure you understand that you don't actually get to decide what happens once you die because.... well you're dead. You get to state your wishes for what you want to happen, but that's it. Even when expressed in a legal document your decisions do not hold the same weight as those of the living (which is why you select an executor that hopefully holds and will defend your wishes) and your wishes can be and are often enough are not followed.

And I can't really disagree with the "benefit of the doubt" element, as I have stated I am fine if you wish to not receive or provide organ transplants. But as that indicates it does mean that if you don't opt-in then you also don't get the option to receive organs if you might need them. If you feel strongly about the integrity of your body and that your organs should remain your organs and stay in your body at all times, that is your prerogative. However I do not agree that you finding necrophilia to be equatable to organ transplant in any significant way as reasonable, but that is your opinion and I have no reason to try and change it. I was merely pointing out why some/most would find it asinine.

Tugg

[Edited 2013-12-23 10:36:08]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Mir
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:13 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 36):
The answer is to have neither opt-in nor opt-out, but to force the question to be asked of everybody with two clear options, yes or no. The option to not specify should not be given.

That's what either an opt-in or opt-out system is - the only difference between the two is what happens with someone who happens to fall through the cracks (which will inevitably happen).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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zckls04
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:58 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
That's what either an opt-in or opt-out system is - the only difference between the two is what happens with someone who happens to fall through the cracks (which will inevitably happen).

-Mir

No, it's not the same. An opt-in system is where you have to specifically go out of your way to opt in, and only to opt in (such as in the UK and most other countries I know, also in Calfornia) . Similarly an opt-out system is one where you must specifically go out of your way to opt out, and only to opt out (such as Spain, Austria and Belgium). The problem in these systems is not people "falling through the cracks" but the vast majority of people who simply do nothing and default to whatever option the system dictates.

The system I suggest above does not favor either response- it is equally arduous to opt in as to opt out. The only option which requires extra effort (by fraud, being an undocumented citizen, not filing your taxes etc) is not to answer the question, which is the opposite of the system above. Yes, there would be a few people who fell through the cracks, but they would be a tiny minority compared to those above.
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Tugger
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:58 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 41):
The system I suggest above does not favor either response- it is equally arduous to opt in as to opt out. The only option which requires extra effort (by fraud, being an undocumented citizen, not filing your taxes etc) is not to answer the question, which is the opposite of the system above. Yes, there would be a few people who fell through the cracks, but they would be a tiny minority compared to those above.

But if it were to be done the way I am suggesting, that if you wish to be eligible for organ transplants you must opt-in to the organ transplant list.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
nickh
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:38 am

I completely respect and understand people's choices whether or not to choose to donate an organ. There are many reasons, religious or otherwise, why someone would not want to do so.
However, please allow me to tell you my story.

When I was in my 20s, I had to receive a liver transplant due to a congenital issue. I am in my early 50s now, and due to the immunosuppressant medications that I have been taking for so long (Cyclosporin and Prograf-FK-506), I have also had to get a Kidney transplant.
Because of the medication, which causes a lack of calcium in my bones, I shattered my left hip and it was amputated from the hip down to the knee. I use a wheelchair to get around, and sometimes I can use a cane for short distances.
And, I also have Chrons' disease.

If it were not for the kindness and generosity of the organ donors who helped me, I would not be here today.

Being a double organ transplant patient and leg amputee changes a lot in one's life - there are a lot of things that I used to enjoy that are no longer possible - Flying*, hiking, swimming, cross-country bicycling, etc. but you learn to adapt - and sites like A.net let you live vicariously through others' lives... [smile].

I am an organ donor myself, but due to the medications that I am on, the choices of what they can use are somewhat limited. But I hope that when I am gone, I will be able to help someone else as someone has helped me.

Organ donation helps a lot of people in true need - I was never an alcoholic, I never did drugs, I never smoked - I really have had congenital issues and was vetted by the transplant team long before they ever approved my application for a transplant, so it is not something that one can just walk off the street and purchase. Well, perhaps in some Asian/Middle Eastern countries.

My intention is not to change anyone's mind about organ donation, but do understand that it helps a lot of people who truly can use the help.

-Nick

*Flying: Before I lost my leg, I was lucky enough to solo in, or fly left/right seat in the Cessna 152, 172, 182RGII, 201, 210P/T, Grumman Cheetah, Grumman Tiger, Bellanca Super Viking, Mooney 201 (M20J), Piper Archer, Piper Warrior, Cessna Grand Caravan Turbine, DeHavilland Twin Otter, Cessna 412, Piper Cub.
Unfortunately, I doubt that due to medical reasons and lack of the leg will allow me to get my FAA medical, at this point.
"We all have wings, but some of us don't know why..."
 
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zckls04
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:06 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 42):
But if it were to be done the way I am suggesting, that if you wish to be eligible for organ transplants you must opt-in to the organ transplant list.

I'm not overly keen on that idea. I don't like the idea that you could have people refused organ transplants on the basis of a decision they might not have really thought about at all at the time. Humans don't tend to be good at forward planning (c.f. people who refuse to buy health insurance), and their deaths would affect others besides themselves. Everybody deserves a second chance.

I think I'd cautiously support prioritizing people who are on the organ transplant list for transplants, all other things being equal, but I don't like the idea of those who aren't being refused entirely.
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Maverick623
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:08 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
What does it matter to you if your organs get used for transplants? You're dead - you're not going to know the difference.

What does it matter where your estate goes to when you die? You're dead - you're not going to know the difference.


And yet every civilized country protects the right of a person to specify where his holdings go after death (excluding taxes).
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Mir
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:24 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 45):
What does it matter where your estate goes to when you die? You're dead - you're not going to know the difference.


And yet every civilized country protects the right of a person to specify where his holdings go after death (excluding taxes).

Because your estate and your organs are two completely different things. Your surviving family can use your estate. Because organs have a short shelf life, unless one of your surviving family needs an organ at the time of your death and you and they are a compatible match, they can't use your organs. So the more accurate comparison is of a case of where the estate goes if there is no will and no next of kin.

And wouldn't you know, in that scenario the estate becomes the property of the state. I don't see why this should be any different.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AirCanada787
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:52 am

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 16):
Make it mandatory that it has to be listed on your drivers license whether you are for or against being an donor. That way any adult that passes for a driving license has to make the choise. If no choise is made, no driving licence. That way you could even give some very general information on organ transplants during the theoretical part of the driving education. But make that class free of charge, driving education is expensive enough as it is.

I like the idea of having to answer the question. Here we have to choose when we sign up for or renew a healthcard. You have to answer the question to complete the application so it works well. You can choose not to be a donor, choose to donate everything or choose to donate specific tissues and organs.
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:42 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):

And wouldn't you know, in that scenario the estate becomes the property of the state.

It most certainly does not.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Organ Donation - Opt-In Or Opt-Out?

Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:25 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 5):
Shall we also move to an opt out system for necrophilia, because after all what does it matter to you because you are dead?
Alive or dead, its still my body and it should be plundered only when i explicitly agree to it being plundered.

  

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 6):
That being said I think an opt-out system is fraught with issues. For many people - including those who belong to specific religions and cultures - the human body is sacred and such an act would be a desecration. Couple that with the simple fact that people just don't think or plan ahead (don't believe me, well, how many of us have a will?) and you've got a formula for disaster.

  

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):
No one is trying to force people to don their organs.

Yet, they most certainly do and will, here in the US.

There are all kinds of loopholes the 'harvesting" industry uses here in the US to get around what you want done with your body. One of their favorite ways to do it is to refer to the body as "brain dead". A term the medical industry "invented" in the late 1960's to give the harvesting industry a boost. But, let's not use the term "after I am dead" because they will send in the rip and tear crew to plunder your organs while you are still alive. They want your heart while it is still beating. The eyes can wait a bit and the bones and skin can go longer. At least you certainly are dead after they cut your heart out while still beating.

There is nothing wrong with donating organs if that is what you want to do.
The problem is how the "harvesting" industry operates. Very sneaky people.
And, news flash, no matter what you request on your drivers license, if they want your organs they have devised loopholes in the law and if you do not have iron-clad legal documents they will find a way to take your organs anyway. Believe it. It happens every day, and I am in the position to see what is really happening. Not the "sterile" version that is fed to the public.

There is a guy that makes the talk-show circuits and tries to educate people about what the "harvesting" industry is all about. Of course, the Medical Lobby is so big and powerful this guy gets brushed-off like some kind of little thorn in their side. The plain truth is what he speaks and it is to the benefit of the uninformed public to hear what he has to say.

I am going to get his information and post it here in case anyone is interested.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"

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