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AA7295
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Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:28 am

I work with a lot of entrepreneurs, mostly American. One common trend in ALL of them, is they detest paying taxes. I never understood. Maybe because my homeland, I can see that paying taxes, pays for my healthcare, my nation's defense, the infrastructure. These 'treps, go out of their way to avoid paying any amount, so far as setting up shell corporations in Panama to eliminate their tax obligations and repatriating it back to America through legal loopholes in the tax code.

Let me add, I FIRMLY believe it is the government's fault for allowing this to happen. Why the hell, in 2014, are there loopholes that allow US citizens living abroad to earn over $1 million in America and pay practically no tax, when people working at Walmart and Costco earning borderline poverty salaries have to pay tax. I mean, you're not going to pay more than you have to in taxes, so the government should remove these ridiculous unfair loopholes.

It's not right, it's sickening how some people can't connect the dots that taxes pay for civic service, roads, infrastructure, investment and the government is allowing it.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:39 am

Nationality doesn't come into it: nobody likes paying taxes. Doesn't matter whether you're an entrepreneur or ordinary worker. The wealthy have options, the rest of us are left to work the system as best we can.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:42 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 1):
Nationality doesn't come into it: nobody likes paying taxes.

No true, Scandianvians love paying taxes, especially the Norwegians. They're smart enough to see the benefits in paying tax and are more interested in the collective good than the individual.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:52 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
No true, Scandianvians love paying taxes, especially the Norwegians

Hmmmm . . . I wonder are you confusing "love paying taxes" and "prepared to pay taxes"?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/janetnov...ds-to-find-tax-cheats-from-norway/
 
BMI727
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:59 am

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
I work with a lot of entrepreneurs, mostly American.

In American politics there is an insidious line of thinking that one should pay for government services based on what they do with them.

If you go to public school and use that education to become a millionaire you should automatically pay more than someone who got that same education and then took a minimum wage job for twenty years. They got the same education and service from the government, the difference is not in the government.

It's a flawed way of thinking that leads to some people trying to socialize value and wealth created by the efforts of a few. It's a subversive philosophy.

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
Let me add, I FIRMLY believe it is the government's fault for allowing this to happen.

That's why the country should move to FairTax, which would remove all corporate and income taxes and replace them with a national sales tax on retail purchases. No loopholes and it's easy to collect plus everyone would pay it, but only in the amount they wish. It would be completely optional, just don't buy things. It would also help end having a small portion of the country bankrolling everyone else.

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
It's not right, it's sickening how some people can't connect the dots that taxes pay for civic service, roads, infrastructure, investment and the government is allowing it.

In this country those costs include a ton of social programs that return basically nothing to the people funding them. It is a very damaging dynamic that too much of this country decide can basically vote themselves money from someone else's pocket.
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nighthawk
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:15 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 1):
Nationality doesn't come into it: nobody likes paying taxes. Doesn't matter whether you're an entrepreneur or ordinary worker. The wealthy have options, the rest of us are left to work the system as best we can.

based on the OP's experience, it sounds like it might be more prevalent in America than in most other countries. While tax evasion is a problem in all countries, some seem to be worse affected than others.

Americans tend to be a lot more weary of the government than others, as can be witnessed by the uproar over Obamacare for example. They would rather pay no tax and look after themselves.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:01 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 3):
Hmmmm . . . I wonder are you confusing "love paying taxes" and "prepared to pay taxes"?

Love, they keep on voting in parties who like top increase taxation when they have the opportunity to vote for parties who want to decrease it, so I'd definately say love.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:06 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
which would remove all corporate and income taxes and replace them with a national sales tax on retail purchases.

So most corportations would get away without paying any tax as they would be able to pass the sales tax onto the consumer.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:27 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
So most corportations would get away without paying any tax as they would be able to pass the sales tax onto the consumer.

Hence why it's a terrible idea that only appeals to cranks. Like a lot of things here, the idea (which is not at all new or original of course) gets a lot of airtime, but almost zero traction where actual voting is concerned. The result is that people will keep "coming up" with this idea every twenty years or so, but fortunately it will never be acted upon.

On the plus side, it probably sells its share of bumper stickers and tag brackets.


As for your topic, I don't get it either. Most people who make real money here understand that taxes are a vital need if we're to continue as such. Do I "like" paying the percentage I do? Not especially, but as paying less means making a lot less, I'm happy to live with it. Only a complete tool would make a budget based off of pre-tax "income" anyway and fail to realize that taxes cannot be day-dreamt away. Personally, I do not understand the behavior, as (for me at least, and likely most people) it's much easier to simply make more money and shore up the difference if having a given amount is that important. But hey, to each their own. If bitching about it feels better than earning the difference back, that's their right, lol.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:40 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):

A national sales tax to replace all other taxes. This would be ugly, because it favors the super-well-off. Even relatively well-educated, well-earning people would be punished.

An example... somebody is a high school teacher (12'000 $ pre-tax monthly pay, full time job, Switzerland). He can invest about 20% of his money, I guess. The rest he spends. The average sales tax rate in the EU is 22%.

12'000 * 0.8 * 0.22 = 2112.

Makes 2112 $/month in taxes, a yearly tax sum of 25344 $. When my father earned 12'000 $/month, he had to pay about 12'000 $ in yearly income taxes, and about 500 in monthly sales tax (the rate was 5% in Switzerland then). Makes 18'000 $/year handed over to the state.


David

[Edited 2014-01-08 04:41:35]
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Braybuddy
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:28 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 6):
so I'd definately say love

Not Odd Nerdrum, one of the country's best known artists:

http://www.thelocal.no/20120627/norw...gian-artist-jailed-for-tax-evasion
 
photopilot
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:29 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
It is a very damaging dynamic that too much of this country decide can basically vote themselves money from someone else's pocket.

No, what the real damaging dynamic is that causes the most trouble are lobbyists. When corporations can BUY themselves politicians and BUY themselves special tax treatments. That is the major root cause of much of the political gridlock.
 
bristolflyer
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:31 pm

The loopholes in the US tax law bug the snot out of me. There are so many tax deductions that you can claim it's just ridiculous. Got an old shirt that you no longer want? Donate it to Goodwill and claim a deduction! Got a worthless car? Do the same!

I agree with the OP - this is mostly the government's fault.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:48 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
It is a very damaging dynamic that too much of this country decide can basically vote themselves money from someone else's pocket.

Sounds like you want a return to the days when only homeowners are allowed the vote. American doesn't listen to the poor voters anyway as they don't fund political campaigns, it's only the wealthy and corporate doners that have any sway.
 
Fabo
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:00 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 9):
An example... somebody is a high school teacher (12'000 $ pre-tax monthly pay, full time job, Switzerland).

...Made me do a double take... a Swiss teacher, making just a tiny bit more than a Slovak one? Only then I noticed that it was monthly, not yearly...

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 9):
Makes 2112 $/month in taxes, a yearly tax sum of 25344 $. When my father earned 12'000 $/month, he had to pay about 12'000 $ in yearly income taxes, and about 500 in monthly sales tax (the rate was 5% in Switzerland then). Makes 18'000 $/year handed over to the state.

That seems pretty low amount, but I suppose it works for Switzerland (which is great, btw.)

Trouble with sales tax would be that it would be nowhere near amount needed to collect. Even supposing take-home pay would be higher, the prices would go way up due to neccessary heavier taxing, while favouring disproportionally corporation and the extremely wealthy.
Both of these groups would purchase abroad, thus alleviating the sales tax, lost income which could not be gotten back from import duty for different reasons (including dependence on imported goods from China etc).
Corporations will also lose incentive to move potential income to other uses that benefit community or country - uses such as R&D, charity, or investing into growth will lose the appeal.
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Revelation
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:16 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Because some people's world view is about themselves being the 'makers' and others being the 'takers'. Of course they feel that the makers are good and righteous and the takers are lazy and sinful. The righteous makers then must hoard everything they have to deprive the sinful takers of any resources in the hopes that all just 'self-deport' or find some other way to cease to exist. The 'makers' rapidly forget that they themselves started out in life as takers and many others have 'built it' and continue to 'build it' for them.

Interestingly enough, many of these 'makers' claim to be Christians...

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
In American politics there is an insidious line of thinking that one should pay for government services based on what they do with them.

If you go to public school and use that education to become a millionaire you should automatically pay more than someone who got that same education and then took a minimum wage job for twenty years. They got the same education and service from the government, the difference is not in the government.

It's a flawed way of thinking that leads to some people trying to socialize value and wealth created by the efforts of a few. It's a subversive philosophy.

It's a flawed way of thinking to take something that quite often acts as a social welfare entity and judge it as if it was a purely capitalist entity.
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romeobravo
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:12 pm

Because i don't like being forced to give my money that i worked hard for to buy votes for politicians.

Taxes are an economically inefficient way of funding mostly inefficient services.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 8):

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
So most corportations would get away without paying any tax as they would be able to pass the sales tax onto the consumer.

Hence why it's a terrible idea that only appeals to cranks.

All corporations pass their taxes onto the consumer. Corporations can't pay taxes, only people can pay taxes.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:14 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
That's why the country should move to FairTax, which would remove all corporate and income taxes and replace them with a national sales tax on retail purchases.

Which will be between 32% and 37.5% in the US, with your state sales taxes added on top of that. With no 'exemptions' for food, medicine, etc.

So your $50 of groceries will cost you - $71.25

Your $10 pizza will cost you - $14.25

Your new $30,000 car will cost you - $42,750

Though that's in Texas with 8.25% sales tax - your state may vary higher or lower.

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 12):
There are so many tax deductions that you can claim it's just ridiculous. Got an old shirt that you no longer want? Donate it to Goodwill and claim a deduction! Got a worthless car? Do the same!

The problem with the above is that it is based on old ideas that are no longer true.

President Reagan's tax laws greatly reduced the number and type of deductions people could take. Before those laws, I had to spend dozens, probably over one hundred, hours going over all kinds of receipts and such. A long lengthy complicated tax return.

Once the deductions were eliminated, the process goes much faster, and I actually pay less tax dollars.


The standard deduction is $6,200 dollars for a single taxpayer for the 2013 tax year.

Unless a person's deductions add up to that much, it is stupid to try to do such things.

Also, such donations increase your 'potential fraud' score and thus increase the likelihood of an audit.

Charity donations 'in kind' are very likely to be audited if they are a substantial amount. If you give more than $500, you must have an itemized written receipt from the group receiving the goods. If your deductions are over $5,000 - you must have a written appraisal of the 'fair market value'.

The total given to charity in property cannot exceed 30% of a person's AGI.

For an old shirt - you might be able to list its value at $1, more likely you better go with 50 cents in value. That old car is likely going to be valued at less than $1,000. It takes a lot shirts or old cars given away to add up to $6,200 for one person, $12,400 for a married couple.

Charity donations in cash are a big deduction for folks who are wealthy - but they actually have to give the money away - and the amount given is always substantially more than the taxes they would have paid on the money.

The biggest remaining deduction is the medical expense deduction - but that doesn't apply to most taxpayers because you can only deduct medical expenses that exceed 10% of your AGI.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:24 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 16):
i don't like being forced to give my money that i worked hard for to buy votes for politicians.

I would hate that too! But, we're both in luck here, since that's not even close to what's happening. In fact, all taxes really are is the act of paying back what you've borrowed from the gov't.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 16):
Corporations can't pay taxes, only people can pay taxes.

My goodness, man. Please write a letter to this effect to our Supreme Court, as it's part of the basis Citizens United used to lobby them into the belief that Corporations are "people".
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romeobravo
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:34 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 17):
Which will be between 32% and 37.5% in the US, with your state sales taxes added on top of that. With no 'exemptions' for food, medicine, etc.

So your $50 of groceries will cost you - $71.25

Your $10 pizza will cost you - $14.25

Your new $30,000 car will cost you - $42,750

Though that's in Texas with 8.25% sales tax - your state may vary higher or lower.

First of all people would be earning more money because there would be no income tax. Things would also cost less because there would be less tax on businesses.

Secondly, if you put a 42.5% sales tax onto an untaxed item, then prices will not rise 42.5%. To find out how much they will rise you must traverse down the supply and demand curve until the disparity between supply and demand is 42.% of the total price. Then take the price where it intersects demand. That might only be 20% to 25% of what the item costs with no tax.

You will notice that less of these items are now being sold. That's the economic inefficiency of taxation.

The only taxes to my knowledge that don't suffer from economic inefficiency are poll taxes and land value taxes. That's why i'd much rather have those as supposed to a sales tax, especially the latter.

It's a common mistake to assume that because companies and high earners pay tax directly, nobody else is paying these taxes. But indirectly everyone pays for them.
 
romeobravo
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:39 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 18):
I would hate that too! But, we're both in luck here, since that's not even close to what's happening. In fact, all taxes really are is the act of paying back what you've borrowed from the gov't.

Really, that's funny because i've not borrowed anything from my government (other than a student loan which i have paid back). And if i had i would have paid it back long ago.
 
sccutler
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
people working at Walmart and Costco earning borderline poverty salaries have to pay tax. I

Not so at all; in fact, a substantial number of low-wage earners not only do not pay income taxes - they get money paid to them from the public coffers (the "Earned Income Credit"). NB: "Income Tax" does not include payroll taxes - FICA/ Social Security).

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):

It's not right, it's sickening how some people can't connect the dots that taxes pay for civic service, roads, infrastructure, investment and the government is allowing it.

In my experience (I represent businesses, productive employers), they don't mind paying rational taxes for rational services; that is not what we have, though, and the inherent inefficiency and corruption of government is not something which inspires enthusiasm for greater contribution.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):

That's why the country should move to FairTax, which would remove all corporate and income taxes and replace them with a national sales tax on retail purchases.

Common sense strikes again - we might dream!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
In this country those costs include a ton of social programs that return basically nothing to the people funding them. It is a very damaging dynamic that too much of this country decide can basically vote themselves money from someone else's pocket.

They don't simply return nothing to those funding them - if the programs worked, the return to those funding would be inherent and most would not object. Rather, they return, if anything, the merest shadow of value to both the economy as a whole and to the lucky contributors, while lining the pockets of career bureaucrats and their favored constituents.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 13):
Sounds like you want a return to the days when only homeowners are allowed the vote.

Where did you get that from his post? He neither implied nor stated that, and it is inflammatory and offensive to suggest as you have done.
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ArmitageShanks
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:19 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 9):

A national sales tax to replace all other taxes. This would be ugly, because it favors the super-well-off. Even relatively well-educated, well-earning people would be punished.

Why should someone that has been sucessful financially be forced to pay more taxes than someone who has not? That very wealthy person is paying a lot more sales tax on items purchased in the long run anyway AND will most likely use less governmental services through their life time, yet they pay most of the tax.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:27 pm

A lot of Americans see taxes as "wealth redistribution" or as an earlier poster said makers v. takers. To the OP I find it kind of offensive you just targeted Americans, what about the 1.2mm Germans who were found hiding money in Liechtenstein? Lots of reasons why people hide money.

KiwiRob...you've never met my wife. We go on many "harrytur" to Sweden. She hopes the Solberg gov't keeps their promise to eliminate the wealth and inheritance taxes along with lower income taxes.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:42 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 19):
Things would also cost less because there would be less tax on businesses.

Why are businesses going to be exempt from paying sales tax on their supplies, or the goods which they purchase to onsell?

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 23):
She hopes the Solberg gov't keeps their promise to eliminate the wealth and inheritance taxes along with lower income taxes.

I thought they eliminated inheritance tax a couple of weeks ago.
 
mham001
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:45 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
when people working at Walmart and Costco earning borderline poverty salaries have to pay tax.

This is a common misconception. Poor people DO NOT pay income tax. Period. Other taxes, sales tax, car tax, etc, yes.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
No true, Scandianvians love paying taxes, especially the Norwegians. They're smart enough to see the benefits in paying tax and are more interested in the collective good than the individual.

Right. If that were true, electric cars would not be so popular in Norway.
 
mham001
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:55 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 9):
A national sales tax to replace all other taxes. This would be ugly, because it favors the super-well-off. Even relatively well-educated, well-earning people would be punished.

The rich are the ones spending the big money, I don't see your argument. In the scenarios presented, food and basic services are omitted.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 17):
So your $50 of groceries will cost you - $71.25

I have never seen a proposal that taxed food. That is a straw man argument.
 
romeobravo
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:59 pm

Why should food and healthcare be exempt?

That just leads to an overconsumption of food and healthcare - already a major problem with healthcare.

Apparently something like 40% of food produced gets thrown away.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:13 pm

Well, most states do tax food.
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casinterest
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:14 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
It's not right, it's sickening how some people can't connect the dots that taxes pay for civic service, roads, infrastructure, investment and the government is allowing it.

People don't see the intrinsic vs explicit costs of items. Everyone wants someone else to pay, but at some point a fair and equirble distribution has to be worked out. Last year, my company and I paid more into social security, retirement and medicare than some 40 % of Americans made for the whole year.

I understand progressive taxes and why we need them. I benefited from them as a kid and college student. As I can pay more I do. Not everyone is poor their whole life, or on welfare their whole life, but some out there would believe it is most all the poor.


There are some that probably would think people should go to jail for being poor. Remember debtor's prisons ? The problem with that is that it costs money. And where do you get the money from? More taxes, and it would be a progressive one on the rich to oppress the poor.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:31 pm

Personally, I don't see it as makers vs takers, although there is abuse in the takers arena that bugs me. I think many of us hate seeing our tax dollars go to such wasteful things. I think if we had a functional healthcare system, effective safety nets, and a right-sized military, people would be happier paying taxes.

But what do we see? Buying tanks for random countries, fighting a war with no clear objective, a healthcare system that may or may not do well at all, etc
 
rfields5421
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:34 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 26):
I have never seen a proposal that taxed food.

Then it is not a flat tax.

That puts the proposal back into the categories of special interests and exemptions and higher tax rates for others.

And all the complexity that makes current taxes such a pain.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 19):
First of all people would be earning more money because there would be no income tax.

People might have larger checks/ paydays. However they will not have more money. What was previously deducted and now appears in the paycheck will be spent at the checkout counter.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 19):
Things would also cost less because there would be less tax on businesses.

None of the flat tax proposals call for eliminating taxes on corporations.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 26):
The rich are the ones spending the big money,

Most to many of the really big ticket items of the rich are not subject to sales tax because the items are purchased by corporations, not by the individuals. It is pretty easy to avoid sales tax on aircraft and yachts.

Now the moderately wealthy (say $500,000 to $10 mil per year) do buy a lot of expensive, sales taxable, items.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 25):
Poor people DO NOT pay income tax.

For single taxpayers - the income tax rates are:
10% of income - $0 - $8,925, plus
15% of income - $8,926 - $36,250, plus
25% of income - $36,251 - $87.850, plus
28% of income - $87,851 - $183,250.....

Married/ Joint are close to twice that amount.


Presidents Reagan and Bush (2) raised the standard deductions to now $6,200 for single, $12,400 for married/joint.

That along with the personal exemption ($3,900) means that a single person who has an income under $10,100 pays no income tax. Money over $10,100 is taxed.

For married joint - the income has to be $20,200 before they start owing income tax.

My father - age 88 - makes $10,308 from a company pension, and $780 per year from the state volunteer firefighter pension. A little interest income and his Total AGI is usually about - $11,500.

He has to pay about $145 US federal income tax per year and about $22 state income tax.

I would call a single person with an income of $11,500 poor.

Even if you add in his approx. $13,000 per year social security which is not taxable - $24,500 is considered poor most places.

For a married couple with two children - they start paying income tax when their combined income goes over about $28,000 per year.
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mham001
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:58 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 27):
Why should food and healthcare be exempt?

Because it dis-proportionally affects the poor when a much. much larger pecentage of their purchases are for basic living.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 28):
Well, most states do tax food.

I don't remember ever paying sales tax on unprepared food. In several states. May have happened in NY and NJ, don't remember.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 31):
For single taxpayers - the income tax rates are:
10% of income - $0 - $8,925, plus
15% of income - $8,926 - $36,250, plus
25% of income - $36,251 - $87.850, plus
28% of income - $87,851 - $183,250.....

And you know as well as I that that "income" as defined in the Tax Tables has little to do with actual income. Anecdotaly, my ex-wife once received over $2,000 more than she paid just by virtue of having one child.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:17 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 32):

And you know as well as I that that "income" as defined in the Tax Tables has little to do with actual income. Anecdotaly, my ex-wife once received over $2,000 more than she paid just by virtue of having one child.

It has a lot to do with income. Those tax tables apply once all the taxable income is measured . Then credits are applied.

2000 for one child? I think not unless the child was Siamese. There is a 1K deduction on each child. . Now if you include day care costs, then that is another matter, and that applies as a reduction in taxable income.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:22 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 32):
I don't remember ever paying sales tax on unprepared food. In several states. May have happened in NY and NJ, don't remember.

AK, DC, MT, NH, and OR do not have sales tax so you would not any of those places. States that do tax unprepared foods with exemptions or reduced sales tax are, AL, Ar (1.5%+) , GA (3% max), Guam, HA, ID, IL (1%+), KS, MS, MO (1.25%), NC (2%), OK, SD, TN (5%), UT (4%), VA (2.5%). Of course that does not include local municipalities and counties that can add sales taxes to whatever they want. Here in AZ there is no sales tax state mandated on unprepared food, but there is a sales tax on food in most counties/municipalities.
 
romeobravo
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:26 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 32):
Because it dis-proportionally affects the poor when a much. much larger pecentage of their purchases are for basic living.

Hehe was i was being slightly facetious, although at the same time, quite serious.

However, it doesn't disproportionately affect them - It proportionally affects them. Exempting food and such would disproportionately affect the better off and disproportionately benefit the poor.

[Edited 2014-01-08 10:27:40]
 
wingman
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:29 pm

Idiocy is in plentiful supply in the United States, possibly even fixed and utterly inelastic. This is a nation that believes it's a democracy when in fact it is nothing but a Bentley republic ruled by wealthy special interests. This is how the wealthy, despite all of these evil taxes, are getting wealthier at an exponential rate (regardless of party in power), and now own a higher proportion of US wealth than at any other time in history. The 1% are the most pitiful group of thankless wankers yet devised by Darwinism, and many would argue that it's Darwinism that made them that way and also put them in charge of the most powerful government on Earth. When rich people complain about taxes they aren't serious, they just complain because it's hard-wired into their DNA. This country's tax regime is the greatest thing for rich people since Cocaine, it's purpose built to drive money into the hands of an ultra-wealthy niche while the vast majority of Americans get poorer and poorer at their expense.

Anyone in the 1% complaining about life in America really does need to be punched in the face.
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:16 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 36):
Idiocy is in plentiful supply in the United States, possibly even fixed and utterly inelastic.

And you say after that sentence is ignored because it makes you look like a buffoon. Congrats. But at least the folks over in Spain have their economy, employment, and tax issue worked out... oh wait.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:48 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 36):
This is a nation that believes it's a democracy when in fact it is nothing but a Bentley republic ruled by wealthy special interests.

We're a republic, not a democracy. Not sure where you get the idea that we think we're a democracy.

Quoting wingman (Reply 36):
Anyone in the 1% complaining about life in America really does need to be punched in the face.

In many of our largest cities you need to be a one percenter to even think about owning a home.

Quoting wingman (Reply 36):
Idiocy is in plentiful supply in the United States, possibly even fixed and utterly inelastic.

Might want to get your own house in order before you declare idiocy to be plentiful anywhere outside your country's bankrupt borders.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
cptkrell
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:00 pm

To the OP's question, I don't mind paying taxes as long as they are used for good. A defense mechanism is nice (although fraught with a myriad of waste) and I like public roads and highways along with scraping snow off them as just a few examples. I (and I don't think anybody else) likes to see tax money getting pissed away. I'm sure that I don't have to list even a few examples here.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 21):
In my experience (I represent businesses, productive employers), they don't mind paying rational taxes for rational services; that is not what we have, though, and the inherent inefficiency and corruption of government is not something which inspires enthusiasm for greater contribution.

My thoughts exactly, as stated above.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 28):
Well, most states do tax food.

Well, here in Tennessee we certainly do on foodstuffs (although the rate was dropped to 5% not long ago). Tennessee's regular sales tax rate is 9.75%, however we pay no state income tax.

I might say that although a flat tax seems desirable to some for many reasons, look at the trillions of accountants that would be put out of business   . More unemployment.

Quoting armitageshanks (Reply 37):
Quoting wingman (Reply 36):
Idiocy is in plentiful supply in the United States, possibly even fixed and utterly inelastic.

And you say after that sentence is ignored because it makes you look like a buffoon. Congrats. But at least the folks over in Spain have their economy, employment, and tax issue worked out... oh wait.

Check mark, check mark.
all best; jack
 
Maverick623
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
when people working at Walmart and Costco earning borderline poverty salaries have to pay tax.

Too bad they don't.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
mham001
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:47 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 34):
AK, DC, MT, NH, and OR do not have sales tax so you would not any of those places.

California does not tax unprepared food and I'm pretty sure Washington (or used to be).

Quoting casinterest (Reply 33):
It has a lot to do with income. Those tax tables apply once all the taxable income is measured . Then credits are applied.

Key word is "taxable" income. I just looked. Last year, I lost $30,000 in taxable income between Lines 22 and 43. And the fact, as you note, that there are then a multitude of credits (for rich and poor alike) further discredits the claim that the tax tables infer actual income or taxes paid. They don't.
 
Arrow
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:14 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
These 'treps, go out of their way to avoid paying any amount, so far as setting up shell corporations in Panama to eliminate their tax obligations and repatriating it back to America through legal loopholes in the tax code.

Without knowing any more details about your "treps", is it possible that they resent tremendously the U.S. policy of levying income tax on citizens who live abroad? In your case, those treps presumably are living and working in Australia and therefore are paying taxes in Australia -- which is fair and reasonable. What is not fair and reasonable is for the U.S. to superimpose income tax obligations on top of that, simply because they are U.S. citizens. No other civilized country in the world does that -- the rest all tax the folks that live and work in the country, but not the ones who leave.

There are 6-7 million American expats who are so PO'd they are flocking in droves to renounce their citizenship, so they will have to pay taxes only in the country in which they live. These aren't fat cats trying to hide money, they are average joes who are tired of having to spend thousands each year on specialized accounting services, only to prove to the IRS that in fact they don't owe anything. The IRS approach to expats is that they are guilty until proven innocent.

If I were an American abroad, I'd be absolutely furious with my homeland for this benighted tax policy.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:22 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 41):
California does not tax unprepared food and I'm pretty sure Washington (or used to be).

There are only 14 states that tax groceries:

3% - Alabama, Arkansas

1% - Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois

1.225% - Kansas, Mississippi, Missouri

5.5% - Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee

1.75% - Utah

1.5-2.5% depending on location - Virginia

5% - West Virginia
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:34 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 43):
There are only 14 states that tax groceries:

Correct, but there may be locations in other states that have taxes on unprepared food as well because municipalities and counties can institute sales taxes as well. Here in Phoenix there is a sales tax on groceries.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:41 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
In American politics there is an insidious line of thinking that one should pay for government services based on what they do with them.

If you go to public school and use that education to become a millionaire you should automatically pay more than someone who got that same education and then took a minimum wage job for twenty years. They got the same education and service from the government, the difference is not in the government.

It's a flawed way of thinking that leads to some people trying to socialize value and wealth created by the efforts of a few. It's a subversive philosophy.

You know you're exactly the kind of person he's denouncing, right ? And insidious would apply to your vision, not the opposite.

Are you advocating that everything government provided should be affordable to the poorest citizen, meaning very limited ? Do you think it's easy for companies/entrepreneurs in developing countries (say, in Africa) to find skilled workers, or even just workers that can read and write (and be in good health) ? Do you think that leads to prosperity for anybody ? Didn't you notice that your country with its "socialist" system according to you, has the most billionaires by a large margin ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
AA7295
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:58 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 42):
Without knowing any more details about your "treps", is it possible that they resent tremendously the U.S. policy of levying income tax on citizens who live abroad? In your case, those treps presumably are living and working in Australia and therefore are paying taxes in Australia -- which is fair and reasonable. What is not fair and reasonable is for the U.S. to superimpose income tax obligations on top of that, simply because they are U.S. citizens. No other civilized country in the world does that -- the rest all tax the folks that live and work in the country, but not the ones who leave.

There are 6-7 million American expats who are so PO'd they are flocking in droves to renounce their citizenship, so they will have to pay taxes only in the country in which they live. These aren't fat cats trying to hide money, they are average joes who are tired of having to spend thousands each year on specialized accounting services, only to prove to the IRS that in fact they don't owe anything. The IRS approach to expats is that they are guilty until proven innocent.

If I were an American abroad, I'd be absolutely furious with my homeland for this benighted tax policy.

That's the thing, through FATCA they can actually not pay tax if they live 335 days outside of the America. And no, these treps are living in Malaysia, Singapore, HK, Panama, Costa Rica.

The irony is, FATCA came about to stop this very activity by forcing foreign banks to identify Americans and therfore ensure they file a tax return. The catch is, sure, they can be identified, and file a tax return, but with the loopholes they still end up not paying tax. Again, helps the ultra rich people, but annoys the small fries, like an export working for a bank in say Hong Kong, or a Dubai.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 25):

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
when people working at Walmart and Costco earning borderline poverty salaries have to pay tax.

This is a common misconception. Poor people DO NOT pay income tax. Period. Other taxes, sales tax, car tax, etc, yes.

Yeah... I meant it figuratively speaking. For your literal mind, how about the comparison of someone earning $80k a year as say a marketing manager for a restaurant chain in Michigan, they would pay what 30% tax, so $24k. How does that compare against an American citizen who is making money in the US (from Americans!), making millions per say, and using tax loopholes to not pay any tax.

See where I'm coming from?
 
Arrow
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:31 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Reply 46):
That's the thing, through FATCA they can actually not pay tax if they live 335 days outside of the America. And no, these treps are living in Malaysia, Singapore, HK, Panama, Costa Rica.

Now that's news to me. Any American who lives outside the U.S. is still responsible for filing U.S. tax returns and FBARs -- and that's true whether they live in Singapore, HK, Panama -- or anywhere in the world. What FATCA "loophole" exempts them from tax with a 335 day absence from the US? All Americans are expected to pay U.S. tax on their worldwide income no matter where they live.

The U.S. offers deductions to all Americans abroad -- the FEIE (foreign earned income exclusion) lets them deduct the first $97K of salaried income, and they get credits for foreign tax paid -- but many of them still end up paying US tax because the FEIE and the tax credits don't apply to investment or pension income, and expats can't use any of the tax breaks available to homelanders (e.g. deductions for mortgage interest paid). But the main problem is the incredible form-filing they have to go through -- particularly FBARs -- and that's what's driving the renunciations. FATCA will essentially make life financially untenable for U.S. expats, and my prediction is within a decade they will all have either moved home or renounced.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:00 am

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
One common trend in ALL of them, is they detest paying taxes.

The short answer is that at the core of "Americanism" are too very entrenched principles: deep mistrust of government and dogmatic belief in individualism. You can trace that back to the first colons who were, after all, very often, fleeing religious or other forms of persecutions in their native country.

Throw in a political party with a long history of blaming both government and taxation for all the ills of the world and at the same time doing its best to keep government from being effective and efficient, and we have the result that we have...

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 5):
While tax evasion is a problem in all countries, some seem to be worse affected than others.
Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 16):
Corporations can't pay taxes, only people can pay taxes.

Corporations are people too!

Quoting casinterest (Reply 29):
Everyone wants someone else to pay, but at some point a fair and equirble distribution has to be worked out.

There is no fair tax policy. Whether it is a flat tax or a progressive tax, there are winners and losers. Generally, progressive taxation makes losers out of the wealthy while a flat tax awards this sad distinction to the poorest households. What the proponent of flat tax refuse to admit is the inhumanity of taxing away the poorest incomes even if it means being unable to feed themselves properly.

Personally, if we have to have losers, I prefer they be the ones who can best afford it.
 
wingman
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RE: Why Do People Try So Hard To Avoid Paying Taxes?

Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:57 am

It's just a flag people. The flag selection in your profile is optional here on A.net, not that it matters a shred for the purpose of this discussion. The point remains, this country has the greatest tax regime for wealth concentration ever devised in modern times. Effective tax rates for the wealthy are absurdly low, yet they complain incessantly about taxation. It's vexing, but I'd wager little more than a brilliant smokescreen to disguise the reality of the situation, which is that they own this joint lock, stock, and barrel. How this came to pass and how it continues unabated is what makes the rest of us complete idiots.

And that Boeing717200, is not (I don't think so at least) what the Founding Fathers had in mind when they designed a republican form of government based on free and fair elections and equal rights (the very definition of a Democracy). You can hide behind semantics all day, but this country is a Democracy.

a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

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