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N1120A
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:59 pm

Quoting HT (Reply 46):
The older people get the more lazy they get to throw everything they have installed on their computer overboard just to switch to a new version of Windows.

I don't see that. I get why people didn't want to use Vista. Vista sucked, and XP was much better. Microsoft admitted as much by supporting XP for so long. You could do anything with XP that you could do with Vista, only in a leaner, meaner package.

On the other hand, Windows 7 (and now 8.1) is SO MUCH better than XP that I really don't get why there was any hesitation - especially once the reviews came out.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
TLG
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:17 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 50):
I don't see that. I get why people didn't want to use Vista. Vista sucked, and XP was much better. Microsoft admitted as much by supporting XP for so long. You could do anything with XP that you could do with Vista, only in a leaner, meaner package.

We were talking about that at work recently. Now we hear talk of comparing Windows 8 to Vista. Microsoft supposedly is releasing Windows 9 in October 2014 because of the backlash against Windows 8, similar to how Windows 7 was quickly released because of Vista's problems.

The difference between 8 & Vista though is that 8 actually works. Vista barely worked at release. It's now quite decent thanks to the two service packs released, but at launch it was pretty rough going, especially for computers upgraded from XP.

I make a living on a Windows 8 computer, and I virtually never use the Modern UI. I don't think it's efficient, and the apps in the Store are rubbish (the few that are there). I can see the day when Windows is 100% Modern UI, or some form of it, but the ecosystem is nowhere near ready for that. Look at the Surface RT debacle as an example.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:39 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 50):
On the other hand, Windows 7 (and now 8.1) is SO MUCH better than XP that I really don't get why there was any hesitation - especially once the reviews came out.

Cost is probably the biggest reason in my case. I've been told my old laptop (still working fine) can't handle Windows 8, and much of the old software also isn't compatible with Windows 8 so that has to be replaced. For example I'm still using Office 2003 which is just fine for my purposes but it doesn't work with Windows 8.

Plus the hassle to move files (and any software that may still work) to a new computer.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:13 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 48):
I'm not going to defend Microsoft's Modern GUI, it's adequate to me the few times I do use it, but I seriously have to question the integrity of a person's argument if they are basing it on criticizing Modern when that hardly ever enters into one's life as a Windows 8.x user. At least if one doesn't want it to.

If Windows 8 wasn´t bundled with computer systems, it would not sell at all. Its nice on a cellphone, nice on a tablet computer, but on a desktop? Making a touch optimized OS and adding 20 or so new key combinations is one of the biggest jokes in the computer industry. I can not remember having to use the keyboard that much since DOS. There are few people that like it, its quite obvious from user valuations. Even Windows Vista gets better ones.... and that should tell people all they need to know.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:21 am

Quoting HT (Reply 46):
And then there are those folks out there whose computers just run fine on
XP but lack the ressources (CPU power, RAM, ...) to run W7 properly.

Actually Win7 is supposed to be less resource demanding then XP.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
Goldenshield
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:17 pm

I've been using Windows 8 (8.1, really) since it came out. Learning the keyboard shortcuts has made it easier to use, but I don't feel that I should have to use shortcuts if I don't want to. Oh, and the number of times I've used an App via the home screen? Zero. I don't need. I don't want it, but I'm forced to use it for certain system management items.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:22 pm

I had Windows 8 on this very laptop (Acer Aspire) for about 10 minutes. I tried to understand that new UI, but I lost the game.

Then I installed Ubuntu...

At my workplace, we have Windows 7 since summer 2013. When I came there in 2007, we had XP. One consideration is that we have quite a lot of students from Africa, India and SE Asia here, and they might not work with the newest OSes at home.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
tommy1808
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:03 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 56):
Then I installed Ubuntu...

For many people that is still not an option. Classis Shell (or alike) for Windows 8 and you combine the good or Win 7 and 8 in one OS.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:21 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 57):
For many people that is still not an option. Classis Shell (or alike) for Windows 8 and you combine the good or Win 7 and 8 in one OS.

Oh yes... like there were butlers that switched the light on and off some 150 years ago, I'd need a butler to operate Windows 8 for me...

At least at my environment I can work well with free and open-source software.

And this just made me chuckle: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Windo...usly-Like-a-Linux-One-398582.shtml 


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
tommy1808
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:34 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 58):
At least at my environment I can work well with free and open-source software.

I could too, but the majority of users out there would not be able to install and maintain a Linux based system. Most Windows users haven´t made an informed and voluntary decision to use it, its just what the computer came with.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
HT
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:21 pm

Quoting HT (Reply 46):
BTW, my older machine (a no longer mobile notebook comp.) failed the tests to run Xubuntu from CD and from USB-stick again, but the latest version I tried actually tried to install drivers for the computer's WiFi, only to stall then.
As time allows I will continue in my efforts.

Progress report:
Intenal WiFi on that machine isn't working under Xubuntu.
I then recalled that I must have a Fritz Repeater E300 lying around somewhere, a repeater with a LAN port which is able to work as Client in WiFi network.
It took a while to locate the E300 but once connected to the old computer (and internal WiFi turned off) Xubuntu is using the E300 without problems and further actions from me.
Posting this from Xubuntu installed as file WITHIN Windows XP (I still am not too confident to allow partitioning of my SSD to install Xubuntu in its own partition).

On a even more positive side, Xubuntu is able use the CPU fan the way it is supposed i.e. switching off and on as required, whereas XP just ran the loud fan all the time.
-HT
Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
 
David L
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:37 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 53):
If Windows 8 wasn´t bundled with computer systems, it would not sell at all.

From what I can see, I think 8.1 would. I'm certainly going to switch to it once I've dealt with one or two hardware issues and upgrades.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 53):
Making a touch optimized OS and adding 20 or so new key combinations is one of the biggest jokes in the computer industry. I can not remember having to use the keyboard that much since DOS.

This is with the Modern interface, right? As I understand it, you can set 8.1 to boot into Classic mode and only resort to the Modern interface as and when you want to.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 53):
There are few people that like it, its quite obvious from user valuations.

Fair enough but there does seem to be a lot of misinformation out there. I agree that the initial release was a major misjudgment but 8.1 seems to me largely to have fixed the issues for desktop users.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:55 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 61):
From what I can see, I think 8.1 would. I'm certainly going to switch to it once I've dealt with one or two hardware issues and upgrades.

8.1. is better, but the +.1 increase in the version number is already a bit much. The change from Win 3.0 to 3.1 was bigger. I think even from 3.1 to 3.11 wfw was bigger. It provides less benefit than Windows Vista from SP1 to SP2.

Quoting David L (Reply 61):
This is with the Modern interface, right? As I understand it, you can set 8.1 to boot into Classic mode and only resort to the Modern interface as and when you want to.

I wish. You can´t. You can boot into something that looks like the classical Windows Desktop, but doesn´t have the functionality of one. No Start Menu and with it the best windows 7 innovation, the search in the start menu, went over board as well.... if it was that easy, there wouldn´t be much room for classis shell and such applications.

Quoting David L (Reply 61):

Fair enough but there does seem to be a lot of misinformation out there. I agree that the initial release was a major misjudgment but 8.1 seems to me largely to have fixed the issues for desktop users.

I have 8.1. and i can tell you that you still need extra software to get the productivity of a Win 7 installation and a lot of configuration to make the "tablet surface" go away, as with standard setting the wrong move on the touchpad will take you to the tiled unproductive horrorshow of a gui that has no place on a desktop system.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
David L
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:39 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 62):
You can boot into something that looks like the classical Windows Desktop, but doesn´t have the functionality of one.

No desktop with clickable icons - really?

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 62):
No Start Menu and with it the best windows 7 innovation, the search in the start menu, went over board as well....

When you say there's "no Start Menu", do you mean it doesn't have the same Program Launcher as Windows 7? Everything I've seen about 8.1 tells me that there is a Start Menu, from which you can shutdown, restart, log out, access Control Panel, etc., just as I do with the Start Menu on Windows 7.

I rarely use the Start Search feature - maybe a couple of times a year.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 63):
just as I do with the Start Menu on Windows 7

The "Start" Button of Windows 8.1 does not do anything more than switching into the tablet Gui mode and some useful shortcuts on right click.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
elbandgeek
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 62):
the best windows 7 innovation, the search in the start menu

is still there and is improved dramatically
you hit the windows key
you type
you find what you need
that's it
 
TLG
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:54 am

The issue I have with the Start UI is that everything shows, which makes it difficult to find a certain program. The Windows 7 Start Menu has it collapsed, so it's much easier to lay your eyes on what you're looking for. Yes, I know you can search by simply typing, but you don't always remember what it's called, or else you make a typo which eliminates all pertinent results.

Quoting elbandgeek (Reply 65):
is still there and is improved dramatically
you hit the windows key
you type
you find what you need
that's it

Yes it's still there, but I don't think it's improved. I find the integrated Bing search confusing. It can be difficult to tell exactly what you found. Microsoft needs to better delineate whether a hit is local or online.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:31 am

Quoting TLG (Reply 66):
Yes it's still there, but I don't think it's improved. I find the integrated Bing search confusing. It can be difficult to tell exactly what you found. Microsoft needs to better delineate whether a hit is local or online.

As someone who's recently picked up mac osx, the seachlight (spotlight?) feature does this sooo well and it's been there sooo much longer than windows ever tried to do it. as much as i despise about the mac osx experience, that's one thing they've done well.
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Mst4k
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:09 am

I'm running 32 bit Ubuntu on my former XP machine. I love it, fun to play with except for the flash issue causing the browsers to crash, I would like to find a solution to this problem but in the mean time I'm OK with it. My iPhone is where I take of business, the desktop is only for fun. Eventually I will buy an Apple laptop but if anyone knows how to fix the Ubuntu browser problem or can suggest an alternate version that runs better please let me know. Windows can be thrown in the trash for all I care BTW.
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vlad135
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:34 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 36):
I'm really annoyed at having to stop using Windows XP. I've never had a problem with it and it does everything I need on an old Toshiba laptop that's also always worked perfectly for about 7 years (I've upgraded the RAM but otherwise it hasn't been touched). I understand I'll have to buy a new computer and that almost none of the current software will work with Windows 8 so that will also have to be replaced (I'm still using Office 2003 and it also does all I need...about all I use is Word).

I haven't had any issues running older software on Windows 8. I'm using Office 2007 and an old version of Photoshop, no problems that I can see.
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:14 am

Regarding Start Button in Windows 8.1, if you just left-click it is a simple link to the Start Screen. However, if you right click it offers links to Programs and Features, Mobility Center, Power Options, Event Viewer, System, Device Manager, Network Connections, Disk Management, Command Prompt, Command Prompt (Admin), Task Manager, Control Panel, File Explorer (what was Windows Explorer), Search, Run and Shut Down or Sign Out.

When you install new programs they can install shortcuts on the desktop as in earlier versions of Windows. In a typical installation shortcuts to Internet Explorer and File Explorer are pinned to the taskbar. It is a simple matter to pin other programs as desired.

It is not necessary to have a Microsoft ID unless you wish to use apps like Mail, Calendar and the Store or SkyDrive. If you don't use them you can turn off live tiles, unpin them from Start or even uninstall them, but this needs to be done per user. If they are removed by one user they are still available to another user who logs on to the PC.

While some people might not like change, I suspect the biggest grouse is the absence of (or at least I haven't found) Solitaire and Mahjong.  
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:04 pm

Quoting Mst4k (Reply 68):

I'm using 64-bit Ubuntu on a new laptop (bought in December), but in order to make Skype work, I had to install the sound drivers of the 32-bit version...

I'm sure that you've googled every possibility (and Google is great at discovering advice on the askubuntu or ubuntuusers websites), so I can't give you any advice with that particular problem, sorry.

David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:05 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
As mentioned above, you can try a virtual machine instead.

The XP virtual machine has some serious limitations. It has no firewire or SCSI support. If you are trying to keep a legacy hardware device, it's better to take a real, maxed out XP machine, and isolate it from the internet.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:55 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 48):
I'm not going to defend Microsoft's Modern GUI, it's adequate to me the few times I do use it, but I seriously have to question the integrity of a person's argument if they are basing it on criticizing Modern when that hardly ever enters into one's life as a Windows 8.x user. At least if one doesn't want it to.

Well the average user is not like us, he doesn't fiddle with anything. If the new windows is confusing to him, he will just call it crap.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 70):
While some people might not like change, I suspect the biggest grouse is the absence of (or at least I haven't found) Solitaire and Mahjong.

Wow that's bad, I've got a couple of coworkers that spend ungodly amount of time playing those !

I should get my work laptop soon, it will be equipped with Win7 Enterprise even though it'll be new. Since all the computers in the company use masters made by the IT department, I guess we could switch to 8.1 and configure it by default to be just like 7, on the other hand there is no incentive at all to do that to begin with.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Asturias
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 2:30 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 53):
If Windows 8 wasn´t bundled with computer systems, it would not sell at all. Its nice on a cellphone, nice on a tablet computer, but on a desktop?

It is pretty evident to anyone who has used Windows 8.x that you're espousing total nonsense. I don't mean just as a hyperbole, but actual total nonsense.

Windows 8.x desktop is as it was in Windows 7. That's what I use every day. I know, because I use it, you don't because ... well who knows. Nonsense like that Windows 8.x is good only on tablets or touchscreens is demonstrably wrong.

Asides from keeping the desktop, Windows 8 has a way better task manager than Windows 7, it has better multithreading for multicore processors and processes, it is leaner than Windows 7, starts up faster and is all in all an extremely polished version of Windows 7.

Not only is it adequate as a touchscreen OS if one only stays within the bounds of Modern, but it is a serious power user desktop OS.

Quoting ThunderboltDrgn (Reply 54):
Actually Win7 is supposed to be less resource demanding then XP.

Windows 8.x is less resource demanding than Windows 7. Less bloated and more responsive.

Quoting TLG (Reply 66):
The issue I have with the Start UI is that everything shows, which makes it difficult to find a certain program. The Windows 7 Start Menu has it collapsed, so it's much easier to lay your eyes on what you're looking for.

Press start, write the first letters of what you're looking for.

or

Customize your Start screen so you always have the programs you want and need in front of you. You can even use custom group names.

or

Look at all installed programs in alphabetical order, catagorized with icons and clear labelsþ

I can't imagine how it is easier to use the Start Menu, in fact it is becoming worse every year, with higher resolution displays. That text becomes tiny and those sub-menus even more cluttered. Start Menu is such a mess.
Tonight we fly
 
TLG
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sun Jan 26, 2014 10:53 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 74):
Press start, write the first letters of what you're looking for.

or

Customize your Start screen so you always have the programs you want and need in front of you. You can even use custom group names.

or

Look at all installed programs in alphabetical order, catagorized with icons and clear labelsþ

I can't imagine how it is easier to use the Start Menu, in fact it is becoming worse every year, with higher resolution displays. That text becomes tiny and those sub-menus even more cluttered. Start Menu is such a mess.

Thanks for the tips! However, I happen to be a computer tech and work for a Microsoft partner, and I probably had access Windows 8 long before most of you did. Point 1 doesn't do any good if you don't know at least part of the exact name of the program, and 2 doesn't help for something you don't use all the time, or if you use all the programs often. Point 3 is similar to the Start menu, except worse because the list is longer because it's not collapsed. I think the fact that Microsoft is rumored to bring back the traditional Start menu says that it's worth more than the fanboys seem to think. Did you always think it was such a mess, or did you start thinking that when Microsoft removed it?
 
David L
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:46 am

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 70):
Regarding Start Button in Windows 8.1, if you just left-click it is a simple link to the Start Screen. However, if you right click it offers links to Programs and Features, Mobility Center, Power Options, Event Viewer, System, Device Manager, Network Connections, Disk Management, Command Prompt, Command Prompt (Admin), Task Manager, Control Panel, File Explorer (what was Windows Explorer), Search, Run and Shut Down or Sign Out.

Thank you! It seems an awful lot of current 8.1 users are not aware of this.  
Quoting Asturias (Reply 74):
You can even use custom group names.

Hmm... that sounds potentially quite useful.
 
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Asturias
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:40 am

Quoting TLG (Reply 75):
I think the fact that Microsoft is rumored to bring back the traditional Start menu says that it's worth more than the fanboys seem to think. Did you always think it was such a mess, or did you start thinking that when Microsoft removed it?

I always thought it was a mess. Every iteration, since Win95.

While your points are valid, taken at face value, every single point you made could just as well be used to criticize the Start Menu.

Quoting TLG (Reply 75):
Point 1 doesn't do any good if you don't know at least part of the exact name of the program

That is a weakness of every search based program finding. The Start Menu had exactly the same "problem", but it is only a problem if one uses only this method to find a program. Fortunately there are numerous others.

Quoting TLG (Reply 75):
2 doesn't help for something you don't use all the time, or if you use all the programs often.

Well, technically I guess, but one can put 16x32 programs in the main Start Screen on a 1080p monitor. That's 512 programs. I just can't see that as a problem, every UI element has its limitations, but that's quite a reasonable one.

Quoting TLG (Reply 75):
Point 3 is similar to the Start menu, except worse because the list is longer because it's not collapsed.

Then again, it is larger and easier to see than the Start Menu items. Tradeoffs. Collapsed submenu items are not visible and as such can take a long time to hunt down.
Tonight we fly
 
N1120A
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:54 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 52):
Cost is probably the biggest reason in my case. I've been told my old laptop (still working fine) can't handle Windows 8, and much of the old software also isn't compatible with Windows 8 so that has to be replaced. For example I'm still using Office 2003 which is just fine for my purposes but it doesn't work with Windows 8.

Office 2003 works with Windows 7, so I don't see why it wouldn't work for Windows 8

Quoting ThunderboltDrgn (Reply 54):
Actually Win7 is supposed to be less resource demanding then XP.

It is. Significantly so.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:29 pm

It is not worth upgrading a XP laptop to 8.1. Even the cheapest laptop with per-installed 8 will be much better. You may be able to some software in XP compatibility mode but its hit and miss.

Anti-virus/spyware/malware protection software like Norton/TrendMicro/AVG will continue to provide updates for a while after April 8,2014, but they will not protect from o/s security lapses. You can use it in isolated mode (no internet/no file transers...) until it dies.

[Edited 2014-01-30 11:53:06]
All posts are just opinions.
 
Ken777
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:46 pm

I bought an old XP computer to run two small apps that require a parallel or serial ports - one needs a dongle and the other is software for an original autopap. Outside of that the box gathers dust so I see no need to upgrade. At some point it will be cleaned up and donated.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:12 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 78):
Office 2003 works with Windows 7, so I don't see why it wouldn't work for Windows 8
Office 2003 applications are not compatible with Windows 8
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tommy1808
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:48 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 74):
It is pretty evident to anyone who has used Windows 8.x that you're espousing total nonsense. I don't mean just as a hyperbole, but actual total nonsense.

I do work with Windows 8 thank you very much, about 45 hours per week. And Windows 8.1 since the day it was released. I like the speed, stability.... all nice and good, best technical user experience since Windows NT 4.0 came out, which of course was mostly due to the graphics system being moved into the Kernal space, but still. The Desktop Environment GuI is still a leap back compared with Windows 7.

I make my money with hardware, although industrial, and no one, not a single customer, ever ever asked for Windows 8 on a production system. But many customers asking in panic how long we can supply Windows 7 after trying out Windows 8....... and that mighty surprises me as touch screens are much more dominant in our field and customers hardly ever see the windows Gui.

If you like it, great.... de gustibus non est disputandum. But don´t try to make it seem that having two desktops instead of one, a ton of extra key commends and more clicks for the same task are a leap forward.

Best regards
Thomas

[Edited 2014-01-31 02:50:37]
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
David L
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:37 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 82):
more clicks for the same task

Can you give some examples, since I still have a couple of weeks before I need to commit?

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 82):
no one, not a single customer, ever ever asked for Windows 8 on a production system. But many customers asking in panic how long we can supply Windows 7 after trying out Windows 8

To be fair, a lot of people said the same about switching from XP to Windows 7, via Vista or not.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:34 am

Quoting David L (Reply 83):
To be fair, a lot of people said the same about switching from XP to Windows 7, via Vista or not.

I am talking about Industrial IT Departments developing products for the next 5 -7 years and for that reason usually go for the latest in technology.

Quoting David L (Reply 83):
Can you give some examples, since I still have a couple of weeks before I need to commit?

If you want to start a program you don´t have on your quick start or desktop, there is no start menu to easily get to it. Right click start menu, click search, long way across the screen to the input field, type in the name of the program you want, hope it finds it, click on it. Finally your program is running.
Or start button, switch to toy surface, click "show all apps", scroll about a mile to get to the app/program you want, click on it. If you go there accidentally, out of the box that will happen all the time (at least if you use a touchpad), the only way back afaik is to start a non toy-gui app or Alt+Tab

There is no reason not to use Windows 8.1, as classic shell is free to download and you end up with a combination of what MS did right and what the fucked up.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
David L
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:55 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 84):

Fair enough but I think we're on different wavelengths. I don't think that'll be an issue for me. In the situation you describe, I tend to go straight to Program Files in Explorer, which in many ways is like a more comprehensive All Programs menu.

The IT development environments in which I've been involved have tended to be more cautious with OS upgrades. While some areas always jumped straight in, the majority were not upgraded before a new OS had been thoroughly assessed. Every new version threw up surprises and it's a lot tidier when you're prepared than it is to try to clean up the mess after the event.

Are you sure about the Search feature? A lot of people thought the Start button search in Windows 7 was more complicated than it actually is, i.e. there's no need to click on the text field before you start typing.

I have to say, I think the descriptions by AyostoLeon and elbandgeek are more in line with the articles I've been reading. I have not been put off.  
 
CXB77L
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:46 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 74):
It is pretty evident to anyone who has used Windows 8.x that you're espousing total nonsense. I don't mean just as a hyperbole, but actual total nonsense.

As a Windows 7 user who got Win 7 because I didn't want Win 8, I can't let this one go.

I understand and respect the fact that there are those who prefer the new Windows 8 UI. That's fair enough, but some don't like it. I happen to agree with Tommy, that it works well with a touch screen but I do not think it works well at all without a touch screen. That is not "nonsense" as you put it, that is a personal preference. Your opinion is no more valid than anyone else's. You thought the Start Menu was a mess, I happen to think that it is the best thing to have happened to Windows and I hope Microsoft brings it back as an option.

I agree having a customised start screen is good, but if it cannot be customised to the point that users who prefer the UI of the previous generation can't get what they want, then why bother advertising customisability as a selling point? I want a Start Menu AND a Start Button. I want the Windows 8 UI to be EXACTLY the same as Windows 7. Can I get that in Windows 8? No? Well sorry, Microsoft, I think I'll stick with the terrific Windows 7, thanks.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
tommy1808
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:31 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 85):
I tend to go straight to Program Files in Explorer,

With Windows 8 that is five right, left or double clicks until you can click on the program you want (=6 clicks). Plus evt. two times scrolling to get to the folder/exe file you want. And you need to remember which ones are x86 and which are x64 programs or you end up with even more clicks.
If you place a shortcut somewhere to make it more efficient to get to the program folder, which you could, you are already looking for ways to circumvent the Windows 8 Gui shortcomings and hence my point remains valid. You maybe do like it, some people still use their computer pretty much keyboard only too, but it is not more efficient than the Windows 7 Menu.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 86):
Well sorry, Microsoft, I think I'll stick with the terrific Windows 7, thanks

Windows 8 is really better in performance and stability (if that is even possible), and while it certainly does not justify to pay for an update, i don´t see any reason not to choose it for a new computer, as you can get the best of both with classic shell and alike.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
David L
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:31 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 87):
Quoting David L (Reply 85):I tend to go straight to Program Files in Explorer,

The part of the sentence which you didn't quote changes the context entirely. I don't generally "tend to go straight to Program Files in Explorer". I usually run applications from desktop icons (Windows 8.1 - check) or from the Start Menu (Windows 8.1 - check) .On the occasions, such as you described, that I have to delve into Explorer, I'm usually looking for files, data, documentation, etc., which I created. I'm having a hard time reconciling "serious" usage with the expectation to do everything with a couple of mouse clicks. A "serious" user (e.g. a developer or programmer) should be very comfortable with project structures. It's second nature. The process of finding things in Explorer as you describe usually takes just a few seconds so I've never bothered pinning most of my own work to the Start menu, other than a few finished Exes that I often need to run immediately. I would stick those into the Windows 8.1 equivalent of the Start menu. I always intended to go through the Start Menu in Windows 7 and remove the unwanted clutter but I never got around to it.

Seriously, though I think a lot of us were right about 8.0, the more I learn about 8.1 the more I want it. At the start of this discussion 8.1 didn't have a Start Menu. Then it had a Start Menu but all it did was allow you to switch to the tablet interface. Then it had a Search function but it was awkward to use. Now it has the same system options as Windows 7 plus a few more and a program launcher which is "a bit different" to the one in Windows 7. I think I'll manage.  

Asturias, elbandgeek, AyostoLeon: sold! Thanks for your input.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:36 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 88):
At the start of this discussion 8.1 didn't have a Start Menu. Then it had a Start Menu but all it did was allow you to switch to the tablet interface. Then it had a Search function but it was awkward to use. Now it has the same system options as Windows 7 plus a few more and a program launcher which is "a bit different" to the one in Windows 7. I think I'll manage.

You get it wrong, Windows 8.1 does not have a start menu and clicking on the "start" button does nothing else but switching into the tablet gui. You can right click on the start button and get a *small* part of what a start menu does, giving you access to management functions, run, search and shutdown/reboot. There are *no* programs in that right click menu. Search is weird to use, as clicking on it opens a search field on the other side of the screen. While in Windows 7 what you are looking for sometimes appears right under your cursor after typing the first two letters, in Windows 8 you have to type enough to limit the results to one hit in order to open that with enter, or move the mouse all the way over into the search result field. In my work setup (laptop + 23 inch screen) that is not practical with the touch-pad. In Win 7 you need two left clicks to search, in Windows 8 a right and a left click. While with a mouse left/right click is pretty much no different, on a laptop with a touch-pad it is very different, since you can left click with a tap or pressing the whole pad down, but not right click. In order to right click on a touch-pad, at least all i ever came across, you either have to move your hand to use your index finger or hit the right button with your thumb in a sidewards motion, which increases the chance of developing tendosynovitis in said thumb. It makes for bad ergonomics.
I don´t see any valid reason why the start button context menu should not be available on desktop or task-bar right click, but it ain´t. I consider this context menu another MS usability screw-up in the Windows 8 Gui design. Gui design should strive to minimize mouse movement and click activity, not force the user to make more of those.

You might be able to accept that or maybe even like doing all those extra mouse miles and clicking, but no matter how you turn it, that part of windows 8 remains a step back. There are certainly reasons why classic shell has been downloaded millions of times since the Windows 8 launch and that those downloads makes up more than half of all downloads since it had been invented more than 4 years ago. At that is only counting the official download sites.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Asturias
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sun Feb 02, 2014 1:52 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 86):
I understand and respect the fact that there are those who prefer the new Windows 8 UI. That's fair enough, but some don't like it.

This isn't a question of taste. One may like or dislike the UI, it's up to each person. The claims that people have made about Windows 8.x being better or "optimized" for touchscreen is just wrong. The entire desktop UI, which makes up pretty much the entire user experience in Windows 8.x is 0% "optimized" for touch. It's a chore using the desktop with touch.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 86):
I happen to agree with Tommy, that it works well with a touch screen but I do not think it works well at all without a touch screen.

What? The desktop? It's as mouse-centric as ever.

The Start Screen? It's even more mouse friendly now that the targets are larger and easier to hit with the mouse.

The modern UI? What apps do you need to use in the modern UI? Let's say you do have to use the modern UI on occasion. How does it not "work well" with a mouse? Is it hard to click the huuuge targets in the modern UI? What exactly is the problem?

I get you don't like it, but that doesn't mean it is anything but easy to use.
Tonight we fly
 
David L
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 89):
that part of windows 8 remains a step back. There are certainly reasons why classic shell has been downloaded millions of times since the Windows 8 launch and that those downloads makes up more than half of all downloads since it had been invented more than 4 years ago.

Yes, because of the initial release of 8.0 - with good reason.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 89):
In my work setup (laptop + 23 inch screen) that is not practical with the touch-pad.

No wonder we're in disagreement! For the same reasons you don't like Windows 8 I have always bought a cheap mouse for use with a laptop because there are lots of things that are awkward with a touch-pad. For serious work I always use a desktop. I'm not aware of any serious IT developers that use a laptop except when they need the mobility when they're away from work. As with previous versions, I have no intention of finding out how Windows 8.1 works with a touchpad.  
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 86):
I want the Windows 8 UI to be EXACTLY the same as Windows 7. Can I get that in Windows 8? No?

But where do you draw the line? I'd hate to be stuck with the Windows 3 interface.  
 
tommy1808
Posts: 13487
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RE: Windows XP Support Ends 04/2014. What Do You Do?

Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:19 am

Quoting David L (Reply 91):
I'm not aware of any serious IT developers that use a laptop except when they need the mobility when they're away from work.

I am on the sales end of that business, i know few that use desktop computers  

Even with a mouse, you still have to move more distance and click more than in Windows 7.

Quoting David L (Reply 91):
Yes, because of the initial release of 8.0 - with good reason.

the Windows 8.1 update does not address the shortcomings of Windows 8.0 that classic shell addresses.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6

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