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ImperialEagle
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:14 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 98):
I value a variety of sources from many different slants

As do I. The problem is the "slants" are not "news".

Quoting luckyone (Reply 98):
g if you don't like a source...find another one

You mean one that I agree with all the time? Don't you think the truth might be something I don't want to hear and NEED to ? I do try to take it in from different sources. The only reason I quote so many conservative sources on this blog is because nearly EVERYBODY else quotes the liberal ones and it doesn't hurt for the liberals to hear the other side of the coin even if they don't like it. Since most of the media is also liberal I already hear what they have to say (and don't like it ALTHOUGH I still at least try to be open minded and figure out if there might be any truth to it instead of the immature attitude of "it's not what I want to hear so it must be lies".)

Quoting luckyone (Reply 98):
those neighborhoods formed before the end of segregation laws

Obviously you have never been to Atlanta.
That statement would only apply to some of the oldest and smallest areas of the city because it wasn't until AFTER the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed that the huge influx of blacks from rural areas all over the Deep South began.
Upper Middle Class and Wealthy Blacks fled the inner-city long ago and live in beautiful neighborhoods way out in the 'burbs.

[Edited 2014-02-23 06:10:00]

Also, my apologies if I came off as condecending. I have a dry and sarcastic sense of humor and the computer does not offer voice inflections. Most of the time I am trying to be funny and it just doesn't come across----since I forget people really don't "know" me, which may be the same with others as well. I try not to take this blog too seriously but you know how it is if we are passionate about something. Now if I am going after one of the "haters" that is an entirely diffent story!


[Edited 2014-02-23 06:17:53]
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
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777222LR
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:11 pm

Oh, so you want to allow people to decline services to homosexuals because of your religion? Ok, then the homosexuals don't have to provide you services because of the same reason. How about we make our own country, and all go live there? Follow me on this one: first off, there will definitely be a Starbucks and a Neiman Marcus, amazing restaurants and unique boutique shops, and thanks to the lesbians: a perfectly manicured landscape within 3 months. Another 3 months and rows of geothermal condos and homes with super chic, environmentally friendly interiors will span the land. A year later, the world outside will be wearing burlap bags, eating from cans, wandering around wondering why Walmart sucks, why everyone has to cut their own hair, and why there are no good movies. Two years later, FABUOPOLUS holds the first annual Hunger Games...sponsored by Bravo and hosted by RuPaul.

  Cheers!
 
luckyone
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:20 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 100):
Obviously you have never been to Atlanta.
That statement would only apply to some of the oldest and smallest areas of the city because it wasn't until AFTER the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed that the huge influx of blacks from rural areas all over the Deep South began.
Upper Middle Class and Wealthy Blacks fled the inner-city long ago and live in beautiful neighborhoods way out in the 'burbs.

Obviously not. I just was born and lived there for over twenty years. And your statement of the trend would support my claim that whites still instituted de facto segregation. Legal housing zones were abolished well before 1964, mind you, in 1948 actually, just before we start to see the start of white flight to the suburbs.

My mother's family moved four times before the early 80's, from a small Atlanta neighborhood, to the Candler and McAfee area, then to the area near what is now Henderson Middle School, then Columbia Valley, then again to an area near Covington Hwy and 285. Each time was because a black family moved into the block. Within three years every white person was gone. Finally in the mid 80's my parents jumped from DeKalb Co to Gwinnett, like every other middle class white person in the Atlanta area. Over thirty to forty years attitudes change, and yes it is more common NOW to find blacks in middle class white suburbs. But that did not happen overnight, and racial barriers still exist--my father griped for three years when the first black family moved into our neighborhood. The term "negro removal" doesn't replace "gentrification" for nothing.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 100):

You mean one that I agree with all the time? Don't you think the truth might be something I don't want to hear and NEED to ? I do try to take it in from different sources. The only reason I quote so many conservative sources on this blog is because nearly EVERYBODY else quotes the liberal ones and it doesn't hurt for the liberals to hear the other side of the coin even if they don't like it.

While you may not, there are many who do, and only consider "news" the source providing them their point of view. An example, from just last night, a distant cousin of mine posting on Facebook how "Bob Costis (spelling copied directly) was nothing but a trouble maker and how he's glad he doesn't watch NBC because only Fox is news." I never thought I'd see that in my life, a hard core Cold War redneck criticizing someone for criticizing Russia.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 100):
Since most of the media is also liberal I already hear what they have to say (and don't like it ALTHOUGH I still at least try to be open minded and figure out if there might be any truth to it instead of the immature attitude of "it's not what I want to hear so it must be lies".)

And here we disagree. In my experience, the people who started the complaint of a "liberal" bias by the media as a whole were usually the ones selling you the conservative point of view, and thus stood to profit from it. Fox News wouldn't have come into existence if certain talking heads hadn't spent years telling people that they weren't getting news "Fair and Balanced." I can remember Rush Limbaugh advertising Fox on his radio show in the mid 90's ("Tell you cable company you want Fox news!!")...yeah Rush Limbaugh is completely unbiased.  sarcastic  People on both sides of the political spectrum can be sheep, being conservative and wealthy doesn't exempt you from that. Just as an example, the group that owns the Washington Post brought down both Nixon and Clinton.

[Edited 2014-02-23 08:33:05]
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:23 pm

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 101):
Ok, then the homosexuals don't have to provide you services because of the same reason.

Technically, a homosexual denying service is not religious freedom. The common religious beliefs tell you homosexuality is wrong; homosexuality doesn't tell you religion is wrong (as in, being religious).

Now, if a Muslim or a Jew or even atheists were to use this law against a Christian, then I'd like to see how the tables turn. Religious freedom applies to all, not just Christians (which, apparently, is what both the Kansas House and the Arizona legislature fail to consider).

Quoting 777222LR (Reply 101):
FABUOPOLUS

Hahaha with the capital city being Fiercity
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
luckyone
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Sun Feb 23, 2014 4:34 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 103):
Now, if a Muslim or a Jew or even atheists were to use this law against a Christian, then I'd like to see how the tables turn. Religious freedom applies to all, not just Christians (which, apparently, is what both the Kansas House and the Arizona legislature fail to consider).

Oh wouldn't that just be fantastic for the "War on Christians." Well...dumbbutt...you wrote the law.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:10 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 93):
I'm just saying I can see the case made that there is no right for you to be served lunch by a business and a business has the right to deny anyone.

And I am saying that since 1964, you are incorrect. You cannot discriminate as a private business holder and this was upheld by the Supreme Court.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:11 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 98):
The fact that those neighborhoods formed before the end of segregation laws, discriminatory housing zones, and the persistence of racism and trends like white flight have absolutely nothing to do with it. Racism, prejudice, and bigotry end just like *that*.

No, but why would your parents want their children exposed to growing-up i n a war zone like Candler/McAfee became? Stop and think about how that would have affected you. BTW do you live in a predominantly black neighborhood now? Have you ever lived in a predominantly black area anywhere? I used to live in East Point when it was in "transition" as all the old white folks died off. It was a very interesting education when it became nearly all black. I had never been openly discriminated against because of my race before. It was very interesting.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 102):
Within three years every white person was gone.

Yes. Plenty of whites fled. However, plenty of whites died leaving those residences wide open to whomever wanted to buy or rent them. We are talking about some of the oldest suburbs of Atlanta. I'm surprised you didn't mention Wee Kirk and Gresham Rd. as well.  
Quoting luckyone (Reply 102):
But that did not happen overnight, and racial barriers still exist

Yes they do, and you go right ahead and move into one of the black, middle-class subdivisions and see how welcome you feel. Unfortunately there is plenty of discrimination to go around. I know all about it. When I was growing up there were also the "Hebrew Clauses" in housing contracts. What young people here in the US don't remember and what the revisionist history they are taught never mentions, is that if there was a sign that said "NO Colored" chances are it also said "No Jews" as well. Oh yes, growing up in Atlanta in the 50's, I know all about discrimination. When my parents built in Buckhead in the 50's we had neighbors who were considered "pillars of society" who would not even acknowledge our existence and would have banned us from the neighborhood if they hadn't been afraid of my father.Oh yeah, I know discrimination all right.  
Quoting luckyone (Reply 102):
Fox News wouldn't have come into existence if certain talking heads hadn't spent years telling people that they weren't getting news "Fair and Balanced."

That is just an assumption on your part. That is not a "fact".

Quoting luckyone (Reply 102):
Rush Limbaugh is completely unbiased

Limbaugh is an "entertainer" and not a very good one IMO. However he does have quite the following. He just isn't as slick as Rachael Madow when spreading the hate around IMO.

I don't see an end to discrimination of all types. People are always going to dislike or hate people for something. They will always find some sort of justification. Some people hate "just beacuse". If you ask them what those people ever did to them they couldn't tell you anything. People hate gays who have never even met a gay person. Some of the craziness I heard around Atlanta, when I was a child, is still there after all these years.

[Edited 2014-02-23 11:28:47]
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
luckyone
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 106):
No, but why would your parents want their children exposed to growing-up i n a war zone like Candler/McAfee became? Stop and think about how that would have affected you.

If they hadn't have abandoned it in a panic to sleazy real estate agents who sold it at rock bottom prices to the only people who would buy it (poor blacks) it may not have become that.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 106):
Limbaugh is an "entertainer" and not a very good one IMO. However he does have quite the following. He just isn't as slick as Rachael Madow when spreading the hate around.

Which doesn't diminish the fact that people do not follow him as just an "entertainer."

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 106):
Yes they do, and you go right ahead and move into one of the black, middle-class subdivisions and see how welcome you feel. Unfortunately there is plenty of discrimination to go around. I know all about it. When I was growing up there were also the "Hebrew Clauses" in housing contracts. What young people here in the US don't remember and what the revisionist history they are taught never mentions, is that if there was a sign that said "NO Colored" chances are it also said "No Jews" as well. Oh yes, growing up in Atlanta in the 50's, I know all about discrimination. When my parents built in Buckhead in the 50's we had neighbors who were considered "pillars of society" who would not even acknowledge our existence and would have banned us from the neighborhood if they hadn't been afraid of my father.Oh yeah, I know discrimination all right.

So do two wrongs make a right?
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 107):
So do two wrongs make a right?

I get it. If only we lived in a perfect world------------------
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
Mir
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:07 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 103):
Technically, a homosexual denying service is not religious freedom. The common religious beliefs tell you homosexuality is wrong; homosexuality doesn't tell you religion is wrong (as in, being religious).

And you just perfectly described why the law destroys the 1st Amendment - if religious people can choose who to deny service to but non-religious people can't, that's government promotion of religion.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:39 pm

Here is what I'm wondering... what is the difference between a Christian (against gay marriage) catering for a Christian gay wedding and them catering for a Muslim heterosexual wedding? Think about it... although the Muslim one is between a man and a woman, it is outside the Christian religious belief. Why do they not get butthurt about them "going against" their religious beliefs and helping two people go down the wrong religious path (in their opinion) but all up in arms when it's a gay marriage? Seems like a double standard, I'd say the gay Christians are closer to the religious beliefs of the caterer than the Muslim couple...
 
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seb146
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:06 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 106):
He just isn't as slick as Rachael Madow when spreading the hate around IMO.

Really? You are so surrounded by the millions of Rush listeners who believe without question that he is news. My brother and his father-in-law are that way. They believe whatever Rush says is fact. If he is an entertainer, he is doing a lousy job of it. And losing ratings (and money) for his corporate masters!
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:34 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 111):
They believe whatever Rush says is fact.

I know people like that and I am very quick to remind them that Limbaugh is an entertainer. Like all these political entertainers irregardless of Conservative or Liberal it is ALL about lining their pockets and their employers pockets. It's always about the $$$$.

Figure it out seb. It has nothing to do with the party and everything to do with the $$$$.  
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:06 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 106):
He just isn't as slick as Rachael Madow when spreading the hate around IMO.

People usually point to Rachel Maddow and Lawrence O'Donnell to show how MSNBC is just liberally biased. That may be true, but both programs are not news, but more like political talk shows that happen to cater to the liberals. The same can be said about Rush Limbaugh (with his "talk show"), Bill O'Reilly, and Sean Hannity with their conservative base. All are, IMO, entitled to express news with a bias because at the end of the day, it's their show and they talk about news, not reporting them.

What is wrong, however, is when news anchors (note, not talk show hosts or political commentators) try to interject a view. A news reporter should always stay neutral. Facts are facts, even if you don't agree with them. What's wrong with these channels is that many of their news are reported on talk shows, which (surprise) happen to be biased.

That being said, I'm eager to see when a GOP administration comes in, how these channels will react. Will Fox turn a blind eye to all the wrongdoings of the administration, cover up, and praise it while MSNBC finds the messes?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Mir
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:44 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 113):
That being said, I'm eager to see when a GOP administration comes in, how these channels will react. Will Fox turn a blind eye to all the wrongdoings of the administration, cover up, and praise it while MSNBC finds the messes?

Look to the period 2000-2008 (particularly the latter part of that stretch) for your answers - yes, that's pretty much what's going to happen.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:58 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 113):
That being said, I'm eager to see when a GOP administration comes in, how these channels will react. Will Fox turn a blind eye to all the wrongdoings of the administration, cover up, and praise it while MSNBC finds the messes?

It will be just like these forums. The left will find more outrage in things and be more suspicious while the right will either defend the actions or say that the Dems did the same thing 2008-2016 and the cycle will continue. BUT, for better or for worse, a lot of people on the right are pretty fed up with their politicians. I say for better or for worse because it depends on who replaces them

Go look at the ACA roll out threads for an example of the tables being turned. Without debating the whole ACA, I think we can admit that the roll out was terrible (even the President said so) yet you had some people on this board basically in denial. There is a difference between quenching the exaggerations and flat out denial of any problems the ACA was having.

That's just politics it seems. I've only really paid attention towards the end of GWB's term til now but things seem to be similar to 2007 with the sides flipped (although some elements of the GOP have really gone off the deep end.) I'm sure if the GOP takes the WH in 2016 things will come full circle and we'll be right back to 2007
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:12 am

And while we argue about fools in Kansas that fool in Uganda goes ahead and signs his discrimination policy into law!

From the Times;

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/25/wo...t-to-sign-antigay-law.html?hp&_r=0

And the fools in Arizona. The Gov. will likely veto this one.

[Edited 2014-02-24 18:16:02]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/21/us...s-passed-in-arizona.html?src=rechp


[Edited 2014-02-24 18:16:31]
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
luckyone
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:13 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 116):
And the fools in Arizona. The Gov. will likely veto this one.

Indeed. Both Arizona US Senators are publicly urging a veto. Most businesses in Arizona are against it. American Airlines (the 13th largest employer in the state) is against it. Three of the Republican Senators who voted for it are now publicly stating that they want Brewer to veto it, which means in reality it's 5 or 6 backdoor supporting the veto. When you read between the lines you get something like this "Oh [expletive deleted]. We only passed this to grease our patron's wheel. We didn't think they had whores in the House too and that it would actually pass." This is a political circle jerk and an attempt at posturing that got out of hand quickly. It was going to happen it one state, it was just a matter of which one won the race at the Moron Olympics. You know several states' legislatures are watching this closely and are formulating an escape clause.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 116):
And while we argue about fools in Kansas that fool in Uganda goes ahead and signs his discrimination policy into law!

Quackery is like water. It follows the path of least resistance. The people who are urging this kind of mindset in Africa lost ears in the states. They went somewhere else.

[Edited 2014-02-24 20:18:43]
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:25 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 117):
"Oh [expletive deleted]. We only passed this to grease our patron's wheel. We didn't think they had whores in the House too and that it would actually pass." This is a political circle jerk and an attempt at posturing that got out of hand quickly. It was going to happen it one state, it was just a matter of which one won the race at the Moron Olympics. You know several states' legislatures are watching this closely and are formulating an escape clause.

        

Yeah. That pretty much sums it up!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
sccutler
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:15 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 118):

Yeah. That pretty much sums it up!

...pretty much sums up 95% of legislation filed, for that matter, by each, every and all legislators.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
travelin man
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:09 pm

I must not remember the part of the Bible that said "thou shalt not sell cake to the gays..."

I'm assuming the same people that don't sell baked goods to gay people also don't sell it to divorced people? Or adulterers? After all, aren't all "sins" created equal?
 
PPVRA
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:19 pm

Discrimination is stupid, but so is putting a gun to a shop owner's head for refusing to sell something to a gay person. It's stupid and yes, uncivilized.

Sorry but there is no way around it.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:28 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 117):
Three of the Republican Senators who voted for it are now publicly stating that they want Brewer to veto it,

I don't think it's for the reasons we think. Their logic:

Quote:

"We feel it was a solution in search of a problem," Sen. Bob Worsley, R-Mesa, said in an impromptu news conference outside the state Senate. He was joined by Sen. Steve Pierce, R-Prescott. The two, along with Senate Majority Whip Adam Driggs, R-Phoenix, sent Brewer a letter Monday morning asking for a veto.

"While our sincere intent in voting for this bill was to create a shield for all citizens' religious liberties, the bill has instead been mischaracterized by its opponents as a sword for religious intolerance," the three wrote. "These allegations are causing our state immeasurable harm."
Source

In other words, "we're against this not because it would do our state harm, but because our opponents have seen through it."
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
PPVRA
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:10 pm

The problem with the bill is that it is being pushed through by intolerant religious people. With such class acts behind it it's hard even for me to want to see it passed!


How Freedom Dies by Pat Buchanan:

http://news.yahoo.com/freedom-dies-080000894.html

[Edited 2014-02-26 07:33:56 by SA7700]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Mir
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:52 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 121):
Discrimination is stupid, but so is putting a gun to a shop owner's head for refusing to sell something to a gay person.

Nobody's putting a gun to anyone's head. If they want to be selective about their clientele, they're welcome to run a private service instead of a public business.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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seb146
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:02 am

I heard an interesting point on Randi Rhodes today: if these people are so interested in "religious freedom" and "religious liberty" then where were they when Muslims and Sihks were being attacked?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
luckyone
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:56 am

And now the Arizona Chamber of Commerce is against the bill. Intel has come out against it. Anderson Cooper got one of the supporting Senators to state that there is no discrimination in Arizona, and that there had been no evidence of pressuring Christians.

>Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 122):
In other words, "we're against this not because it would do our state harm, but because our opponents have seen through it."
I basically said as such. They didn't expect it to pass the House. I'm sure they're well aware what the bill will do. I think this bill is going to ultimately backfire (if it passes) in Christians' faces more than anybody because more and more people will find excuses to exclude somebody...and there's plenty in the Bible.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 124):
How Freedom Dies by Pat Buchanan:

http://news.yahoo.com/freedom-dies-0....html

Pat Buchanan is a religious pimp. Watch your wallet when he's around. He's a white Jesse Jackson.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 126):
I heard an interesting point on Randi Rhodes today: if these people are so interested in "religious freedom" and "religious liberty" then where were they when Muslims and Sihks were being attacked?

And if they were so interested in freedom, why aren't they quoting the First Amendment? The answer is they don't know what it says, because they can't see past the noses on their faces. Christians in the United States need this bill to protect their religious freedom in spite of the First Amendment about as much as women needed the ERA in spite of the 14th.

[Edited 2014-02-25 19:59:22]

[Edited 2014-02-25 20:01:03]

While I'm not entirely sure where the satire ends...there's this:
Top
 
luckyone
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:15 am

Sorry for my previous post. I don't know what was going on. I kept trying to edit it and the formatting just got out of whack.
The problem, in my mind, with most of the arguments in favor of the bill is that phrase that social conservatives like to bring out "slippery slope." Where do you stop refusing service to someone based on a religious conviction? I read an article that it was ok to make the cake for a wedding of adulterers because that marriage is still valid in the Bible...And that's where the Bible argument loses me. The Bible also says all sin is equal, so one should not treat one as more permissible than another. The author of one article also states that he expects his cake maker, florist, and wedding planner to celebrate in the wedding with them, and that people should be expected to celebrate those things (because it's important to somebody else's religion), and that people shouldn't be asked to celebrate something they don't believe in. To me...that was a bit of a stretch.


Now Mitt Romney is weighing in.

http://swampland.time.com/2014/02/25...ney-arizonas-anti-gay-legislation/

[Edited 2014-02-25 20:21:10]

[Edited 2014-02-25 20:24:37]
 
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seb146
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:09 am

Quoting luckyone (Reply 127):
they don't know what it says, because they can't see past the noses on their faces

I see it more like: they pick and choose their way through whatever they read.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
PPVRA
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:54 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 124):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 121):
Discrimination is stupid, but so is putting a gun to a shop owner's head for refusing to sell something to a gay person.

Nobody's putting a gun to anyone's head.

You obviously are going to force that shop owner somehow. Force equates to the use of violence.

Quoting Mir (Reply 124):
If they want to be selective about their clientele, they're welcome to run a private service instead of a public business.

How do you go about accomplishing that without letting the undesired clientele know they are not welcome in that shop?

Quoting luckyone (Reply 126):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 124):
How Freedom Dies by Pat Buchanan:

http://news.yahoo.com/freedom-dies-0....html

Pat Buchanan is a religious pimp. Watch your wallet when he's around. He's a white Jesse Jackson.

Thanks for the thoughtful response!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 129):
How do you go about accomplishing that without letting the undesired clientele know they are not welcome in that shop?

They don't tell them about it. Private services work on word-of-mouth advertising, since they're not open to the public.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
PPVRA
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:21 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 127):
The problem, in my mind, with most of the arguments in favor of the bill is that phrase that social conservatives like to bring out "slippery slope." Where do you stop refusing service to someone based on a religious conviction?

Forget religion. It's not about the bible at all. Heck, you can probably find atheists who are homophobes.

The argument is about basic human freedom. The arguments against this bill are encouraging forced servitude and that is wrong. You don't threaten someone to work for you, ever.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:22 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 130):
They don't tell them about it. Private services work on word-of-mouth advertising, since they're not open to the public.

So how do you stop people from telling gays? What if it's a gay person who is still "in the closet"?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Mir
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:33 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 132):
So how do you stop people from telling gays? What if it's a gay person who is still "in the closet"?

You don't, but then the denial of service isn't a problem, since it's not a public business.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
PPVRA
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:37 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 133):
You don't, but then the denial of service isn't a problem, since it's not a public business.

And how exactly is a private business, open to the public, violating someone's rights if they post a sign at the door saying certain types of people (whatever that means) are not welcome?
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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casinterest
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:52 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 134):
And how exactly is a private business, open to the public, violating someone's rights if they post a sign at the door saying certain types of people (whatever that means) are not welcome?

it's called Civil Rights.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:26 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 134):
And how exactly is a private business, open to the public, violating someone's rights if they post a sign at the door saying certain types of people (whatever that means) are not welcome?

So you are ok with this:

 
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seb146
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:07 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 134):
open to the public
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 134):
post a sign at the door saying certain types of people (whatever that means) are not welcome?

You just answered your own question. If they want to discriminate, they should make themselves a private club.

How is it a violation to extend basic rights to EVERYONE? Telling a public business that they have to do business with everyone does not take away any rights from anyone.

Following your logic, you are fine with people denying you service because you display the Brazilian flag.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
PPVRA
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:43 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 135):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 134):
And how exactly is a private business, open to the public, violating someone's rights if they post a sign at the door saying certain types of people (whatever that means) are not welcome?

it's called Civil Rights.

What about the shop owner's civil rights?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 136):
So you are ok with this:

No.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
You just answered your own question. If they want to discriminate, they should make themselves a private club.

Ok, so free speech is ok, but never in public?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
How is it a violation to extend basic rights to EVERYONE? Telling a public business that they have to do business with everyone does not take away any rights from anyone.

Access to a shop is never a basic right. Ever.

And yes, telling a private business that is open to the public they must do business with everyone takes away the right to the business owner to select his clientele. This is obvious!

Quoting seb146 (Reply 137):
Following your logic, you are fine with people denying you service because you display the Brazilian flag.

I wouldn't say I am fine with it. But it's their store, they can do whatever they want with it.

I am not gonna pull out a gun or sue them because they offended me. That would be just stupid!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Mir
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:48 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 134):
And how exactly is a private business, open to the public, violating someone's rights if they post a sign at the door saying certain types of people (whatever that means) are not welcome?

If certain type of people are not welcome, then it's not open to the public.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 138):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 136):
So you are ok with this:

No.

How can you justify allowing someone to refuse gays but not blacks?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
PPVRA
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:54 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 139):
If certain type of people are not welcome, then it's not open to the public.

And how is that a violation of anyone's rights? It's not like the other people going in the business have a human right to be there, they have essentially been invited.

Quoting Mir (Reply 139):
How can you justify allowing someone to refuse gays but not blacks?

The same logic applies to all races, creeds, sexual orientation, eye color, tall or short people, fat or skinny, whatever.

Can't a gay bar be open to the public but only allow gays in? I don't see any problem with this whatsoever.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Maverick623
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:59 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 140):
The same logic applies to all races, creeds, sexual orientation, eye color, tall or short people, fat or skinny, whatever.

I'm not quite sure you understand the question.

Are you okay with a business denying service to gay people? Are you okay with a business denying service to non-white people?

And if you are okay with the first and not the second, why?
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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casinterest
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:03 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 138):
What about the shop owner's civil rights?

He can go private. If he is a public company, he cannot discriminate based on race, color, religion, sex or national origin.
It's the civil rights act of 1964.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 138):
I wouldn't say I am fine with it. But it's their store, they can do whatever they want with it.

Umm no, this was one of the reasons for the Civil rights act.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:23 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 141):
I'm not quite sure you understand the question.

Are you okay with a business denying service to gay people? Are you okay with a business denying service to non-white people?

And if you are okay with the first and not the second, why?

I think any person/business should have the right to deny service to anyone, on any basis.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 142):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 138):
I wouldn't say I am fine with it. But it's their store, they can do whatever they want with it.

Umm no, this was one of the reasons for the Civil rights act.

There is a lot more to the CRA than what we are discussing here in this thread.

[Edited 2014-02-26 12:24:24]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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casinterest
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:34 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 143):
There is a lot more to the CRA than what we are discussing here in this thread.

True, but it applies just as well to this issue, as it was intended to prevent what happened without it, where people who personally objected to other peoples physical or intrinsic differences were discriminatory for no good reason.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 144):
True, but it applies just as well to this issue, as it was intended to prevent what happened without it, where people who personally objected to other peoples physical or intrinsic differences were discriminatory for no good reason.

What happened without the CRA was a huge change in hearts and minds that led to sufficient support for the CRA to be passed. Let's not overlook this. Of course it didn't happen everywhere at the same time, but every union state didn't abolish slavery at the same time, either. Or every country, for that matter.

The CRA was largely about ending coercion. This thread is about the act of coercion necessary to force a business owner to serve every person that walks in their door.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Tugger
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:45 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 91):
Fox is not talk radio.

Actually you are wrong (either that or Fox does not know what its business is (and yes, Fox is FoxNews):
http://radio.foxnews.com/category/talk/

Quoting Mir (Reply 109):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 103):
Technically, a homosexual denying service is not religious freedom. The common religious beliefs tell you homosexuality is wrong; homosexuality doesn't tell you religion is wrong (as in, being religious).

And you just perfectly described why the law destroys the 1st Amendment - if religious people can choose who to deny service to but non-religious people can't, that's government promotion of religion.

  

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 138):
Access to a shop is never a basic right. Ever.

And yes, telling a private business that is open to the public they must do business with everyone takes away the right to the business owner to select his clientele. This is obvious!

And if that business is the only business in the area to obtain that product? A town may only have one cakery (or bridal shop   ), and you can't very well order one online, and going to another town many miles away is onerous and adds costs for an entire group/class of people. You can't have that either.

Access to shop, an open to the public shop, is a "right".

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 140):
Can't a gay bar be open to the public but only allow gays in? I don't see any problem with this whatsoever.

Actually no, a "gay" bar can't deny service to straight people.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
sccutler
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:20 pm

I struggle to discern how discrimination in the provision of a service to the public against people based upon sexual orientation is materially different than the other forms of discrimination which have been clearly and unequivocally rejected by the courts (race or gender, for example); in order to regard sexual orientation as an allowable basis for lawfully discriminatory practices, I think one would have to prove that the characteristic (being homosexual) is a behavioral choice and not an inherent status.

Don't see that happening.

This is where I see such a law (if signed into effect) being defeated; and with little difficulty.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:04 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 138):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 136):
So you are ok with this:

No.

Umm............ huh?

Denying service to black people is just a business owner picking who he/she decides to serve, right?

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 140):
Can't a gay bar be open to the public but only allow gays in? I don't see any problem with this whatsoever.

Gay bars are open to straights, what are you talking about? It's kind of self segregating since straight guys by and large don't go there. You can go on a gay cruise too.

If gay bars were for gays only then I'd be opposed to that. I think most of our LGBT population would be as well
 
luckyone
Posts: 3113
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RE: Kansas Brings Segregation Back Against Gays

Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:16 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 148):

If gay bars were for gays only then I'd be opposed to that. I think most of our LGBT population would be as well"

Of course we would. How else would we prosyletize and and convert all the straighties...

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 131):

Quoting luckyone (Reply 127):
The problem, in my mind, with most of the arguments in favor of the bill is that phrase that social conservatives like to bring out "slippery slope." Where do you stop refusing service to someone based on a religious conviction?

Forget religion. It's not about the bible at all. Heck, you can probably find atheists who are homophobes.

The argument is about basic human freedom. The arguments against this bill are encouraging forced servitude and that is wrong. You don't threaten someone to work for you, ever.

It is when they make it the basis (however weak) of their argument. And as for "threats," I don't know what universe you live in, but the one I do is "do your job as described to you. If you don't want to, there's the door. I'll find someone who will." Arizona is a Right to Work state meaning you can be dismissed for basically any reason. Turning away a gay based on a religious conviction is no more valid than turning away a black for the same reason...and the Bible can be interpreted to say so.

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