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AA7295
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Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:49 pm

Given Russia's blatant disregard for human rights, and now international law, should FIFA use the FIFA2018 as a bargaining chip to get Russia back into line.

I understand that such sporting events do not try and become "political", but at the same time, what does it say to the international community at large about Russia's stance on human rights and respect for other nation's territorial integrity.

They had Sochi and they failed to change their stance on the equal treatment of homosexuals, now with Ukraine, they need to be brought into line.

I think FIFA should give Russia an ultimatum, or a deadline.

Thoughts?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:12 pm

The simple answer is No!
 
ltbewr
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:15 pm

I would suggest some preliminary plans for an alternative should be made, if not done already. There is 4 years before this so there is no rush to shift to an alternative host, most likely in a Western European country.
If after the next 6 months there is an aggressive war with a takeover of territory of Ukraine or other areas by Russia, then go to the next stage of planning of an alternative site should go into play. If by this time next year it is clear that Russia is involved with aggressive wars of expansion of their territory, then a vote of FIFA members should be held to consider shifting to the alternative site.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:27 pm

Agree. FIFA should stay out of the 'debate'.

Didn't work with the Olympics, won't work with FIFA.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:43 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
Given Russia's blatant disregard for human rights

and how about the Qatari blatant disregard for human rights?

Qatar World Cup construction 'will leave 4,000 migrant workers dead'
Exclusive: International Trade Union Confederation claims about 12 labourers will die each week unless action is taken

http://www.theguardian.com/global-de...tar-world-cup-migrant-workers-dead

 Wow!  

World Cup 2022: 500 Indian Migrant Workers Die In The Build-up To Tournament In Qatar

Over 500 Indian migrants working to prepare Qatar for the 2022 World Cup have died since the beginning of 2012, it has been reported. Official statistics collected in the Middle Eastern emirate by the Indian Embassy in Doha show that 237 people died in 2012, 241 in 2013, while 24 people died since the start of this year, the Guardian reported. In the four years that the Qatari infrastructure has been improved...

more »
http://article.wn.com/view/2014/02/1...igrant_workers_die_in_the_buildup/

 Wow!  

Would you want to be one of these Indian South continent labourers in Qatar or the UAE?
The way they are being treated is total savagery and slavery also. Roman slaves were probably treated much better than this.

 Wow!  
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Derico
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:16 pm

Was the UK stripped of bidding for the 2012 Olympics due to their illegal invasion of Iraq and subsequent human rights abuses there?

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Mir
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:27 pm

It should certainly be explored, though of course FIFA won't do it for fear of missing out on the money from Russia.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 3):
Didn't work with the Olympics, won't work with FIFA.

It didn't work with the Olympics because of the short time frame - less than a year between when the anti-gay law was passed and the games. In this case there are four years plus between now and the World Cup, which is plenty of time to get another country ready, particularly if it's a country that already has all the stadiums built and the only issue is figuring out logistics. Which is all the more reason that alternate plans should be developed sooner rather than later.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):
and how about the Qatari blatant disregard for human rights?

The Qatari human rights record is just one of the many reasons why that World Cup should be rebid, but that's a different topic.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Stabilator
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:50 pm

After their stunt in Georgia in '08 the IOC should have given this year's winter games to someone else. Alas FIFA and the IOC don't give two craps if it means they get $$$
So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:24 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
It didn't work with the Olympics because of the short time frame - less than a year between when the anti-gay law was passed and the games. In this case there are four years plus between now and the World Cup, which is plenty of time to get another country ready,

Berlin 1936, Sochi 2014.

Correct, but the Ukraine recently organized a Euro Cup (in conjunction with Poland) and likely still has the infrastructure. FIFA should remove the World Cup from Russia and give it to Poland and the Ukraine, as a slap in the face to Putin. Of course they won't because the leadership of FIFA is mostly composed of corrupt officials that would sell their own mothers for cash.
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PHX787
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:58 pm

It's all about the $$$$$$$ with sport sanctioning bodies these days, and with Russia's corruption, we know that FIFA will want some of that money.
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moo
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:20 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
It didn't work with the Olympics because of the short time frame - less than a year between when the anti-gay law was passed and the games.

It didn't work with the Olympics because the Olympic Organising Committee rightly take the line that a host nation should not be punished for not towing the groupthink line.

As bad as the anti-gay law is, its entirely within Russias right to have such a law internally - this is a world of individual nations, each having authority over their own internal affairs, not one single world with one single set of laws.

International sporting events should not be about forcing hosts to conform to a set of morals and ethics one group of nations think are correct, its about recognising the fact that nations can be individuals and still part of the international community.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:24 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
International sporting events should not be about forcing hosts to conform to a set of morals and ethics one group of nations think are correct, its about recognising the fact that nations can be individuals and still part of the international community.

Just like Nazi Germany in 1936, correct? Jut another valid member of the international community. One member that has no respect for the international community and routinely invades and occupies its neighbors, but sure, just another member of the international community.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
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moo
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:36 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 11):
Just like Nazi Germany in 1936, correct? Jut another valid member of the international community. One member that has no respect for the international community and routinely invades and occupies its neighbors, but sure, just another member of the international community.

I knew that someone would bring up Germany.

Until internal decisions have an external effect, then you are entirely correct - no other nation or group of nations has the right to interfere with another nations internal affairs.

The world is a wide and varied place, and the Olympics or the FIFA world cup are not the sole property of a certain group of nations who like to think that only they have the right stance on a set of views.

If certain nations disagree with the choice of hosts, then they should feel free to not participate.
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:03 pm

It won't happen, regardless of what Russia does.

Frankly, I think Qatar is a much bigger issue, and they're doing nothing about that--Russia stays, certainly.
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:02 am

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
I think FIFA should give Russia an ultimatum, or a deadline.

It should not be the decision of a sports association, if the UN feel it is a security issue nearer the time (chances are the events right now will be just history by 2018) for participants and visitors, they can recommend / pressure / instruct depending on the severity FIFA to change venues. Most big European countries with lots of big stadiums could probably host the event at short notice if needed.

Qatar on the other hand should never be happening.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 8):
FIFA should remove the World Cup from Russia and give it to Poland and the Ukraine, as a slap in the face to Putin

If the concern is safety and security of athletes and civilians rather than just trying to piss off Putin, then the Ukraine would hardly be a better venue as things stand...

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
FIFA won't do it for fear of missing out on the money from Russia.

FIFA will get their money wherever they are held.
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Mir
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:10 am

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
International sporting events should not be about forcing hosts to conform to a set of morals and ethics one group of nations think are correct, its about recognising the fact that nations can be individuals and still part of the international community.

Invading other countries without cause is not a set of morals and ethics that one group of nations thinks is correct, it's a set of morals that pretty much everyone thinks is correct. And countries that do it tend to be shunned from the international community anyway.

This goes far beyond the anti-gay legislation in Russia.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AA7295
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:18 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 14):
If the concern is safety and security of athletes and civilians rather than just trying to piss off Putin, then the Ukraine would hardly be a better venue as things stand...

I was more so referring to taking away FIFA from Russia as punishment for their lack of respect for international law, and the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:45 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
The Qatari human rights record is just one of the many reasons why that World Cup should be rebid, but that's a different topic.

Its easy to get FIFA and such organizations in line with morals: Don´t watch it. If holding such event in a dictatorship means 10% less viewers, they learn fast. If nobody cares, they will just go where the money is. So i guess all we have to to is get a couple of million people to fax to the FIFA +41-(0)43 222 7878 that they will boycott the event and its sponsors during the event ......
I would assume there are a couple of nations that could pull it of with much less then 4 years or preparation.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
blueflyer
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:18 am

Whether it's the World Cup or FIFA18 or the Olympic Games, the only language that matters is money. Not watching, as Thomas suggests above is a first step. Complaining to Coca Cola, McDonald's, Emirates, etc... that their advertising dollars is making it possible to hold an event in a country that you find reprehensible for one reason or another, is a better step.

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
As bad as the anti-gay law is, its entirely within Russias right to have such a law internally - this is a world of individual nations, each having authority over their own internal affairs, not one single world with one single set of laws.

It is contrary to the Olympic Charter, but despite all the pageantry and the lofty speeches under the Olympic flag during the opening ceremony, the IOC cares a lot more about making sure host countries have (or implement) the appropriate laws to protect their symbol from unauthorized commercial exploitation than they care about checking that local laws and the Olympic Charter don't conflict.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:49 am

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
As bad as the anti-gay law is, its entirely within Russias right to have such a law internally - this is a world of individual nations, each having authority over their own internal affairs, not one single world with one single set of laws.

That is actually wrong. It has been decided a little over 60 years ago that there is a law above a nations law and that such law has to be obeyed. If you violate it too much, you might find yourself at the end of a rope with your feed dangling above the ground or imprisoned for a long time. Neither Russia, not any other nation, has any right to violate certain human rights.
Last time i check Russia had ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Right, Article 17 explicitly nullifies prohibitions on homosexual behavior, therefore your point is sort of mute.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tu204
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:17 pm

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 7):

What stunt with Georgia? Or are you referring to Georgia's nighttime attack on a sleeping city full of civilians? C'mon, get with the program. Even the EU admitted that Georgia started that little war.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
AR385
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:19 am

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
Given Russia's blatant disregard for human rights, and now international law, should FIFA use the FIFA2018 as a bargaining chip to get Russia back into line.

Since when has FIFA ever given a rat´s behind about human rights? Or international law for that matter? If anybody needs to be brought in line first it is FIFA.

They are made for each other, in my opinion.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:28 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 21):
If anybody needs to be brought in line first it is FIFA.

So, lets start a fax & boycott campaign?  

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Asturias
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:44 am

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
Given Russia's blatant disregard for human rights, and now international law, should FIFA use the FIFA2018 as a bargaining chip to get Russia back into line.

No.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 11):
Just like the United States of America in a number of different years, correct? Jut another valid member of the international community. One member that has no respect for the international community and routinely invades and occupies its neighbors, but sure, just another member of the international community.

Fixed that for you. This way you can argue without invoking Godwin and still keep your original point.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 19):
That is actually wrong. It has been decided a little over 60 years ago that there is a law above a nations law and that such law has to be obeyed. If you violate it too much, you might find yourself at the end of a rope with your feed dangling above the ground or imprisoned for a long time. Neither Russia, not any other nation, has any right to violate certain human rights.

I think it is really endearing that someone actually believes there is such a thing as "international law" that is above and beyond sovereign countries. Well, funny story - there's no such thing. It's essentially a framework that the western world uses to squash countries and states not powerful enough to stand up for themselves.

Russia, Untited States, China etc. are countries for example that will not obey any "international law" if it is in any way shape or form not to their liking. No one can stop them. No one will try. No one should try.

Now go heat up that fax machine and give FIFA the biggest surprise of their life: that someone uses fax machines.  Smile

[Edited 2014-03-05 01:53:23]
Tonight we fly
 
tommy1808
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:10 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 23):
I think it is really endearing that someone actually believes there is such a thing as "international law" that is above and beyond sovereign countries. Well, funny story - there's no such thing. It's essentially a framework that the western world uses to squash countries and states not powerful enough to stand up for themselves.

International law is very real, the lack is on the enforcement side. It only gets enforced when it pleases the nations that have the power to enforce it (or to use it as an excuse for violating it without adverse consequences). A design flaw, but the world probably isn´t far enough yet, enforcing international law in smaller communities of states, e.g. the EU, works fairly ok.
The consent about human rights is that they exist even when no-one grants or enforces them.


Quoting Asturias (Reply 23):

Now go heat up that fax machine and give FIFA the biggest surprise of their life: that someone uses fax machines.

I am always surprised by how much fax is still used in B2B, but the nice part about using fax is a) implementing a SPAM filter is rather difficult and b) phone lines are limited resources which makes protest faxes a lot harder to ignore than protest e-mails.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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Asturias
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 24):
International law is very real, the lack is on the enforcement side.

Well, my viewpoint is this: laws that cannot be enforced are no laws. They are just text, laws must be applicable. It must also be possible to get a ruling on a law.

If a text claims to be a law, but cannot be ruled upon in an independent court or enforced, then I'm sorry - it is something, but it is not law.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 24):
I am always surprised by how much fax is still used in B2B, but the nice part about using fax is a) implementing a SPAM filter is rather difficult and b) phone lines are limited resources which makes protest faxes a lot harder to ignore than protest e-mails.

That is true, I am quite surprised myself. Though it has some practical value B2B that email hasn't solved, so it makes a certain amount of sense.
Tonight we fly
 
greasespot
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:38 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
As bad as the anti-gay law is, its entirely within Russias right to have such a law internally - this is a world of individual nations, each having authority over their own internal affairs, not one single world with one single set of laws.

International sporting events should not be about forcing hosts to conform to a set of morals and ethics one group of nations think are correct, its about recognising the fact that nations can be individuals and still part of the international community.

They did it to South Africa with apartheid...So why not now or is it because it is gays not now Black people.

I am not expecting perfection but when a state has active laws, policies, and state endorsed violence against an identifiable group then yes the international sports organizations should act.


GS

[Edited 2014-03-05 06:40:22]
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
tu204
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 29):
They did it to South Africa with apartheid...So why not now or is it because it is gays not now Black people.

Ridiculous. Comparing treating others as second-class citizens to not being able to hold pride parades. Please read up on your facts before you make absurd conclusions.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tommy1808
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:09 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 30):

Ridiculous. Comparing treating others as second-class citizens to not being able to hold pride parades.

Article 17 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Right explicitly nullifies prohibitions on homosexual behavior. Russia has ratified this covenant, therefore it is legally binding to Russia. Denying one group of citizens rights you grand other groups of citizens is the very definition of treating said group of citizens as 2nd class.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 30):
Please read up on your facts before you make absurd conclusions.

likewise

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
AR385
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:42 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 22):
So, lets start a fax & boycott campaign?

I don´t think that would work. But you are aware that even local laws in countries with football leagues associated with FIFA are ignored? What would work is judicial powers in individual countries giving FIFA a spoonful of their own medicine.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 27):
Right now in Ukraine we are again protecting the peace and civilian population from the results of another short-sighted EU/US campaign to provoke some people.

Cute.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 30):
Ridiculous. Comparing treating others as second-class citizens to not being able to hold pride parades.



As long as parades for other people with a different purpose are authorized, yes, citizens unable to hold pride parades are second class.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:16 am

What about this years FIFA 2014 World Cup in Brazil that will start in about 100 days ? Already there are serious issues as to sufficient preparations of facilities and huge cost overruns to Brazilian taxpayers. Massive repression of protests to the point of possible calling of any and all political protesters as 'terrorists' so likely violent treatment. A country with serious human rights and environmental issue. Growing and massive economic class divisions. Huge slums sometimes near the stadium sites. Government and police corruption on a huge scale. Harbors criminals with lax extradition assistance.
To bash Russia is two-faced when other past and future WC sites have had their serious issues.
 
Mir
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:30 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 30):
To bash Russia is two-faced when other past and future WC sites have had their serious issues.

The thread is about Russia, so it's natural that it would focus on Russia. That doesn't mean that Russia is being singled out - Qatar got some mentions, and if Brazil weren't too close to do anything about they'd have probably gotten mentions as well because it's true that there are significant problems there. But it should be pointed out that the issues with Brazil and Qatar are with the bids themselves, not the actions of the host country on the global stage. That's what makes Russia different in this case.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
tommy1808
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:29 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 29):
I don´t think that would work.

It works if enough people do it. Ask Shell.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 29):
But you are aware that even local laws in countries with football leagues associated with FIFA are ignored?

They don´t get ignored... they manage to get their own laws made to fit their needs.  
Quoting AR385 (Reply 29):
What would work is judicial powers in individual countries giving FIFA a spoonful of their own medicine.

In a global world? They would just stay in those countries that do their bidding. ...

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 30):
A country with serious human rights and environmental issue. Growing and massive economic class divisions. Huge slums sometimes near the stadium sites. Government and police corruption on a huge scale. Harbors criminals with lax extradition assistance.

So no WC in the USA either?

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:35 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 27):
Please read up on your facts before you make absurd conclusions.

Please tell us the 'facts' then... what exactly is "homosexual propaganda"? You tell us to not blindly accept the Western media but whenever anyone asks questions, you ignore them  

The few examples I have heard that are considered homosexual propaganda are pretty vague and don't really seem to be fooling anyone
 
tommy1808
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RE: Should FIFA2018 Be Given To An Alternate Host?

Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:06 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):

The few examples I have heard that are considered homosexual propaganda are pretty vague and don't really seem to be fooling anyone

According to the pre-olympia press painting your fingernails in rainbow colors is borderline homosexual propaganda.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/breakin...reach/story-fnect155-1226699279006

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6

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