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Mike89406
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Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:19 am

 
Mir
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:51 am

Quoting Mike89406 (Thread starter):
This should be a fun topic

Especially when you're using as a source a website that is vehemently pro-life.

Basically, what he's saying is that Africa has a birth rate problem, and that a component of that problem is the low use of condoms and poor sex education. And he's absolutely right.

-Mir
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Kiwirob
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:57 am

I'm surprised he didn't include India as well. But then again what's better a smaller population that can support itself or a larger population that struggles and always requires assistance from outside the region?
 
WestJet747
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:07 pm

When I was in university, my "Don" (essentially a residence advisor) would hand out condoms to promote us practicing safe sex. I guess he too was "promoting population control".

Now I'm no fan of Al Gore, but it must have been a slow abortion-news day at LifeNews.com, because this article is really grasping at straws. Besides the fact that the source makes Fox News and MSNBC look like The Weather Network, his words are clearly being twisted, and the bloggers don't even do a great job of it.

It's fairly obvious that Gore is talking about practicing safe sex and only having children if they can be cared for, all on a continent that has struggled with sexually-transmitted diseases and child poverty. I agree with him on this.
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Mir
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:31 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 3):
all on a continent that has struggled with sexually-transmitted diseases and child poverty.

And a completely unsustainable birth rate that will haunt the continent for generations to come.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:56 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Especially when you're using as a source a website that is vehemently pro-life.

Sometimes I wonder if these people think that the Earth has an infinite surface area.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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photopilot
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sat Apr 26, 2014 5:58 pm

Look, the reality is that the world's population either comes under voluntary control by some method or other, or eventually...... starves itself to death. What is the practical choice? How many people can the entire planet sustain?

http://econosystemics.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/world-population-chart.jpg

Doesn't matter who's scale you use, they all look pretty much the same. I'd like to see the pro-life people show ANY sort of comment/plan to deal with this ever growing population. As for me.... I believe we need to control it, voluntarily or not.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sat Apr 26, 2014 6:49 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Sometimes I wonder if these people think that the Earth has an infinite surface area.

The rapture is coming before we over populate, remember?  
Quoting photopilot (Reply 6):

Look, the reality is that the world's population either comes under voluntary control by some method or other, or eventually...... starves itself to death. What is the practical choice?

Good point. How pro life is it to encourage bigger families in places that can't support them? Doesn't sound very pro life to me
 
Mike89406
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:10 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):

My apologies if you don't approve of the website perhaps I should've linked a different website. However It's an interesting topic nevertheless and it doesn't make me pro-life or pro-choice.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):

If you're referring to the article them yes these people think we have endless space on the planet in fact it will be unsustainable in the near future.
 
AR385
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:06 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
And a completely unsustainable birth rate that will haunt the continent for generations to come.

-Mir

I know nothing about demographics and rates, but having read the article perhaps someone can help me with a few questions?

1. What is the life expectancy of people in Africa?
2. How much "resources" do they consume, compared to other regions of the world?
3. Why is there going to be a population explosion there?
4. Other regions of the world are having negative population rates. How is this going to be addressed? Does it actually need to be addresed?

Thank you.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:16 pm

The problem is one of wealth and (general) education. Every developed country has seen a sharp decline in fertility at some point in its development, even before sex education existed. Many countries in Africa aren't developing or too slowly, because of political instability/corruption, and this is the main problem.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 9):
4. Other regions of the world are having negative population rates. How is this going to be addressed? Does it actually need to be addresed?

At the moment it's being addressed by immigration, causing a lot of other problems. We need to move on to a better economic system where more isn't necessarily better, at which point having a diminishing population wouldn't look as bad as it looks now.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:27 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 6):
Look, the reality is that the world's population either comes under voluntary control by some method or other, or eventually...... starves itself to death. What is the practical choice? How many people can the entire planet sustain?

Newer predictions say that we'll reach peak-child in about 2050, then earth's population is going to drop, simply through better education, especially for women. In most places, except for Africa, birth rates have been dropping and it looks as if Nigeria will bypass China as second most populated country by then.

Jan
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DocLightning
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:10 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 6):

Doesn't matter who's scale you use, they all look pretty much the same. I'd like to see the pro-life people show ANY sort of comment/plan to deal with this ever growing population.

Their plan is to wag their fingers about people not having sex.
-Doc Lightning-

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DfwRevolution
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:37 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 6):
Look, the reality is that the world's population either comes under voluntary control by some method or other, or eventually...... starves itself to death.

That is not reality, that is unfounded speculation.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 6):
Doesn't matter who's scale you use, they all look pretty much the same. I'd like to see the pro-life people show ANY sort of comment/plan to deal with this ever growing population

Those plots just show population growth. They don't show agricultural productivity, which has been increasing faster than population growth. Corn production per acre is up 240% since 1950 in developed countries, but global population has only increased 180% in the same time period. Ditto for many other foodstuffs. Food prices are roughly 60% lower than they were in 1900 yet there are 325% more people.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 6):
As for me.... I believe we need to control it, voluntarily or not.

I'd be fascinated to know what is entailed with your "or not" scenario. On the surface, it seems that you're willing to nonchalantly jump on board with a genocide, forced sterilization, or birth permitting system on the basis of incomplete and misleading evidence.

[Edited 2014-04-26 16:41:34]
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TheCommodore
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:34 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Sometimes I wonder if these people think that the Earth has an infinite surface area.

Yes agree Doc, Water, food and other resources considered vital in sustaining human life  
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
photopilot
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:26 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
That is not reality, that is unfounded speculation.

Perhaps, but I'd also sum up all your comments as a "Stick your head in the sand" approach.

Surely you can see that world population is steadily growing.
You should also be able to see that at some point (however you wish to define it) they'll come a point where sustainable agriculture or food production reaches it's maximum limit based on available resources. The world does NOT have infinite resources so at some point, food production must peak when you've exhausted it all.

At that point, ANY continued population growth can only be accomplished by reducing the total caloric input to each person, or feeding some to "full" and starving others.

If you can't see that, you're part of the problem IMHO.
 
mham001
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:31 pm

Speaking of population control by liberals, we were indoctrinated in the US schools during the 60's and 70's that we all needed to practice birth control and make fewer babies. Too many people were bad, we were told. Now, the very same people are telling us we should have all but open borders, we need more immigrants and let them all in - with no fear of deportation. Even if we don't have enough water for those already here.

Hypocrites, all of them. Racist too.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:42 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 15):
Perhaps, but I'd also sum up all your comments as a "Stick your head in the sand" approach

On the contrary, I'm confronting both the supply and demand issue. You are just confronting the demand issue and "sticking your head in the sand" to opposing facts.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 15):
You should also be able to see that at some point (however you wish to define it) they'll come a point where sustainable agriculture or food production reaches it's maximum limit based on available resources.

That is not a given.

As others have pointed out, it is a fact that birth rates are slowing largely due to demographic and socieoeconomic reasons. Birth rates slow as nations develop middle class economies just like we are currently seeing in roughly 40% of the world's population. It is entirely possible that we will reach the maximum population people want to birth long before we even stress our maximum agricultural output and resource availability.

Let's not forget how many claimed in the 60s and 70s that we would see massive famine and billions of people dying off by the 80s and 90s. Those predictions were proven laughably false. There's a reason the issue totally died except for a few kooks.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 15):
The world does NOT have infinite resources so at some point, food production must peak when you've exhausted it all.

You are assuming that once a resource is used for agricultural production, it is destroyed and cannot be recycled. That is not true. Our planet has a water cycle, a nitrogen cycle, a carbon cycle, etc. Even in the absence of man-made waste recovery and recycling, Earth is capable of supporting billions more people than our currently alive.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 15):
At that point, ANY continued population growth can only be accomplished by reducing the total caloric input to each person, or feeding some to "full" and starving others.

You are remarkably narrow in your thinking. Those are not the only options.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 15):
If you can't see that, you're part of the problem IMHO.

You bet. My wife and I fully intend to have more than two children and contribute to net population growth.   
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Aesma
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sun Apr 27, 2014 4:47 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
That is not reality, that is unfounded speculation.

You forget to say that many people don't eat enough, or barely enough, don't consume much energy, don't consume anything really. If all those people lived like the average Chinese (not to mention the average European or worse American), we would already be lacking not only food, but energy, metals, rare earths, water, everything !
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seb146
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:44 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 16):
Speaking of population control by liberals

I know you are just trying to pick a fight because you were indoctrinated to hate anyone who does not tow the FOX/tea party platform but:

Immigration is a completely different topic than birth control. And "liberals" (read: those who don't agree with tea/FOX) are not saying open borders. They are saying we already know there are illegals here working and living peacefully among us. Let's get them legal so they can pay taxes like the rest of us. How exactly is that the same as "if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em"?
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AR385
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:01 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
That is not reality, that is unfounded speculation.

Asd it´s been around since Malthus and proven wrong time and again, twice a century or so.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:14 pm

The countries where the population is growing rapidly are not the countries where food production is growing rapidly. In fact developed countries are even buying agricultural land in those countries (a risky investment in my opinion). Advocating for population control in countries that already cannot feed their population seem pretty logical. Sure they can improve their agriculture, but that doesn't mean they can reach our levels, their climate is not the same. And that improvement needs massive amounts of money, for machines, for wells, for infrastructure, for fertilizers. All this in unstable countries is almost impossible to do.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:51 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
You forget to say that many people don't eat enough, or barely enough, don't consume much energy, don't consume anything really. If all those people lived like the average Chinese (not to mention the average European or worse American), we would already be lacking not only food, but energy, metals, rare earths, water, everything !

Again - this is just your speculation.

If today's developing world were to consume like today's Americans or Europeans, then we would also have higher global productivity and a larger global economy to output those goods. That which does not exist cannot be consumed. All you are saying is that you can't envision a world in which billions more people have the purchasing power of today's developing nations.

Very little imagination is necessary to envision such a world, because it is unfolding before us.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
The countries where the population is growing rapidly are not the countries where food production is growing rapidly.

So we trade food internationally, as humans have done for thousands of years.

It's amazing how quickly some people refuse to engage in basic problem-solving, and instead look for opportunities to engage in draconian ways to control, manipulate, or just eradicate large populations of people.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
Advocating for population control in countries that already cannot feed their population seem pretty logical.

You're just rationalizing a means to strip people of their human dignity because it might be hard to solve problems that humans have been solving our entire existence. That is morally bankrupt.
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DeltaSRQ
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:48 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 3):
It's fairly obvious that Gore is talking about practicing safe sex and only having children if they can be cared for, all on a continent that has struggled with sexually-transmitted diseases and child poverty. I agree with him on this.

Agreed. The article suggested: "Polluted waters and climate changes are a concern sure, but the extermination of innocent children is a crime of much more concern, and one I refuse to stand for."

I don't believe Gore was saying we need to "exterminate children", just that we should educate women so that they may make different decisions on the amount of and timing of children they have.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:16 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 16):
Hypocrites, all of them. Racist too.

That's rich....  

Why do you have to make it political ?

Blind Freedy can understand that the world cannot support endless population growth and endless exploitation of the worlds resources forever.

When there is nothing left to dig out of the ground and no water when you turn on the tap, what are you going to do then ?

Pray to God I suppose, not that he will be able to help!

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Immigration is a completely different topic than birth control.

And that needs explaining.......Wow

Quoting DeltaSRQ (Reply 23):
Agreed. The article suggested: "Polluted waters and climate changes are a concern sure, but the extermination of innocent children is a crime of much more concern, and one I refuse to stand for."

I agree with him, sort of.

I know of many parents with several children who really shouldn't be parents, even to one child, let alone 3/4.
People need to be educated, that raising a child is an enormous ongoing responsibility for many many years. And it should also noted, that welfare payments for raising kids from the Government (buying votes) should be stopped.

If you cant manage to raise a child without receiving financial assistance from the Government of the day, then IMHO you have no business having a child in the first place.

[Edited 2014-04-27 15:18:05]
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vikkyvik
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:20 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 22):
That is morally bankrupt.

So is bringing kids into a situation in which you cannot properly feed / take care of them.
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rwy04lga
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:42 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 22):
So we trade food internationally

Trade??? You mean GIVE! What do these 'developing' countries have to trade? NOTHING! So the west (most likely, those dreaded 'Americans') are bombarded with TV commercials showing starving children (but seemingly well-fed hosts/presenters-remember Sally Struthers?) begging for donations while never mentioning much-needed population control measures.

It's welfare on a national scale. If we keep giving them food/money, they'll keep having babies.

I say shut the door, turn off the tap. If we keep feeding, they'll never stop breeding.

Ironically, it can be rightly said....It's the Americans' fault.
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BestWestern
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:17 am

The right wing solution to over population - give them guns.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:22 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 22):
You're just rationalizing a means to strip people of their human dignity

Who is stripping "human dignity" from anyone? Are we going in and force sterilizing people? What is wrong with birth control/contraceptive education? We do that in America, does that mean America is racist against Americans and trying to strip our own human dignity?

What is your plan then? Not having kids that you are unable to take care of sounds like the RIGHT thing to try and instill in people, not the wrong thing
 
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seb146
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:16 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 24):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):Immigration is a completely different topic than birth control.
And that needs explaining.......Wow

Seriously?

Okay: Immigration has to do with people already born and looking for a better life or an escape from war or escape from famine.

Birth control is knowing a person can not afford children or will die if she gets pregnant or just does not want kids.

Two different things.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:42 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 29):
Seriously?

Okay: Immigration has to do with people already born and looking for a better life or an escape from war or escape from famine.

Birth control is knowing a person can not afford children or will die if she gets pregnant or just does not want kids.

Two different things.

Don't misunderstand me seb, I agree totally with what you are saying.

I meant " Wow " in regards to the fact he (mham001) couldn't make a distinction in difference (See below)

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Quoting mham001 (Reply 16):
Speaking of population control by liberals

I know you are just trying to pick a fight because you were indoctrinated to hate anyone who does not tow the FOX/tea party platform but:

Immigration is a completely different topic than birth control. And "liberals" (read: those who don't agree with tea/FOX) are not saying open borders. They are saying we already know there are illegals here working and living peacefully among us. Let's get them legal so they can pay taxes like the rest of us. How exactly is that the same as "if you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em"?
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
PhilBy
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:53 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 24):
I know of many parents with several children who really shouldn't be parents, even to one child, let alone 3/4.
People need to be educated, that raising a child is an enormous ongoing responsibility for many many years.

Proves that 'Idiocracy' is no sci-fi.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:05 am

Haha just noticed this thread, what a dumb article that one is. As long as unsustainable population growth continues in Africa (and elsewhere in developing world) any development aid going there is pretty much useless, there's no way for those countries to build adequate infrastructure when extremely fast population growth just drowns all the efforts.

Really pretty much all the large scale problems world is facing now are more or less caused by too many people living on this planet, stopping unsustainable population growth should be among top priorities, together with lowering Co2 emissions.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:29 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 32):

Oddly enough European countries had similarly high rates of population growth during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Yet those countries were able to cope with it, partly through large scale emigration, but partly through improved investments in infrastructure.

Birth control will likely come about as conditions improve. We saw this happen in Europe where with the introduction of social programmes, better education and economic opportunities for women living standards rose and birth rates fell. In some areas the main problem might be the lack of political stability and the disruption to the way of life, of which population explosion and malnourishment may be symptoms.

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 26):

Some of the affected countries do have resources that they could and do trade. Nigeria, for example, has considerable oil resources. Other countries have resources like gas, copper, cobalt, bauxite, gold and diamonds. China is investing heavily in some parts if Africa.

The tragedy is that much of the wealth ends up in the hands of a few and the majority see little, if any, benefit. In some areas civil wars mean that projects are disrupted and wealth is squandered.
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
tommy1808
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:34 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
Those plots just show population growth. They don't show agricultural productivity, which has been increasing faster than population growth. Corn production per acre is up 240% since 1950 in developed countries, but global population has only increased 180% in the same time period. Ditto for many other foodstuffs. Food prices are roughly 60% lower than they were in 1900 yet there are 325% more people.

Do we have the resources to cultivate all arable land the same intensive way as developed countries do? In Terms of Energy to run all the vehicles required and phosphors to make all the fertilizer? I somehow doubt that. The US Geological Survey thinks we have phosphor for about 100 years with rather constant demand, the Stockholm Environment Institute thinks 50 years giving the prospective growths in demand, the University of Technology in Sydney thinks around 2034 it will become to expensive to be reasonably used for agriculture....

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
I'd be fascinated to know what is entailed with your "or not" scenario. On the surface, it seems that you're willing to nonchalantly jump on board with a genocide, forced sterilization, or birth permitting system on the basis of incomplete and misleading evidence.

Planned parenthood is nothing bad and beats population control by famine hands down. Earth may be able to sustain 15 Billion people indefinitely, maybe even more, but at some point you need to think about slowing down growth, or we will first lose the ability to do it w/o violating human rights and later end up with starvation taking care of it.

Best regards
Thomas
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Kiwirob
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:36 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 26):
Ironically, it can be rightly said....It's the Americans' fault.

In this instance you can't just blame Americans, it's bleeding hearts all over the developed world. That said I'm now pretty much immune to seeing starving children on TV, the effectivness of those type adverts is long since gone.

I don't see any problem with population control, the Chinese have been pretty effective at managing it, by the end of this centuary their will be significantly less people in China than at the start of it. The one child policy has resulted in somewhere between 250-300 million less births.

India should take note as they are fast heading for the crapper and the rest of us will be called on to bail them out.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:46 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):

I don't see any problem with population control, the Chinese have been pretty effective at managing it, by the end of this centuary their will be significantly less people in China than at the start of it. The one child policy has resulted in somewhere between 250-300 million less births.

And as a result women are a rare commodity in china and not to forget all the forced abortions they needed to get there. And of course if was used to suppress any opposition. Brave new world.

Education and access to birth control together with economic growth would have had much the same result, as can be seen in pretty much any civilized country. The crimes of a misanthropic regime are hardly the gold standard or population control.

best regards
Thomas

[Edited 2014-04-28 04:15:59]
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
BestWestern
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:51 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):
I'm now pretty much immune to seeing starving children on TV

Sad but true - Shocking TV adverts for Famine from the usual charity suspects are common place right across the world that people change channels.

At the same time, people are more and more peeved at the high $$$$ salaries of the charity leaders and how little of the charity money actually goes to the causes in question, rather than be eaten up in administration, company cars, first class flights and five star hotels.
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tommy1808
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RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:57 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 37):
Sad but true - Shocking TV adverts for Famine from the usual charity suspects are common place right across the world that people change channels.

If you want to help, buy Transfair, Goodweave, or other FINE labeled products. -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FINE

Sending money and food should be limited to disaster relieve. But sometimes i have the feeling that those efforts are only done to get production companies, ofter foreign owned, back up asap.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
PhilBy
Posts: 840
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:06 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):
I don't see any problem with population control, the Chinese have been pretty effective at managing it, by the end of this centuary their will be significantly less people in China than at the start of it. The one child policy has resulted in somewhere between 250-300 million less births.

India should take note as they are fast heading for the crapper and the rest of us will be called on to bail them out.

But soon the Chinese will have more retired population than earning population and no-one knows how that will end. Our current economic principle is based on continuing growth. Hence for certain countries while job creation programs increase the number of employed, the number of unemployed also rises.
There will come a point where the economics also need to change.
 
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Aesma
Posts: 14102
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:35 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 22):
You're just rationalizing a means to strip people of their human dignity because it might be hard to solve problems that humans have been solving our entire existence. That is morally bankrupt.

First, I have not mentioned any means. I know that the abstinence crap W Bush and his cronies were advocating doesn't help, though. I said the problem is one of education, so efforts should start there. Help countries have 100% children in school, for as long as possible.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 33):
Oddly enough European countries had similarly high rates of population growth during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Yet those countries were able to cope with it, partly through large scale emigration, but partly through improved investments in infrastructure.

First I question this affirmation. We had population growth thanks to the industrial revolution, but progress in medicine and hygiene took a lot of time. The problem is now we save much more people (mainly children) in countries where this wouldn't have happened on its own. Personally I'm not advocating any change regarding such help, it should come with ever more education though (and such programs already exist, where mothers are taught sex ed while they visit doctors for their children);

Also, European countries had relatively stable societies/governments when these changes happened, this makes a lot of difference.

I looked at wikipedia and it seems there isn't even a consensus on how the demographic transition works, if development leads to lesser population growth, of if lesser population growth leads to industrialization !

Quote:
A correlation matching the demographic transition has been established; however, it is not certain whether industrialization and higher incomes lead to lower population or if lower populations lead to industrialization and higher incomes. In countries that are now developed this demographic transition began in the 18th century and continues today. In less developed countries, this demographic transition started later and is still at an earlier stage.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:59 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):
India should take note as they are fast heading for the crapper and the rest of us will be called on to bail them out.

Your spot on, and at the same time make a heap of money out of them with trade and developmental programs etc, not to mention selling then uranium while people starve..make any sense to you ?

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 37):
At the same time, people are more and more peeved at the high $$$$ salaries of the charity leaders and how little of the charity money actually goes to the causes in question, rather than be eaten up in administration, company cars, first class flights and five star hotels.

Yes, and even some officials, in positions of power in the very countries where we are trying to help with aid. Corruption and crime is rampant in some of these places, and the theft that occurs, if we only knew the half of it, would be mind blowing

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 39):
Our current economic principle is based on continuing growth.

Ahhhhhh.. Capitalism, don't you just love it !
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
AyostoLeon
Posts: 745
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 3:09 pm

RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:48 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 40):

I don't dispute that there was a lag between European industrial development and improvements in health, education and welfare but the latter certainly contributed to smaller family sizes.

My main argument is to suggest that it isn't simply a case of a lack of education that condemns societies to unsustainable population growth. The breakdown in traditional societies and the lack of political stability which tends to increase economic uncertainty, I believe, play a part. If people are barely able to buy food they will hardly be able to buy contraceptives and in societies without aged care facilities and/ or pensions, who looks after the childless aged?

Education is necessary but unless it is linked to other economic and social reforms it may fall short of expectations.
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13392
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:09 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 36):
And as a result women are a rare commodity in china and not to forget all the forced abortions they needed to get there.

From what I have read the abortion rate in China is very low, the take up of contraception is something like 80% of all women of childbearing age.

You can't stop stupid people aborting due to the sex of the child, I know of a couple here in Norway with 5 sons who despirately wanted a daughter, I've been told they had several abortions before their daughter finally arrived.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 40):
I know that the abstinence crap W Bush and his cronies were advocating doesn't help, though. I said the problem is one of education, so efforts should start there. Help countries have 100% children in school, for as long as possible.

Apparenty the biggest reduction in tean pregnancies in the US happened after MTV's tean mom programed aired, millions of stupid young females have worked out that a baby is hard work, so they aren't getting knocked up at anywhere near the same rate since the show aired several years ago.

http://www.healthline.com/health-new...ows-decrease-teen-pregnancy-011614
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14435
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:30 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 43):
From what I have read the abortion rate in China is very low, the take up of contraception is something like 80% of all women of childbearing age.

Which is all good and how civilized countries do it. They problem is how they deal with those that want a 2nd, 3rd or 4th child and are not allowed to have them and that are forced to abort a sometime fully developed baby. I guess even the biggest "pro choice" proponent will call aborting of a crowning baby during birth against its parents will murder.
Oh, and of course in that wonderful workers paradise regime the government does not pay for treating the damage done.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 43):

You can't stop stupid people aborting due to the sex of the child, I know of a couple here in Norway with 5 sons who despirately wanted a daughter, I've been told they had several abortions before their daughter finally arrived.

Of couse you can not stop people from aborting if they want to, but do you really think all those girls would have been aborted if there hadn´t been a one-child policy?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 43):
Apparenty the biggest reduction in tean pregnancies in the US happened after MTV's tean mom programed aired, millions of stupid young females have worked out that a baby is hard work, so they aren't getting knocked up at anywhere near the same rate since the show aired several years ago

  
so much for TV not having an educational value  

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:38 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 44):
They problem is how they deal with those that want a 2nd, 3rd or 4th child and are not allowed to have them and that are forced to abort a sometime fully developed baby.

I thought they stopped doing this? Will have to talk to my Chinese friends again. I think 2nd children are allowed in some cases these days. I don't think it's as bad as it used to be and part of that is due to the fact that they'll need a bit more than 1 child per family to have a healthy/better distributed population. Could be wrong
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13392
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:42 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 42):
If people are barely able to buy food they will hardly be able to buy contraceptives and in societies without aged care facilities and/ or pensions, who looks after the childless aged?

Who pays for contraceptives, in most developed countries they are free. When I was younger I'd just pop into the family planning centre on campus and help myself to a handful of condoms, girls could get free prescriptions for the pill. I don't see why it should be any different for third world countries, it would be in their best interest to make contraception free.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 44):
They problem is how they deal with those that want a 2nd, 3rd or 4th child and are not allowed to have them and that are forced to abort a sometime fully developed baby.

It all depends on where in China you live, certain ethnic minorities and others from low population areas were never limited to only one child. Now the one child policy has been relaxed, but it hasn't lead to an explosion of children, it appears that most families only want 1 or 2 children, same old story as people become more affluent the birth rate drops.

In my own experience having a third child made a much larger dent in my finances than the jump from one to two children. The western world isn't really set up for families with more than two children, from cars, to hotel rooms, to family passes, most things are now set up for two adults + two children, not three children.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8362
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:00 pm

India can afford space rockets and nuclear technology. Their priorities are wrong.

Their problem if the don't invest in healthcare and education.

I for one wont send one cent their way to bail out their mess.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14435
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:31 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 45):
I thought they stopped doing this?

yup, they do: http://news.yahoo.com/forced-abortio...abuses-china-policy-075221550.html

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 45):
Will have to talk to my Chinese friends again.

That is like asking an American "are you guys still bombing Laos" during the Vietnam war, Americans where pretty much the only people that didn´t know about it. They don´t hire PR agencies to tell the world how evil they are. Reagan called the wrong country "empire of evil" ... north Korea is not big enough to qualify as empire.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 45):
I think 2nd children are allowed in some cases these days.

oh, they always did.. like if your first child died and you are an obedient communist. No chance if you dared to be Christian or even know the word democracy.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46):
It all depends on where in China you live,

Doesn´t matter.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46):
Now the one child policy has been relaxed, but it hasn't lead to an explosion of children, it appears that most families only want 1 or 2 children, same old story as people become more affluent the birth rate drops.

Of course not, that doesn´t mean the country isn´t run by a bunch of murders, not that their approach should be copied.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Al Gore Promoting Population Control

Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:36 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 48):
That is like asking an American "are you guys still bombing Laos" during the Vietnam war, Americans where pretty much the only people that didn´t know about it. They don´t hire PR agencies to tell the world how evil they are. Reagan called the wrong country "empire of evil" ... north Korea is not big enough to qualify as empire.

He's an American citizen (came from China when he was ~8) and is not a big fan of the government over there.........

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