I posted this in the FIFA thread but it would have been better placed here.

"As long as people continue to drag up the past with claim and counter claim, attributing fault to others and denying their own, we can not expect any progress. As todareisinger said, "Re-writing history is ... fashionable," and that applies just as much to Holocaust denial as it does to Nabka denial. The question is, why keep on emphasing the past? Is it intended to block progress and justify one's own inflexibility and willingness to compromise? Perhaps we need to "forget the past" so that we can forgive and move on. Not forget in the sense of pretending it didn't happen but in the sense that the future is what we need to focus on.

"Perhaps the solution would be for the Palestinians to accept a unitary state that ensures everyone enjoys full equality before the law, not just vague civil rights but full citizenship and no expulsions. With active participation in the Knesset and in Government, they will be in a position to ensure peace, clarification of land title and a viable future.

"But of course, any "right to return" would have to apply equally to Jews and Arabs. If it didn't, then there could be no talk of all being treated equally. There may be objection to this because it might threaten the idea of a "Jewish Homeland." Yet as we have seen with Jews in the diaspora, the right to return is not the same as the desire to return. Those Palestinians who have residency or citizenship in other countries might choose to remain where they are. "

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 198): How could "the Swiss government" kill someone?

With guns?

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 198): Of course that a triple murder in the Streets of Zurich would create more attention and shock in Switzerland than the killing of 50 people in Somalia or in Iraq, but this is because of geographical proximity and media attention, not because Somalia or Iraq are countries which "do not adhere to human rights".

I disagree. Don't you think Switzerland has evolved past its government mowing down protesters? Of course we shouldn't condone any other country doing it but at the same time, we reward progress... when terrible countries go from terrible to bad, they are usually rewarded. If Switzerland went from a first world country status to executing protesters here and there, the west would raise hell.

Do you at least understand what I'm saying? We may just have to agree to disagree but I want you to at least understand where I'm going with this

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 198): BTW, if human rights should not be applied universally, who should decide about the concept's application? Who should decide whether a given population or a given individual should enjoy the protection of human rights or should be deprived of this protection? The UN? The International Court of Justice? Still another to-be-created international body? Each government?

That is a good question. IDK. Maybe it's just one of those things. How do you determine what is moral? No matter what morality (at least the ones I've seen) there is a lot of gray area and sometimes things are uncertain.

We try and set up something central (the UN et al) but they often get ignored. Sometimes it takes regional pressure. Sometimes, single countries can bully others. Sometimes what is moral one day is immoral the next. It's very subjective.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 198): Or maybe a triumvirate composed of The Commodore, Lewis and DeltaMD90...?

Did I just say morality is subjective? I obviously never heard of the The Commodore/Lewis/DeltaMD90 Triumvirate 

This was posted by a friend recently, and I want to share it, regarding Israel and Apartheid.

Kidnapped Nigerian Girls and Israel
The world stands aghast at the kidnapping of 279 Nigerian girls by Muslim terrorists. What few of the press stories relate is that this is not a first of this type of event, it is merely a continuation that has at last captured the world’s attention. Terrorism is a fact of life in many parts of Africa, but somehow, most escapes the public’s attention. Why? The simple fact is that the public has limited attention, and there is one primary war that has captured the world’s attention, that of the Palestinians.
The war against Israel in fought in the media, on University campuses worldwide, and at the UN where there is an unrelenting obsessive focus on demonizing Israel in the UN Human Rights Council.
Hamas and Fatah, supported by Iran, offer disinformation on University Campuses labeling Israel as an Apartheid State. As a participant in South Africa’s liberation struggle, I am excruciatingly aware of the meaning of the term Apartheid, and applying it to Israel is demeaning to the fight for black liberation, and in fact, an outright lie. Misinformation is offered to International politicians and journalists, who mostly accept this without question, while Israel’s facts are rejected out of hand.
This propaganda war is merely one further aspect of the continuing Arab war against Israel since 1948. The world has forgotten how those territories became occupied in the first place, nor do they want to recall why Israel had to build a wall; it is only data that can vilify Israel that is presented and accepted.
That the Palestinians have so dominated the world's stage with a false narrative, means that the Central African Republic, Chad, Democratic Republic of Congo, Nigeria, Somalia, Kenya and all other locations where there is ongoing terrorism, are pushed off the front pages, and the terrorists are able to act with impunity, out of the spotlight. The Palestinian / Arab war against Israel has the unintended consequence of allowing the kidnapping of these Nigerian girls, the Copts to be persecuted, and the Kurds to remain occupied.
There seems to be no hesitancy in titling 50+ countries - Arab Republics, or Muslim in the names of the countries, yet there is no will to describe Israel as Jewish. It is a breathtakingly double standard. Zionism, the desire for Jewish self-determination, is considered Apartheid, while French desire for Frenchness, or Armenia’s desire to be Armenian are considered normal. Only Jews are singled out, is that not Apartheid itself?
Canards against Israel are repeated with regularity in European media, whenever these are discovered to be false, there are few if any retractions, and no hesitation in reporting on the next series of lies repeated by the same proponents. When there is proven fraud by media sources, without hesitation on further reporting without fact checking, that is media fraud.
When there is exclusively concern shown for Palestinians in “occupied territories” and virtually no focus on Palestinians suffering in Lebanon or Syria, it is obvious that the defining characteristic that brings sympathetic attention is that Israel is the opponent.
As a consumer of facts, I am unable to understand how Israel has successfully been able to be portrayed as the aggressor, and this to be believed by so many. During the Gaza war, when Israel took months to respond to continued barrages of rockets into Israel, Israel’s detractors labelled Israel’s response "disproportionate". What would Europe call a "proportionate" response if a foreign entity began sending bombs into population centers in London, with the stated intent to kill and main as many citizens as possible?. A double standard by any stretch of the imagination!
Many appear to believe lies against Israel by default, when the conduct of Israel's detractors are antithetical to "European Standards", i.e. women’s' rights, the death penalty for gay people in so many of the Arab countries, lack of free speech and other basic civil rights. Holding the one Jewish country to a standard that no other country is expected to meet, is simply anti-Semitism, and the Palestinians’ have managed to parlay this into becoming the highest per capita recipients of foreign aid in the world, with broad unobjective sympathy. How fortunate for them that their chosen enemy are Jews.
The Palestinian cause is no more sympathetic than the ongoing 49 territorial disputes in Africa,
62 in Asia, 23 in Europe, and 2 in North America (plus 7 between USA and Canada alone), 8 in the Caribbean, 11 in South America, as well as hundreds of other causes in the world, their unique difference is that their opponent is a Jewish State.
The current group of kidnapped girls of Nigeria are finally receiving attention, the previous kidnap victims and the other victims of terrorism worldwide are part of the unintended, expendable consequences of the Palestinian war against Israel because a Jew as an opponent, is far more valuable than any other genuine cause.
How the world changes yet everything remains the same.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): This was posted by a friend recently, and I want to share it, regarding Israel and Apartheid.

May we know who that friend is?

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): The Palestinian cause is no more sympathetic than the ongoing 49 territorial disputes in Africa, 62 in Asia, 23 in Europe, and 2 in North America (plus 7 between USA and Canada alone), 8 in the Caribbean, 11 in South America, as well as hundreds of other causes in the world,

A territorial dispute is much more different than a country occupied, houses and lands confiscated, disregard to the plight of hundred of thousands of homeless Palestinians, etc....

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): expendable consequences of the Palestinian war against Israel because a Jew

Our dispute is with Israel and Zionism, not Jews.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): is far more valuable than any other genuine cause

Not if you are Palestinian.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): Misinformation is offered to International politicians and journalists, who mostly accept this without question, while Israel’s facts are rejected out of hand.

Strange, we all know who control 90% of the media in the west.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): French desire for Frenchness, or Armenia’s to be Armenians

Are those new religion?

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): no focus on Palestinians suffering in Lebanon or Syria,

Who is the main responsible for there suffering?

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): Hamas and Fatah, supported by Iran

Hamas maybe but not Fatah.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): How the world changes yet everything remains the same.

No it doesn't as long as Israel is building more and more new settlements.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 198): Of course that a triple murder in the Streets of Zurich would create more attention and shock in Switzerland than the killing of 50 people in Somalia or in Iraq, but this is because of geographical proximity and media attention, not because Somalia or Iraq are countries which "do not adhere to human rights".

It's because it is not a daily occurence. News very fast becomes olds.

Switzerland has less geographic proximity to the US than Somalia and other such countries but I would bet that the killing of 50 people in a church in Zurich would be headline news over there. When this sort of thing occurs in Africa it gets a footnote which has probably just been pulled from last weeks episode and tweaked.

Since when was having an opinion being arrogant ?

Maybe it is in your part of the world, but it ain't here. And as a lawyer, I would have thought having an opinion was right up your ally ?

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 198): I let you go and explain this nice concept to the families of the 200 abducted girls in Nigeria, for instance.

Why don't you stick to the topic at hand, and stop trying to derail the thread by bring unrelated issues into it !

If you want to start a thread on the kidnapped girls in Nigera, go right ahead.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 198): The UN?

Israel takes absolute no notice of any resolution when it comes to the UN, especially regarding settlements,human rights, etc despite it being a member country ... But they expect others too, go figure ?

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 198): The International Court of Justice?

This is actually something the seems to scare the sh-t out of Israel...... wonder why ??????

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 198): Or maybe a triumvirate composed of The Commodore, Lewis and DeltaMD90...?

Where do I sign up ?

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): Kidnapped Nigerian Girls and Israel

Lets compare apples with apples shall we.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): That the Palestinians have so dominated the world's stage with a false narrative

The very same can be said of Israel

Oh..... what a fair and balanced load of rubbish that is ... you really gotta be kidding right ?

Hello zrs70,

it's a very good post. And the ones of us who understand what's happening in the Middle East and Africa/North Africa, has exactly below thinking in the mind. It is obvious for the opponents of Israel (and everything it is) to fight here to disagree. But below text is not done for them. Because they will never change their mind or try to understand things on an upper level. They are born in different societies or surroundings, different education at home, different thoughts at home and in their environment (far family, friends, partner etc.).

But below text is good for the ones that are still insecure about what's going on exactly and what opinion to have. They are in majority.

Regarding governments and Israel, don't forget that under the table, you will hear much different things on opinions about Israel, than openly (speeches, Media etc.) where oil, big markets (aircrafts etc.) and huge natural ressources are dealt globally with, and you don't want to make your clients mad or openly disagree.

The U.N. is a mirror of global politics. Most accusations against the little country of Israel (not to make clients mad), but somehow not (too much) pressure on their application. Because the smart ones up there, are not stupid. They know the truth.

Regards.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 203): This was posted by a friend recently, and I want to share it, regarding Israel and Apartheid. Kidnapped Nigerian Girls and Israel The world stands aghast at the kidnapping of 279 Nigerian girls by Muslim terrorists. What few of the press stories relate is that this is not a first of this type of event, it is merely a continuation that has at last captured the world’s attention. Terrorism is a fact of life in many parts of Africa, but somehow, most escapes the public’s attention. Why? The simple fact is that the public has limited attention, and there is one primary war that has captured the world’s attention, that of the Palestinians. The war against Israel in fought in the media, on University campuses worldwide, and at the UN where there is an unrelenting obsessive focus on demonizing Israel in the UN Human Rights Council. Hamas and Fatah, supported by Iran, offer disinformation on University Campuses labeling Israel as an Apartheid State. As a participant in South Africa’s liberation struggle, I am excruciatingly aware of the meaning of the term Apartheid, and applying it to Israel is demeaning to the fight for black liberation, and in fact, an outright lie. Misinformation is offered to International politicians and journalists, who mostly accept this without question, while Israel’s facts are rejected out of hand. This propaganda war is merely one further aspect of the continuing Arab war against Israel since 1948. The world has forgotten how those territories became occupied in the first place, nor do they want to recall why Israel had to build a wall; it is only data that can vilify Israel that is presented and accepted. That the Palestinians have so dominated the world's stage with a false narrative, means that the Central African Republic, Chad, Democratic Republic of Congo, Nigeria, Somalia, Kenya and all other locations where there is ongoing terrorism, are pushed off the front pages, and the terrorists are able to act with impunity, out of the spotlight. The Palestinian / Arab war against Israel has the unintended consequence of allowing the kidnapping of these Nigerian girls, the Copts to be persecuted, and the Kurds to remain occupied. There seems to be no hesitancy in titling 50+ countries - Arab Republics, or Muslim in the names of the countries, yet there is no will to describe Israel as Jewish. It is a breathtakingly double standard. Zionism, the desire for Jewish self-determination, is considered Apartheid, while French desire for Frenchness, or Armenia’s desire to be Armenian are considered normal. Only Jews are singled out, is that not Apartheid itself? Canards against Israel are repeated with regularity in European media, whenever these are discovered to be false, there are few if any retractions, and no hesitation in reporting on the next series of lies repeated by the same proponents. When there is proven fraud by media sources, without hesitation on further reporting without fact checking, that is media fraud. When there is exclusively concern shown for Palestinians in “occupied territories” and virtually no focus on Palestinians suffering in Lebanon or Syria, it is obvious that the defining characteristic that brings sympathetic attention is that Israel is the opponent. As a consumer of facts, I am unable to understand how Israel has successfully been able to be portrayed as the aggressor, and this to be believed by so many. During the Gaza war, when Israel took months to respond to continued barrages of rockets into Israel, Israel’s detractors labelled Israel’s response "disproportionate". What would Europe call a "proportionate" response if a foreign entity began sending bombs into population centers in London, with the stated intent to kill and main as many citizens as possible?. A double standard by any stretch of the imagination! Many appear to believe lies against Israel by default, when the conduct of Israel's detractors are antithetical to "European Standards", i.e. women’s' rights, the death penalty for gay people in so many of the Arab countries, lack of free speech and other basic civil rights. Holding the one Jewish country to a standard that no other country is expected to meet, is simply anti-Semitism, and the Palestinians’ have managed to parlay this into becoming the highest per capita recipients of foreign aid in the world, with broad unobjective sympathy. How fortunate for them that their chosen enemy are Jews. The Palestinian cause is no more sympathetic than the ongoing 49 territorial disputes in Africa, 62 in Asia, 23 in Europe, and 2 in North America (plus 7 between USA and Canada alone), 8 in the Caribbean, 11 in South America, as well as hundreds of other causes in the world, their unique difference is that their opponent is a Jewish State. The current group of kidnapped girls of Nigeria are finally receiving attention, the previous kidnap victims and the other victims of terrorism worldwide are part of the unintended, expendable consequences of the Palestinian war against Israel because a Jew as an opponent, is far more valuable than any other genuine cause. How the world changes yet everything remains the same.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): This was posted by a friend recently, and I want to share it, regarding Israel and Apartheid.

Let me guess this was written by an Israeli?

Quoting Alfons (Reply 206): it's a very good post.

It's about as credible as some Goebbels would have written.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 207): Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): This was posted by a friend recently, and I want to share it, regarding Israel and Apartheid. Let me guess this was written by an Israeli? Quoting Alfons (Reply 206): it's a very good post. It's about as credible as some Goebbels would have written.

You are amazing, KiwiRob.

The article is as much a pro-Israel propoganda piece as many of the media attacks on Israel but in terms of apartheid the article is perhaps correct. Media are very keen to apply keyword classification based on sales value.
Apartheid, racism anti-semitism, sexism terrorism clearly all have monetary value to the press and many articles seem to work hard to stretch the true meaning of these words to fit at least one of them into a situation where it doesn't really belong. AFAIK the Israeli government does not have an official policy of racial segregation but the mooted change in constitution which is the opening point of this thread postulates the possible introduction of such a policy and it is this which brings the term into the headlines.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): The world has forgotten how those territories became occupied in the first place,

An old history text I read recently refers to an 'unprovoked attack' by Israel in 1957 to gain control of the Gaza Strip (Abetted by the British and French who wanted the Suez Canal).

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): at the UN where there is an unrelenting obsessive focus on demonizing Israel in the UN Human Rights Council.

I thought that there was an unrelenting obsessive focus on demonising Iran. Israel probably comes after NK. A lot of the talk about Israel at the UN is probably because any resolution against Israel is either vetoed by the US or flatly ignored by Israel. Obviously this irks the delegates who need to make themselves feel effective.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): That the Palestinians have so dominated the world's stage with a false narrative, means that the Central African Republic, Chad, Democratic Republic of Congo, Nigeria, Somalia, Kenya and all other locations where there is ongoing terrorism, are pushed off the front pages, and the terrorists are able to act with impunity, out of the spotlight.

In many of these cases the term terrorist is not really correct. Where you have an army of 5000 fighting for ownership of a piece of land they used to be guerillas or resistance not terrorists. In Somalia for example the Al Shabaab openly wore paramilitary uniforms in the portions of the capital and countryside that they controlled and administered. That is warfare - not terrorism.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): There seems to be no hesitancy in titling 50+ countries - Arab Republics, or Muslim in the names of the countries, yet there is no will to describe Israel as Jewish.

The key to this thread was that Israel wishes to be known as a 'jewish state for jews only' I've not yet come across a 'muslim state for muslims only'

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): Many appear to believe lies against Israel by default,

That is true. But many believe that the US never landed on the moon or that Iran is a nation of born terrorists.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): when the conduct of Israel's detractors are antithetical to "European Standards", i.e. women’s' rights,

And yet in Israel girls are attacked walking to school by jewish extremists and in some areas women are not permitted to walk on the same side of the street as men. Accepting that this is not official government policy the government has not seemed to be over keen to rectify the situation in these areas.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): Holding the one Jewish country to a standard that no other country is expected to meet,

Holding the one jewish country to the same standard that we would demand of a western european country.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): The Palestinian / Arab war against Israel has the unintended consequence of allowing the kidnapping of these Nigerian girls, the Copts to be persecuted, and the Kurds to remain occupied.

Saying (writing) that and keeping a straight face requires a high level of disconnection with the world. Boko Haram DGARA about the world, they're spreading their fear locally.

Yes I agree, that's other bad stuff happening, but Palestine and Israel have been in this predicament for more than 3 generations and spin it as you want, much of the animosity between the west and the middle east (dare I say Muslim world) stems from this conflict and the West's tacit approval of the situation. Would it hurt the world to finally resolve the situation?

Sorry, but I fail to see what exactly Israel would be losing by offering a fair deal to the Palestinians (ie: '67 borders, east Jerusalem, co-management of the water resources) and as far as i'm concerned then building a giant wall on the border. I still feel however that all of the peace processes and what not's are a policy of appeasement to the West (but we're trying to make peace!) while the settling continues.

And guys, anyone making the claim that Jordan is the original Palestine - these people have been living here for generations (much more than say a certain minister of foreign affairs) and they haven't lived in Jordan. What you are proposing is genocide of these people from THEIR land to a foreign land, so someone who attests that he was given the land by an entity that does not play a role in any legal process (in any sane country that is) can move in and take it all. Sorry. Won't work.

D.

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 209): Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): There seems to be no hesitancy in titling 50+ countries - Arab Republics, or Muslim in the names of the countries, yet there is no will to describe Israel as Jewish. The key to this thread was that Israel wishes to be known as a 'jewish state for jews only' I've not yet come across a 'muslim state for muslims only'

  

Let's make a distinction...any republic that calls itself Islamic is not solely for Muslims. According to official UN names, only four countries have the word 'Islamic' in their official name: Mauritania, Afghanistan, Iran, and Pakistan. While Muslims are the largest group there, at least Iran guarantees (up to a certain extent) freedom of religion and allows Jews and Christians to partake in their respective ceremonies. Afghanistan and Pakistan are volatile so I wouldn't say that minorities have their rights there, and I don't know much about Mauritania to make an opinion.

But there IS a country exclusively for Muslims: Saudi Arabia's official numbers show that 100% of the population is Muslim. Anyone who is not Muslim must convert or avoid observing other religious non-Islamic ceremonies. Of course, Saudi Arabia is also host to Mecca, but then again, you CAN have a Vatican-like state in Mecca while the rest of the country has more relaxed rules...

But here's another difference between the Islamic states and what a Jewish state would be (hence why the A-word is rearing its ugly head): in the Islamic states, the Muslims are not in danger of being a minority. Their numbers will remain well maintained for years to come. Can Israel say the same? Become the Jewish state for the Jews only (which COULD (not saying will) become the minority)?

Quoting Alfons (Reply 208): You are amazing, KiwiRob.

What's more amazing is that someone would post that crap with a straight face and that others would believe it  

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202):

I have a problem with it right off the bat, and it probably goes a long way to explain the disconnect between the two sides. I've said it many times--the Israeli-Palestine conflict affects the West a whole lot more than most other conflicts. Period.

It's not some huge conspiracy, it's not that the Palestinians have captured the world stage, no. Humans instinctively pay attention to things that affect them more.

If you believe the article, you are completely missing where me and many other people are coming from

Quoting Alfons (Reply 206): Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 203): This was posted by a friend recently, and I want to share it, regarding Israel and Apartheid.

Alfons, you did quote the wrong person.   

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 213): If you believe the article, you are completely missing where me and many other people are coming from

and where are you coming from?

Quoting Alfons (Reply 215): and where are you coming from?

Depends what we are talking about. I was specifically talking about why we (or at least I) focus on the Israel-Palestine issue... it's because it affects us a lot more so of course it's gonna get more attention. Has nothing to do with Palestinians "capturing the world stage" or me hating Jews (for some odd reason I do not understand)

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 216): it's because it affects us a lot more

why it is affecting you a lot more?

Quoting Alfons (Reply 217): why it is affecting you a lot more?

Because I'm American and America's support for Israel in the Israel-Palestine debate has been cited many times in terrorist attacks. I thought I answered this a few times already.

I'll try and be predictive and answer some more questions before they're asked. No, the US' support for Israel is not the only reason for terrorism against the US. No, terrorism against the US won't stop if we stop supporting Israel. No, the US shouldn't ever pussy out just because there is terrorism--do what is right (whether that is disagreeing with our ally, Israel, over some actions, defending Israel when they are being picked on, or both.) No, I'm not placing the blame on Israel for terrorists attacking America (though I do think some terrorism, extremism, and hatred will go down if we are less biased and less unfair towards the Palestinians)

My whole point is that it's not very surprising that so many people focus on this issue much more than other issues. It's not because they are antisemitic (although there are antisemites) and it's not because the Palestinians have "stolen the world stage" (though they have made a lot of noise and I'm sure many have been drawn into it because of the noise they made.)

Quoting Alfons (Reply 206): it's a very good post.

To flush down the toilet !

Quoting Alfons (Reply 206): Regarding governments and Israel, don't forget that under the table, you will hear much different things on opinions about Israel, than openly (speeches, Media etc.) where oil, big markets (aircrafts etc.) and huge natural ressources are dealt globally with, and you don't want to make your clients mad or openly disagree. The U.N. is a mirror of global politics. Most accusations against the little country of Israel (not to make clients mad), but somehow not (too much) pressure on their application. Because the smart ones up there, are not stupid. They know the truth.

What ????????

Quoting Alfons (Reply 208): You are amazing, KiwiRob.

Isn't he   

Quoting Alfons (Reply 215): and where are you coming from?

Where the hell do you think hes coming from.... the planet Zorb

Heard of it ?

Here's a great Op-Ed in today's LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed...rael-apartheid-20140518-story.html

The war against Israel has passed through three phases.

The first was the attempt to annihilate Israel by conventional means. It began with Israel's birth in 1948, when Arab armies nearly captured Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, and ended in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, when Israeli forces came within artillery range of Cairo and Damascus.

The next stage, starting in the early 1970s, sought to cripple Israel through terror. Suicide bombers nearly paralyzed the country, but by 2005 they too were defeated.

However unwittingly, those who associate apartheid with Israel are aiding the third and perhaps ultimate stage in the effort to destroy the nation.
-
That is when Israel's enemies launched the third, and potentially most devastating, campaign: to isolate, delegitimize and sanction Israel into extinction. And a key weapon in this stage is the hugely destructive word "apartheid."

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 220): That is when Israel's enemies launched the third, and potentially most devastating, campaign: to isolate, delegitimize and sanction Israel into extinction. And a key weapon in this stage is the hugely destructive word "apartheid."

By pointing out Israel's flaws? Heaven forbid.

I have no intention of abandoning Israel, at all. They have a huge target on their heads and there is a ton of unjustified ill will towards them. But I (and many others) don't just pick a side and support that side 200%. Should people support anything 100% without question?

I am at a lost at how you can hear what I've been saying and think that it's hateful again Israel and will lead to its destruction. I think (and hope) that even if you disagree with me, you see I'm going about it in an honest and rational way. Some crap that Israel catches is just garbage, but other concerns are very valid. If you just lump it all into one and dismiss it you just ignore valid criticism that is pissing a lot of the world off and it just makes it much harder for Israel.

I mean seriously, I don't think people getting more and more mad at Israel is Palestine's fault... it's Israel's fault to just ignoring us or lumping us all in with the antisemitism crowd. You can't read my mind so you can't 100% know that I'm not antisemitic but I know I'm not antisemitic and when I'm treated as such, yes it really pisses me off and it makes me a lot less sympathetic towards your cause (though I try and see past the anger and support what I see is right even if who I'm supporting attacks me and makes me angry.) Multiply that across millions of non-antisemitic people and you get what you're seeing now--a decreasing amount of people that support Israel.

You guys are doing a ton of it to yourselves, please, stop being so hard line, admit some faults, and work towards solutions. I promise you if you do that you'll see a lot more support for your cause


Edit: words have meaning, powerful meanings, but I wouldn't recommend arguing much against the word "apartheid." Of course there are differences, no one is disputing that. But saying what Israel is doing is not nearly as bad as what South Africa did is not that convincing of a defense... It's just tiptoeing around the issue

[Edited 2014-05-18 08:06:10]

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 220): the hugely destructive word "apartheid."

Undoubtedly there are those who wish to see the back of Israel at whatever cost and their reasons might be out of genuine sympathy for Palestinians or it may simply be hatred of Jews. But not everyone who has used the word "apartheid" can be described as antisemitic.

Some of the people who have used the term have served Israel in positions of authority and there can be no doubting of their commitment to defending Israel. If wiki is to be believed, these people include former cabinet ministers, judges and even members of the defence establishment. According to a former Italian Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon even spoke of the "bantustan model".

An Education Minister in Rabin's government, Shulamit Aloni, said "... the state of Israel practises its own, quite violent, form of Apartheid with the native Palestinian population...through its army, the government of Israel practises a brutal form of Apartheid in the territory it occupies."

Another Minister who served under both Rabin and Peres, in comparing Israel with South Africa wrote, "...what acts like apartheid, is run like apartheid and harasses like apartheid, is not a duck—it is apartheid."

And in warning of a collapse of a negotiated settlement, Ehud Barak said, "As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish, or non-democratic," ... "If this bloc of millions of ­Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...03/barak-apartheid-palestine-peace

Straight from the horses mouth, as it were. Few here could describe Barak, one of Israel's most decorated soldiers, of being an anti-Semite. Now, if prominent Israeli's argue that Israel is, or is in danger of becoming an apartheid state, can we be surprised that her enemies use the same term?

[Edited 2014-05-18 19:31:48]

I just read this interesting article on Palestinian youth being detained by Israel

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middle...-isolation-201451965832961918.html

Tell me again how we need to defend Israel tooth and nail?

I am not saying Palestinians are blameless. Neither side is. I think we should look at both sides before we defend one or the other.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 219): Isn't he

Aww shucks TheCommodore, you're a pretty good bloke too  

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 172): Well, the Irgun notified the British of their intent to bomb the hotel

So that makes everything ok?

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 160): as an Israeli I should feel actually very honored to see that my tiny country is obviously so central in the existence and obsessions of so many people all around the world

Should a North Korean feel similarly?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 178): those neighborhoods, they are experiencing natural growth of their population.

I know people who were paid to move there from AKL. Natural growth that is not. The irony of Israel importing a population to live in the West Bank is not lost on me.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 179): Jordan and Egypt have a peace treaty with Israel. And so what? Is this a proof that there are no tensions in these countries? Totally out of subject.

The Jordanian and Egyptian governments aren't a threat to Israel.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 179): Iran was not mentioned as a threat to Israel. But actually it is. However, the notion of missiles and ballistic missiles might be unknown to you.

Given that Israel has a better airforce and a substantial nuclear arsenal of their own, what does Iran have to gain from sending a ballistic missile Israel's way?

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): there is one primary war that has captured the world’s attention, that of the Palestinians.

Nope, that would be Syria at the moment.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): Palestinians’ have managed to parlay this into becoming the highest per capita recipients of foreign aid in the world

Source/evidence please.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): French desire for Frenchness, or Armenia’s desire to be Armenian are considered normal.

As it happens, my great-grandparents were Armenian. And yet, I'm not using that as a justification to colonize Van nor Deir Ez-Zor. Israelis meanwhile are using their heritage to justify colonizing the West Bank.

Last night I read this article in the Indy:

Quote: Benjamin Netanyahu under fire from right wingers for letting his son date a non-Jew Benjamin Netanyahu has been criticised by right-wing politicians in Israel who have accused the country’s prime minister of failing to set an example for the Jewish people by not preventing his son from dating a non-Jewish girl. Yair Netanyahu, a 23-year-old student, is thought to be dating a Norwegian woman after the pair met at the prestigious Interdisciplinary Center in Herzliya, Israel, which they both attend. “It’s a big problem,” Nissim Ze’ev, a politician representing the ultra-orthodox Shas party, told the Jerusalem Post. “As the prime minister of Israel and the Jewish people, he must display national responsibility via the values he presents inside his own household. “I bet it pains him. Any Jew who wants to maintain his roots wants to see his son marry a Jewish girl,” Mr Ze’ev said. “All I can say is that it is very unfortunate,” said Moshe Feiglin, head of the Jewish Leadership faction of Israel’s centre-right Likud party. The right-wing anti-assimilation organisation Lehava, which is strongly opposed to intermarriage between Jews and non-Jews, has been more outspoken: “Bibi’s son has found a Gentile! His father is proud of him and gives legitimacy to the assimilation and destruction of the Jewish people.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...his-son-date-a-nonjew-9088981.html

And therein is the source of the problem of institutionalized racism. What kind of country is it where the ethnicity/religion of someone's child's lover actually matters? And that is the difference. The French's desire for Frenchness doesn't cause people to start moaning when someone French dates/marrys/reproduces with someone who isn't. I personally don't give a rat's behind as to what religion/ethnicity any of John Key's children's lovers have. Nor Francois Hollande's, David Cunliffe, Jean Francois Cope etc, etc

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): Only Jews are singled out, is that not Apartheid itself?

Have a read about the Koenig Memorandum. It shows how the government actively tries to reduce a certain area's population of Arabs. Seems sickly apartheid like to me.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 201): I disagree. Don't you think Switzerland has evolved past its government mowing down protesters? Of course we shouldn't condone any other country doing it but at the same time, we reward progress... when terrible countries go from terrible to bad, they are usually rewarded. If Switzerland went from a first world country status to executing protesters here and there, the west would raise hell. Do you at least understand what I'm saying? We may just have to agree to disagree but I want you to at least understand where I'm going with this

No, sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 201): Did I just say morality is subjective?

Morality is subjective?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 203): Our dispute is with Israel and Zionism, not Jews.

No, sure. And what are Israelis and Zionists?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 203): Strange, we all know who control 90% of the media in the west.

"We all know". Who "we"? And "who" does conrol the media? The "Israelis and Zionists"...? Or you mean "the Jews"...? Yeah....if obsessional anti-Israelis could at least have the minimal level of good faith NOT to hide their true meanings and feelings...

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 205): Since when was having an opinion being arrogant ?

This was not the issue. The issue was to express an opinion in the name of someone else. And this is indeed arrogant. But with bad faith, you are changing the subject.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 205): Quoting todareisinger (Reply 198):I let you go and explain this nice concept to the families of the 200 abducted girls in Nigeria, for instance. Why don't you stick to the topic at hand, and stop trying to derail the thread by bring unrelated issues into it !

It is fully part of the thread. And again: I let you explain to these families that they live in a country which does "not adhere" to human rights and that therefore they should stop complaining about what happened.

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 209): Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202):The world has forgotten how those territories became occupied in the first place, An old history text I read recently refers to an 'unprovoked attack' by Israel in 1957 to gain control of the Gaza Strip (Abetted by the British and French who wanted the Suez Canal).

"We all know" that Israel has always conducted unprovoked attacks. It is the essence of Israel.

Now for your knowledge, the the Gaza area and the whole Sinai were returned to Egypt soon after the 1957 conflict. So, the notion that Israel wanted "to gain control of the Gaza Strip" is false, and there is no link between this conflict and the current situation.

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 209): The key to this thread was that Israel wishes to be known as a 'jewish state for jews only' I've not yet come across a 'muslim state for muslims only'

A Jewish State "for Jews only"? This is your personal interpretation. Wih more than one million Israeli citizens who are not Jews, success was apparently not met.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 213): I've said it many times--the Israeli-Palestine conflict affects the West a whole lot more than most other conflicts. Period. It's not some huge conspiracy, it's not that the Palestinians have captured the world stage, no. Humans instinctively pay attention to things that affect them more.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 216): it's because it affects us a lot more so of course it's gonna get more attention. Has nothing to do with Palestinians "capturing the world stage" or me hating Jews (for some odd reason I do not understand)

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 218): No, I'm not placing the blame on Israel for terrorists attacking America

Very sadly, this is exactly what you are doing. Even if you don't feel this way, by your words and your weird reasonings, you are very precisely placing the blame on Israel for terrorists attacking America.

To change this odd opinion, you might think a little about terrorist attacks against citizens of countries which are NOT known to be close allies of Israel, such as Australia, Spain, Russia or Kenya.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 221): You guys are doing a ton of it to yourselves, please, stop being so hard line, admit some faults, and work towards solutions. I promise you if you do that you'll see a lot more support for your cause

Which "guys"?

Who is "hard line" and in what?

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 222): An Education Minister in Rabin's government, Shulamit Aloni, said "...

I guess you don't know anything about her.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 225): Given that Israel has a better airforce and a substantial nuclear arsenal of their own, what does Iran have to gain from sending a ballistic missile Israel's way?

I don't want to take the chance of seeing what Tehran might gain from it. Have a look on a map and compare sizes....

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): Morality is subjective?

Given that the views of morality vary from one society to another it would appear so. Some people consider gay relationships immoral, others don't. Some people consider any sex outside marriage a sin, others don't. Morality is not etched in tablets of stone. It does change over time and space.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): guess you don't know anything about her.

From your isolating that part of my response can I deduce that you didn't like her politically?

Funnily enough, the comments she made some years ago regarding visits to Auschwitz do have some semblance to truth. On a previous visit I did see a troop of uniformly dressed students marching and bearing the flag of Israel. Some of the people around me commented that it resembled a political demonstration more than remembering and paying respect to the dead. That may not have been the intent but it made that impression on some of those around me.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): No, sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Well sorry. I tried.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): Morality is subjective?

To an extent, yes. I don't believe that if someone believes they can murder someone and be moral it's OK, yet I don't believe the "answers" are written in some holy book, especially some of the ones I've seen. There is some truly awful things in the books some people use as examples of perfect, god given morals

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): Very sadly, this is exactly what you are doing. Even if you don't feel this way, by your words and your weird reasonings, you are very precisely placing the blame on Israel for terrorists attacking America

I can't think of any situation where if justify an organization targeting civilians, and I haven't seen a good example from Islamists. That doesn't change the fact that OBL cited as a reason for 9/11 the US supporting Israel, and them being mad at Israel for how poorly they can treat the Palestinians

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): Which "guys"? Who is "hard line" and in what?

I'm not naming names. If you don't know who I'm talking about then I can't help you there. Hard line? Unilaterally supporting everything Israel does. Of course I know that can't be true but I never see anyone "pro-Israel" ever ever condemn Israel, at all. When I ask about settlement building or what parts of Israel's policies one disagrees with regarding Israel, I get nothing. Prove me wrong, please. I have no desire to "win," I want to learn.

Not saying this is what you're doing, but smart ass or condescending remarks are just wasted on me. I'm more than happy to listen, that's why I'm on here and why I debate on these issues. If I had no desire to change my mind, I wouldn't be here.

So please, try and get where I'm coming from and try to convey your point of view. I haven't really seen that too much from the "pro-Israel" side

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): No, sure. And what are Israelis and Zionists?

I am sure that you will find a lot of differences between a religion and a political movement.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): "We all know". Who "we"? And "who" does conrol the media? The "Israelis and Zionists"...? Or you mean "the Jews"...? Yeah....if obsessional anti-Israelis could at least have the minimal level of good faith NOT to hide their true meanings and feelings...

Instead of coming into this discussion with an idea to help you came in with all guns blazing. I am free to choose my words, you don't like it, your problem, if you read any of my postings you know that i don;t mince my words and yes i hate Zionism but have no problem with the Jewish religion. If you are hinting that all Zionist are jews, i know that but not all Jews are Zionists. Think about it.

What's amazing to me about this thread - and so many like it - is the lack of basic math.

I learned at a young age to find common denominators.

If we look around the world, there are common denominators when it comes to terrorist acts. Is it 100% accurate. Of course not. But when an act of terror happens, people rarely look to the Buddhists to blame.

So then we take Israel/ Palestine. The voices of so many here look at Israel squarely as the sole culprit. Does this make sense?

Now, can I be critical of Israel? Of course. One of the things I LOVE about Israel is that we are allowed to be critical. Many of those living in surrounding nations are NOT allowed to publicly be critical.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 230): So then we take Israel/ Palestine. The voices of so many here look at Israel squarely as the sole culprit. Does this make sense?

No, and I hope you aren't talking about me...

If someone puts blame on Israel for something in a post doesn't mean that's the only reason for the conflict. It's hard, annoying, and unnecessary (I would hope) to put that disclaimer on every single post

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): A Jewish State "for Jews only"? This is your personal interpretation. Wih more than one million Israeli citizens who are not Jews, success was apparently not met.

Do you have any guarantees that the actual or future governments will not kick those non Jews out of Israel, it's not like this did not happen before.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 232): Do you have any guarantees that the actual or future governments will not kick those non Jews out of Israel, it's not like this did not happen before.

Before I offer a response, tell us about the various religious of Saudi Arabia?

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 233): Before I offer a response, tell us about the various religious of Saudi Arabia?

Islam, now lets go back to our discussion, and don't answer a question with a question unless you don't know/want to answer, i will understand.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 234): slam, now lets go back to our discussion, and don't answer a question with a question unless you don't know/want to answer, i will understand.

Not so fast. What happened to the other religions? What happens if a person from another faith wants to express his/ her religion there now?

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 235): Not so fast.

Not so fast. Everybody on the planet knows that only one form of religion may be publicly expressed. The purpose of your question is to deflect and avoid answering the questions that have been put related to the subject of this thread.

If I ask my son, "why did you do that?" a reply that his brother does worse is not an acceptable answer but an evasion.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 236): If I ask my son, "why did you do that?" a reply that his brother does worse is not an acceptable answer but an evasion

Understood.... But why have so many threads attack Israel when there are FAR worse things going on in other places that are never called into question?

An evasion???? I've learned that we should never point a finger without asking looking at our own souls first.

So let's leave religion in Saudi Arabia aside.

How are gays and lesbians treated there?

[Edited 2014-05-25 20:55:07]

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 235): Not so fast. What happened to the other religions? What happens if a person from another faith wants to express his/ her religion there now?

You took the bait, KSA never kicked anybody from his home or took his land, Islam was The religion in the area, remember, Islam was born there.
Now take your time to think about it and maybe try to answer the question i asked earlier, will repeat it again just in case you can't remember it

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 232): Do you have any guarantees that the actual or future governments will not kick those non Jews out of Israel, it's not like this did not happen before.

Will try not to hold my breath waiting for an answer.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 238): Do you have any guarantees that the actual or future governments will not kick those non Jews out of Israel, it's not like this did not happen before.

I don't think there are any guarantees in life. But it would be contrary to what's in the Israeli Declaration of Independence.

Now, I didn't accuse SA of kicking anyone out (though we can go there). I did ask about what happens if other religions want to practice their religion there.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 237): But why have so many threads attack Israel when

Attack or criticise? Are the two words synonymous?
I have no doubt that some people may be motivated by an irrational hatred towards Jews but there are many more who support Israel while being critical.

As to far worse events occurring elsewhere, I can only agree and also point out that some have voiced condemnation of acts of violence in other threads related to those countries.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 237): How are gays and lesbians treated there?

Another deflection. Are you sure that you are a rabbi and not a lawyer?  

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 239): But it would be contrary to what's in the Israeli Declaration of Independence.

But in the Israeli Declaration of Independence there was no mention of a Jewish state (correct me if i am wrong please).

zrs70, lets be very clear here, i never attacked or criticised the Jewish religion, i was raised to respect all other religion and belief. I raised my chidren with the same.
My problem is with the Israeli governments who in my point of view are not making any real steps for a peaceful solution in the area, i could also blame some factions in the Palestinian groups (Hamas) of lack of control and there negative attitude towards such a solution.

Every time one of these threads start up, its the same old cast of characters. How bout we get a real Israeli and Palestinian in here to give us the real facts on the ground.

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter): Binyamin Netanyahu will push ahead with a rare change to Israel's basic laws – which amount to the country's constitution – to insist Israel is "the nation state of one people only – the Jewish people – and of no other people".

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): A Jewish State "for Jews only"? This is your personal interpretation.

I find it hard to see another interpretation for the quote in the opening post. Please let me know how you interpret "The jewish people - and of no other people"

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): Now for your knowledge, the the Gaza area and the whole Sinai were returned to Egypt soon after the 1957 conflict. So, the notion that Israel wanted "to gain control of the Gaza Strip" is false, and there is no link between this conflict and the current situation.

As well as insisiting that Gaza be returned the international community also insisted that the Suez canal be returned to Eygpt. Does that mean that the british had no interest in it when they invaded?

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 237): Understood.... But why have so many threads attack Israel when there are FAR worse things going on in other places that are never called into question?

Why don't you open a thread about the treatment of religious minorities and sexual deviance in Saudi Arabia?

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 242): Every time one of these threads start up, its the same old cast of characters. How bout we get a real Israeli and Palestinian in here to give us the real facts on the ground.

Nobody is stopping them from sharing.

Meanwhile....
...Naftali Bennett has proposed to annex Area C. http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/O...s-proposals-to-annex-Area-C-353223
... An officer has admitted that the IDF uses live-fire zones to expel Palestinians from areas of West Bank.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.591881

How kind.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 230):

I'm still waiting for a source on your claim in reply 202 that Palestinians are the:

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 202): highest per capita recipients of foreign aid in the world

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 229): I am sure that you will find a lot of differences between a religion and a political movement.

  

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 237): But why have so many threads attack Israel when there are FAR worse things going on in other places that are never called into question?

How dare people question any of the safety practices of Vueling/RyanAir/easyjet/WestJet/JetBlue (etc) when Lion Air of Indonesia has a FAR worse safety record.   It's the same argument, and its not a very good one.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 228): That doesn't change the fact that OBL cited as a reason for 9/11 the US supporting Israel, and them being mad at Israel for how poorly they can treat the Palestinians

And what did "OBL cite as a reason for" killing more than 200 Australian tourists in Bali? In case you're not aware, Australia has no "special relation" with Israel at all.

And what did "OBL cite as a reason for" killing 200 Spanish commuters? In case you're not aware, Spain has no "special relation" with Israel at all.

"......and them being mad at Israel for how poorly they can treat the Palestinians...." - are you kidding? Do you want anyone to believe that OBL and other murderous Islamic terrorists are so sensitive that they are suffering by seeing "how poorly Israel can treat the Palestinians" ? Truly, this is not serious. Look just for 30 seconds at what these terrorists are doing in Syria, a few kilometers from Israel, and you should understand that this way of thinking is frightingly wrong.

It is truly sad to see how easily many people can become manipulated by the ongoing anti-Israeli propaganda going on everywehere and all the time.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 228): Hard line? Unilaterally supporting everything Israel does. Of course I know that can't be true but I never see anyone "pro-Israel" ever ever condemn Israel, at all. When I ask about settlement building or what parts of Israel's policies one disagrees with regarding Israel, I get nothing. Prove me wrong, please. I have no desire to "win," I want to learn.

What do you want to learn, actually? How do you know I (or anyone else) "unilaterally supports everything Israel does" ?

I am not. BUT the core question in all these threads is not about one or another Israeli policy. It is directly and exclusively about Israel's legitimacy and Israel's right to exist. And concerning these 2 issues, I will never be against or on the "condemning" side. If this alone makes me a "hard liner" in your view I won't be able to learn you much.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 228): So please, try and get where I'm coming from and try to convey your point of view. I haven't really seen that too much from the "pro-Israel" side

My point of view is very simple: I believe that Israel has the legitimacy and the right to exist as a "Jewish State" because this is the raison d'être of this country. However, this does not mean that I don't take into consideration the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people and am thus very much in favor of establishing a Palestinian State. Even though this was not the case 20 years ago, today a mojority of Israelis are sharing this same opinion. I want to believe - and I do believe - that a majority, or in any case, a lrge portion, of the Palestinians would like to see such a solution materialize as soon as possible. The big problem is that as of today, I have not seen a single Palestinian politician defending this solution. Because if this was the envisioned solution, no one would continue to delegitimatize Israel and call for the immigration inside pre-1967 Israeli territory of millions of Palestian "refugees". If these Palestinians want to live in a Palestinian State, so be it. But the call to settle those people inside pre-1967 Israeli territory is a call to abolish Israel and transforming it into Palestine.

In short: yes to Palestinian statehood but not as a move to destroy Israel and replace it with a Palestine "from the river to the sea".

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 229): No, sure. And what are Israelis and Zionists? I am sure that you will find a lot of differences between a religion and a political movement.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 229): and yes i hate Zionism

You hate Zionism. Thank you for putting it so clearly.

But maybe one day you'll understand that "hate" is bad.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 232): Do you have any guarantees that the actual or future governments will not kick those non Jews out of Israel, it's not like this did not happen before.

Israel is a democratic country and the chances of such a development are very low if not non-existent. The reverse question however shall not even be asked, since one has just to read the Hamas charta or the PLO plans to know the answer.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 241): But in the Israeli Declaration of Independence there was no mention of a Jewish state (correct me if i am wrong please).

Wrong, indeed. Maybe you should read again some basic historical events surrounding the establishement of the State of Israel.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 241): zrs70, lets be very clear here, i never attacked or criticised the Jewish religion, i was raised to respect all other religion and belief. I raised my chidren with the same.

But did you raise your children with the hatred of Zionism? Those who are doing so are actually making peace impossible also in the next generation(s). This is very sad and very frightening. I hope you have not acted like this and have managed NOT to transmit your "hate" (your word) of Zionism to your children.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): This was not the issue.

It was absolutely the issue.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): It is fully part of the thread.

No it is not. Completely different issue !

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): And again: I let you explain to these families that they live in a country which does "not adhere" to human rights and that therefore they should stop complaining about what happened

Then open another thread on said "NEW" topic !

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 226): A Jewish State "for Jews only"? This is your personal interpretation.

And many others here have the "same" interpretation too... Funny that !

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247): In case you're not aware, Australia has no "special relation" with Israel at all.

Rubbish...... Australia unfortunately follows the Good o'l U.S of A. when it comes to anything to do with Israel.... blindly !

http://www.dfat.gov.au/geo/israel/israel_country_brief.html

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247): And what did "OBL cite as a reason for" killing 200 Spanish commuters? In case you're not aware, Spain has no "special relation" with Israel at all.

Again ..... Utter rubbish. Spain has a long history supporting Israel as well as an enormous Jewish population within the boarders of Spain !

"The foreign minister stressed Spain’s commitment to Israel “as the embodiment of the project to create a homeland for the Jewish people.” She recounted how since Israel’s inception, it has suffered through many wars and terrorism against its people, adding that Israel’s security is a top priority for Spain."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...h-homeland-for-first-time-1.386587

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247): It is truly sad to see how easily many people can become manipulated by the ongoing anti-Israeli propaganda going on everywehere and all the time.

And it can equally be said, that it is "sad"to see how many people a blinded by Israeli propaganda... YOU included, hook line and sinker !

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247): However, this does not mean that I don't take into consideration the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people and am thus very much in favor of establishing a Palestinian State

Where have you ever mention the "welfare" and the "rights" of the Palestinian people in they thread ?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 248): Again ..... Utter rubbish. Spain has a long history supporting Israel as well as an enormous Jewish population within the boarders of Spain !

an ENORMOUS Jewish population........ ha ha, if your words were not filled with an obsessional hatred of Israel, one could consider you to be amuzing.

Interestingly, it seems to be sufficient for a country to have diplomatic relations with Israel or to host a Jewish population to put said country's citizens in danger of death. Very bright, equilibrated and optimistic vision of the world and of life.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 248): "The foreign minister stressed Spain’s commitment to Israel “as the embodiment of the project to create a homeland for the Jewish people.” She recounted how since Israel’s inception, it has suffered through many wars and terrorism against its people, adding that Israel’s security is a top priority for Spain."

What is wrong in this sentence? It is very nice   I wonder who said this and when, but you should not get too much upset: these are only empty words...

But I see your point, and maybe DeltaMD90 will share your opinion: this sentence has (or would have...) offended Mr OBL so profoundly that he decided to kill hundreds of innocent Spanish civilians

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 248): Where have you ever mention the "welfare" and the "rights" of the Palestinian people in they thread ?

I am mentioning these issues here as DeltaMD90 has asked a few questions.


But since you asked a question and got an answer, now it's my turn:

tell us.... where do YOU ever mention the "welfare" and the "rights" of the Israeli people?


If you cite me, you could at least have cited a little bit more of my message. Here it is again, although I know that you don't give a shit about it. As long as I will not advocate the dismantlement of the State of Israel you will call me an "extremist"...

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247): My point of view is very simple: I believe that Israel has the legitimacy and the right to exist as a "Jewish State" because this is the raison d'être of this country. However, this does not mean that I don't take into consideration the legitimate rights of the Palestinian people and am thus very much in favor of establishing a Palestinian State. Even though this was not the case 20 years ago, today a mojority of Israelis are sharing this same opinion. I want to believe - and I do believe - that a majority, or in any case, a lrge portion, of the Palestinians would like to see such a solution materialize as soon as possible. The big problem is that as of today, I have not seen a single Palestinian politician defending this solution. Because if this was the envisioned solution, no one would continue to delegitimatize Israel and call for the immigration inside pre-1967 Israeli territory of millions of Palestian "refugees". If these Palestinians want to live in a Palestinian State, so be it. But the call to settle those people inside pre-1967 Israeli territory is a call to abolish Israel and transforming it into Palestine. In short: yes to Palestinian statehood but not as a move to destroy Israel and replace it with a Palestine "from the river to the sea".