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TheCommodore
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:22 am

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 249):
tell us.... where do YOU ever mention the "welfare" and the "rights" of the Israeli people?

I have mentioned, Ad nauseam, the continued (blind) support, Israel receives from various quarters in the world, which guarantees the "rights" and "welfare" of its people, over those of the Palestinians...

If you haven t got that message yet, then I don't know why you are even bothering to partake in the conversation then !



Quoting todareisinger (Reply 249):
But I see your point,

Good...         

And this is NOT an arrow, its a tick of approval !
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todaReisinger
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:45 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 250):
Quoting todareisinger (Reply 249):tell us.... where do YOU ever mention the "welfare" and the "rights" of the Israeli people?

I have mentioned, Ad nauseam, the continued (blind) support, Israel receives from various quarters in the world, which guarantees the "rights" and "welfare" of its people, over those of the Palestinians...

If you haven t got that message yet, then I don't know why you are even bothering to partake in the conversation then !

No. The question was not about international or blind support of Israel. The question was about YOU mentioning the rights of the Israeli people, including the right to exist and to live in peace in secured borders.


You have not mentioned these notions because you are fundamentally against these. You do not recognize the legitimacy of the State of Israel and you do not recognize the right of the Israeli people to live in Israel.

And this is the reason why this "discussion" does not advance anywhere, whatever any poster might write.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:16 am

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 251):
The question was not about international or blind support of Israel.

You might not like it, In fact I can't tell you don't, but I reckon it is.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 251):
And this is the reason why this "discussion" does not advance anywhere, whatever any poster might write.

That Sir, is entirely your interpretation, not mine or others for that matter !
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:38 am

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247):
And what did "OBL cite as a reason for" killing more than 200 Australian tourists in Bali? In case you're not aware, Australia has no "special relation" with Israel at all.

And what did "OBL cite as a reason for" killing 200 Spanish commuters? In case you're not aware, Spain has no "special relation" with Israel at all.

I'm sorry, I missed the part in my post where I said every terrorist attack has something to do with Israel.   I never said that.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247):
Do you want anyone to believe that OBL and other murderous Islamic terrorists are so sensitive that they are suffering by seeing "how poorly Israel can treat the Palestinians" ? Truly, this is not serious.

Wow, are you trying to say that how Israel treats Palestine has nothing to do with *some* Islamic terrorism? (Again, some, not every attack like you thought I said before for some reason)

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247):
It is truly sad to see how easily many people can become manipulated by the ongoing anti-Israeli propaganda going on everywehere and all the time.

How is the 9/11 Commission Report anti-Israel propaganda? Did you read the quotations in my post? Israel and US support for Israel was cited more than a couple times. Don't conflate that with meaning that every bad thing a Muslim does is 100% Israel's fault

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247):
How do you know I (or anyone else) "unilaterally supports everything Israel does" ?

Do you not see how some react to the tiniest criticism of an Israeli policy? Yeah, it looks an awful lot like never admitting one's side to be wrong, ever

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247):
It is directly and exclusively about Israel's legitimacy and Israel's right to exist.

No, these threads aren't just about Israel's right to exist. They are about a plethora of issues. I'm completely for Israel existing. I probably would have been against it in 1948 but it's not 1948 it's 2014... **** happened in the past and it would be disastrous to reset everything
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:42 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 242):
Every time one of these threads start up, its the same old cast of characters. How bout we get a real Israeli and Palestinian in here to give us the real facts on the ground.

Yes, it's true. They have seen this dead horse beaten too many times so now they can't be bothered. I can think of one Palestinian Arab (by birth) that doesn't wish to step in this pasture and I don't blame him. The Israeli's feel the same way. No one is going to change their mind and there is the one who is always asking for education and yet refuses to absorb it when he is offered it. It's interesting for a while and then it's just more of the same.   

And then there is the propaganda from the "insignificant".  
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:05 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 229):
i hate Zionism

SOBHI, I think Zionism, even as a code word, is the litmus test with respect to anti-Semitism throughout the world, even in the US. The facile rhetorical linkage of Zionism with imperialism and racism is little more than an admission that Jews are uniquely NOT entitled to be like everyone else and live as citizens as part of a majority in a nation, for better or worse.

Zionism, as mirrored in the State of Israel, has proven the point that Jews are in fact just human.
Israel has displayed a full range of human achievement and weakness and of decency and its absence common to all the worlds nations.

Comparatively speaking, one can make the case that Israel has behaved better, given it's circumstances.
The anti-Zionist, like the anti-Semite a century ago, does not want to allow the Jew the privilege of normalcy.

So when I hear you use the word "hate" it makes me wonder how "open" you really are to another way of viewing Zionism.
"Hate" is the biggest problem in the world today as it is. The root of much evil.
The use of the word does not become you.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 251):
And this is the reason why this "discussion" does not advance anywhere, whatever any poster might write.

Don't worry about it!
That's because he/she/it is "insignificant".  
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:18 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 254):
Yes, it's true.

And you are always there too !  
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 254):
And then there is the propaganda from the "insignificant".

Oh... you wish it were "propaganda". But, you know what they say.... The truth hurts!

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 255):
That's because he/she/it is "insignificant".

Dream on my friend........  
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:26 pm

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247):
But maybe one day you'll understand that "hate" is bad.
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 255):
So when I hear you use the word "hate" it makes me wonder how "open" you really are to another way of viewing Zionism.

Hate is a human feeling exactly like love, you can not separate both, if you don't hate you will never know the true meaning of love.
A lot of things i hate like nagging people, communism, the color brown, stupidity, small children in pain or suffering and on top of the list using religion for political gains, being Islam, Christian or Jewish. Religion is a matter between God and people it has nothing to do with politics.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247):
But did you raise your children with the hatred of Zionism?

Don't need to, just them watching the suffering of Palestinian children is enough.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247):
Those who are doing so are actually making peace impossible also in the next generation(s).

I think you are looking at the wrong side who's making peace impossible.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247):
I hope you have not acted like this and have managed NOT to transmit your "hate" (your word) of Zionism to your children.
See above
Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247):
This is very sad

You are worried about how i raised my children but at the same time don't give any consideration about the suffering of thousands of Palestinian children kicked out of there land and houses. That's sad.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247):
Israel is a democratic country

Best joke today. A democracy should apply to all the population of a country not just part of them.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
edka
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:31 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 257):
Best joke today. A democracy should apply to all the population of a country not just part of them

SOBHI I have to say I am very surprised by your comment... I don't know you, but judging by your posts, I always considered you as an a moderate and intellectual.
However, I think you should clarify what exactly you mean here, because your comment does not make any sense??

Israel is 100% democracy. Every single Israeli citizen can vote, irrespective of their religion. That's a fact, not a joke and you are wrong.

However, I suspect that you refer to Palestinians in your comment? Now, that would also be wrong, because they are NOT citizens of Israel and SHOULD NOT be able to vote...
Don't they after all seek establishment of their own State of Palestine??

I have noticed several people in this discussion made similar references, and I just don't understand why is it so difficult for people to not consider Palestinians as part of Israeli society??
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:51 pm

Quoting EDKA (Reply 258):
However, I think you should clarify what exactly you mean here, because your comment does not make any sense??

Easy, how many Israeli Arabs lives in Israel, what's there percentage of the population of Israel, and how many represent them in the Knesset?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:18 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 257):
Don't need to, just them watching the suffering of Palestinian children is enough.

Don't you think you should teach them not to hate but rather disagree strongly in a civil matter? I'm glad you don't teach them to hate but I don't think letting them get to the point of hatred on their own is much better
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:59 am

Quoting EDKA (Reply 258):

I suspect one of the reasons that it is difficult to consider Palestinians as not part of Israeli society is because Palestinians continue to be under Israeli control. Does the "State of Palestine" have control over secure borders, without an Israeli presence? Can Palestinians freely move between the West Bank and Gaza without travelling through a State other than Israel? Does the State of Palestine control taxes or are these still under Israeli control?

If the answers to these questions is yes, then Palestinians can be seen as not part of Israeli society. If the answer is no, then they are part of that society but enjoy a status less than that of citizen.

But is the claim that all citizens are treated equally true? If an Israeli Jew marries a Jew from New York and a US citizen, can they both live without restriction in Israel? Does the same apply to an Israeli Arab who marries an Arab from Gaza or Ramallah, or even from New York who also happens to be a US citizen? Can they both live without restriction in Israel? If the answer is yes, then all citizens are indeed treated equally. If the answer is no, then it seems that some are more equal than others.

Now I am aware that there are countries where holders of Israeli passports may not even enter, let alone settle, and where public profession of judaism is an offence. Their citizen requirements are often even more exclusive, yet at least those countries generally do not pretend to be democracies.
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SOBHI51
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:46 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 260):
Don't you think you should teach them not to hate but rather disagree strongly in a civil matter? I'm glad you don't teach them to hate but I don't think letting them get to the point of hatred on their own is much better


Can you teach somebody to love? Same goes with Hate, it's a feeling, you can not control or direct.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:54 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 262):
Can you teach somebody to love? Same goes with Hate, it's a feeling, you can not control or direct.

Love and hate are broad words, we may be defining them differently. No, you cannot change the deepest of feelings in someone but you can teach people (as best as you can) how to act out on them. I'd rather see anger towards Israel in the form of a protest, speeches, events, appeals to the international community, etc rather than rockets, suicide bombs, and beheadings
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:25 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 263):
I'd rather see anger towards Israel in the form of a protest, speeches, events, appeals to the international community, etc

Can not agree more.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 263):
rather than rockets, suicide bombs, and beheadings

Never called for such actions and will never do. Still i will give the right to any side to defend themselves without targeting civilians.

My children specially my daughter were strongly shocked and angered by
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCC6AvliOYw

How can i explain that to them?

[Edited 2014-06-04 21:42:47]
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ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:33 am

Quoting EDKA (Reply 258):
I have noticed several people in this discussion made similar references, and I just don't understand why is it so difficult for people to not consider Palestinians as part of Israeli society??

Because it does not fit with their political agenda they have turned blind eyes to the truth. Not surprising.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 264):
How can i explain that to them?

Just because they say it is the truth does not make it so. It makes it suspect. Just because they say it is not propaganda doesn't make it so. It makes it suspect. Just because they say it has "credibility" as it was filmed by a French "news crew" does not give it credibility. It makes it suspect.

I find it interesting that whomever made this film is standing right there in the middle of the street filming the supposed shooting and the "news crew" doesn't get shot at.  
Also, there is no sign of blood or injury to the supposed "victims".

I think this was a staged piece of propaganda. There are untold hundreds of pieces of propaganda printed or filmed every week. The idea is if you flood the population with it eventually people begin to believe it. Sometimes it works!  
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zkojq
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:29 pm

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 247):
And what did "OBL cite as a reason for" killing 200 Spanish commuters? In case you're not aware, Spain has no "special relation" with Israel at all.

You've got your facts wrong.

Quote:
While the bombers may have been inspired by Bin Laden, a two-year investigation into the attacks has found no evidence that al-Qa'ida helped plan, finance or carry out the bombings, or even knew about them in advance.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...d-by-bin-laden-address-423266.html

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 255):
Zionism, as mirrored in the State of Israel, has proven the point that Jews are in fact just human.

Sorry, but Jews were humans from the beginning, far before zionism.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 255):
The anti-Zionist, like the anti-Semite a century ago, does not want to allow the Jew the privilege of normalcy.

No. Anti Zionism means that someone doesn't support a group of foreigners coming together to colonize someone else's country. The difficulty comes when various trouble makers try and equate antizionism with anti antisemitism.

Zionism (or antizionism) is a political ideology (though some on both sides seem to try and make it a religious ideology).

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 267):
North Koreans vote.

Indeed, and its technically the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea.

[Edited 2014-06-05 08:11:03]
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:36 pm

Quoting EDKA (Reply 258):
Israel is 100% democracy. Every single Israeli citizen can vote, irrespective of their religion. That's a fact, not a joke and you are wrong.

North Koreans vote. Chinese vote. Cubans vote. Syrians vote. Belorussians vote. That enough says those are democracies.
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zrs70
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:39 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 266):
No. Anti Zionism means that someone doesn't support a group of foreigners coming together to colonize someone else's country. The difficulty comes when various trouble makers try and equate antizionism with anti antisemitism.


What country was there before Israel?


What's the history of New Zealand by the way?

[Edited 2014-06-05 08:39:52]
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PhilBy
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:12 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 268):
What country was there before Israel?

That depends which year you wish to base your claim on. There have been quite a number through history.
 
zrs70
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:27 pm

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 269):


That depends which year you wish to base your claim on. There have been quite a number through history.


Not really, and I'll answer my question. There was never a country there (in modern times). Ottoman, British, yes. Palestian? No.
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Alfons
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:45 pm

you guys are still here? Not getting tired of yourself a bit?
 
edka
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:58 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 259):
Easy, how many Israeli Arabs lives in Israel, what's there percentage of the population of Israel, and how many represent them in the Knesset?

There are more Arab members in Knesset than there are Muslim MP's in the UK (approx 10% vs 1%). Arabs make up approx 20% of Israeli population, while Muslims approx 5% in the UK. According to your logic, UK is not a democracy?

What about US? Black, Hispanic, Asian seats in Congress vs their US population? Is US not a democracy either??

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 267):
North Koreans vote. Chinese vote. Cubans vote. Syrians vote. Belorussians vote. That enough says those are democracies.
Quoting zkojq (Reply 266):
Indeed, and its technically the Democratic People%u2019s Republic of Korea.

Look i have no problem if you want to openly display you ignorance...However, if you are genuinely comparing Israeli democracy to any of these countries, you really need to get back to school.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 266):
coming together to colonize someone else's country

Whose country was it exactly??

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 269):
That depends which year you wish to base your claim on. There have been quite a number through history.

Well, there has NEVER been one called Palestine?
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:09 pm

Quoting EDKA (Reply 272):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 267):
North Koreans vote. Chinese vote. Cubans vote. Syrians vote. Belorussians vote. That enough says those are democracies.
Quoting zkojq (Reply 266):
Indeed, and its technically the Democratic People%u2019s Republic of Korea.

Look i have no problem if you want to openly display you ignorance...However, if you are genuinely comparing Israeli democracy to any of these countries, you really need to get back to school.

According to your definition of democracy:

Quoting EDKA (Reply 258):
Israel is 100% democracy. Every single Israeli citizen can vote, irrespective of their religion.

these places count as democracy.

Oh...wait. In these countries, fake elections are held and throw false results which always ends up with one person/party dominating without any other significant opposition.

It's not being ignorant. It's showing you how wrong you are about what you define as democracy. If by democracy you mean where people vote, then only absolute monarchies don't count. If by democracy you mean where people have rights for everything no matter who's in power (which is what you were probably referring to), then that's not a democracy: that's a constitutional republic, where the rights of ALL are enshrined in a document that guides the country.
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edka
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:34 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 273):
Oh...wait. In these countries, fake elections are held and throw false results which always ends up with one person/party dominating without any other significant opposition.

Two things:

First - there is nothing fake about elections in Israel, plus you do not have one party dominating "without significant opposition" (actually, the Left used to be much stronger, but that's besides the point)..

Second -

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 273):
According to your definition of democracy:

Thats is not my definition of democracy, its just one of many many things that occur in democratic Israel...
Go back to read 258 and 259 if you need to understand better where my comment came from.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:04 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 270):
Not really, and I'll answer my question. There was never a country there (in modern times). Ottoman, British, yes. Palestian? No.

What group of people were living there?

Quoting Alfons (Reply 271):
you guys are still here?

Yeah, and apparently you are too  
Quoting Alfons (Reply 271):
Not getting tired of yourself a bit?

What, should we give up posting because you decided to?
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:12 pm

Quoting Alfons (Reply 271):
you guys are still here? Not getting tired of yourself a bit?

Yes and no, and unless you have something to add to our discussion can you please stop interrupting. Thank you
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
zrs70
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:22 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 275):
What group of people were living there?

Fair question... And I'll respond. But I was replying to statement that there was a country there before Israel. There was no country.

What group of people lived there? Mostly Arab, but without a defining border. Palestine was considered a land area (like "the Alps.")
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:30 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 277):

Oh... I don't want to muddle up the debate but I do kind of think arguing which "country" was there before is kinda off the mark. One, it ignores lines drawn by occupiers and two, defining countries and borders was a lot fuzzier back in the day.

At the end of the day, I would reject any historical claim any group has to some land--deal with the people living there. I don't think it matters if "God gave the land of Israel to the Jews" in the Torah, if it wasn't Jewish land/populated by Jews in 1948, I don't think it should have been given to them. Speaking in 2014 is a different matter, most of the people involved are dead and gone and undoing that was be catastrophic and unfair so we need to make the best of the situation
 
zrs70
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 278):
if it wasn't Jewish land/populated by Jews in 1948, I don't think it should have been given to them.

I agree about not using biblical promises to justify modern secular decisions.

That said, there has always been a Jewish population in the area. At times it was a small percent. And at times it was much larger. No question it steadily grew as Independence came closer.

In the 16th century, the Jewish population was 5,000 under 2%. By 1940, it was closer to 500,000 or 30%. In 1948, it was about 700,000 or 80%.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/..._Culture/israel_palestine_pop.html

One should compare this to the Jewish population in surrounding countries. In 1948, the Jewish population in Egypt was 75,000. Today it's 100.

In Lebanon it was 20,000. Today, less than 100.

In Iraq, it was 150,000. Today less than 10.

In Libia it was 38,000. Today, 0.

Algeria it was 148,000. Today, less than 75.

Shall I go on?

Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...urce/anti-semitism/arabjewtoc.html
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:23 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 279):
population in the area.

What area, exactly? I did fail to mention that they were there so sorry about that much
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:08 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 266):
Sorry, but Jews were humans from the beginning, far before zionism.

Not surprisingly, you miss the point entirely.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 280):
What area, exactly?

Since about 2000BCE the Hebrews used a couple of different "trading" routes. Gum arabic came from Sheba, and copper was traded for tin originating east of Mesopotamia. Tin and oil moved along those trade routes. Cedarwood from the Lebanon. Canaan was also an important link on the two major trade routes through the region. The Way of the Sea and The Way of the Philistines passed along the coastal plain from Egypt linking Rafah and Gaza to Sur where the route divided, with roads radiating north to Anatolia and Damascus. The Kings Highway led south from Damascus through the hills east of the Sea of Galilee and the Dead Sea. The road forked at one point----a branch leading west along the Way of Arabah and The Way of Shur to Beth lahel roi and Egypt. The other branch led south through Punon, Petra and Eilat on the Gulf of Aqaba. So Africa, southern Arabia and Asia were linked via Canaan. The Hebrews could be found living all along these trading routes.

The Canaanite cultural and urban region covered the Negev and Hills of Judea north to Giscala, Bethsaida, and Ashtaroth. Canaan comprised three area at that time ----the long coastal plain stretching into (the modern) Lebanon which was eventually known as Phoenicia, Aram, the site of the Aramean city-states. spreading from the Horan south of Damascus to the last of the Hittite towns near the Euphrates and Mount Lebanon to the west.

The Hebrew patriarchs wandered all these routes for generations avoiding violence and fighting when they had to. Some wandered as far as Egypt and were forced into slavery to build the great cities of Pithom and Raamses.
Following the Exodus (likely reign of Rameses II) the Hebrews fought in Canaan in the low hill country, known as Sephelah and the hills of Judea and Samaria which became the region constituting the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. The ancient land of Judah was a very large area. Because of the concentration of the tribe in this area the name became to be known as Jews. Most important was the area of Judea and Samaria. So your answer is this was the ancient homeland of the Jewish people and their ancestors who have constantly lived in this area for over 3500 years.
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zippyjet
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:02 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 13):

  

Keeping emotion aside. All one has to do is look at history and see how our people were persona non grotta (Spelling?) at the least or at it's worst exterminated like rats and cockroaches. At least we have the State of Israel. Sadly history repeats itself and another Hitler could rise and continue his "final solution." I'll leave it at that.
I'm Zippyjet & I approve this message!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Fri Jun 06, 2014 2:33 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 281):

Interesting histroy but I was mainly interested what specific areas the Jews occupied in 1948. Was it the 1948 border Israel?
 
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zkojq
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:31 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 268):
What country was there before Israel?

British Palestine, Ottoman Palestine (Damascus Eyalet), Byzantine Empire. How far do we want to go back? Crusades?

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 268):
What's the history of New Zealand by the way?

The history of New Zealand includes a great bit over the last hundred years where the central government has gone to great lengths to right past wrongs. The Waitangi Tribunal actively investigates violations of the treaty and recommends actions to remedy them. Billions has been pumped into the various iwi. They have been given land (a recent settlement was 176,000 hectares worth), money, massive fishing quotas, special roles that assist administrating government land (rivers, national parks etc) that were culturally significant to them. Most importantly IMO they have been given apologies. Additionally, there are special Maori seats in parliament (which has two maori parties), thousands of special scholarships for maori students, special health and education programs for them too.

tl;dr New Zealand has been giving land back to those who were wronged and doing what it can to make things right. Meanwhile Israel is sadly still colonizing land by building settlements, forcibly demolishing arab housing, destroying their crops/farms (http://bit.ly/1uyPKwR) and firing shells at Bedouins.

P.S. I'm still waiting for the source, as mentioned in my previous two posts.

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 269):
There have been quite a number through history.

Indeed.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 272):
Whose country was it exactly??

The Palestinians. Many of whom were Palestinian Jews.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 277):
Palestine was considered a land area (like "the Alps.")

Palestine had its own currency and government.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 279):
In 1948, it was about 700,000 or 80%.

And yet, despite most of the land being under arab ownership (http://bit.ly/1kMGe6x), the whole of British Palestine was encompassed in the Israeli declaration of independence.

Its amazing how the numbers change when Palestinians flee due to attacks by Israeli terrorist groups and then have the border gates locked behind them, as well as a large influx of migrants.
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damirc
Posts: 727
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:17 am

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 279):
In the 16th century, the Jewish population was 5,000 under 2%. By 1940, it was closer to 500,000 or 30%. In 1948, it was about 700,000 or 80%.

So:
- in 1940 it was 500,000 as 30% which makes the whole population 1.67 million.
- in 1948 it was 700,000 as 80% which makes the whole population 875,000.

So the 800,000 missing people were the ones that weren't expelled?  

I have this data:

1880: 300,000 Palestinians (94%), 24,000 Jews (6%)
1917: 504,000 Palestinians (90%), 56,000 Jews (10%)
1931: 850,000 Palestinians (83%), 174,096 Jews (17%)
1947: 1,300,000 Palestinians (67%), 640,298 Jews (33%)


Land ownership in 1945:

http://domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg

Still, all the data won't help us find the solution ^^

D.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:22 am

Quoting damirc (Reply 285):
http://domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg

Wait, this map must be wrong since it mentions Palestine which never existed!  

(sarcasm)
 
damirc
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:30 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 286):
Wait, this map must be wrong since it mentions Palestine which never existed!

Generally just ignore when the usual suspects say that. I grew tired of disproving them on that o 

D.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:35 am

Quoting damirc (Reply 287):
Generally just ignore when the usual suspects say that. I grew tired of disproving them on that o 

To err is human. To be so adamant about something and so blatantly wrong is sad. Some people just don't care about the truth it seems  
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:21 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 288):
Some people just don't care about the truth it seems  

It's not they don't care but they don't want to believe and understand that they were wrong 
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:16 am

I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:31 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 290):
Meanwhile in Boston Mass

Oh yes. The Pro-Palestinian propaganda machine is still cranking along. Thank heavens Pamela Geller is working to expose the lies:

http://pamelageller.com/2014/06/anti...y-mbta-strikes-afdi-responds.html/
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TheCommodore
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:40 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 290):
Meanwhile in Boston Mass

Its a good way of getting the message across, in plain and simple facts.

It should get the attention of many Americans !

You can see the rest of the campaign here.

http://www.adsagainstapartheid.com/campaigns/
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:49 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 292):
It should get the attention of many Americans !

Oh it has gotten attention all right. Thank heavens for the bravery of Pamela Geller who is getting the truth out there!
Here is one of the latest campaigns she has brought to the publics attention:

http://pamelageller.com/2014/06/beli...washes-quranic-anti-semitism.html/
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:21 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 293):
Oh it has gotten attention all right.

Well, this will get a bit more attention then wont it...Channel news asia.

News from yesterday....

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...s-israel-an-apartheid/1142442.html

And this from your very own secretary of State Mr Kerry

"US Secretary of State John Kerry recently came under fire for saying in a closed-door meeting that if a Middle East peace agreement was not achieved, Israel risked becoming an apartheid state."
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
edka
Posts: 371
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:57 am

Quoting zkojq (Reply 284):
British Palestine, Ottoman Palestine (Damascus Eyalet), Byzantine Empire. How far do we want to go back? Crusades?

You can go back as long as you want...None of the above were Countries, and most certainly not independent....

Quoting zkojq (Reply 284):
The Palestinians. Many of whom were Palestinian Jews.
Quoting zkojq (Reply 284):
Palestine had its own currency and government.

Maybe you should read little bit more about the history of Palestinian Currency or Governement (i assume you are refering to Arab Higher Committee? Not much of a government really...)


Until 1918, the region known as Palestine was an integral part of the Ottoman Empire and therefore used its currency, the Ottoman lira. Following the institution of the British Mandate for Palestine, the Egyptian pound also circulated alongside the Ottoman lira until 1927. This created an unsatisfactory situation which required a currency reform. The Palestine pound was introduced, equal in value to the Pound sterling. The Palestine pound was also declared a legal tender in the Transjordan Emirate, which was technically a part of the British Mandate, though having an autonomous local administration. The body which governed the issue of the currency was the Palestine Currency Board, which was subject to the British Colonial Office. The Currency Board was dissolved in May 1948, as the British Mandate ended. The area in which the Palestine pound circulated was divided into several political entities: the State of Israel, the Hashemite Kingdom of Transjordan, the Jordanian-occupied West Bank and the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_pound

Arab Higher Committee, the central political organ of the Arab community of Mandatory Palestine. It was established on 25 April 1936 and sidestepped by the All-Palestine Government in 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Higher_Committee

You know, all the info it out there for anyone who really wants to understand the route of this conflict and how we all got to where we are today. No excuse for not knowing really...
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:39 am

Israel has a new President. The role may seem mainly ceremonial, with real power being in the hands of the Prime Minister, but it is important all the same.

Reuven Rivlin is generally regarded as being a hardliner. He is opposed to any separate Palestinian State and has advocated that Israel should annex and maintain sovereignty over the lands it occupies. From this some might conclude that he is a racist. But would be they be right?

In the past, Rivlin has opposed a bill that would give preference to Israeli army veterans in the hiring of government employees. He argued that this would discriminate against Israeli Arabs as most do not serve in the IDF. He also opposed a bill that would have required Israel’s Arabs to do national service alongside their Jewish countrymen. Rivlin opposes a requirement that Arabs should be forced to take an oath of loyalty to Israel as a Jewish State. He has long advocated Jewish-Arab co-operation. How this squares with his support for continued "settlement" is unclear.

Rivlin has stated that he favours a "special union" with Palestinians being granted Israeli citizenship, but voting for their own parliament and largely governing their own affairs, in what sounds like a form of confederation. Yet how would this result in a national government that was all-inclusive? Would the Government be drawn from members of both parliaments, some Arab, some Jewish? If there was a conflict between the views of one parliament and the other, which would prevail?

Of course his personal views as President are not those of the Government and it is the latter who will set the course for the future.
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
TheCommodore
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Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:38 am

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 296):
Israel has a new President.

Yes, I read this yesterday, but was somewhat dismayed at the mention of "hardliner" and "opposed to any separate Palestinian state"

Though I commend him on his generous feelings towards miniroty groups and the like.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 296):
Of course his personal views as President are not those of the Government and it is the latter who will set the course for the future.

Unfortunately you are right, because, at the end of the day, it matters not what Mr Rivlin believes in, or says or does, what matters is what the Government says or does, and up until now, that hasn't been much good for the Arabs of Israel, or the Palestinians.  

[Edited 2014-06-11 22:43:12]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:43 am

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 296):
If there was a conflict between the views of one parliament and the other,

   The use of the word "if" is funny when discussing "conflict" within the government! It is more a matter of "the" "conflicts" between the views of one parliment and the other!

Yeah, I think Rivlin will continue to champion the cause of the Arab minorities and his followers will continue to do the same as well. Rivlin has his political allies and is not without political clout. So I think there will be an impact on parliament.

Israel's government is in a unique position as far as world governments go. Therefore it's decision making is unique as well. The Jewish people learned long ago that if we depend on "what the world thinks" we would all be dead. So it is interesting to see things play-out. The Government will ultimately do what they feel is best for Israel----period-----and that will, of course, go for all it's citizens Arab, Christian and Jewish----and lately Asian faiths.
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