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Kiwirob
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Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon May 05, 2014 4:40 pm

Can't say we didn't see this coming! Here's hoping that sensible folk in Israel will protest the crap out of this. On the plus side if this did ever come to pass I'm pretty sure it would be the nail in Israel's coffin, not sensible nation could or should support the return of officially sanction apartheid.

Quote:
Netanyahu pushes to define Israel as nation state of Jewish people only

Binyamin Netanyahu will push ahead with a rare change to Israel's basic laws – which amount to the country's constitution – to insist Israel is "the nation state of one people only – the Jewish people – and of no other people".

At Sunday's weekly cabinet meeting, Netanyahu said the civil rights of minorities, including Arabs, would be guaranteed, and the move was vital at a time when aspects of Israel's legitimacy were "under a constant and increasing assault from abroad and at home".

Netanyahu proposed the change last week during a visit to Tel Aviv's Independence Hall, attracting fierce criticism from political rivals and support from some of his allies. The move follows a Palestinian refusal in peace talks to recognise the status that Netanyahu described.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...l-jewish-state?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

This man is a thorn in the side of the peace process.

[Edited 2014-05-05 09:44:00]
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon May 05, 2014 4:52 pm

Well I know how this thread will go. I'll disagree with the move (while being for Israeli statehood, security, etc) and be called antisemitic by the usual suspects.

Really, why do they need to be a Jewish state? I usually hear two arguments but there may be more--national identity. Great, can't do that any other way that won't needlessly halt the peace process? The other reason--"but but, there are Muslim states!" Yes, just because they do it means Israel should, right? I'd argue they should simply be a state like the rest of the West instead of the Muslim states which they have such trouble with and dislike

While I know the Palestinian side is VERY FAR from perfect and I view Israel as the most Western country in the region, I do think they have a ways to go in some areas and needlessly kick the hornets nest for no reason. I view them as the older son in the region... sometimes you have be harder on the older/more mature son because they should know better not to do such petty things. Let there be Muslim states and don't be a Jewish state... double standard, whatever, let there be peace. Israeli actions often baffle me because they often do such silly things that only drag out this bloody conflict even further.

Let the flame-fest begin
 
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Revelation
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon May 05, 2014 5:31 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Israeli actions often baffle me because they often do such silly things that only drag out this bloody conflict even further.

It's not baffling: the current status allows the Israel government to achieve many of their goals like settling the West Bank without having to give up anything in return. Also, it's pretty clear that the Palestinian leaders won't benefit from peace either because then they will have to deal with the crushing problems they have without having someone else to blame. Thus we have decades of peace talks with no end in sight.

The funny thing for me is when staying in Tel Aviv it didn't really feel like a Jewish state, even though I stayed at a Jewish school. The minute I left the campus there were just as many Muslims around as Jews, and the whole area went quiet on the Muslim sabbath. Israel hates to admit it, but Israel would cease to function if the Muslims were expelled.
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Mir
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon May 05, 2014 5:58 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Really, why do they need to be a Jewish state?

There's no reason they can't be a Jewish state if they do it properly. The devil is in the details, as it usually is in these sorts of things. If Israel wants to be a state founded on Jewish principles and with a strong Jewish culture but where citizens who aren't Jewish (which most likely means Muslim) can live peacefully with all the rights that a Jewish person would have, that's reasonable enough. But if Israel wants to create a system where non-Jews are second-class citizens, or even create the possibility for such a system, they can expect a lot of pushback on it, and rightly so. Israel is facing a demographic trend that, if it continues, will eventually lead to Jews being a minority in the country, and the idea of a state belonging only to a minority hasn't gone very well throughout history.

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Maverick623
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon May 05, 2014 7:46 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
If Israel wants to be a state founded on Jewish principles

That's not what Netanyahu is trying to accomplish. "the nation state of one people only - the Jewish people" is pretty clear terminology.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
But if Israel wants to create a system where non-Jews are second-class citizens

That's what is trying to be accomplished. You can't say a country is going to be for "one people only", and then say that others' rights are "guaranteed".

It's a worse oxymoron than "separate but equal".
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Kiwirob
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon May 05, 2014 7:59 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):

There's no reason they can't be a Jewish state if they do it properly.

It's a bit difficult when 20% of the population are muslim.
 
Mir
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon May 05, 2014 8:57 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):
It's a bit difficult when 20% of the population are muslim.

England has an official state religion, and I don't see many complaining about the society not being inclusive and tolerant of those who don't adhere to the values of the Anglican church. If I'm not mistaken, the same is true of Norway. There's no reason that Israel couldn't be similar if they wanted to. I'm not convinced, however, that the current government wants to.

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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon May 05, 2014 9:06 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
England has an official state religion, and I don't see many complaining about the society not being inclusive and tolerant of those who don't adhere to the values of the Anglican church. If I'm not mistaken, the same is true of Norway. There's no reason that Israel couldn't be similar if they wanted to. I'm not convinced, however, that the current government wants to.

1: I don't see that as apples to apples, England isn't a Anglican state of Anglicans only (or however the Israeli proposal is worded)

but 2, and more importantly: England's religious stance isn't holding up arguably the most important peace process in the entire world.

I sympathize with Israel on a lot of things but this Jewish state BS I have absolutely 0 sympathy for. Be the bigger person, get over it, and move on
 
Mir
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon May 05, 2014 9:28 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I don't see that as apples to apples, England isn't a Anglican state of Anglicans only (or however the Israeli proposal is worded)

And I never said it was - I'm putting England out there as a model of how Israel could be a Jewish state and still ensure the rights of non-Jews living there. The direction Netanyahu wants to take Israel, however, is not toward such a model but rather away from it, and I strongly dislike his proposal.

-Mir
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blueflyer
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon May 05, 2014 10:05 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
I'm putting England out there as a model of how Israel could be a Jewish state and still ensure the rights of non-Jews living there.

The Anglican and Norwegian churches became official churches centuries ago and, if anything, their respective influences over the affairs of the state has been waning over the years to a point it doesn't amount to much nowadays.
Not only does Netanyahu's suggestion go exactly in the opposite direction as England and Norway, but it isn't even about religion.

Instead it is about racial identity. If Netanyahu was motivated by religious fervor, he would have proposed Israel be called a Judaic state. Instead, he wants it known as a state for the Jewish people. Is the message it conveys any less clear than the United States of White America?

[Edited 2014-05-05 15:06:08]
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon May 05, 2014 10:30 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
This man is a thorn in the side of the peace process.

Agree...

And yet he says that about the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
I view them as the older son in the region... sometimes you have be harder on the older/more mature son because they should know better not to do such petty things.

This is why Israel should be held to a MUCH higher standard than other countries in the region, not only because of their past history, but because they enjoy unquestioning support from the west, although this is starting to wain somewhat now, especially from within Europe.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Israeli actions often baffle me because they often do such silly things that only drag out this bloody conflict even further.

They drag it out, with the express intention of continuing to build illegal settlements, that's why. If there were agreed boundaries set out by the UN or such, then that would take away the opportunity to continue the status quo

Quoting Revelation (Reply 2):
I left the campus there were just as many Muslims around as Jews, and the whole area went quiet on the Muslim sabbath

But yet, the Muslims are considered second class citizens and are not able to enjoy many of the same things that the Jews in Israel can ?

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
But if Israel wants to create a system where non-Jews are second-class citizens, or even create the possibility for such a system, they can expect a lot of pushback on it, and rightly so.

This is exactly what they want to do

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
Israel is facing a demographic trend that, if it continues, will eventually lead to Jews being a minority in the country, and the idea of a state belonging only to a minority hasn't gone very well throughout history.

You are right. And this is why they are "testing the waters" with this idea

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):
That's what is trying to be accomplished. You can't say a country is going to be for "one people only", and then say that others' rights are "guaranteed".

Well as you already know, they are not "guaranteed" now, and it will be no different in the future, just watch em...
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Mon May 05, 2014 11:32 pm

It's not apartheid. In apartheid the minority (or in S. Africa's case, the majority) are maintained and separated so that they may be exploited.

This is "racial purity" or "ethnic purity" or "ethnic cleansing."

And the irony that a Jewish state founded on shelter from ethnic cleansing should be doing the same seems to be lost on so many of my fellow Jews.
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 1:58 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 10):
But yet, the Muslims are considered second class citizens and are not able to enjoy many of the same things that the Jews in Israel can ?

I really don't expect Western Civilization to protect muslims but I do expect them to protect their own, ie Christians. Its just shocking, shocking to me that they do nothing to help them in Israel. All of the things they've done to Palestinian Muslims, they have also done to Palestinian and Lebanese Christians. I've heard 1st hand stories of Christians getting arrested without cause, forcibly destroyed entire Christian villages and having property expropriated without compensation etc. I don't even hear about it in Western media and some of this goes back to the very beginning of Israel's history so its a pattern.

Everyone in the US thinks its an issue of Israel vs. Muslims. Its not, its Judaism vs. non-Jews or gentiles. Whether you are Lebanese Maronite, Persian Bahai, Muslim, Armenian Christian, Coptic Christian or Syriac Christian doesn't really matter to these guys, you're still second class.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 2:05 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 10):
And yet he says that about the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas

So, here is an op/ed from Hayom on just that topic;

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_opinion.php?id=8253

Doesn't sound like much of a "peace maker" to me.  
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 10):
But yet, the Muslims are considered second class citizens and are not able to enjoy many of the same things that the Jews in Israel can ?

In many visits to Israel I have yet to find an Arab that wishes to move somewhere else. They all seem to be just fine living in Israel. An Arab cab driver that drove me from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv spoke about trips to Jordan to visit members of his family. When I asked if he thought his life would be better in Jordan he said "no".

Well. What about the Muslims in Australia?

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2004-06-1...solates-muslim-australians/1994544

Doesn't sound exactly like a paradise to me.  

A ridiculous argument. Is it ok if you call your country The Islamic Republic of --?--? Those countries aren't going to change their policies because you don't like it.
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N537FX
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 2:41 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 13):
In many visits to Israel I have yet to find an Arab that wishes to move somewhere else.

You are right, most will choose to stay within Israel,even if a border went around there village to be part of a palestinian state.

While i think religion and state should be separate, they do exist frequently together.
Anyone who accepts the Islamic republic of Iran, the islamic republic of Pakistan, the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan, all national-religious states should on the face of it accept a Jewish state. While in reality there is discrimination, saying yes to islamic republic of Iran but no to a Jewish state is not fair.

And why did they have final status peace talks at camp david in 2000 and in Annapolis in 2007 with settlement construction?

The Israelis have won this conflict. they have security but they don't have peace. People prefer security over peace.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 3:40 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
And the irony that a Jewish state founded on shelter from ethnic cleansing should be doing the same seems to be lost on so many of my fellow Jews.

This article gives "many similarities" and draws parallels between Israels current path, and that of South Africa, and what happened there.

After I read read it, and understood the examples given, much of it sounded obvious.especially if there is no successful peace outcome

Perhaps Kerry was not clear enough ?

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/20...n_israel_and_apartheid_burman.html

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 12):
All of the things they've done to Palestinian Muslims, they have also done to Palestinian and Lebanese Christians.

Id imagine its not easy trying to help, especially from the outside, let alone from within Israel?

Quoting N537FX (Reply 14):
most will choose to stay within Israel,

Then they are accepting of the fact they are second class citizens. That's there decision.

Read this article and you will see numerous examples of discrimination by Israel through its laws towards Arabs

Then tell me if you would live there, if you were Arab muslin whatever ?

http://www.irinnews.org/report/95095...inequalities-facing-arabs-says-icg

[Edited 2014-05-05 20:42:43]
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SOBHI51
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 4:47 am

Quoting N537FX (Reply 14):
the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan

Hashemite? That's not a religion

Quoting N537FX (Reply 14):
You are right, most will choose to stay within Israel,even if a border went around there village to be part of a palestinian state.

Simple, that's there homeland.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 13):
So, here is an op/ed from Hayom on just that topic;

For once why don't you quote a non bias source? Fed up from you always using Zionist sources.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 12):
I really don't expect Western Civilization to protect muslims

May i ask why not?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 13):
In many visits to Israel I have yet to find an Arab that wishes to move somewhere else

Again, because it's there HOMELAND. Got it?
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seb146
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 4:55 am

Are Palestinians and ethnic class while Israelis classify themselves as both religious and ethnic class? Why can't another ethnic class have their own country? Why is that such a hot button issue? "Because they will fight with Israel." Well, yes they will but consider the way they have been treated over the decades by Israelis.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 6:49 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 13):
In many visits to Israel I have yet to find an Arab that wishes to move somewhere else. They all seem to be just fine living in Israel. An Arab cab driver that drove me from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv spoke about trips to Jordan to visit members of his family. When I asked if he thought his life would be better in Jordan he said "no".

Why should he move somewhere else, his family probably lived there for thousands of years, that must piss off a lot of Israelie jews, they have no history or ties to the land, I also suggest he's one of the lucky Palestinians who didn't lose his village/home and become a refugee.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 12:18 pm

Quoting N537FX (Reply 14):
While i think religion and state should be separate, they do exist frequently together.
Anyone who accepts the Islamic republic of Iran, the islamic republic of Pakistan, the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan, all national-religious states should on the face of it accept a Jewish state. While in reality there is discrimination, saying yes to islamic republic of Iran but no to a Jewish state is not fair.

Ah, but therein lies a huge difference. In Iran, Pakistan, and Jordan, there's an overwhelming majority of Muslims in no danger of losing their status as such. That's not the case in Israel where the "ethnic" population is due to become a minority if current trends persist. That is what we are discussing.

I could care less if Israel declared itself a Jewish state. It doesn't affect me (not directly), but then again, what the OP mentioned and what Kerry said will become true: by becoming a Jewish state ("...to insist Israel is "the nation state of one people only – the Jewish people – and of no other people") there will come a time where Israel will become the next apartheid state.

And judging by Netanyahu's comments at the time, you can tell that he is not that interested in a peace deal after all if it means altering the status quo.
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PhilBy
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 12:34 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):
Binyamin Netanyahu will push ahead with a rare change to Israel's basic laws – which amount to the country's constitution – to insist Israel is "the nation state of one people only – the Jewish people – and of no other people".

It could well be that there is change in meaning during translation here - I assume that the original copy isn't written in English. If not it does suggest that being of the Jewish faith will be a pre-requisite for citizenship.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 1:03 pm

No surprise, this thread has turned into a "Mommy, he did it first!" thread instead of arguing points on their own merits.

Just because someone else got away with something doesn't mean you should do the same.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 10):
They drag it out, with the express intention of continuing to build illegal settlements, that's why. If there were agreed boundaries set out by the UN or such, then that would take away the opportunity to continue the status quo

  

I think Israel would find a way to ignore such boundaries or limits.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
This is "racial purity" or "ethnic purity" or "ethnic cleansing."

I agree it's not aparthied but also don't view it as ethnic cleansing, it's simply discrimination.

This just has not turned out well in any place it's been tried.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 13):
A ridiculous argument. Is it ok if you call your country The Islamic Republic of --?--?

I think the goal is for separation of church and state in most people's eyes. It's funny how Israel used to see itself as a beacon of enlightenment and is now having a hard time even holding up a facade.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 13):
Those countries aren't going to change their policies because you don't like it.

Nor will Israel.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 1:13 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 19):
That's not the case in Israel where the "ethnic" population is due to become a minority if current trends persist.

The ethnic populatiuon, which can only mean those there before 1947 is already an oppressed minority.
 
comorin
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 1:24 pm

Yet another Israel thread? Time someone came up with a meme!
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 2:12 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 16):
For once why don't you quote a non bias source? Fed up from you always using Zionist sources

Such as what----Al Jazeera?  
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 16):
because it's there HOMELAND

Funny thing, they think Jordan was their homeland.  

The more of Rob's posts I read the more I understand why Netanyahu wants a Jewish Israel.  
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ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 2:16 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 23):
Yet another Israel thread?

      

Yes, whenever it's a slow news day we can always count on the pityful in-house haters to come up with another Israel bashing thread.  
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 2:23 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 19):
Ah, but therein lies a huge difference. In Iran, Pakistan, and Jordan,

Point of clarification to our Western friends on what the "Islamic Republic of Iran" is since its never correctly translated in the West. You could also add Afghanistan to this list which also is officially a "Islamic Republic" even post US invasion.

When they say Islamic Republic they mean a democratic republic bounded by Islam. Its not a republic based ON Islam. The latter is very different and to a large extent nonsensical since Islam doesn't advocate a form of government . The reality of what most "Islamic Republics" are in practice is very different but at the time Iran ratified its Constitution in 1980 and became the first one, it was just a vanilla parliamentary democracy with some religious limits. It's not nearly as menacing on paper as it is in practice.

What the West views as a "Islamic Republic" is more akin to the Taliban. Its a government based on a Islam and Sharia Law. 90% of the law in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan is not Sharia based. The 10% that is, adultery for example, is what shows up on CNN.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 3:05 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Such as what----Al Jazeera?

Considering that Al Jazeera has been at odds with various governments in the region due to their reports without any bias, I'd consider Al Jazeera a good source.

But if you're going to nitpick, what about the BBC? Reuters? AP? You know...sources that aren't partisan and are not an opinion (I could very well open my own website and post various opinions against Palestine, would you consider it a source just because it suits your talking points?)
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SOBHI51
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 3:56 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Funny thing, they think Jordan was their homeland.

The funny thing here is that you believe they do, during your visit to the occupied land did you ever ask an Arab why they don't want to leave?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):
Such as what----Al Jazeera?

Here you go again, running away from an answer by trying to be funny.   
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daviation
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 4:06 pm

I sometimes enjoy watching the TV-Land channel here in the United States. You can see reruns of your favorite old shows, the characters you know, the has-been stars. It's fun and it's comforting and you can laugh.

This topic pops up every few weeks. It's fun to see the same story lines, the same characters, the same arguments. You can do the reruns over and over again.
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 4:19 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 27):
what about the BBC?

Dhimmi BBC? LOL! This ain't no 1940s. Try again.
 
victrola
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 4:30 pm

The Israelis are in serious trouble. Their settlement program is having the effect of making a two state solution impossible. If I were an Arab I would no longer be interested in a two state solution. All they have to do is wait and let demographics take its course. If Israel remains a democracy, then one day a Palestininan majority in the Kennesst will simply vote to change the name of the country to Palestine.

Does anyone out there see a viable solution for Israel as a Jewish state? Do you think they will resort to ethnic cleansing?
 
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 5:04 pm

Quoting victrola (Reply 31):
The Israelis are in serious trouble. Their settlement program is having the effect of making a two state solution impossible. If I were an Arab I would no longer be interested in a two state solution. All they have to do is wait and let demographics take its course. If Israel remains a democracy, then one day a Palestininan majority in the Kennesst will simply vote to change the name of the country to Palestine.

Does anyone out there see a viable solution for Israel as a Jewish state? Do you think they will resort to ethnic cleansing?

I do, and strangely, I'm Iranian yet I might come to the defense of Jews on part of this. Part of our sympathy is that any religious group anywhere can go somewhere and be in the majority population. If you are Shiite, you can go to Iran, Iraq or Bahrain, Sunnis can go to Saudi or Egypt etc. but if you take Israel away Jews have to be a minority everywhere in the world. That's not a pleasant feeling. We pity them in Iran. They went from an esteemed place in Persian Royalty to a subjugated group after the Romans took over from the Parthians all the way through world war 2. By our history and tradition, they are legally entitled to all of Judea and Samarra dating back to the Achaemenid period. Even the Ayatollahs acknowledge this though they don't advocate Zionism

They need to incorporate Gaza as part of the Sinai with Egypt as an autonomous province and do a population/land exchange of some sort with Palestine on the West bank. Then they need all of our oil money going to the Arab league to get forwarded to Palestine to the tune of $50 b from Kuwait, Saudi, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE to subsidize, reconstruct, educate and de-radicalize Palestine in the name of peace and Arab unity. Of course this will never happen. Unfortunately, many Arabs don't care for Palestinians and despite the same language, religion, region and ethnicity there is not much desire to help.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 5:31 pm

Quoting N537FX (Reply 14):
Anyone who accepts the Islamic republic of Iran, the islamic republic of Pakistan, the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan, all national-religious states should on the face of it accept a Jewish state. While in reality there is discrimination, saying yes to islamic republic of Iran but no to a Jewish state is not fair.

You could argue that Israel's wording is problematic, but when you get down to it, yes, I think we are holding a double standard. We hold Israel to a much higher regard like we hold our older kids to a higher regard than our younger ones.

An analogy I used in an earlier thread is how much outrage would there be if the government of Somalia gun downed 50 innocent protesters on the street? A bit. How much outrage would there be if the government of the US guned downed 10 innocent protesters on the street? It would be front page news all around the world and there would be a huge outrage. Does that make the world anti-American? We would treat it differently, obviously.

I think Israel should easily be able to get over the Jewish state thing and move the peace process along. Sure, it's not fair that we don't bash Islamic states but that's what being grown up is all about. We hold them to higher standards than many countries... if they want to be part of the big boys club they need to play by big boy rules

Quoting comorin (Reply 23):
Yet another Israel thread?

Yeah, it's probably the most problematic issue in the world (and when I say that, no, I'm not putting all the blame on Israel)

Quoting daviation (Reply 29):
It's fun to see the same story lines, the same characters, the same arguments.

That is where you are wrong. I learn a lot from these threads and I have changed my position a few times thanks to threads like these. And there are many more lurkers that read these posts and pick out which arguments they think are more compelling, trust me
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 5:49 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 26):
When they say Islamic Republic they mean a democratic republic bounded by Islam. Its not a republic based ON Islam. The latter is very different and to a large extent nonsensical since Islam doesn't advocate a form of government . The reality of what most "Islamic Republics" are in practice is very different but at the time Iran ratified its Constitution in 1980 and became the first one, it was just a vanilla parliamentary democracy with some religious limits. It's not nearly as menacing on paper as it is in practice.

What the West views as a "Islamic Republic" is more akin to the Taliban. Its a government based on a Islam and Sharia Law. 90% of the law in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan is not Sharia based. The 10% that is, adultery for example, is what shows up on CNN.

Yeah. O.K., whatever.  
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 27):
I'd consider Al Jazeera a good source

I'm sure you would. And, if I want an accurate weather forecast I always watch Granny Clampet's Weather Beetle.  
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 28):
during your visit to the occupied land did you ever ask an Arab why they don't want to leave?

Sure I do! They would rather live in Israel because of the standard of living. The education afforded their daughters as well as their sons. The level of medical care and on and on.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 28):
running away from an answer

So, you are saying you do not consider Al Jazeera a legitimate source of any news?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
I have changed my position a few times

Yes. We have noticed. Sometimes that's called flip-floping on issues. But, hey, it's all right. People change their minds all the time. And since you are always so quick to remind us, at least you are not an anti-semite, of course.  
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 6:20 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 34):
So, you are saying you do not consider Al Jazeera a legitimate source of any news?

Never did never will.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 6:26 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 34):
Sometimes that's called flip-floping on issues.

Yeah, if I'm doing it out of convenience just for personal gain. Since when is getting more information and changing one's views (instead of adamantly clinging to someone you know is wrong) some kind of bad thing?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 34):
at least you are not an anti-semite

I hope you are joking. Of course you're just going to have to trust me on this, and if you don't, well, whatever, but from my upbringing (my family, surrounding, time, place, etc) being anti-anybody 'just because' is beyond my comprehension. I'll never understand antisemitism. So at the very worst, I'm uninformed or come to incorrect conclusions, but I am NOT antisemetic. I don't trash Israelis or Jews yet I don't elevate them up as God's people or whatever. They're simply a group of people that are getting **** on that are also making piss poor decisions.

I won't go into the "do you think Israel is 100% right all the time" question because you have always refused to answer it but I'll just assume you believe they're not 100% perfect. Well, welcome to my boat. They do things right, they do things wrong. I just want them to be able to get along and live in peace with the other human beings (the Palestinians over there.)
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 6:32 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
I hope you are joking.

Of course! Who cares? We are a few loose cannons on a very small ship. The world could care less what a handfull of us thinks and NONE of us are experts in what we think except in our own little minds.

All we argue with is our opinions and we aren't going to change a thing.  
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 6:40 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 37):
The world could care less what a handfull of us thinks and NONE of us are experts in what we think except in our own little minds.

All we argue with is our opinions and we aren't going to change a thing.  

I disagree. I've learned a lot from these discussions and these discussions should be happening more. Of course 99% of the world won't see a.net but if this discussion happens all across the internet on different forums, then people over all will be more informed.

It's the same as my single vote on election day or a single grain of sand on the beach. A single instance of it is insignificant but there are millions of instances and that is where learning and change comes about
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 6:42 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
I've learned a lot from these discussions

Well, when it comes to these Israel bashing threads I've learned a lot too, especially about the people who post here.  
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 6:56 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 39):

What do you think about the whole "Jewish state" debate? I mean I know your preference, but why is it a deal breaker? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but all that I've seen is because "no one is making a big deal about Islamic states." Is this really something we want to block the peace process with? I would think the safety of the Israeli people (through a peace agreement) would be the highest priority.

It is for me, along with the peace of the Palestinians that aren't helping the situation but are mostly comprised with normal people that just want to live normal lives. That's how I get to my position.

I think the reason we don't see threads condemning Palestinian rocket attacks is that no one in their right mind agrees with that. I can see how, from your perspective, it looks like we always are beating up on Israel, but try to look at it from my point of view: to me, it's so obvious that I don't need to even comment on it. But on the other hand, one of our best allies and the only democracy in the region is doing some things that are more gray but I view as detrimental to peace in the region (the most important thing IMO.) Of course I'm gonna voice my concerns, just as I voice my concerns when a good friend of mine is doing something I think is not right
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 6:56 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 39):
Well, when it comes to these Israel bashing threads I've learned a lot too, especially about the people who post here.  

We are not bashing Israel, but acts committed by the governments of Israel.
A couple of years ago, i was asked a direct question, and unlike some people i gave a direct answer, Yes Israel have the right to exist on the condition of the existence of two states. Simple.
Now like i did some of you will accept that Palestinians also have a right to a country, then things will be much easier to discuss without accusations flying around.

But as you said

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 37):
All we argue with is our opinions and we aren't going to change a thing.  

Maybe because you are not ready or willing?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 7:04 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Thread starter):

Quote:
Netanyahu pushes to define Israel as nation state of Jewish people only

ImperialEagle

A direct question
Do you agree with the " only" in the above quotation?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...l-jewish-state?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2
The state of Israel provides full equal rights, individual rights, to all its citizens, but it is the nation state of one people only – the Jewish people – and of no other people. And therefore, in order to bolster the status of the state of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people, I intend to submit a basic law that will anchor this status."

[Edited 2014-05-06 12:07:36]
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
Maverick623
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 7:28 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 37):
The world could care less what a handfull of us thinks and NONE of us are experts in what we think except in our own little minds.

Lose the argument, claim it doesn't matter anyways.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 37):
All we argue with is our opinions and we aren't going to change a thing.

Why are you here then?
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 8:44 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 40):
the reason we don't see threads condemning Palestinian rocket attacks is that no one in their right mind agrees with that
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 13):
So, here is an op/ed from Hayom on just that topic;

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/news...=8253

Please read above op/ed that covers where Abbas is coming from.

And this (now) old news from Reuters;

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...inians-arabs-idUSBREA280J920140309
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 9:23 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44):

I read both of them but I'm not sure we're you're going with this...
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 10:40 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 44):
Please read above

Still waiting for some answers from you, or you don't have any?
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 11:38 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 21):
I think the goal is for separation of church and state in most people's eyes. It's funny how Israel used to see itself as a beacon of enlightenment and is now having a hard time even holding up a facade.

Smoke and mirrors, that's how they love to operate!

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 20):
If not it does suggest that being of the Jewish faith will be a pre-requisite for citizenship.

That's the way they want it.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 25):
Yes, whenever it's a slow news day we can always count on the pityful in-house haters to come up with another Israel bashing thread.

You could bother (Just for once) to argue the actual facts....
Instead all you can do is whine on about anti-Semitics, Jew and Israel haters, all the while conveniently ignoring any arguments presented to you.... Pathetic.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 28):
Here you go again, running away from an answer by trying to be funny.

You should know that's his "modus operandi" by now

Quoting victrola (Reply 31):
The Israelis are in serious trouble.

And its getting more serious for them, each and every day that passes. Bibi has his head so far up his ass he just cant see it though.But never mind, one day, when he eventually understands, he will get a rude shock.

Quoting daviation (Reply 29):
It's fun and it's comforting and you can laugh.

Confronting all right, for the rest of the world to see really just what is happening in Israel
I agree with you though... watching Israel dig a very deep hole for its self, on this matter and "past reruns" is laughable... well its getting there.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 33):
if they want to be part of the big boys club they need to play by big boy rules

But they have never played by the rules and they are not going to start unless the US and to a lesser extent the EU, pull the plug on billions of aid money.Simple.
There is a movement which is growing fast called the BDS...if governments wont do it the general populace can by boycotting Israeli products and services. Its already having a big effect, and Bibi and his cronies are worried by the how fast this movement is growing.
Hers the link...
http://www.bdsmovement.net/


Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43):
Lose the argument, claim it doesn't matter anyways.

That's how its always played out !

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 43):
Why are you here then?

We are all starting to wonder that ?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 46):
Still waiting for some answers from you, or you don't have any?

Hope you have a good book to read while you wait....

[Edited 2014-05-06 16:40:25]

[Edited 2014-05-06 16:42:30]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Pyrex
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Tue May 06, 2014 11:56 pm

Give me a break... hundreds of schoolgirls in Nigeria get kidnapped by a group of muslim terrorists to be sold as slaves. An 11 year old girl in Pakistan is being forced to marry as reparations for her uncle, who raped another young girl. And I am supposed to be all upset because Israel decided not to take the route most of Western Europe seems to be taking and capitulate to an islamic occupation?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Apartheid All Over Again Should The World Allow It

Wed May 07, 2014 12:30 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 47):
You could bother (Just for once) to argue the actual facts....
Instead all you can do is whine on about anti-Semitics, Jew and Israel haters, all the while conveniently ignoring any arguments presented to you.... Pathetic.

Yes, you are truly pathetic and all those other things you have mentioned. But we already know that don't you think?  
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 47):
growing fast called the BDS.

Stalling-out would be a better description. It's loosing ground every day.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 47):
Hope you have a good book to read while you wait....

Try something that does not require hatred.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 48):
Give me a break... hundreds of schoolgirls in Nigeria get kidnapped by a group of muslim terrorists to be sold as slaves. An 11 year old girl in Pakistan is being forced to marry as reparations for her uncle, who raped another young girl. And I am supposed to be all upset because Israel decided not to take the route most of Western Europe seems to be taking and capitulate to an islamic occupation?

Oh, Yeah!!!        Ain't it the truth! Omayn Seleh!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"

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