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TheCommodore
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Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 12:47 pm

I hope you are successful with the sanctions...         

And you show Israel up for what it apparently is. A bully and thug, racist and practicing the superior teachings of "apartheid and racism, as well as destroying peoples careers?

QUOTE.....

" Kirsten Nematandani, former president of the South African FA, said he fully backed Palestine's complaint.

As a country we appreciate what Palestine is experiencing. We went through much the same thing ourselves for decades."

Read more: Palestine seeking FIFA sanctions against Israel - Latest - New Straits Times http://www.nst.com.my/latest/palesti...inst-israel-1.595992#ixzz31gyxGSEL

http://www.nst.com.my/latest/palesti...-sanctions-against-israel-1.595992

Over tone's of what happened in South Africa in the 1980s and 1990s. you be the judge ?

Racism and Apartheid practices, maybe ?

This sort of bully boy behavior is completely unacceptable today, especially in sport and the world as a whole should no longer tolerate it.

Israel can no longer be Carte Blanch in it activities of knocking people of, or shooting people indiscriminately ..going about their legitimate business

And just to back it up in case anyone's a bit skeptical.....

Another separate and independent article

http://www.thenation.com/blog/178642...ent-israels-future-fifa-uncertain#

So its not only soccer players that are bombers now, along with children who throw stones. and are shot and killed and maimed for life, then its ok .. go figure

[Edited 2014-05-14 05:52:07]
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PhilBy
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 1:31 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
This sort of bully boy behavior is completely unacceptable today, especially in sport and the world as a whole should no longer tolerate it.

Unless Israel offends on/at a sporting fixture FIFA should ignore the dispute.
This sort of misplaced political activism is completely unacceptable today, especially in sport and the world as a whole should no longer tolerate it.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 1:33 pm

And Palestine is totally innocent in this conflict????
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alberchico
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 1:45 pm

If anything you could make a good argument that Russia needs to get booted from this summers WC....
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
Stealthz
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 2:00 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
" Kirsten Nematandani, former president of the South African FA, said he fully backed Palestine's complaint.

Indeed it was South Africa that complained long and bitterly that sport should be exempt from sanctions imposed on that country during the apartheid era!

Quoting alberchico (Reply 3):
If anything you could make a good argument that Russia needs to get booted from this summers WC....

And the F1 Grand Prix in Sochi this October... Oh there I go crossing my own line re sports & politics!!!
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 2:04 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 4):
Indeed it was South Africa that complained long and bitterly that sport should be exempt from sanctions imposed on that country during the apartheid era!

That was the minority white government of South Africa that complained long and bitterly etc....
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 2:13 pm

Look, my views on Israel are pretty clear, and if they were to do this, I would really hope they'd caveat this with not condoning many of Palestine's actions. It looks like, from what I'm seeing, they're making the Palestinians out to be complete victims... that is very far from the truth.

My thoughts on FIFA being political aside, this does seem pretty one sided. I went in depth in the other thread about how I think we can hold Israel to a higher standard in some areas, but this seems to completely ignore a lot of what Palestine does.

I wouldn't go as far to call it antisemitic but I would say it's not being fair (but again, not just because Israel is Jewish)
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 2:31 pm

I propose a boycott of FIFA. Stop buying their tickets, stop watching their televised matches, stop buying their t-shirts and merchandising.

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Israel can no longer be Carte Blanch in it activities of knocking people of, or shooting people indiscriminately ..going about their legitimate business

Israeli sources say that the two were tossing some sort of bombs/grenades just moments before, in which case the shooting is entirely legitimate. Obviously someone is lying - and I would suggest that historically Palestinians have had a much more difficult problem with the truth than Israel.

http://www.jpost.com/Sports/Report-F...estrictions-on-Palestinians-347239
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flyingturtle
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 2:56 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 2):
And Palestine is totally innocent in this conflict????

Nope. There are quite a few rectal holes on both sides.

But the more powerful party has to shoulder a bigger responsibility. It has always been like that, in every conflict. The military might of Israel should allow for being more lenient towards Palestine, isn't it? How about giving Palestine a working deep-sea port so that the Palestinian side has effectively something to lose in a conflict? And restoring the EU-paid international airport in Gaza? And treating human lives equally valuable, be it Palestinians and Israeli citizen?

And then, I've always seen a conflict party that solely blames the other side as morally bankrupt.


David
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PhilBy
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 3:10 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
my views on Israel are pretty clear, and if they were to do this, I would really hope they'd caveat this with not condoning many of Palestine's actions.

Unfortunately they cannot ban the palestinian team as well as the israeli team.
 
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 3:16 pm

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 9):
Unfortunately they cannot ban the palestinian team as well as the israeli team.

So there is some one sided BS .. why not??
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 3:18 pm

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 9):
Unfortunately they cannot ban the palestinian team as well as the israeli team.

Why not?

And this may be getting into a different topic all together, but I'm pretty wary of sports bans in general. Maybe not having the World Cup somewhere but banning a team?
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 3:43 pm

As a FIFA official I would ban Israeli participation, because Israeli government actions are systematically hindering the Palestinian national team in playing international matches.

As a sports association, you have to try all possibilities to establish a level playing field between all national teams. If you can't influence the Israeli government, then the Israeli football association has to bear the brunt. Sorry, but we cannot celebrate sports when people are discriminated for having the wrong domicile.


David
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Kiwirob
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 4:30 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 2):
And Palestine is totally innocent in this conflict????

Pretty much, they are fighting an invading enemy who has occupied their country.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 4:37 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 13):
Pretty much, they are fighting an invading enemy who has occupied their country.

So blowing up civilians is the way to go?
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 4:41 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 13):
Pretty much, they are fighting an invading enemy who has occupied their country.

Never explain anything. Your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't listen to you anyway.  


I think it's much more worthy to discuss the real topic - why the Palestinian national team cannot freely compete in games offered by AFC and FIFA, and what should be done to improve this situation. Otherwise we will just have a flamefest between Israel fanboys and Palestine aficionados. 


David
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flyingturtle
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 4:49 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
So blowing up civilians is the way to go?

All men agree what is evil and what not. There are only differences in justifying the evils.

U.S. drones are still blowing up civilians on a regular basis, so Palestinians blowing up civilians can't be such a bad thing. And I think I don't need to bring up Begin and Shamir, both terrorists, who were actually leaders of that oh so fair and just Israel.

You set the example, and others will follow you...

...but I won't spend much time in this thread.


Cheers,


David
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 4:55 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 16):
U.S. drones are still blowing up civilians on a regular basis, so Palestinians blowing up civilians can't be such a bad thing.

How does one wrong make another wrong right?
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 5:01 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
How does one wrong make another wrong right?

In no way. But in order to say or do something against Palestinian extremists, you must have some credibility left. When President Obama denounces rocket attacks by Hamas, he operates in his own moral vacuum. I won't trust him. Full stop. He would have to stop these more or less indiscriminate drone attacks in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen first.

The same principle applies here: If I had an earlier track record of beating women, I would abstain from publicly supporting woman's rights organizations. By doing so, I would run the danger of undermining the very thing I fight for.


David

[Edited 2014-05-14 10:03:05]
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 5:07 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 3):
If anything you could make a good argument that Russia needs to get booted from this summers WC....

Not really, if invasion of Iraq against will of the UN didn't get United States booted from anywhere why should Russia peacefully annexing bunch of land with support of local population do?

I don't get the point of boycotts like this really. I see it as childish behavior similar to people hating Russia's Eurovision song just because of a small, insignificant conflict in this ex Soviet republic called Ukraine.
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PhilBy
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 6:05 pm

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 9):
Unfortunately they cannot ban the palestinian team as well as the israeli team.

My bad. I thought that as Palestine was not officialy recognised as a nation they weren't represented. They can and should ban both teams (along with Russia and the US).
 
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 6:24 pm

Yeah, FIFA: slaves in Qatar, miserable working conditions in Brasil, Russia is welcome at the WC but Israel is to blame for strange and partially false accusations ... well done!
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flyingturtle
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 6:38 pm

Quoting LH526 (Reply 21):
Yeah, FIFA: slaves in Qatar, miserable working conditions in Brasil, Russia is welcome at the WC but Israel is to blame for strange and partially false accusations ... well done!

FIFA is a corrupt organization, true. You give them money, they'll follow you. And I cannot understand how they gave the championship to Qatar. I still imagine that some FIFA officials were fed money through an enema.

But then, you still have travel sanctions on Palestinian national team players. And it's in the nature of a sports organisation to defend their rights to do... sports. The joy of meeting foreign players of the same sports is something that can't be hidden. Never.


David
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RussianJet
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 8:26 pm

Sorry, I don't think sport should be politicised. I know it often is, but it shouldn't be.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 9:36 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 2):
And Palestine is totally innocent in this conflict????

Who said that ?

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 5):
That was the minority white government of South Africa that complained long and bitterly etc....

That's right, I think it was back when President De klerk was running the place ?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
It looks like, from what I'm seeing, they're making the Palestinians out to be complete victims... that is very far from the truth.

Am not sure.... as the article states, one of the players was arrested by the IDF on returning from a game in Qatar, with no apparent reason given ?

The coach seems to think he will be released in a week.... not sure how/why hes thinks that though?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Israeli sources say that the two were tossing some sort of bombs/grenades just moments before, in which case the shooting is entirely legitimate.

One thing I find strange about this is that, both players were apparently shoot in the feet.....

Maybe they were throwing bombs by kicking then over the wall ?

Seems a little suspicious to me......

Anyway their football career is now over, thanks to some very good marksman in the IDF ?

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):
But the more powerful party has to shoulder a bigger responsibility. It has always been like that, in every conflict

That's not allowed to be suggested of Israel being held to be responsible because they are more powerful... well at least in the other thread its not !

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):
How about giving Palestine a working deep-sea port so that the Palestinian side has effectively something to lose in a conflict? And restoring the EU-paid international airport in Gaza? And treating human lives equally valuable, be it Palestinians and Israeli citizen?

That would be a very good start.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 12):
As a FIFA official I would ban Israeli participation, because Israeli government actions are systematically hindering the Palestinian national team in playing international matches.

On the surface of the article that is very much the way I read it.

Actions of the Israeli Government are yet again hindering outside of politics into sport

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 12):
Sorry, but we cannot celebrate sports when people are discriminated for having the wrong domicile.

My thought too.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 19):
I don't get the point of boycotts like this really.

Movements ofter start out small... hopefully with big outcomes at the end.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 22):
FIFA is a corrupt organization, true.

Yes that's very true too !

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 23):
Sorry, I don't think sport should be politicised. I know it often is, but it shouldn't be.

It maybe being used to garner support, from an otherwise uninterested section of the community to the plight of a particular issue. if its right or wrong who knows... but at least it gets people talking and shines the light on the issue.

[Edited 2014-05-14 15:13:42]
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flyingturtle
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 9:37 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 23):
Sorry, I don't think sport should be politicised. I know it often is, but it shouldn't be.

Sports should avoid being entangled with politics, but where politically sensitive issues arise (like the Qatar candidacy for the football championships despite their open persecution of homosexuals), it should not turn a blind eye to the problems and say "Uh, we have nothing to do with these homosexuals. We only care about football." The moral bell rings hollow, the banknotes are silencing its sound.

Sports is a place where people meet as gentlemen, adhere to the same rules and enjoy values such as humanity, respect, fairness and friendship. In a sports event itself, all political, racial and religious quarrels should be ignored, in favor of these aforementioned values. A ceasefire is in effect.

But restrictions on travelling visa for Palestinian football players is contrary to these values, and that's where a good sports association kicks in. FIFA is right in doing anything so that Palestinians are able to compete freely in international football events.


David

[Edited 2014-05-14 15:29:59]
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planemaker
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed May 14, 2014 10:17 pm

Unfortunately, Israel must delegitimize every attempt at any perception of Palestinian statehood... even in sports.

I don't see how Israel can ever resolve their "problem" when a key constituency does not even believe in the Palestinians ever having a state... period.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 12:49 am

I've read about Avery Brundage, and he was a guy who completely ignored the political side of sport. As an athlete, he competed with Jim Thorpe whose medals were taken away because of his earlier semi-professional sport, and Brundage wanted the Olympics to stay purely amateur. And he turned a blind eye to Soviet athletes whose accommodation, food, travels and training equipment was paid for by the state. "It's their way of life", he said (not verbatim), but the damage was done.

There are many facets where sports are touching politics.

Travel visa for Palestinians?
Should we change clothing requirements for female football players from Iran?
Do we have a guarantee that openly gay athletes won't be put into prison, for example at the world championships in Qatar?
Can we schedule a football championship on Ramadan?
Who bears the security costs for the Olympic Games?
How should we deal with different kinds of handicaps in the Paralympic Games, where arm amputees compete with leg amputees in triple jump?
And Oscar Pistorius brought up the question of "blade runners" participating in events for non-handicapped people.

FIFA obviously can't change things quickly in regard to Israel, but they have to take a stance and justify it. And remain credible while doing that. And it will be interesting to hear the Israelis football association's position on that. They too can't say "It's not our business", though I expect such an outcome.




David
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 3:40 am

After reading the article in the New York Times

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
http://www.thenation.com/blog/178642...ent-israels-future-fifa-uncertain#

A question comes to my mind
If somebody is throwing a grenade to you shoot to kill or shoot at his feet?
Is it a coincidence that two football players got shot in the legs on of them with 10 shots the other one bullet in each leg?

It's not an accusation as i have no proof, but it makes me wonder.
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PanHAM
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 5:18 am

Well, then let's start woith Palstinian organisations acknowledging the existance of Israel as is, where is. That would be step one, many others to follow.

I was cross reading through 29 replies biut could find nowhere the question why Israel is forced to Play in the Euro league and not in the Middle east league.

The answer is simple, most countries in that league would not let Israeli Teams in, not speaking about the fans and if they would, the states would not guarantee safe passage.
Or, to put it more simple, Israel would be the only Country in that Club which is ruled by the law.

Now, think it over, who is discriminated here?

.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 6:45 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
So blowing up civilians is the way to go?

It worked for the Israeli’s.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 6:54 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
Well, then let's start woith Palstinian organisations acknowledging the existance of Israel as is, where is. That would be step one, many others to follow.

Great idea, yes, I agree wholeheartedly.... but just before we do that, can we please ask Israel to recognize the simple fact, that there will be a nation state called Palestine, and that with Israels cooperation, it will happen sooner rather than later !

Oh, and while we are at it, can we get Israel to stop build illegal settlements on stolen/illegal .

It works both ways...... I think that's how it goes ?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
The answer is simple, most countries in that league would not let Israeli Teams in, not speaking about the fans and if they would, the states would not guarantee safe passage.
Or, to put it more simple, Israel would be the only Country in that Club which is ruled by the law.

Well that's a shame for Israel, but aren't they lucky they still have friends in Europe.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 29):
Now, think it over, who is discriminated here?

So Israel is discriminated against, by neighboring states !

Does that then give Israel the right to subject the Palestinians in a disgusting way ?

[Edited 2014-05-14 23:55:53]
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PanHAM
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 7:11 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 31):
Great idea, yes, I agree wholeheartedly

wonderful. may I remdind you that all that what you say here was negotiated at Camp David and Arafat did not agree at the end of the day?

So we come back to the Point where a high tech Country has to deal with People who not only drive donkey carts but are at that stage of thinking as well.
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Aaron747
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 8:01 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 32):
wonderful. may I remdind you that all that what you say here was negotiated at Camp David and Arafat did not agree at the end of the day?

You're leaving out the part where Israeli radicals silenced Rabin, permanently. Relationships are often a key element of implementing successful agreements.

Plenty of horseshit to shovel on both sides of this one. Neither the radical Palestinians or radical Israelis have a leg to stand on - and lots of losers in the middle who side with emotional, rather than reasonable arguments.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 8:11 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 32):
wonderful. may I remdind you that all that what you say here was negotiated at Camp David and Arafat did not agree at the end of the day?

What....... Please explain

Camp David ?

And "all what I said" ?

What did I say, that was in any way related to the Camp David Talks ?

Oh gosh...... can we please live in the present. Camp David was 14 odd years ago, under a different style of leadership between the two countries of which both leaders are now long gone, and under a different US President !

And since you bring up the The Camp David talks, and in particular, your reference of Arafat not agreeing, Well, there is a lot more to the failed David talks, than the flippant interpretation you and others would put on it !

Your other comment.... is just pathetic

For a person with a RR of 29, I would have thought better of you... however this is just a.net, so it means shit I guess !
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AyostoLeon
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 10:03 am

@ TheCommodore,

You might get further by concentrating on the argument rather than personal attacks.

While I don't always see eye to eye with PanHAM, I can see how a respect rating might be earned. His contributions in the aviation forums are often instructive and informative and I guess that is where he has achieved his rating. Certainly, I have learnt much about the world of air freight from his posts.

Feel free to argue, agree or disagree, but try and keep it civil.

As to the subject of the thread, if it is shown that Israel is unreasonably preventing Palestinians from travelling to fixtures, or if Israel is ensuring that teams from outside PA's area can not enter with out just cause, then FIFA could and should take action.

The allegations that soldiers deliberately shot players in the feet is a bit more problematic. FIFA could ask Israel to investigate and possibly lay charges against the soldiers involved, but I doubt you could prove such shootings are in furtherance of a deliberate policy, even assuming for the sake of argument that they were.

[Edited 2014-05-15 03:16:38]
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PanHAM
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 10:29 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 34):
Camp David ?

Not that I want to make comparisons, but your remark has almost the Quality of Erdogan's speech comparing mine desasters in 1906 with those of 2014. As if technology had not improved.

I could now say "I have a dream", but can you imagine what could have happened if Arafat had accepted the stretched out Hand? Possibly the same People who offered that Hand 14 years ago would still be in Office.

Chances and opportunities in all parts of life must be taken.and often enough there are only seconds that such opportunities exist. Ask us Germans, without the right guy at the helm history might have taken another turn.

Whichever way you look at it, Arafat and the hardliners behind him screwed up brilliantly.
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ltbewr
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 11:14 am

I tend to agree that if you go after Israel, then many other countries with terrible human rights issues would have to be sanctioned as well.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 1:46 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 30):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
So blowing up civilians is the way to go?

It worked for the Israeli’s.

So that's a yes? (You know, you can condemn Palestinians blowing up civilians AND condemn Israeli drone strikes that kill civilians)

And IDK why I'm even taking this comment seriously, but how in the world is that working for the Israelis? It's only pissed off Palestinians even more
 
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 4:03 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 32):
all that what you say here was negotiated at Camp David and Arafat did not agree at the end of the day?

Camp David was all about portraying Ehud Barak as the hero who made heroic sacrifices in the name of peace... but it was Barak who gave Arafat only two options: A) You get nothing. B) You get something, but there will be NO future talks, e.g. about the right of return.

For Arafat, the only politically sensible thing was to refuse option B. Full stop. For Barak, on the other hand, offering these two "solutions" was a calculated and risk-free move. Option B would just make him the person who ended the Middle East conflict single-handedly, option A would be a propaganda victory that portrays Arafat as a warmonger.

Camp David II was a tragedy, a shame.


David

[Edited 2014-05-15 09:57:21]

[Edited 2014-05-15 10:02:21]
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 4:09 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
And IDK why I'm even taking this comment seriously, but how in the world is that working for the Israelis? It's only pissed off Palestinians even more

At any rate, Israeli terror drove the British from their mandate area. So it worked for them, yes.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Chaostheory
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu May 15, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
AND condemn Israeli drone strikes that kill civilians)

KiwiRob is in all likelihood referring to the terrorist actions of the Israeli Stern and Irgun gangs in their fight for a free state. The bombing of the King David hotel for example.
 
todaReisinger
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Fri May 16, 2014 12:00 am

Yet another Israel^-thread by Commodore. The fascination is still powerful. But I know, fighting against an obsession is very difficult.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):
But the more powerful party has to shoulder a bigger responsibility. It has always been like that, in every conflict. The military might of Israel should allow for being more lenient towards Palestine, isn't it? How about giving Palestine a working deep-sea port so that the Palestinian side has effectively something to lose in a conflict?

yeah great, a deep port in Hamas-land to bring in even more weapons. Bright Swiss idea.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 12):
As a FIFA official I would ban Israeli participation

Yes. It is very fashionable now in Switzerland to ban anything Israeli. I feel happy and proud that our Army is still resisting this movement...

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 12):
Sorry, but we cannot celebrate sports when people are discriminated for having the wrong domicile.

Then I guess there will be a lot of countries out of the FIFA games.

Oh but no, sorry, I forgot that bans and boycotts are justified only against ONE country in the entire world.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 18):
He would have to stop these more or less indiscriminate drone attacks in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Yemen first.

Ask Mrs Schlumpf to tell him on her next trip.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 34):
Your other comment.... is just pathetic

For a person with a RR of 29, I would have thought better of you... however this is just a.net, so it means shit I guess !

Very poor comment.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
(You know, you can condemn Palestinians blowing up civilians AND condemn Israeli drone strikes that kill civilians)

AND condemn US drone strikes that kill civilians.

Being understood that Israeli and US drones are purposedly targeting innocent civilians while Palestinian bombers targeting an Israeli bus are not.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 39):
Camp David was all about portraying Ehud Barak as the hero who made heroic sacrifices in the name of peace... but it was Barak who gave Arafat only two options: A) You get nothing. B) You get something, but there will be NO future talks, e.g. about the right of return.For Arafat, the only politically sensible thing was to refuse option B. Full stop. For Barak, on the other hand, offering these two "solutions" was a calculated and risk-free move. Option B would just make him the person who ended the Middle East conflict single-handedly, option A would be a propaganda victory that portrays Arafat as a warmonger.Camp David II was a tragedy, a shame.

Re-writing history is also fashionable.

At Camp David 2, Arafat got a State on almost 100% of the 1967 territories, with a capital in East Jérusalem and the "right of return" for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians Inside Israel.

This was, however, not enough to end the conflict. Why? Because Israel did not agree to open its borders to millions of Plaestinian "refugees".

Anf THIS is the illustration of the whole problem. The official story is to establish a Palestinian State "alongside Israel" in peacuful coexistence. However, in addition to establish this State, the Palestinians ask for the "return" into pre-1967 Israe of 4 to 5 millions "refugees".

Well..... if those "refugees" and great grand children of refugees have been waiting for so long, I guess that it was in order to live in a Palestinian country. But apparently they want to live in Israel. Isn't it EXTRAordinary...?
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Aaron747
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Fri May 16, 2014 1:20 am

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 42):
Well..... if those "refugees" and great grand children of refugees have been waiting for so long, I guess that it was in order to live in a Palestinian country. But apparently they want to live in Israel. Isn't it EXTRAordinary...?

Israel has the economic resources and potential to bring far greater improvements in standard of living to young Palestinians than they've ever known, as an all-inclusive state. Nothing will delegitimize Hamas faster than that. It's a shame that conservative elements in the Israeli government continue to rely on emotional cries of force and barrier-based solutions rather than the obvious practical one.

The key to realizing any vision is looking at what can be achieved, not what has come before.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Fri May 16, 2014 1:57 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 43):

The key to realizing any vision is looking at what can be achieved, not what has come before.

  
As long as people continue to drag up the past with claim and counter claim, attributing fault to others and denying their own, we can not expect any progress. As todareisinger said, "Re-writing history is ... fashionable," and that applies just as much to Holocaust denial as it does to Nabka denial. The question is, why keep on emphasing the past? Is it intended to block progress and justify one's own inflexibility and willingness to compromise? Perhaps we need to "forget the past" so that we can forgive and move on. Not forget in the sense of pretending it didn't happen but in the sense that the future is what we need to focus on.

Perhaps the solution would be for the Palestinians to accept a unitary state that ensures everyone enjoys full equality before the law, not just vague civil rights but full citizenship and no expulsions. With active participation in the Knesset and in Government, they will be in a position to ensure peace, clarification of land title and a viable future.

But of course, any "right to return" would have to apply equally to Jews and Arabs. If it didn't, then there could be no talk of all being treated equally. There may be objection to this because it might threaten the idea of a "Jewish Homeland." Yet as we have seen with Jews in the diaspora, the right to return is not the same as the desire to return. Those Palestinians who have residency or citizenship in other countries might choose to remain where they are.
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flyingturtle
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Fri May 16, 2014 4:57 pm

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 42):

I had troubles finding any reasoning in your posting.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 42):
yeah great, a deep port in Hamas-land to bring in even more weapons

Distrusting the very people Israel has to make peace with in the long run. Oh, great. It has always worked...   

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 42):
At Camp David 2, Arafat got a State on almost 100% of the 1967 territories, with a capital in East Jérusalem and the "right of return" for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians Inside Israel.

Percentages can be very misleading. Yes, Arafat was offered "almost 100%", but with full sovereignity in much less than these 100%!

Read a bit, please:

The Israeli negotiators proposed that Israel be allowed to set up radar stations inside the Palestinian state, and be allowed to use its airspace. Israel also wanted the right to deploy troops on Palestinian territory in the event of an emergency, and the stationing of an international force in the Jordan Valley. Palestinian authorities would maintain control of border crossings under temporary Israeli observation. Israel would maintain a permanent security presence along 15% of the Palestinian-Jordanian border. Israel also demanded that the Palestinian state be demilitarized with the exception of its paramilitary security forces, that it would not make alliances without Israeli approval or allow the introduction of foreign forces west of the Jordan River, and that it dismantle terrorist groups. One of Israel's strongest demands was that Arafat declare the conflict over, and make no further demands. Israel also wanted water resources in the West Bank to be shared by both sides and remain under Israeli management.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit

This does not sound like an acceptable offer, under any circumstance. But it's still fashionable to believe Ehud Barak made a generous offer... yawn.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 42):
This was, however, not enough to end the conflict. Why? Because Israel did not agree to open its borders to millions of Plaestinian "refugees".

Any deal Arafat could reasonably agree to would be one that does not preclude the right of return.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 42):
Re-writing history is also fashionable.

I still wonder why the fanboys of Israeli politics never mention the countless Jewish scholars who spoke against the founding of a Jewish nation back in the dawn of the 20th century and earlier. I envy their foresight.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 44):
to accept a unitary state that ensures everyone enjoys full equality before the law, not just vague civil rights but full citizenship and no expulsions

        

This is the only hope for peace in Middle East.


David

[Edited 2014-05-16 10:12:10]
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Sun May 18, 2014 11:15 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 35):
Feel free to argue, agree or disagree, but try and keep it civil.

I am not going to take such an outrageous comment without pulling him up on it.

It was completely insulting IMHO, and you would do well to pull him up on it, rather than tick me off about "keeping it civil"

Let me ask you a question.... Do you find such a statement acceptable ?

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 35):

The allegations that soldiers deliberately shot players in the feet is a bit more problematic.

Yes, problematic for Israel. It goes to show, yet again, the tactics used by Israel against the Palestinians in every facet of daily life.... Focusing now sport !

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 36):
Whichever way you look at it, Arafat and the hardliners behind him screwed up brilliantly.

If you are wearing the right sort of glasses, I guess you would see that.

However, I am lucky enough not to wear glasses, so my outlook of what occurred at Camp David is vastly different than that of yours.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 39):
Camp David II was a tragedy, a shame.

Yes it was. And typical tricky conduct from Barak ! Like you tend to get from Israeli leaders  

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 42):
Bright Swiss idea.

it is actually. like many good Swiss ideas... Ever heard of the "Swiss watch" its VERY accurate indeed !!
     
Quoting todareisinger (Reply 42):

Yes. It is very fashionable now in Switzerland to ban anything Israeli

Oh... But its not just in Switzerland, its happening slowly right around the world.. Remember, BDS !

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 42):
Re-writing history is also fashionable.

Seems very fashionable, especially in Israel
 
Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 44):
The question is, why keep on emphasing the past? Is it intended to block progress and justify one's own inflexibility and willingness to compromise? Perhaps we need to "forget the past" so that we can forgive and move on.

This is the way Israel believes it will work for them.... never ever let people forget what happened way way back in WW11

Its called the "guilt" factor. But its starting to wear thin now that the older generation are dying out and the younger generation has little interest in all that, they are more concerned about the present.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 45):
I had troubles finding any reasoning in your posting.

You are not the only one

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 45):
Percentages can be very misleading. Yes, Arafat was offered "almost 100%", but with full sovereignity in much less than these 100%!

Read a bit, please:

The Israeli negotiators proposed that Israel be allowed to set up radar stations inside the Palestinian state, and be allowed to use its airspace. Israel also wanted the right to deploy troops on Palestinian territory in the event of an emergency, and the stationing of an international force in the Jordan Valley. Palestinian authorities would maintain control of border crossings under temporary Israeli observation. Israel would maintain a permanent security presence along 15% of the Palestinian-Jordanian border. Israel also demanded that the Palestinian state be demilitarized with the exception of its paramilitary security forces, that it would not make alliances without Israeli approval or allow the introduction of foreign forces west of the Jordan River, and that it dismantle terrorist groups. One of Israel's strongest demands was that Arafat declare the conflict over, and make no further demands. Israel also wanted water resources in the West Bank to be shared by both sides and remain under Israeli management.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit

This does not sound like an acceptable offer, under any circumstance. But it's still fashionable to believe Ehud Barak made a generous offer... yawn.

But it dose if you are Israeli !!

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 45):
I still wonder why the fanboys of Israeli politics never mention the countless Jewish scholars who spoke against the founding of a Jewish nation back in the dawn of the 20th century and earlier. I envy their foresight.

Right on !
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Mon May 19, 2014 3:15 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 46):
Its called the "guilt" factor. But its starting to wear thin now that the older generation are dying out and the younger generation has little interest in all that, they are more concerned about the present.

There's a great documentary movie about that, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation_%28film%29 - there, among other stuff, the Israeli filmmaker documents a tour of Israeli students to Auschwitz, and shows how the pupils are hindered at interacting with Poles and today's Poland. All they get to see is their own past...

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 42):
Yes. It is very fashionable now in Switzerland to ban anything Israeli.

I missed this sensational, over-dramatic end-of-the-world sentence before. 

What the Swiss did was scrutinizing the imports of SodaStream equipment and cartouches, because Switzerland does have a free trade agreement with Israel, but not with Palestine. Because SodaStream produces some of the products in occupied territory, SodaStream acted illegally by producing stuff in Palestine, bringing it over to Israel, and then shipping them to Switzerland as an Israeli product. The EU did the same, by the way. (Now, SodaStream produces stuff for the European market in Israel proper, avoiding this quagmire.)


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
todaReisinger
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Sun May 25, 2014 10:26 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 43):
It's a shame that conservative elements in the Israeli government continue to rely on emotional cries of force and barrier-based solutions rather than the obvious practical one.

The "barrier-based" solution combined with the liquidation of the main "spiritual" incentive for suicide bombings, has proved, for the time being, to be the only efficient element against this Deadly plague.

But apparently Aaron747 has "the obvious practical solution" to end the conflict and pacify the whole ME.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 44):
Those Palestinians who have residency or citizenship in other countries might choose to remain where they are.

Yes yes they are so well treated in these countries that they will certainly choose to remain where they are.

And if "they" decide not to remain where they are, how do you settle 3 or 4 or 5 millions Palestinians in Israel...? Do you have an idea of the size of the area we are talking about? I see no solution, but let's Aaron747 give us his "obvious practical solution".

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 45):
This does not sound like an acceptable offer, under any circumstance.

Sure. Tell us more maybe about an "acceptable offer".

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 45):
I still wonder why the fanboys of Israeli politics never mention the countless Jewish scholars who spoke against the founding of a Jewish nation back in the dawn of the 20th century and earlier. I envy their foresight.

Oh yes, creating Israel was a big mistake and it should be dismantled. Than 4 or 5 or 6 million Palestinians will settle in Israel, Palestine will live in peace and quiet with all its neighbors (like is the case in the whole ME) and everything will be fine. Oh but....what happens with the 7 Jewish Israelis?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 46):
Oh... But its not just in Switzerland, its happening slowly right around the world.. Remember, BDS !

yeah, we all know this makes you feel happy and proud.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 47):
Now, SodaStream produces stuff for the European market in Israel proper, avoiding this quagmire.)

Soda Stream still makes lots of profits, but does not employ Palestinian workers anymore. But Swiss supermarkets have the great feeling of helping justice.......
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AyostoLeon
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Mon May 26, 2014 2:07 am

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 48):
how do you settle 3 or 4 or 5 millions Palestinians in Israel...?

The same way as you "settle" 3, 4 or 5 million people who came from elsewhere, except of course the preferred term is "returned" when it applies to those from outside the region. Don't worry, I know how large or small the area under discussion is. The Gaza Strip contains about !.85 million people yet compared to Israel is a very small area. There are large parts of Israel that are sparsely populated - the less desirable Negev, 55% of the land but about 9% of the population, for example - but Israelis prefer to turn their expansion to more attractive areas like the West Bank. By less desirable and attractive I mean in terms of the cost of development and access to resources, particularly water.

No one pretends the issue is easy but the reality is that you have a two state solution based on genuine sovereignty, you have a one state solution, or you can maintain the status quo with continuing conflict. Take your pick. If it is a two state solution then it means that Israel must give up control of the West Bank, withdrawing all military posts, and allow unrestricted access to Gaza. If Israel does not want that to happen, fine. Then it follows that ultimately a one state solution must be found because the present arrangement can not go on for ever.

But if it is a unitary state, will it be based on full equality (regardless of ethnicity or religion) or not? Will it require ethnic cleansing to preserve the fundamental nature of Israel as a Jewish State? Those are the answers that have to be provided. It is all very well accusing everyone of being antisemitic (and given that obvious antisemitism that does exist that is understandable) but an answer to these vital questions must be found.
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