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todaReisinger
Posts: 903
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2001 4:19 am

RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:26 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 49):
No one pretends the issue is easy but the reality is that you have a two state solution based on genuine sovereignty, you have a one state solution, or you can maintain the status quo with continuing conflict. Take your pick. If it is a two state solution then it means that Israel must give up control of the West Bank, withdrawing all military posts, and allow unrestricted access to Gaza.

If your idea is for Israel to commit truly a national suicide, then fine: your plan is perfect.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 49):
But if it is a unitary state, will it be based on full equality (regardless of ethnicity or religion) or not? Will it require ethnic cleansing to preserve the fundamental nature of Israel as a Jewish State? Those are the answers that have to be provided. It is all very well accusing everyone of being antisemitic (and given that obvious antisemitism that does exist that is understandable) but an answer to these vital questions must be found.

Why do you ask your questions only in one way?

Why are you willfully ignoring the question of the conditions of the Israeli (or ex-Israeli) Jews living in a country where they would represent a minority in a Muslim majority?

Why are you ignoring the repeated call of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and many others to erradicate Israel and throw its population ("the Jews") to the sea? Or, to be more polite, send this population "back" to Europe?

These are also questions which might be asked, AyostoLeon.

And analyzed in a historical perspective as well as according to the present situation of the ME, the answers to these questions will look very frightening to any Israeli Jew or any person with some basic intelligence and good faith.
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
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Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:37 pm

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 50):
your plan is perfect.

  

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 50):
Why are you ignoring the repeated call of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and many others to erradicate Israel and throw its population ("the Jews") to the sea? Or, to be more polite, send this population "back" to Europe?

If you were constantly being treated like an animal, repeatedly, then these are the sorts of remarks people and organisations will say... simple !

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 50):
And analyzed in a historical perspective as well as according to the present situation of the ME, the answers to these questions will look very frightening to any Israeli Jew or any person with some basic intelligence and good faith.

Respect has to be earned, and is a "two" way street .
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
todaReisinger
Posts: 903
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:49 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 51):
your plan is perfect.

We all know that this would be your first choice for the "peace process". The green arrow is not necessary.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 51):
Quoting todareisinger (Reply 50):Why are you ignoring the repeated call of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and many others to erradicate Israel and throw its population ("the Jews") to the sea? Or, to be more polite, send this population "back" to Europe?

If you were constantly being treated like an animal, repeatedly, then these are the sorts of remarks people and organisations will say... simple !

Oh sure, the Hamas call for genocide or mass deportation is justified because of the bad behaviour of the Israelis themselves.

This kind of discourse has already been heard in the past.

But at least in this message you indicate some of your profoundly hateful feelings: Israel should commit suicide and disappear, and if Israel does not follow this road, then its "partners" in the "peace process" will be legitimate to take action and destroy Israel themselves.
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
Posts: 3458
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:11 am

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 52):
The green arrow is not necessary.

Its not an arrow.....!

Its a BIG tick of approval.               

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 52):
Israel should commit suicide and disappear, and if Israel does not follow this road, then its "partners" in the "peace process" will be legitimate to take action and destroy Israel themselves.

You said it.....

Israel is slowly strangling the Palestinian people....

Do you honestly expect them not to fight back ?

I guess you do !
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
AyostoLeon
Posts: 745
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 3:09 pm

RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:00 am

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 50):
If your idea is for Israel to commit truly a national suicide, then fine: your plan is perfect.

I have no plan for anyone to commit suicide. You simply can not have it both ways. On the one hand you claim that everyone is treated equally but you wish some to be more equal than others. By insisting that Jews have a right to return but Palestinians don't you are cementing inequality. By continuing to allow settlers to take over Palestinian land you are cementing division and animosity. It is up to you to decide what you want. Do you wish to live in peace with your neighbours or to you wish to displace them? You simply can't have both and claim to be just.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 50):
Why are you willfully ignoring the question of the conditions of the Israeli (or ex-Israeli) Jews living in a country where they would represent a minority in a Muslim majority?

I am not ignoring anything and am perfectly aware that discrimination exists and condemn it with equal force. I have in other threads stated that I am opposed to any discrimination, be it on ethnic or religious grounds and I make no exception for countries. I have previously stated that the Arab countries could show good faith by allowing the right of return to Jews who formerly lived in those countries. But that does not change the situation in Israel and the occupied territories.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 50):
call of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and many others to erradicate Israel and throw its population ("the Jews") to the sea?


How is this any different to some of the calls by some of Israel's most ardent supporters? They are clear about what they want. They at least state to the world unequivocally that Israel does not wish to see any two state solution that means giving up the West Bank, that Israel does not want a unitary state based on equal rights for every body and to ensure it, will "drive Palestinians into the desert". They claim that Palestinians already have a homeland in Jordan. We have seen such claims made in this forum and respectable journalists have said the same in newspapers and on television. Some Israeli politicians have advocated encouraging Arabs, by means of payment, to leave to ensure the fundamental Jewish character of Israel.

There is fault on both sides. At least be honest about it. But so long as people choose to emphasise the differences they make the chances of a peaceful solution of mutual benefit less likely. One can only ask why and why you persist in refusing to answer?

Your inference that those who disagree with you lack basic intelligence and good faith really is crude elitism and is no substitute to answering questions, if only because it is one sided. By historical perspective you are suggesting that only if one sees things from an Israeli Jewish perspective is one intelligent and has good faith. What about seeing things from an Israeli Arab perspective, or those who have lost their homes and those who continue to have their homes demolished? Do their views not count and do they lack historical perspective? I guess so.
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13352
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Mon Jun 02, 2014 7:29 am

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 41):
KiwiRob is in all likelihood referring to the terrorist actions of the Israeli Stern and Irgun gangs in their fight for a free state.

That is correct. It's just history repeating itself, except in this case the result will not be the same.
 
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flyingturtle
Posts: 6052
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:18 am

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 48):
Sure. Tell us more maybe about an "acceptable offer".

It begins with something like "All human beings are created equal, enjoy the same rights, and have the same duties. There will be no discrimination based on cultural heritage, religion, ancestry and place of living."

You still don't want to comprehend the simple and stupid fact that a Palestine nation also needs to control over its own water sources? Or to staff and equip its own (military) security forces?

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 48):
Oh yes, creating Israel was a big mistake and it should be dismantled. Than 4 or 5 or 6 million Palestinians will settle in Israel, Palestine will live in peace and quiet with all its neighbors (like is the case in the whole ME) and everything will be fine. Oh but....what happens with the 7 Jewish Israelis?

Reverse aalyiah. It's already happening. According to some interpretations of scripture, Israel will only exist if the Messias comes for the second time anyway. And what do you answer to the Jewish scholars' claims that it is the god-given destiny of the Jews to live in diaspora? Oops, Holocaust happened, and now we have to interpret scripture in a wholly different light?

Our only hope is a single country that you can call "Israel" and other people will call "Palestine". Its borders and area will be identical. And every inhabitant there will have the same rights. My proposal will not dismantle Israel. It will dismantle its Jewish character, and change its culture.

Tell me, does the Vatican State have a right to exist like Israel does?

Will I be branded as a vicious anti-Catholic if I say "Hey, this little country is a complete joke! Two popes per square kilometer! It just serves as the Popes seat, and otherwise it has no sense!"

Tell me. Please.

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 48):
Soda Stream still makes lots of profits, but does not employ Palestinian workers anymore. But Swiss supermarkets have the great feeling of helping justice.......

The issue was not using Palestinian workers. The issue was producing in Palestine! Israel has a customs agreement with Switzerland (and the EU), but Palestine had not. Producing something in Palestine and shipping it via Israel to Switzerland or the EU was illegal because nobody paid tariffs.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 53):
You said it.....

Israel is slowly strangling the Palestinian people....

Do you honestly expect them not to fight back ?

I guess you do !

  

And guess what? The moderate Palestinians try their best to achieve a better situation. Because the progress is so sluggish, it turns the young people to the extremists. Israel is responsible for the situation, and Israel creates extremism on the Palestinian side. Pot meet kettle.

But it will take some 50 or 60 years until Israeli politicians comprehend that truth.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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flyingturtle
Posts: 6052
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu Jun 05, 2014 8:23 am

In the whole debate of the Israel-Palestine problem there is an important point that is consistently overlooked by all parties.

It's about how a state comes into existence. A state exists only if it is recognizes by a number of other states.

Only the Palestinian government can write an official letter recognizing the existence of Israel. The declarations of the PLO, Fatah, Hamas and the other factions has exactly zero legal binding. What Hamas says is just an opinion, and nothing Israel should reckon with.

So the continued tantrum of politicians demanding the "right of existence" from political parties is just that... tantrum.

And the Palestinians will make damn sure that any recognition will be reciprocal, with equal rights for both states.

The existence of various Israeli parties that flatly deny the existence of a Palestinian state is another problem, though. 


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
AyostoLeon
Posts: 745
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 3:09 pm

RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:31 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 57):
A state exists only if it is recognizes by a number of other states.

The State of Palestine was proclaimed in Algiers back in 1988 and was recognised then by about 80 countries. Over time international recognition has grown to the point that the State of Palestine was recognised by a vote in the United Nations General Assembly. The vote was 138 to 9, with 41 abstentions. The question did not go to the Security Council as Palestine was recognised as a non-member observer State due to the threat by the US to veto full-recognition as a member state. Previous attempts at recognition failed following the US's threat to cut off funding to the UN and threats had been made using Foreign Assistance Act to discourage broader support.

There is no reason why the Government of Palestine can not make such a statement, indeed spokesmen for the PLO, which the UN had recognised as the sole representative of the Palestinian people, have previously expressed a willingness to do so. The agreement that established the Palestinian Authority was signed by Israel and representatives of the PLO. What has prevented the PA agreeing to formal recognition is Israel's insistence not just on recognition but recognition as a Jewish State and a refusal to discuss the right of return.

It's all part of the "talks without preconditions" approach. One side can impose conditions but the other side can't. That always happens when one side is in a much stronger position.

[Edited 2014-06-05 03:07:50]
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
Posts: 3458
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:09 pm

And yet more hostile actions against the Palestinians from Israel...

Israel cites security concerns for restricting travel of Palestinian soccer players

Read more: http://www.jta.org/2014/06/11/news-o...to-security-concerns#ixzz34ML9X4ru
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:56 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
I propose a boycott of FIFA. Stop buying their tickets, stop watching their televised matches, stop buying their t-shirts and merchandising.

I agree, but mainly on the basis of them being utterly corrupt and morally bankrupt.

I am no fan of the Israeli government, but sporting organizations should not be political. It's not FIFA's job to pick sides.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 13868
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RE: Palestine And Fifa Sanctions Against Israel

Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:49 am

Quoting todareisinger (Reply 48):
The "barrier-based" solution combined with the liquidation of the main "spiritual" incentive for suicide bombings, has proved, for the time being, to be the only efficient element against this Deadly plague.

But apparently Aaron747 has "the obvious practical solution" to end the conflict and pacify the whole ME.

There are no simple ways to pacify a region as diverse and complicated as the ME. We are talking about Israel though.

Nevertheless, it seems to me that for the Jewish state to live by Jewish values, and inspire all of her citizens with advances in education and fulfillment of life and potential, is far more positive than an endlessly defensive and self-aggrandizing political posture. Unfortunately, there are many who have lost what those values, long fought for, actually mean.

Not referring to entire populations of people as a 'plague' would be a good start, lest we forget the very words the Nazis used about us.
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