US Gov, Fund/support New Palestinian Admin

TheCommodore · Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:34 am

Well.....

More good news on the ME foreign affairs front, and not before time.

But wait, there is this "typical" response from an "Anonymous" spokesman from the Israeli Government........ Yawn!

"In Jerusalem, an Israeli official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said in a statement to reporters: "We are deeply disappointed by the State Department regarding working with the Palestinian unity government."

WHY..... ??????????? Wow!

Don't the Israeli people want PEACE !

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...an-unity-usa-idUSKBN0ED1VQ20140602

N537FX · Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:10 am

I read one Op-Ed on this topic that raised a unique point. The US is caught between supporting Palestinian unity and following its own laws that call Hamas a terror group. The Obama admin is violating US laws (although they can be argued to be bad laws) by recognizing a terror group in this government.

And again, survey after survey always show a majority of Israelis supporting a two state solution. even settler leaders like Avigdor Lieberman said he would leave his home in the WB for the sake of peace.

TheCommodore · Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:40 am

Quoting N537FX (Reply 1):
And again, survey after survey always show a majority of Israelis supporting a two state solution. even settler leaders like Avigdor Lieberman said he would leave his home in the WB for the sake of peace.

Where are you reading that...... ?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139309#.U41e5C_EPSc

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139309#.U41e5C_EPSc

"Lieberman reiterated that the “Cabinet decision that the freeze will last only ten months is clear and unambiguous, and there is no reason for us to perpetuate the freeze after that time.

[Edited 2014-06-02 22:41:34]

[Edited 2014-06-02 22:42:07]

AyostoLeon · Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:03 am

In reality there is no change in the US position. As the linked article shows, the Government of Palestine does not include any members of Hamas but is made up of people described as "technocrats".

The US position remains that it will not recognise a Government made up of, including or unduly influenced by Hamas. Of course there are some politicians in the US who have demanded that funding be suspended.

Quote:
"Funding for the Palestinians is off-the-table until it is clear that the unity government is committed to peace and security," said Republican Representative Kay Granger of Texas, chairwoman of the House of Representatives State and Foreign Operations subcommittee.

http://www.newsweek.com/us-says-it-w...ian-government-israel-upset-253211

She went on to say,

Quote:
"Hamas, not just members of the new government, must acknowledge Israel’s right to exist, renounce violence, and adhere to previous international agreements,"

The Executive have repeated the latter view many times, so there is no difference there, although it is always a one-way street. If the following link is accurate, celebrating Jerusalem Day, Netanyahu ruled out any concession to Palestinians with regard to Jerusalem, saying

Quote:
Jerusalem is Israel’s eternity, it is our heart, and we are guarding our heart – the heart of the nation. We will never divide our heart,”

Read more at http://www.breakingisraelnews.com/15...-divide-heart/#xc9przuZWx1JT18C.99

And in the clearest message possible that a change in the composition of the Government sworn in by Abbas makes no difference, the Minister for Housing, Uri Ariel, said,

Quote:
“There will be no more freezes, we will not accept delays and restrictions in Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and we will continue to build in all parts of our country,” he said.
“Jerusalem will not be divided again. Between the Jordan and the sea there will only be one state, and that is the State of Israel,” Ariel declared.

There is no indication that Netanyahu contradicted that claim.

So Commodore, despite your optimism, it would seem that life goes on as before.

TheCommodore · Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:20 am

You are kidding me right ?

"The US position remains that it will not recognise a Government made up of, including or unduly influenced by Hamas. Of course there are some politicians in the US who have demanded that funding be suspended.
[/quote]"

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 3):
In reality there is no change in the US position.

You are kidding right...... "no change in the US position"

Did you read the heading to the post ?

In reality.... They are all talking, that's something isn't it ?

And in reality, the US Gov, have effectively said they "support" the "new" regime....Even in "its "current" form and political makeup of "technocrats"

Appears to be a "shift" in foreign policy, attitude and thinking on behalf of the US to me.. Big Time!

Isn't that the main thing ?

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 3):
There is no indication that Netanyahu contradicted that claim.

He, (Bibi) is becoming increasingly "insignificant" in the entire deal... to steal the quote from another poster !

If he wont move, the people will make him !

The US position is the most important here, and its changing... nothing else. What Bibi says is really "insignificant" if he's and is treacherous Government lost/loosing support from the West and Europe... lets wait and see what happens.

[Edited 2014-06-03 00:27:13]

AyostoLeon · Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:22 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 4):
Did you read the heading to the post ?

Yes and more importantly I read the rest of the post.

Quote:
At this point, it appears that President Abbas has formed an interim technocratic government that does not include ministers affiliated with Hamas ... we will continue to evaluate the composition and policies of the new government and calibrate our approach accordingly.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 4):
They are all talking, that something isn't it ?

If there is one thing that has not been in short supply over the past few decades, it is talk. What is significant at present is that the latest round of talks was broken off without any agreement or tentative proposals for an agreement.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 4):
If he wont move, the people will make him !

Possibly. But in which direction will they prompt him to move?

As to any waning of support from Europe, while the EU Guidelines may direct that support for projects in Israel do not extend to the West Bank, and there have been calls for labelling of products made in the West Bank, the EU envoy Ashton has made it perfectly clear that no-one in the EU is thinking, let alone talking of sanctions against Israel, despite appeals for Israel to abide by International Law.

Indeed, following the agreement between the PA and Hamas, Ashton reiterated the demands that "the Palestinians" recognise Israel, renounce violence and adhere to previously made international agreements. Her frequent use of the word "the Palestinians" rather than Palestine while referring to Israel, rather than "the Israelis" does suggest that any support for Palestine is half-hearted at best. It implies full recognition for one side while only conditional recognition for the other. I don't think Israel need fear too much even if for internal consumption Netanyahu might exaggerate some of the comments.

TheCommodore · Tue Jun 03, 2014 9:14 am

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 5):
But in which direction will they prompt him to move?

Who knows. Hopefully down a very deep hole !

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 5):
As to any waning of support from Europe, while the EU Guidelines may direct that support for projects in Israel do not extend to the West Bank, and there have been calls for labelling of products made in the West Bank, the EU envoy Ashton has made it perfectly clear that no-one in the EU is thinking, let alone talking of sanctions against Israel, despite appeals for Israel to abide by International Law.

It really matters not about the West Bank, or the calls for labeling etc, or the sanctions, or Ashton really......

What matters most is that Europe is talking about Israel, they are learning what Israel is about. They are learning how Israel operates, they are starting to question Israels motives, and why Israel continues down its current path of persecution, racism and Apartheid. Why they continue to steal land and build endless settlements, why they continue to act like they do no wrong... its all slowly becoming apparent and visible for all to see.

That's all that's important really... Europe, and the rest of the world is slowly waking up to what Israel in on about, and its not a very nice picture !

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 5):
I don't think Israel need fear too much even if for internal consumption Netanyahu might exaggerate some of the comments.

Israel is becoming increasingly isolated internationally, never more so than now... why ?

Even the US is becoming closer and closer to Iran with negotiations, now its recognizing a new Palestinian/Hamas Government and funding it no-less.

Abbas might say its only a make up of Fatah ministers in the new collection, but make no mistake, the world knows full well Hamas will be involved as well, you'd be naive to think otherwise, no wonder Israel is nervous.

But maybe that's a good thing... ?

[Edited 2014-06-03 02:16:50]

AyostoLeon · Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:16 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 6):
Israel is becoming increasingly isolated internationally, never more so than now... why ?

According to the EU country report series, the average annual increase in trade between the EU and Israel between 2009 and 2013 was 8.8% for imports and 10.2% for exports.

According to the US Office of the United States Trade Representative US exports to Israel in 2013 were $13.7bn, up 526% on the pre-FTA year 1984. Imports from Israel stood at $22.7bn, or up 1,195%. U.S. foreign direct investment (FDI) in Israel (stock) was $10.2 billion in 2012, a 10.1% increase from 2011.

Since Israel and China established diplomatic relations in 1992 two-way trade has increased more than 200-fold, from over $50 million at the beginning of diplomatic relations to more than $10.8 billion in 2013. Recent plans announced by cabinet see that figure doubling over the next few years. Israel is also seeking to increase its trade links with India and countries in Africa. Over the last decade Israel has emerged as the second largest partner in bilateral arms trade with India, behind Russia, with over $10bn in trade.

The Israeli Ministry for Tourism shows the number of visitors to Israel staying for more than one day increased in 2013 by 3.5% over 2012. The largest sources of visitors after the US are France, the United Kingdom and Germany. Tourism accounts for about 6% of employment in Israel and no doubt workers in that sector appreciate the growing interest in Israel.

These figures do not suggest that Israel is becoming increasingly isolated. Do not confuse opinion leaders in newspapers or votes at the UN with a fall in support where it matters - trade and investment.

[Edited 2014-06-03 03:18:55]

Aesma · Tue Jun 03, 2014 10:36 am

Personally I don't believe what the US, EU or any other country does matter. It's up to the Israelis to figure out how they want to go down in history.

Dreadnought · Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:42 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 4):
The US position is the most important here, and its changing... nothing else. What Bibi says is really "insignificant" if he's and is treacherous Government lost/loosing support from the West and Europe... lets wait and see what happens.

Keep dreaming. Peace between Israel and the Palestinians depends on those two - nobody else. And I don't think it will ever come until the Palestinians stop putting so much weight on their religion. They have to give up the genocidal propaganda against Jews that they teach their children, and accept that historically Jerusalem is a Jewish city and that Islam's claim to it as their is bogus. Islam has made something of a habit of claiming other people's cultural icons and claiming them for itself, the Kaaba Stone, for example, and Jerusalem for another.

N537FX · Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:19 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 2):

According to the Times of Israel
“We’re ready to share this small land,” he said, saying he was even willing to leave his home at the West Bank settlement of Nokdim should there be hope of a guaranteed negotiated resolution to the conflict.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/liberma...tical-peace-talks-will-bear-fruit/

TheCommodore · Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:26 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 7):
These figures do not suggest that Israel is becoming increasingly isolated.

I am talking about "international sentiment" towards the Palestinians and the plight they face with neighbors like Israel.

Not % of trade with other countries. Countries that currently trade etc with Israel, do so because it suits them "at that time"
so it can just as easily "not suit them" if Israel pushes things to far or takes a wrong step.

European sentiment towards Israel.... changing

US sentiment towards Israel.... changing

China's sentiment towards Israel...... changing

Call it what you will, I don't care.... But one thing is for sure blind support for Israel is no longer unconditional like it used to be in the glory days of "Israel can do no wrong"

And on the surface of it, things are changing, Yes even with China !

"Today, however, it is China's interest in improving its image in the Muslim world as well as its "long-term desire" to obtain strategic parity with the United States that encourage China to lend its backing to the PA attempt to gain recognition in the UN."

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...n/2011/09/2011928163950390354.html

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
Keep dreaming.

A dream that could soon become a reality

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
They have to give up the genocidal propaganda against Jews that they teach their children, and accept that historically Jerusalem is a Jewish city and that Islam's claim to it as their is bogus. Islam has made something of a habit of claiming other people's cultural icons and claiming them for itself, the Kaaba Stone, for example, and Jerusalem for another.

So... again its all up to the Palestinians and no onus of responsibility on Israels part too ?

C'on, It takes two to tango, you know that !

Quoting N537FX (Reply 10):
“We’re ready to share this small land,” he said, saying he was even willing to leave his home at the West Bank settlement of Nokdim should there be hope of a guaranteed negotiated resolution to the conflict.

Empty words I am afraid.......

Leiberman knows full well, he even states it in the article, that the peace talks will go no where.

So no, Mr & Mrs Leiberman will not have to call the removalist's next week, they wont be moving anywhere !

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 11):

TheCommodore · Wed Jun 04, 2014 3:32 am

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 13):
What? All of them?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant that the state of Israel has been too greedy...

Well....I cant speak for him, but we are talking about Israel here, not Jew's in particular.

So yes, I guess he means Israel is too greedy.

jetblueguy22 · Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:08 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
I am talking about "international sentiment" towards the Palestinians and the plight they face with neighbors like Israel.

That is not what determines isolation. Isolation is all about lack of funds. Money is king and they and their trade partners are making it hand over fist. Hardly isolated.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
US sentiment towards Israel.... changing

I completely disagree. We are split on the leadership level as we have been for years. The US has always been a strong supporter of an IsraelI state. We want peace as much as anybody. But there are two greedy sides who want all or nothing. So who is the US going to pick? The trade partner who brings in billions in not only tech and pharmaceutical trade but defense spending, or a settlement whose leadership has questionable ties. Kind of a no brainer if you ask me.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
China's sentiment towards Israel...... changing

The Chinese government will be friendly with whoever then can make money off of.

Unless Obama pulls some miracle ala the TV series "The West Wing" we are going to have the same situation we've had for years.
Pat

TheCommodore · Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:04 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 13):
That is not what determines isolation.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 13):
I completely disagree.

Read this article, and then tell me if you think any of it is true in "terms" of what I was saying about "International isolation"

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article4021995.ece

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 13):
Unless Obama pulls some miracle ala the TV series "The West Wing" we are going to have the same situation we've had for years.

Palestine has progressed very well, both at the UN and its standing within the international community at large, in fact, I don't think things have ever looked so positive for them.....

All the while, Israels allies have been strangely quiet, and have not leapt to her defense perhaps as fast as the did in the past.

To me, that indicates some sort of Isolation, some sort of ignoring of Israel ?

Nothing to do with "The West Wing" unfortunately (I was a big fan of the show)

Its been over for years at least 8 years now

MD11Engineer · Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:25 am

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 3):
The US position remains that it will not recognise a Government made up of, including or unduly influenced by Hamas. Of course there are some politicians in the US who have demanded that funding be suspended.

There is a very simple choice: Either the West (and this means mainly the US) fund and support the Palaesintian government or radicals from Saudi Arabia will do so. In the fist option the West still maintains some moderating influence.

Jan

blueflyer · Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:32 am

I think Israel's main issue with the unity government is that the Palestinian factions are again united. When Hamas and the PLO were each controlling a part of the Palestinian territories, it was a perfect "divide and conquer" scenario for Israel. Hamas does have a history of being a terrorist organization, but I have no doubt that Israel would have found ways to oppose a rapprochement between any two factions, no matter how peaceful they might be.

Demands that Hamas, not just the Palestinian government, must commit to a number of conditions are no more than the usual double standard. When was the last time a member of Congress demanded that every Israeli coalition party commits to a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders before the US recognizes the government?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15):
Either the West (and this means mainly the US) fund and support the Palaesintian government or radicals from Saudi Arabia will do so. In the fist option the West still maintains some moderating influence.

There is no doubt that the status quo is beneficial to Israel. Any advancement towards peace is a threat to the current government, any extensive US and/or European disengagement (however little they may be engaged) is a gap that will be filled by extremists funded by very deep pockets.

sfbdude · Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:01 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):

Like I said, somewhat in my deleted post, it doesn't matter what anyone claims that land to be based on something from thousands of years ago.. What's important is that israel is trying to make this land jewish only, or at least have people acknowledge that it belongs to the jews, while completely disregarding the people who have lived there for many generations. The fact that people are OK with that twisted mentality is sickening.

AyostoLeon · Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:16 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
"international sentiment"

So if international sentiment is not measured in terms of governmental responses, if not in terms of trade and investments and not in terms of increasing numbers of visitors, how exactly is international sentiment measured?

And how is sentiment effective if it does not lead to a distancing by governments, a reduction in trade and investment or a fall in the number of visitors? It is insubstantial and may even be ephemeral.

In Australia we see that there is a move the other way. Senator George Brandis, the Attorney General, speaking on behalf of the Foreign Affairs Minister Julie Bishop, believes that it is "inappropriate" to use the term "occupied" in relation to both East Jerusalem and other areas under "negotiation". Julie Bishop herself has questioned which international law has declared Israeli settlements as illegal. See http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...drops-occupied-israeli-settlements for more details.

This is a move from the earlier position of unconditional support for Israel while arguing for a halt to expansion in line with UN resolutions. The former Foreign Affairs Minister Bob Carr was a vocal opponent of settlements because he believed they were an obstacle to a future Palestinian State and a lasting peace agreement. It was Carr who persuaded Julie Gillard that rather than voting against, Australia should abstain on the question of Statehood for Palestine in the UN General Assembly. Had the present members been in Government then it is highly likely that Australia would have opposed recognition of the State of Palestine, as Gillard herself had wanted to.

In another thread you argued that Israel's Jews are responsible for the impasse because they had voted for the present government. Do you not apply the same approach to Australians? Australians voted for Abbott and his party so, by your own argument, sentiment in Australia is not shifting away from support for Israel.

TheCommodore · Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:25 am

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 18):
So if international sentiment is not measured in terms of governmental responses, if not in terms of trade and investments and not in terms of increasing numbers of visitors, how exactly is international sentiment measured?

You are right, these are things that measure "sentiment". but I am not sure where you think I don't think sentiment is Not measured by Gov responses, cause it is, just depends how they respond or, as the case may be, don't respond !

But its somewhat more complicated than just what you mention, Governments make "statements and comments" intentionally, about certain events, especially in regards to the advancement of the Israel/Palestine peace negotiations, or, should I say, lack of advancement. It may not have anything to do with "trade or investments or visitor numbers" necessarily.

I have found over the last while, previous staunch allies of Israel strangely silent, when normally they would have had something to say in regards to Israels defence, regardless of Israels position, on whatever it was the occurred. There just seems to be a more focused approached towards Palestine and what they want to achieve through the UN etc..

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 18):
Do you not apply the same approach to Australians?

Absolutely I do, and it is very disappointing to see Australia, apparently reverse its previous stance in the UN...?

I believe the Government (Australia) has also been silent on this "new" policy or direction, and Julie Bishop has been far from clear yet on this matter, one way or the other.... don't know why, but it is frustrating when the games are played.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 18):
Australians voted for Abbott and his party so, by your own argument, sentiment in Australia is not shifting away from support for Israel.

Australians, when they voted for a Liberal/National coalition at the last election, were not told about this apparent "U" turn in Government policy unfortuantaly. I wonder if they were, whether the landslide in numbers would have been as good for then as it was ???

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 18):
The former Foreign Affairs Minister Bob Carr was a vocal opponent of settlements because he believed they were an obstacle to a future Palestinian State and a lasting peace agreement.

And he didn't only mention that....

He was also VERY vocal in his opinion of the Jewish Lobby, and the access and influence they had over senior Cabinet Ministers, including the Prime Minister.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...the-influence-of-the-zionist-lobby

QANTAS077 · Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:40 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
And he didn't only mention that....

He was also VERY vocal in his opinion of the Jewish Lobby, and the access and influence they had over senior Cabinet Ministers, including the Prime Minister.

read his book...it goes in depth about this murky Jewish lobby that exists down here in Melbourne. Brandis has gone even further to the right by removing the word "Occupation/Occupied" from the government vocab when it comes to talking about settlements, East Jerusalem, et al.

AyostoLeon · Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:18 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
were not told

Really? Australia's newspapers and television carried discussion and interviews with Abbott. When Australia abstained on the question of recognition, Abbott rounded on Gillard, asking her why she lacked the courage of her convictions. He went on to say that the Coalition would never extend recognition until the Palestinians unequivocally renounced violence and recognised Israel.

Since the election, Australia has made its support for Israel clearer. It has abstained or voted against resolutions condemning or calling for a halt to settlements. Sure, they have not shouted this from the rooftops (it was certainly reported on in the media) but they made it clear that they would revert to the position adopted under Howard and Downer. To say Australians were not told is a bit disingenuous.

As to whether Australians would still have voted for the coalition, I suspect so because Australians, like Israelis, cast their votes on which party overall expresses their needs, opinions or hopes, rather than just on a single issue.

TheCommodore · Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:37 am

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 21):
Really?

I think so. It was far from being made clear on how Australia would go with voting on anything to do with Israel during the election campaign if the won office .

In fact, I don't remember seeing or hearing anything from Abbott regarding Israel during the campaign. I may be wrong, and if there was something reported, it certainly was not reported widely in the media to my knowledge

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 21):
To say Australians were not told is a bit disingenuous.

I was referring to not being told during the election campaign, not after they were elected into office.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 21):
As to whether Australians would still have voted for the coalition, I suspect so because Australians, like Israelis, cast their votes on which party overall expresses their needs, opinions or hopes, rather than just on a single issue.

No body is arguing that... But, as I said, I can't recall Abbott expressing his position on Israel, and stating that he would change the vote from abstain to against in the UN, during his interviews in the election leed up.

Cadet985 · Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:44 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
Don't the Israeli people want PEACE !

No peace with a people who are stupid enough to have a government that is comprised of terrorists. Kill them all, I say.

Marc

DeltaMD90 · Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:51 pm

Quoting cadet985 (Reply 23):
No peace with a people who are stupid enough to have a government that is comprised of terrorists. Kill them all, I say.

Well, thanks for being honest I guess. I hope no one takes you to court for terrorism

Luckily, most Israelis, while maybe disagreeing with me on many issues, are way more moral than "kill them all." Disgusting bro

TheCommodore · Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:58 pm

Quoting cadet985 (Reply 23):
No peace with a people who are stupid enough to have a government that is comprised of terrorists. Kill them all, I say.

Are you talking about the Israeli Government ?

If so, I fully agree... kill em all !

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 24):
Luckily, most Israelis, while maybe disagreeing with me on many issues, are way more moral than "kill them all." Disgusting bro

Unfortunately, you can expect such comments from this wally !

Cadet985 · Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:01 pm

No Commodore -

The Palestinian Government is made up completely of terrorists, which you'd be able to comprehend if you read an intelligent piece of news in your life.

pvjin · Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:42 pm

Quoting cadet985 (Reply 26):
The Palestinian Government is made up completely of terrorists, which you'd be able to comprehend if you read an intelligent piece of news in your life.

As long as they condemn killing civilians they are not terrorists. One could just nuke the entire IDF and that would be an act of war, not an act of terrorism.

If we look at the wiki (yes, I know, a great source and all but I'm lazy):

"Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts that are intended to create fear (terror); are perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal; and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (e.g., neutral military personnel or civilians)"

Acts of violence against active military targets are not terrorism. As far as I know Palestinian government doesn't support attacks against civilians, something that can be actually called terrorism.

TheCommodore · Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:59 pm

Quoting cadet985 (Reply 26):
No Commodore -

Yes sir, yes sir... three bags full !

In my humble opinion, you could say the same about the Israeli Government. All terrorist... the lot of em Wow!

How many people has the Israeli Government sanctioned with assassinations of individuals, in other sovereign nations, using "stolen" passports etc.....?

Israel appears to be very good when it comes to stealing and taking things that are not theirs.......

Why is that ?

Disgusting behavior

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