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AA7295
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Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:18 am

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ainst-obama-over-executive-orders/

When will the madness end? I like the part where Boehner was asked which specific executive orders he was planning to object to, his response, "When I find out, I'll let you know".

You can also watch Michelle Bachmann here commenting after the announcement of the lawsuit that "they" plan on defunding the Executive Branch. http://egbertowillies.com/2014/06/25...news-neil-cavuto-michele-bachmann/

Discuss:

[Edited 2014-06-25 19:31:10]
 
LittleFokker
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:23 am

America...if you can't beat 'em, sue 'em!

The party of no ideas strikes again.
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seb146
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:08 am

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
When will the madness end?

When anyone to the left of the tea people are banned from holding office and voting. Then, their utopia can begin. I see the subtext all the time, and it is frightening.

So, instead of actually doing anything to help immigrants or the poor or lowering the debt and deficit or fixing the VA, they want to sue for something that every other president has done and has done more often?
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casinterest
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:09 am

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):

I can't wait to see the lawsuit. Boehner may just lose this election for the GOP yet.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
bchandl
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:44 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 3):

Won't happen.

Even Chris Matthews, king of the lunatic left, knows the Senate will be red in November.

http://redalertpolitics.com/2014/02/...likely-to-lose-senate-in-november/

Boehner can do what he wants because the majority of the turnout in November will be Republican voters.

Midterms for the second term of the party occupying the White House is traditionally extremely bad turnout.

Combine that with the fact Barack has been a lame duck for a year already....

I'd say I can't wait to be a part of it, but any democrat running in a statewide Alabama election needs mental care, asap.

They're toast.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:52 am

[quote=bchandl,reply=4]Won't happen.

Perhaps not, and that is why I said Boehner could lose it yet. The biggest issue the GOP faces is making themselves irrelevant with over the top rhetoric.
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bchandl
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:02 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 5):
Perhaps not, and that is why I said Boehner could lose it yet. The biggest issue the GOP faces is making themselves irrelevant with over the top rhetoric.

It's called energizing the base. They're doing it intentionally, to get more of their base worked up and to the polls, it helps them.

Both parties do it.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:09 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 6):
It's called energizing the base. They're doing it intentionally, to get more of their base worked up and to the polls, it helps them.

Both parties do it.

I know it and I understand it, but there is a point of discontent. The evangelical base can't be too happy watching all the recent litigation news turn against them, and a good portion of that group may start say to hell with voting. The same could be said of the folks that have watched the Government screw over the VA and the taxpayers.

However the end of the day, someone has to answer to the constituent, and I am not sure the GOP has figured out how to lead again instead of just complain.
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DocLightning
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:53 am

Suing the President for doing his job. I hope that the President counter-sues Mr. Boehner personally for the legal fees to the American taxpayer. Frivolous lawsuits drive me bonkers.
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bchandl
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:17 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):

Suing the President for doing his job. I hope that the President counter-sues Mr. Boehner personally for the legal fees to the American taxpayer. Frivolous lawsuits drive me bonkers.

Ohhh boy, do I love misplaced anger and ignorance of the subject...

If he was going to use government lawyers, they would be in the Attorney General's office but he is obviously not going to accept that as his main role is to litigate and advise on behalf of the president. So Obviously, that's not going to happen.

He will hire an outside law firm and donors will cover the bills.

And here is the irony....

You don't like a (Republican) Congressman suing the (Democratic) President... calling it a "waste of tax payer money", which it wouldn't be because he wouldn't be using government resources to litigate on his behalf....

BUT BUT BUT....

You want the president (Democrat) to use to AG's office (his lawyer) to sue the (Republican) Congressman.

As if the counter suit is better than the original suit.

Pathetic.

[Edited 2014-06-25 23:19:59]
 
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seb146
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:54 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 4):
Combine that with the fact Barack has been a lame duck for a year already

Because the right wing refuses to do anything on anything! All because they want their way or the highway. They refuse to negotiate. But, let's blame Obama.
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:23 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):
Because the right wing refuses to do anything on anything! All because they want their way or the highway. They refuse to negotiate. But, let's blame Obama.

I love the latest distortion of facts - that "we (the USA) had this war (Iraq) won" and Obama went and lost it by withdrawing the troops. But it was Bush who signed the Status Of Forces agreement in 2008 that said all US military presence, not just combat troops, all of it, would be gone by 2011. And if breaching that agreement and keeping troops there was what it took to "win" (I have no idea what a victory in Iraq would look like, especially since those prosecuting the war never really stated what it's aim was), isn't it like, to quote Jon Stewart, like saying to claim your winnings in a casino, you have to go and live there forever?

Nonetheless, a lot of gullible rubes will believe this twisting of the facts - Obama lost the Iraq war! I don't think the Republicans care about the consequences of what they say and do (indeed the Iraq war is a perfect example of that) but once again this is a very dangerous lie.
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:59 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 6):
It's called energizing the base. They're doing it intentionally, to get more of their base worked up and to the polls, it helps them.

My guess is that Boehner is doing this in a bid to hold onto his job come 2015.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):
Because the right wing refuses to do anything on anything! All because they want their way or the highway. They refuse to negotiate. But, let's blame Obama.

If that is the case, why isn't this great president, a uniter, moving closer to the middle in order to sway some of the wavering members of the GOP to his side. Recall, just about any move the president has made toward the middle was to sway members of HIS party to vote for his junk.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Suing the President for doing his job.

The president's job is not to circumvent the will of The Congress. When a president can not bend The Congress to his will, he must move closer to The Congress in his will or accept the fact that he is a lame duck and ineffectual. To crank out executive orders,push out regulations and/or selectively implement/enforce standing legislation is to push the limits of, or exceed, his Article II powers and infringes on the Article I powers of The Congress.
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:25 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 4):
Even Chris Matthews, king of the lunatic left, knows the Senate will be red in November.

IF it goes red, it'll be just barely red. And come 2016 there's a good chance it'll turn back blue.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
If that is the case, why isn't this great president, a uniter, moving closer to the middle in order to sway some of the wavering members of the GOP to his side.

I remember members of a certain party who got together and agreed to oppose anything Obama offers. So how can a president actually get closer to his GOP counterparts if said counterparts are not even willing to negotiate and compromise, all in the name of denying him success?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
The president's job is not to circumvent the will of The Congress.

It is not Congress's job to continually remain gridlocked. We talk about a lame duck president, but Congress has been lame duck since Republicans came to power in the House.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
To crank out executive orders,push out regulations and/or selectively implement/enforce standing legislation is to push the limits of, or exceed, his Article II powers and infringes on the Article I powers of The Congress.

He's actually in charge of the Executive Branch and Executive Orders are a power reserved for him, and he can operate the agencies under his branch as he wishes. Since Congress won't get off its butt and do something meaningful, how is Obama supposed to faithfully execute the laws if there are no laws in the first place?

To me, Congress and Obama remind me of this:


with Obama being Charlie Brown and Congress (Republicans) being Lucy.
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us330
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:33 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
I like the part where Boehner was asked which specific executive orders he was planning to object to, his response, "When I find out, I'll let you know"

It's an election year, thus this comment:

Quoting bchandl (Reply 6):
It's called energizing the base. They're doing it intentionally, to get more of their base worked up and to the polls, it helps them

is dead on.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
I hope that the President counter-sues Mr. Boehner personally for the legal fees to the American taxpayer.

Boehner hasn't sued him yet, and the government doesn't typically hire outside counsel to fight its own battles. The White House has its own counsel's office with salaried lawyers on staff.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
To crank out executive orders,push out regulations and/or selectively implement/enforce standing legislation is to push the limits of, or exceed, his Article II powers and infringes on the Article I powers of The Congress.

All presidents do it, and the numbers need to be placed in context. Obama has issued less executive orders than almost all of his predecessors other than George H.W. Bush, going as far back as the Hoover presidency. As of 6/6/2014, he's only issued 180 executive orders. George W. Bush issued 291 (256 after 6 years), Clinton issued 364 (311 after six years), George H.W. Bush issued 166 (over a 4 year term--so he was on pace to exceed Obama), Ronald Reagan issued 380, and Carter issued over 300 (in just 4 years).
 
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:35 pm

Quoting aa7295 (Thread starter):
You can also watch Michelle Bachmann here commenting after the announcement of the lawsuit that "they" plan on defunding the Executive Branch. http://egbertowillies.com/2014/06/25...mann/

Considering Ms. Bachmann has less than 6 months on the job I'm curious how she plans to do that.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 13):
He's actually in charge of the Executive Branch and Executive Orders are a power reserved for him, and he can operate the agencies under his branch as he wishes. Since Congress won't get off its butt and do something meaningful, how is Obama supposed to faithfully execute the laws if there are no laws in the first place?

Never mind that Obama has the lowest rate of executive orders per day since Grover Cleveland.
This sums it up nicely: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...xecutive-orders-or-not-in-1-chart/
 
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:48 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 13):
Executive Orders are a power reserved for him,

Just out of curiosity: where, exactly in the US Constitution are executive orders reserved for the president? Let me save you a moment...it isn't in there. The power is inferred in Article II.

I'm not opposed to the use of executive orders. I believe that they are a necessary part of The Executive. I am opposed to their use when used to circumvent the will of The Congress.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 13):
Since Congress won't get off its butt and do something meaningful, how is Obama supposed to faithfully execute the laws if there are no laws in the first place?

He is supposed to move towards The Congress, not work against them. We have seperation of powers for a reason. Just because the president wills it, does not mean it has to be so. The Congress has to concur in that will. The president can not just impose his will via executive order or regulation if The Congress refuses to act.

Can you imagine if President Bush had, via executive order and regulation, directed the SSA to implement the reforms he wanted after congress refused him?

How are the proposed EPA regulations any different? Or the selective implementation, through executive discretion, of the failed DREAM ACT?
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ImperialEagle
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:05 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 4):
Chris Matthews, king of the lunatic left
Quoting bchandl (Reply 9):
here is the irony....

You don't like a (Republican) Congressman suing the (Democratic) President... calling it a "waste of tax payer money", which it wouldn't be because he wouldn't be using government resources to litigate on his behalf....

BUT BUT BUT....

You want the president (Democrat) to use to AG's office (his lawyer) to sue the (Republican) Congressman.

As if the counter suit is better than the original suit.

Pathetic.

THANK YOU!   

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
why isn't this great president, a uniter, moving closer to the middle in order to sway some of the wavering members of the GOP to his side

Because he is 100% politician and 0% Statesman.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
where, exactly in the US Constitution are executive orders reserved for the president? Let me save you a moment...it isn't in there. The power is inferred in Article II.

  

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
I am opposed to their use when used to circumvent the will of The Congress.

  

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
He is supposed to move towards The Congress, not work against them. We have seperation of powers for a reason. Just because the president wills it, does not mean it has to be so. The Congress has to concur in that will. The president can not just impose his will via executive order or regulation if The Congress refuses to act.

He does not know how to work with the other side nor does he poses any inclination to do so. It's his way or nothing. Typical of today's closed-minded liberals.

In any event, I tend to believe this is Boehner playing politics.

Interesting discussion from Fox News:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/364272012...t-against-obama-set/#sp=show-clips

[Edited 2014-06-26 06:25:11]
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:11 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 14):
Obama has issued less executive orders than almost all of his predecessors other than George H.W. Bush,

That is part of the problem. He doesn't bother with executive orders. His people just go out and do things.

It is time for a major new constitutional amendment. No government regulation, issued by the executive branch, shall be binding unless ratified by Congress. If the EPA decides to define your fishpond in your back yard as "navigable" and therefore under their control, Congress has to sign off on it. The shadow government must stop.
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Mir
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:16 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
I'm not opposed to the use of executive orders. I believe that they are a necessary part of The Executive. I am opposed to their use when used to circumvent the will of The Congress.

Nothing in those executive orders is contrary to any laws that Congress has passed. If Congress wants to stop Obama from doing something, they can pass a law that says he can't do it.

-Mir
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fr8mech
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:42 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
Nothing in those executive orders is contrary to any laws that Congress has passed. If Congress wants to stop Obama from doing something, they can pass a law that says he can't do it.

So, what you're saying is the president can do whatever he wants and it's up to The Congress to stop him? Really? That's the way you think this is supposed to work?

Let's look at the DREAM Act. Congress shot that down. The president decided he will selectively enforce the current law by ordering the affected agencies to ignore the releveant sections of the USC; thereby implementing portions of the DREAM Act. Are you saying that The Congress should have passed the anti-DREAM Act in order to prevent the president from doing what he has done?

What about these proposed EPA regulations? Should congress pass have passed the anti-Cap & Trade act?

Rubbish.


Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):
In any event, I tend to believe this is Boehner playing politics.

  
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
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fr8mech
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:16 pm

Apparently, the Supreme Court does think that President Obama exceeded his Constitutional authority in one area:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...resident-recess-appointment-power/

The Court is unanimous in its decision.

Oh, and I remembered another area where the administratin is acting against the will of congress:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/v.../2014/05/24/operation-choke-point/
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
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Mir
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:24 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
The president decided he will selectively enforce the current law by ordering the affected agencies to ignore the releveant sections of the USC

Which, as the person responsible for executing the laws, he has the ability to do, unless the law states that certain provisions must be enforced (as opposed to may be enforced). The alternative is to say that unless every person who ever breaks a law is punished, the executive branch is not fulfilling its obligations. I don't think you want to live in that sort of country.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
Are you saying that The Congress should have passed the anti-DREAM Act in order to prevent the president from doing what he has done?

If they want to remove the option, they can certainly amend the law to require specific enforcement instead of leaving it to executive discretion.

-Mir
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fr8mech
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:06 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
Which, as the person responsible for executing the laws, he has the ability to do, unless the law states that certain provisions must be enforced (as opposed to may be enforced).

Interesting. So, in your opinion, the enforcer of a law, e.g. president, governor, police officer, etc., should have a wide discretion as to what laws should be enforced, how they should be enforced and whether or not someone should be punished if they break that law?

Just to expand, you would be ok if an administration, any administration, decided to not enforce the provisions of 18USC922 and the regulations surrounding ATF4473? I mean, the folks on your side of the political spectrum believe that those provisions are largely ineffective and don't go far enough and those on our side of the political divide feel that the administration is already ignoring the enforcement of violations.

A law that can not or will not be enforced needs to be repealed or amended.

Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
I don't think you want to live in that sort of country.

I want to live in a country of laws. A country where the laws are respected by the leadership and the people. When the leadership flouts the law or becomes inconsistent in its interpretation or enforcement of that law, respect is lost for the law and the insititution of the law.

Do you want to live in a country where the executive can, not only decide what the law is, but whether or not to enforce that law? Or worse, enforce it in an arbitrary and capricious manner.

I don't think you want to live in that sort of country, do you?
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
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DocLightning
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:12 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 9):

You don't like a (Republican) Congressman suing the (Democratic) President... calling it a "waste of tax payer money", which it wouldn't be because he wouldn't be using government resources to litigate on his behalf....

No, I don't like a Speaker who has refused to pass any meaningful legislation, has done everything possible to sabotage the Presidency for political gain, who repeatedly refuses to negotiate, and then tries to sue the President for using his Presidential powers as laid out in the Constitution.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 20):
So, what you're saying is the president can do whatever he wants and it's up to The Congress to stop him? Really? That's the way you think this is supposed to work?

No, he did not say that. Now, I want you to do yourself a favor: read the Constitution. The whole thing. The powers of the President are carefully laid out.

And let's not forget that Mr. Obama is a former professor of Constitutional law. It might just be possible that he knows more about the Constitution than you do, and certainly more than just about anyone in the GOP to go by the absurd things I've heard them say lately.
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fr8mech
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:05 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
And let's not forget that Mr. Obama is a former professor of Constitutional law.

There's an old saying: Those that can't do, teach.

But, that's not fair. Everyone's interpretation of The Constitution is informed by and colored by their ideology. What I read into The Constitution may not be what you read into it, nor what Mr. Obama or Chief Justice Roberts reads into it. Just because he says that's what he thinks it means does not mean that's what it means. In our system, the Supreme Court decides what The Constitution means...and they tend to change their collective minds every now and again.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
I want you to do yourself a favor: read the Constitution

I've read every bit of it. Which bit tells us that the president can ignore the law or enforce it selectively? Would that be Article II, Section 3? Where he can recommend a course af action to congress? Or, where he "shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed"?

Maybe, it's in Article I, Section 1. That's a short section: "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States". Hmmm, don't see anything there that says he can do what he wants when he can't bend congress to his will.

How about Article I, Section 7? That one talks about presidential powers. Nope. not there...it talks about, among other things, how The Congress can tell him to take a hike if he doesn't like what they've sent to his desk.

Doc, I'm no constitutional scholar, but I have read the thing and have a fairly decent grasp of it. I feel the president exceedes his powers when he uses his authority to promlugate regulation or when he pens an executive order or when he decides to 'tweak' a law in contradiction to what congress has passed or failed to pass.

And, to tell you the truth, I don't care whether the president is a Democrat or Republican, nor the political make-up of The Congress. The president can not exceed his authority no more than congress should be allowed to.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
No, he did not say that

Yes, he did:

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
If Congress wants to stop Obama from doing something, they can pass a law that says he can't do it.


[Edited 2014-06-26 10:07:36]
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:11 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
Which, as the person responsible for executing the laws, he has the ability to do, unless the law states that certain provisions must be enforced (as opposed to may be enforced).

Uh... no. All laws, by default, MUST be enforced, unless there is specific language in the law that makes something optional.

That's why they call it a "law", rather than "suggestion".
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seb146
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:41 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
Recall, just about any move the president has made toward the middle was to sway members of HIS party to vote for his junk.

And he has. Recall that, when debating ACA, Democrats with Obama have given up many points. Recall that, at one negotiation, Boehner said "We got 99% of what we wanted..." Democrats have tried to get anything done but the right refuses because of their made up scandal of the week.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
The president's job is not to circumvent the will of The Congress
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
The power is inferred in Article II.

Why has this same power been acceptable and even applauded for decades? Why this president now? Especially considering Republican controlled Congress refuses to do anything but hold endless investigations on non-scandals?

Seems to me the "will of Congress" in this term seems to be to do nothing. So, what I am hearing is: Republicans in Congress don't want Obama to do anything either. That would be great for them. Republicans in Congress could then say "Why isn't this president doing anything?" There is no pleasing those people.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
bchandl
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:44 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):
Because the right wing refuses to do anything on anything! All because they want their way or the highway. They refuse to negotiate. But, let's blame Obama.

Where has Obama negotiated? Where?

He is telling the House what needs to be done, how it needs to be done and when they disagree because it's partisan BS he then runs to his lap dog media and tattles "Look they aren't helping me out"

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 13):
IF it goes red, it'll be just barely red. And come 2016 there's a good chance it'll turn back blue.

It's barely blue now. it will be barely red for a few years come November.

My favorite part is 2016... you have no idea, but you are willing to assert it.

Who will lose? Who is running against them to make them lose? You have no idea, yet you assert your reality as fact. Just lovely.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
No, he did not say that. Now, I want you to do yourself a favor: read the Constitution. The whole thing. The powers of the President are carefully laid out.

Yes, yes he did.

Btw, the part about the Constitution, that should be told to Barack.

Anyways, right here is where he said it.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
If Congress wants to stop Obama from doing something, they can pass a law that says he can't do it.

bchandl
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 28):
My favorite part is 2016... you have no idea, but you are willing to assert it.

Who will lose? Who is running against them to make them lose? You have no idea, yet you assert your reality as fact. Just lovely.

There's one thing that makes 2016 different. In 2010, Republicans made big gains in both the House and Senate. Many swing states elected Republican senators out of what is widely considered public outrage against Obama and the Democrats. But in 2016, what will the talking point be? Obama is no longer on the ballot and what will the swing state freshmen senators of 2010 have on their record other than obstruction?
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mham001
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:09 pm

I don't understand why the left here is rushing to defend Obama when he just got spanked this morning by the Supremes for overreaching his executive powers. This would not have happened without a "lawsuit", they happen all the time, there would be no ruling without a lawsuit.
 
bchandl
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:24 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 29):
There's one thing that makes 2016 different. In 2010, Republicans made big gains in both the House and Senate. Many swing states elected Republican senators out of what is widely considered public outrage against Obama and the Democrats. But in 2016, what will the talking point be? Obama is no longer on the ballot and what will the swing state freshmen senators of 2010 have on their record other than obstruction?

The idea that incumbents are incredibly hard to defeat.

Also, when it comes to the house the Republicans will hold it for a very long time.

Republicans surged in 2010 in both national and state legislatures. This meant when it came time to redraw districts, they had all the power. The house will be red until 2020 at least.

The Senate Dems who are at risk are seats that are being vacated for retirements and democrats who were "moderate" who won in 2008 with Obama after Bush. They were elected in red states because people were upset with Bush.

There is no more Bush to upset them. The Hosue and Senate can simply pass bill after bill in 2014 and watch obama have to veto them. Then he is the party of no.

Win Win.
 
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zckls04
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:01 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
It is time for a major new constitutional amendment. No government regulation, issued by the executive branch, shall be binding unless ratified by Congress. If the EPA decides to define your fishpond in your back yard as "navigable" and therefore under their control, Congress has to sign off on it. The shadow government must stop.

Oh god, I hope not. There's a reason Congress has a 16% approval rate. That bunch of self-promoting losers being the final arbiter of what gets done is a recipe for disaster.

Executive orders are sometimes necessary to get things done. And I say that having no illusions about one party being more or less obstructive than the other in this climate.
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Maverick623
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:32 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
Suing the President for doing his job.

Indeed, the Executive Order has been (rightfully) held as a legal and important tool of the Presidency.

However, it cannot override actual laws:

"he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed"


By openly refusing to execute certain laws (namely, immigration laws), Obama has indeed violated Article II, Section III of the US Constitution. That it was done by Executive Order is rather moot, because there is no power that allows one to openly disregard the law.
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seb146
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:34 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 33):
By openly refusing to execute certain laws (namely, immigration laws

There have been more deportations under Obama than the previous administration.

But don't let facts get in the way.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...and-obamas-deportation-statistics/

Plus, what has the Republican controlled House done on immigration?
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fr8mech
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:37 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 33):
By openly refusing to execute certain laws (namely, immigration laws), Obama has indeed violated Article II, Section III of the US Constitution. That it was done by Executive Order is rather moot, because there is no power that allows one to openly disregard the law.

I'm not sure it was done by executive order. I believe it's being done via selective or discretionary enforcement of the law. At least, I can't find an executive order. Nonetheless, he is circumventing the will of congress and, by extension, the people.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 32):
Executive orders are sometimes necessary to get things done.

Executive orders should be used for policy statements and to 'grease the skids' for legislation that has passed or is 'sure to pass'.

Like I said, I have no real problem when the executive order is used in the way above, but if the intent is to add, amend or circumvent legislation that belongs in the purview of congress, I, and you, should have a problem with it.
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zckls04
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:20 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 35):
Executive orders should be used for policy statements and to 'grease the skids' for legislation that has passed or is 'sure to pass'.

Like I said, I have no real problem when the executive order is used in the way above, but if the intent is to add, amend or circumvent legislation that belongs in the purview of congress, I, and you, should have a problem with it.

I don't, I have to say. I've always been a fan of action over inaction. Nothing ever gets better if you just obstruct everything. Term limits would be helpful here I think.

What's certain is that the last person who should be complaining about executive orders is Boehner- he's quite the fan of circumventing Congress when it suits him:

https://web.archive.org/web/20081216235535/http://johnboehner.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=72164

https://web.archive.org/web/20090325122340/http://www.johnboehner.house.gov/UploadedFiles/120308DeltaQueenLetter.pdf
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fr8mech
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:24 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 36):
I don't, I have to say. I've always been a fan of action over inaction

So, the end justifies the means? It's ok so long as the goal, whose ever goal it may be, is met? Nope, while I too am a fan of action...in fact, my conference room whiteboard has the words "acta non verba" written in permanent marker on it....I damn well expect my government to follow the rules.


Quoting zckls04 (Reply 36):
Term limits would be helpful here I think.

I agree, but fat chance of that...wait...hold on just one minute..........maybe the president can issue an executive order instituting term limits on members of congress.

That should work, shouldn't it? We are all pretty much agreed that term-limits would be good for the country; so, procedure and rules be damned! Mr. President: write that order because the end always justifies the means.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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zckls04
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:55 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
Mr. President: write that order because the end always justifies the means.

Appeal to extremes, wouldn't you say? I don't always think the end justifies the means- just pointing out that I always prefer the idea of trying things and sometimes failing to never doing anything at all (providing of course the effects of the policy aren't already known).

How often this is necessary depends on the political climate. But if you seriously think Congress has been working well of latet- that the constant obstructionism and endless filibusters are good for the country, or even something that the voters want, I think you're mistaken.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Fri Jun 27, 2014 12:58 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 31):
Republicans surged in 2010 in both national and state legislatures. This meant when it came time to redraw districts, they had all the power. The house will be red until 2020 at least.

I am not arguing against that, though it may be possible that on the 2018 midterms the House majority might be diluted. Redistricting is only helpful until the middle of the year; then, those hardcore red and blue districts take on a slight purplish color. While Republicans will control the House until at least 2020, just how large a majority is yet to be seen.

Quoting bchandl (Reply 31):
There is no more Bush to upset them. The Hosue and Senate can simply pass bill after bill in 2014 and watch obama have to veto them. Then he is the party of no.

And come 2016 there is no more Obama to upset them. So the red senators in states like WI, IL, PA, FL, and OH better be getting ready to defend whatever record they have. The Democrats that come (unless they've worked in the House or were previous senators) will have a clean slate, making it difficult for these senators to liken them to Obama; the incumbent senators, however, will pretty much be likened to the Tea Party (the wave that brought them all to their seats in the first place).
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Mir
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:16 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 23):
So, in your opinion, the enforcer of a law, e.g. president, governor, police officer, etc., should have a wide discretion as to what laws should be enforced, how they should be enforced and whether or not someone should be punished if they break that law?

That's what prosecutorial discretion is.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 23):
Just to expand, you would be ok if an administration, any administration, decided to not enforce the provisions of 18USC922 and the regulations surrounding ATF4473?

If the government decided that it was a poor use of resources to enforce 18 USC 922, that is their call to make, and while I wouldn't like it I would recognize that it's within their authority to exercise prosecutorial discretion. That's not to say that authority is limitless, but that comes down to a case-by-case basis on whether the country is best served by using prosecutorial discretion or not.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 23):
I want to live in a country of laws. A country where the laws are respected by the leadership and the people.

Then we agree. What you're implying by your earlier statements, however, is that what you really want is for the law enforcement mechanism to be powerful enough that it can prosecute not just the significant crimes, but every crime that occurs.

That's nice in theory, but in reality the executive branch must deal with the same problem that everyone else must deal with: how to effectively allocate limited resources to achieve the optimal outcome. Which means setting priorities, and the administration has decided that deporting people who were brought to the US when they were young and have gone to school, worked hard and have no criminal records is not a priority. I agree with them.

Think about what a lack of prosecutorial discretion would look like: the police would be duty-bound to go after any speeding car on the highway, even if they're only breaking the limit by a small amount. Because of a lack of resources, if they do that they'll inevitably miss the really dangerous drivers who are going well over the limit because they're tied up with the someone going 5mph too fast. Thus, you need more police out on the highway to have better coverage. That'll cost the taxpayers a lot of money for virtually no safety benefit, and that's before you get into all the negative side effects of having a huge police force. It's not good government to go after every person who breaks the law with equal zeal. Some fish are bigger than others, and they deserve the attention.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
All laws, by default, MUST be enforced

Good thing the immigration laws make it clear that the executive branch has discretion over who gets deported:

Any alien (including an alien crewman) in and admitted to the United States shall, upon the order of the Attorney General, be removed if the alien is within one or more of the following classes of deportable aliens:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1227

In other words, it's the attorney general's decision as to whether or not to start deportation proceedings against someone. There are various groups of people that the attorney general is bound to start deportation proceedings against (people convicted of violent crimes, for example), but those aren't the people that we're talking about here (and I also agree with that part of the law - get those people out).

-Mir
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:27 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 39):
And come 2016 there is no more Obama to upset them.

Was the 2008 election a referendum on Bush? Yes. In fact he was still in power during the 2008 election.

Just like, wait for it, 2016 will be a referendum on the last two years of Obama, who WILL STILL BE IN OFFICE.
 
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seb146
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:47 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 41):
Was the 2008 election a referendum on Bush? Yes. In fact he was still in power during the 2008 election.

Actually, since he could not be elected again, thankfully, it was a referendum on the policies of the Bush years.

What does that have to do with Boehner planning to sue Obama over something every other president has done? This just proves that Boehner and the Republicans have done nothing for the last two years. I hope the voters wake up and vote accordingly this November.
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zckls04
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:52 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 41):
Was the 2008 election a referendum on Bush? Yes. In fact he was still in power during the 2008 election.

Just like, wait for it, 2016 will be a referendum on the last two years of Obama, who WILL STILL BE IN OFFICE.

I think you're probably right, but that it will be closer than you think. GOP approval ratings are just as low as Democrat approval ratings right now, which was not the case in '08 where there was a clear gap in popularity between the parties.
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bchandl
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:00 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 43):
GOP approval ratings are just as low as Democrat approval ratings right now, which was not the case in '08 where there was a clear gap in popularity between the parties.

Which is why I think winning the Senate (which is pretty much a foregone conclusion) will be key because then they can just fill the president's desk with whatever they want, call them solutions(they might be but this is just hypothetical) and watch him become the party of NO.

Nothing will get done, but boy It will be hilarious to watch him be the role he as vilified and sit there as a 3.5 year lame duck and squirm like a little kid trying to dodge any responsibility for anything.
 
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zckls04
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:11 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 44):
Nothing will get done, but boy It will be hilarious to watch him be the role he as vilified and sit there as a 3.5 year lame duck and squirm like a little kid trying to dodge any responsibility for anything.

This I think is symptomatic of everything that turns me off about the current GOP strategy. Too many games played for political gain, and not enough new ideas about how to improve things for the voters. Nothing gets done, the country suffers, but hey- as long as the president is made to look bad it doesn't matter.

2-year lame ducks are par for the course, and the country survives OK. But having that situation 6 years out of 8- it's hard to see that as being sustainable.
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bchandl
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:32 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 45):
This I think is symptomatic of everything that turns me off about the current GOP strategy. Too many games played for political gain, and not enough new ideas about how to improve things for the voters. Nothing gets done, the country suffers, but hey- as long as the president is made to look bad it doesn't matter.

I get your point, but they will send plenty of bills aimed at helping the country, just not one's Barack will like, so he will chose his beliefs over the benefit of the country and veto them(aka nothing gets done).

They won't look bad, he will.

It's the same game he has been playing with the House, just this time the shoe is on the other foot.
 
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zckls04
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:51 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 46):
I get your point, but they will send plenty of bills aimed at helping the country, just not one's Barack will like, so he will chose his beliefs over the benefit of the country and veto them(aka nothing gets done).

They won't look bad, he will.

As long as they keep focus on trying to enact quality legislation rather than bills specifically designed to be so unacceptable that a veto will be an inevitability, then that strategy may pay off.

But more importantly, both sides have to find a credible candidate. If there's one thing history has definitely taught us, it's that a lot can change during primary season!
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seb146
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:52 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 46):
they will send plenty of bills aimed at helping the country

Like voting 53 times to repeal ACA and their replacement is "let's figure that out later..."? Like ending collective bargaining? Like keeping the minimum wage low? Like doing nothing about immigration?

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 43):
Democrat

Please learn to spell.

Quoting bchandl (Reply 44):
watch him become the party of NO.

Serves them right. Americans have had to deal with the true party of NO for four years! They can get a taste of how absurd they are!!
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FlyPNS1
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RE: Boehner Plans To Sue Obama Over Executive Orders

Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:57 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 46):
I get your point, but they will send plenty of bills aimed at helping the country, just not one's Barack will like,

But unless they get to 60 votes (unlikely), nothing is going to get out of the Senate to even reach Obama's desk.

However, if Boehner somehow manages to file suit, he's setting the Republicans up for a bad precedent. Because the first time a Republican president uses an executive order, he'll get hit with the same thing.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
And, to tell you the truth, I don't care whether the president is a Democrat or Republican, nor the political make-up of The Congress.

But where was all the outrage when Reagan and Bush did the same thing? It was no where to be found.

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