iowaman
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Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:07 am

Due to length I have created part two. Please ensure not to disrespect other users or cause flamebait/harsh language.

Previous thread: Political Ramifications Of MH17 (by RomeoBravo Jul 17 2014 in Non Aviation)
 
tu204
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:07 pm

Quoting AirPacific747:
Russia is supplying all the weapons and are telling these rebels how to act. .

Thats an interesting point you bring up. Would you (or the EU/US for that matter) care to actually back up that claim?
And I would like more proof than some Twitter posts and YouTube videos.
You know, actual proof for once?

So far all we have is State Department Jen Psaki, who I must say is the most incompetent and ill-prepared spokeswoman I have seen in a while make claims with no valid proof.
Speaking of Psaki, if she gets fired from the State Department for incompetence, she should come to Russia, she has become something of a meme and would easily get a job at a comedy club here. 
Quoting ComeAndGo:
These thugs go out, get drunk and then start shooting at civilians in the area doing bets who can kill more.

Just like the National Guard of Ukraine. These guys were literally formed from thugs that destroyed and burned everything in sight in the Maidan.
I have said it before: for there to be any reconciliation and peace in Ukraine, both parties have to admit to their errors and come to terms. As long as the National Guard remains an entity and does whatever they please, there will be no peace. Even once the "hot" part of this war is over, the resent towards Kiev will pull Ukraine apart for what they did and for what they are not answering for.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:40 pm

Quoting penguins (Reply 289):
Is he not entitled to his right to speak his mind. Just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he's wrong. Perhaps you should stick to Bosnian affair. Why are you even commenting in a Russia thread?

Everyone is entitled to his right to speak his mind, i.e., have an opinion, but, to paraphrase someone from thread #1, no one is entitled to create his own set of facts. And that's exactly what ComeAndGo did. What I wrote might have been a bit harsh, but the difference is that I lived what I wrote about, ComeAndGo read or heard about it.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:08 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 1):
Thats an interesting point you bring up. Would you (or the EU/US for that matter) care to actually back up that claim?
And I would like more proof than some Twitter posts and YouTube videos.
You know, actual proof for once?

I'm in the camp that Russia has some influence over the rebels (come on, it's probably pretty obvious) but Russia really isn't at fault for the shootdown, not directly at least. I honestly think Putin should have manned up and instead of politician-ing himself away from it and allowing stupid conspiracy theories to pop up, I think he should have come down on the rebels... said something like Russia has influence but not direct control over the rebels and Russia is going to make heads roll to never allow that happen again.

To me, that would have gained Putin respect because it's pretty clear who did it and nobody wants to hear wishy washy BS

Quoting tu204 (Reply 1):
I have said it before: for there to be any reconciliation and peace in Ukraine, both parties have to admit to their errors and come to terms.

   Exactly, finally someone who gets it. I had an interesting observation early on in the Ukraine conflict: Ukraine and the US aren't blameless and the rebels and Russia aren't blameless either. We are obviously going to fall into our own camps but just acknowledging that my side isn't 100% correct and your side isn't 100% wrong makes a huge difference. Kind of like the Israel/Palestine conflict... hardly any side in any conflict is blameless

Glad to hear you say that tu204... we've had our differences but I respect the fact that you realize that neither side and neither of our governments is blameless
 
tu204
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:32 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Glad to hear you say that tu204... we've had our differences but I respect the fact that you realize that neither side and neither of our governments is blameless

Thanks, but looking at the situation from the side, I don't think our respective governments will come to the same conclusions as you and I.
There was an oppertunity to sit down and talk for all sides months ago. At this time I just don't see such a possibility with the stances that both sides are taking. Unfortunately.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 4):
Since when are there 2 parties?

Since a very long time ago. In the current situation, since about November 2013.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 4):
The Ukraine is not his country and what riot police do to clamp down on protesters is none of the neighboring countries business.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I am talking about.
Maybe so, but why are you directing this statement at my reply?

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 4):
Why should there be some sort of agreement.

Because when you have two sides with different views shooting each other the only way to end the conflict is either to completely irradicate one side with differing views or to have the two parties come to terms with each other.
Something tells me that over a million dead Ukranian citizens isn't the best solution. Maybe sitting down and having a chat might work better?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:51 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 8):
Maybe sitting down and having a chat might work better?

That's not going to happen! That simple. If Putin invades he will have full war with the west.
His Separists are nothing but Russian soldiers pretending to be Ukrainian. This is an invasion of Ukraine. There's nothing to discuss or agree on. Russia gets out or it faces total isolation and / or war. Think Iran.
 
tu204
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:56 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 9):
That's not going to happen! That simple.

Here I agree with you, and thats too bad. For this very reason Ukraine will be torn apart.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 9):
If Putin invades he will have full war with the west.

Huh? Who is talking about an invasion other than yourself?

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 9):
His Separists are nothing but Russian soldiers pretending to be Ukrainian.

Care to back that up with something more than heresay and twitter posts?

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 9):
This is an invasion of Ukraine.

No, it's a civil war fueled by two external factors.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 9):
There's nothing to discuss or agree on.

A very Ukranian approach. Let's just completely discard the other party's points, we are right and everyone else is wrond. This is a major part of the problem.

[Edited 2014-07-28 15:17:08]
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:50 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 10):
Let's just completely discard the other party's points

Like ignoring a signed treaty not to invade Ukraine.

Why don't you turn the table around. How about, let's take Russia. Yes why not. There's plenty of Germans and Americans living there. Why not use this conflict as a stepping stone to rob your Russia from you ?

There's 1.3 Million Koreans living in the greater Los Angeles Area. The largest concentration of Koreans outside Korea. That does not make LA Korean.

Stop dreaming. And that Soviet Army might is long gone. Russia's military is a joke.
 
Scipio
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:58 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 1):
These guys were literally formed from thugs that destroyed and burned everything in sight in the Maidan.

You obviously have not been on or near Maidan since last November. The real thugs that have shown up in Kyiv in the last nine months were the Berkut (granted, not all of them) and the Titushki (thugs hired by the Yanukovich regime to beat up / kill protesters and terrorize the overall population).

What the Maidan protesters did was defend themselves against the escalating violence inflicted upon them by Yanukovych's thugs.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 1):
I have said it before: for there to be any reconciliation and peace in Ukraine, both parties have to admit to their errors and come to terms. As long as the National Guard remains an entity and does whatever they please, there will be no peace. Even once the "hot" part of this war is over, the resent towards Kiev will pull Ukraine apart for what they did and for what they are not answering for.

Again, you obviously don't understand what is going on in Ukraine. People have put their differences aside to unite against what they see as a foreign invasion in the east (and Crimea). Why do you think that Russia needs to keep on sending in non-Ukrainian volunteers and mercenaries?

The answer is very simple: because the rebels cannot find any meaningful numbers of locals who want to join the fight on their side... Remember Strelkov complaining that he could not even get a thousand Ukrainians to join his ranks? Or did that not make it to the Russian media?

People are very grateful to have the National Guard defending them against the foreign thugs that keep on crossing the border from Russia ...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 8):
There was an oppertunity to sit down and talk for all sides months ago.

Except, one side consistently opted for escalation and violence rather than for real talks and meaningful compromises ...

Have you seen Dobkin's [i.e., Yanukovych's nominal successor at the Party of Regions] score at the Presidential elections: 6th place with 3.03 percent of the votes? That should tell you something about how the Ukrainian people see things NOW.

What happened on Maidan and what was revealed after Yanukovych fled has opened people's eyes...

If you need a reminder:

http://open-ua.com/en/kiev_region/mezhigorie/
http://glavred.info/politika/opublik...hikarnogo-doma-pshonki-272208.html

Instead of joining Putin's criticism, harassment, and aggression toward Ukraine, may I suggest that you ask Putin to hold an open house day at his many residences?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 8):
Because when you have two sides with different views shooting each other the only way to end the conflict is either to completely irradicate one side with differing views or to have the two parties come to terms with each other.

How many people with different views are being murdered in government-controlled / liberated territory? And how many in rebel-controlled territory?

Slovyansk is peaceful now, but people are still digging up the bodies of those murdered by the rebels when they were in charge...

Incidentally, the UN issued a report on the human rights situation in Ukraine today:

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Count...s/UA/Ukraine_Report_15July2014.pdf

Quote (from p. 3, footnote 2): Illegal acts committed by the armed groups include abductions, detentions, torture, murder, executions, extortion, and destruction of property.

You may want to read the entire Executive Summary.

I challenge you to come up with any credible evidence of serious abuse by the National Guard.

[Edited 2014-07-28 16:25:26]
 
GDB
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:13 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
nd allowing stupid conspiracy theories to pop up

Well that's Putin's whole mindset, a mix of his genuine belief that the wonderful USSR broke apart due to Western plots and his rabble rousing for domestic political consumption.

So far a lot has been said about how the EU might be more timid on sanctions due to fear of economic damage to themselves.
But guess where Boeing get's over a third of it's titanium from? Russia, no doubt on favourable terms.
They could find alternatives of course, which would take both time and money and might even produce production bottlenecks in the meantime.
Not an argument against sanctions, just don't think only the EU would feel it.

On sanctions, the EU will likely get there to a position the US is happier with, it will however take time, that is the nature of an organisation covering so many nations each with their own concerns and interests.
I'd say given the political deadlock in much of domestic US politics, it's a situation that perhaps there should be more understanding of, even if it is annoying.
Better to take the time and get a consensus on this that have a fragmented reaction, which would re-assure Putin.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:33 pm

According to Der Spiegel

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutsc...d-oligarchen-uneinig-a-983072.html

the German intelligence service, the BND claims there are indications of rising tensions within the various power blocks inside Kremlii and some of them - the oligarchs - are getting fed up with Putin and his neostalinist adventures for which they pay dearly in financial losses. Time to get rid of him?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 10):
Care to back that up with something more than heresay and twitter posts?

It worked that way in Crimea as per KGB midget's own admission about the "little gren men" and thanks to idiots who forgot to remove incriminating license plates.
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:36 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 12):
What the Maidan protesters did was defend themselves against the escalating violence inflicted upon them by Yanukovych's thugs.

Right...   ... by burning people alive in the Trade Unions Building and clubbing those who jumped and were still alive?

Quoting Scipio (Reply 12):
I challenge you to come up with any credible evidence of serious abuse by the National Guard.

  
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
tu204
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:14 am

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 11):
Like ignoring a signed treaty not to invade Ukraine.

A memorendum. Big difference.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 11):
Russia's military is a joke.

Go and talk to the last person who said that. A certain Georgian tie-chewing politician that hangs out somewhere in Kiev too afraid to come home to face the music. He thought the same way as you back in 2008 and then his army won the Tshinval-Tbilisi marathon. That by the way was a single Russian Army unit, an Airborne battalion and a Chechen Interior Forces Battalion.
There was also an Austrian Artist who though the same way...He ended up in much worse shape than Saakashvilli. 
Quoting Scipio (Reply 12):
What the Maidan protesters did was defend themselves against the escalating violence inflicted upon them by Yanukovych's thugs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2aUfBEKt3E
Sure...
Try throwing some flaming coctails at your local police station and see where it gets you.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 12):
Again, you obviously don't understand what is going on in Ukraine. People have put their differences aside to unite against what they see as a foreign invasion in the east (and Crimea).

True, looking for a foreign enemy when your economy is collapsing along with the standards of living of the population is great for easing internal tentions. Lets see what happens when all the flag-waving patriotism dies down.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 12):
People are very grateful to have the National Guard defending them

One man's hero is another man's villain? There are those that are happy the Ukranian forces drove out rebels in some cities and there are those who are not. To say that "everyone" is pleased is nieve and shows you don't have much of an understanding of the situation.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 12):
Except, one side consistently opted for escalation and violence rather than for real talks and meaningful compromi

Not really. If you actually bother to look at what is going on you will see that the rebels were and still are willing to sit down and talk. However ultimatums coming from Kiev aren't the most effective form of negotiation.
"We don't care what you want, disarm and we might not prosecute you" doesn't really show me that you want to talk to end the war.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 12):
Instead of joining Putin's criticism, harassment, and aggression toward Ukraine, may I suggest that you ask Putin to hold an open house day at his many residences?

Before we start tours of the Kremlin, Buchinham Palace and the White House, lets take some tours and see how the current Ukranian politicians are living.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 14):
the German intelligence service

has bigger problems to worry about right now. 
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 14):
the oligarchs

I wouldn't care. They are the only ones hurting from any sanctions. If what you posted is true, I really couldn't care less. Even more good can come from these sanctions if it serves a cause to throw some oligarchs out on the street.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 12):
I challenge you to come up with any credible evidence of serious abuse by the National Guard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKHFgYCbgvI
Lots more, just open your eyes. Both sides are doing some bad things here. Saying that only one is guilty is very nieve.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 12):
Why do you think that Russia needs to keep on sending in non-Ukrainian volunteers and mercenaries?

Care to back that up?
I am not saying that there are no Russian citizens volunteering in Ukraine, but the vast majority are local Ukranians. Even the western media admits that.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 12):
foreign invasion in the east (and Crimea)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdU0b66fd40
These people look very "unified"  
Just not with Ukraine...
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Scipio
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:08 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 16):
Try throwing some flaming coctails at your local police station and see where it gets you.

You forgot to mention everything that preceded that.

We don't have Berkut thugs in our local police (in Belgium), nor do we have any Titushki freely roaming the streets beating people up and randomly destroying property while the police looks the other way ... We also don't have a Parliament that adopts dictatorial laws by hand-raising without anybody bothering to count the hands.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 16):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKHFgYCbgvI
Lots more, just open your eyes.

One RT film? That's your "credible evidence"? RT obviously wouldn't show the preceding scenes, during which the guys at the front of the crowd attack the "guardsmen" (are you sure they are National Guard?) and try to grab their guns...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 16):
True, looking for a foreign enemy when your economy is collapsing along with the standards of living of the population is great for easing internal tentions.

Sounds like the Kremlin's strategy...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 16):
Before we start tours of the Kremlin, Buchinham Palace and the White House, lets take some tours and see how the current Ukranian politicians are living.

Ah, it's Ukraine's fault again? Ukraine has to become a perfect model of governance and completely free of corruption before anyone can ask any questions about Russia, right?

If there was ever any deflection of attention...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 16):
Care to back that up?

It's so obvious that I don't think I need to. How do you think all those armed Russians and Chechens and the heavy equipment got into Eastern Ukraine?

Obviously, they all crossed the border legitimately and bought the equipment in the local grocery store...
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:08 am

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 4):
Russia has signed a treaty not to invade Ukraine and they've annexed one region and invaded another.

They signed a non binding memo not a treaty.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 9):
If Putin invades he will have full war with the west.
His Separists are nothing but Russian soldiers pretending to be Ukrainian.

Where is your proof, so far there is none, until a Russian soldier is captured you have nothing to base this accusation on.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 12):
The real thugs that have shown up in Kyiv in the last nine months were the Berkut (granted, not all of them) and the Titushki (thugs hired by the Yanukovich regime to beat up / kill protesters and terrorize the overall population).

YOu need to look up Right Sector, these are the pro Kiev thugs that have been doing all sorts of nasty things, ie burning people alive in Odessa.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 17):
We also don't have a Parliament that adopts dictatorial laws by hand-raising without anybody bothering to count the hands.

I'm pretty sure like in the US absent politicians in Belgium have there votes placed by other members. There's some pretty funny videos on youtube showing this happening all around the US.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 17):
Ah, it's Ukraine's fault again? Ukraine has to become a perfect model of governance and completely free of corruption before anyone can ask any questions about Russia, right?

This is a discussion on Ukraine, not Russia. You can bet the Maindan guys have stolen as much as they can already, it's the nature of the people.
 
tu204
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:35 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 17):
You forgot to mention everything that preceded that.

In every country I have been to disobeying the Police usually gets you detained, if you resist you usually get pepper-sprayed or worse. Throwing coctails at the Police will normally get you shot at.
It all started with the Police legitimately asking the protestors to dispurse. Once the protestors resisted the Police used excessive force. That does not however justify what happened after.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 17):
nor do we have any Titushki freely roaming the streets beating people up and randomly destroying property while the police looks the other way

Good for you. And I am 100% sure that in Belgium the government wouldn't let such a situation snowball out of control. The key to riot control is to use just enough force to dispurce the crowd, but you must dispurce them. When the Police in Kiev backed down at first, it gave a signal to the protestors that they can do whatever they want.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 17):
One RT film? That's your "credible evidence"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbO5LT097WQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnBA9laoAVk
Feel free to watch more videos that are linked to this one.
It's one thing if you said that the rebels are commiting more crimes than the Ukranian Army/National Guard. That would an acceptable claim. But when you say that it is ONLY the Rebels commiting crimes while the other side is not, your argument loses a lot of weight.
Crimes are commitied by BOTH sides, to not see that is very nieve and misleading.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 17):
Sounds like the Kremlin's strategy...

It's the strategy of almost any country in the world. However comparing Russia with a fairly high standard of living to the Ukraine, where that has been plummeting in the last year is an invalid comparisson.

The strategy is working though, I must say.
Your utilities doubled in 6 months? Your pension was cut in half in 6 months? Groceries and expenses went up 40%? It's not our fault, its Russia...

Quoting Scipio (Reply 17):
Ah, it's Ukraine's fault again?

Well we are talking about Ukraine and I am saying that the new guys are no better than the old guys. We are trying to not talk about Russia, the UK, Belgium and the United States. That would get off topic.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 17):
It's so obvious that I don't think I need to.

Wonderful. So "its obvious" and "everyone knows" is now irrefutable proof? Very interesting approach. I hope you aren't a lawyer.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 17):
the heavy equipment got into Eastern Ukraine?

You conviniently forget the fact that plenty of Ukranian Army units switched sides and plenty more bases were captured. There was enough heavy equipment there to arm the rebels for a few months of combat.

[Edited 2014-07-29 05:43:17]
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:44 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 19):
That does not however justify what happened after.

Sharp shooters killing nurses and protesters. That's what happened afterwards. Until your beloved Puppet Master left the country running.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 19):
And I am 100% sure that in Belgium the government wouldn't let such a situation snowball out of control. The

Sure, they would see what injustice is happening in the country next door, the Netherlands, hire a bunch of thugs pay each $40/hr to go across the border beat up people and then claim they've always been Dutch and deserve their own little space. And when the Dutch refuse then send in the heavy guns to take it by force.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 19):
But when you say that it is ONLY the Rebels commiting crimes while the other side is not, your argument loses a lot of weight.

Ever considered that those "others" could be Russians pretending to be Ukrainians just to steer up a confrontation to feed the Russian media frenzy.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 19):
Crimes are commitied by BOTH sides, to not see that is very nieve and misleading.

Except that Russia is in Ukrainian territory. It's not like Ukraine invaded Russia.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 19):
We are trying to not talk about Russia

Russia invaded Ukraine and this fighting is because of Russia it's certainly not because of Australia. So we talk about Russia, Russia's leader and the brainwashed Russian public which is becoming a liability.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 19):
There was enough heavy equipment there to arm the rebels for a few months of combat.

Then why did the Rebels ask Putin for Help three weeks ago? Why did they desert their location and fled the advancing Ukrainian army. And where did the BUK come from with the Russian Uniformed crew ?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 16):
A memorendum. Big difference.

The Big difference is that Russia's trust is now gone
Anything they sign or say is now meaningless.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 16):
Go and talk to the last person who said that. A certain Georgian . . .

Your little Falkland war. Something to be proud of.
 
tu204
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:46 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 20):
Sharp shooters killing nurses and protesters. That's what happened afterwards. Until your beloved Puppet Master left the country running.

There has been no investigation into who actually shot anyone. Ask Mrs. Ashton.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 20):
Sure, they would see what injustice is happening in the country next door, the Netherlands, hire a bunch of thugs pay each $40/hr to go across the border beat up people and then claim they've always been Dutch and deserve their own little space. And when the Dutch refuse then send in the heavy guns to take it by force.

Care to give any proof to your argument? I mean it. Any. Whatsoever. Heresay doesn't count.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 20):
Ever considered that those "others" could be Russians pretending to be Ukrainians just to steer up a confrontation to feed the Russian media frenzy.

Again, you are more than welcome to provide proof that all of the seperatists are Russian-in-disguise.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 20):
Except that Russia is in Ukrainian territory. It's not like Ukraine invaded Russia.

Nope. Civil war going on. Russia is in nobody's territory, you have two sides from the same country with differing views that are shooting each other. Thats how a civil was usually plays out.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 20):
Then why did the Rebels ask Putin for Help three weeks ago?

They asked for help not WEEKS, but MONTHS ago after the refferendum and were shut down on the spot.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 20):
Your little Falkland war. Something to be proud of.

Our peacekeepers were shot at, so were hundreds of civilians, we shot back and the Georgians ran home throwing their weapons aside?
Buddy, this isn't some game. This is real life. People died there. A lunatic decided to start a war that he could not win, but in the process people actually died!
I am hoping that you understand the concept here. There was no "reset" button and they will not magically come to life again.
A lunatic, who is currently under trial in Georgia and hiding out in Ukraine started a war killing hundreds of his (then) own people.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Tugger
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:11 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 21):
Buddy, this isn't some game. This is real life. People died there. A lunatic decided to start a war that he could not win, but in the process people actually died!

Yes, people died. But when someone tries to take over your house (even under the guise of "peacekeepers" but not sanctioned by any international body or anything like that) sometimes you have to actually fight back and shoot, start a war, to tell them to leave.... whether you can win or not. You just cannot allow an outside force to dictate to you, even if they are militarily superior to you. I am sure you understand that.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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GDB
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:10 pm

This week's FlightGlobal considers the official Russian stuff making dark hints about a Ukranian SU-25 maybe shooting the 777 down.
Their 'evidence' as presented, apparently does not bear much scrutiny, at least from anyone with basic knowledge of air traffic, radar, flight operations.
But then it does not have to, since it's for internal consumption and for conspiracy nuts and assorted useful idiots outside of Russia.

Then you are reminded of the people who died on MH17.
Putin and his mob don't even believe it themselves, it's just the usual tactic of trying the muddy the waters, delay, obstruction, along with that dollop of false victimhood on their part.
Considering this, which is in effect trying to lie about, obstruct, an air disaster investigation, what about a total ban on all Russian civil aviation outside of their borders?
Yes they'd do the same for foreign airlines but it would hit the Russian carriers far harder.
Unless of course they cut this crap and start acting like a country committed to safe air transport, with all the obligations that brings.

The threat should be enough.
It's really rather pathetic, certainly not worthy of the 'great power' Putin wants to lead.
More like some third world despot really.
 
Scipio
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:53 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 16):
Quoting Scipio (Reply 12):
I challenge you to come up with any credible evidence of serious abuse by the National Guard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKHFgYCbgvI
Lots more, just open your eyes. Both sides are doing some bad things here. Saying that only one is guilty is very nieve.

So, here is a more complete (and more honest) version of what happened on May 11 in Krasnoarmiisk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZeV2Lr4O_s

If you still consider RT an honest source of information, you obviously missed this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlenlVnf99A

and this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-ml4QzKLYI

Quoting tu204 (Reply 19):
Quoting Scipio (Reply 17):
One RT film? That's your "credible evidence"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbO5LT097WQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnBA9...aoAVk

Those films do not prove anything. All we can see is that there was shooting in the streets of Mariupol. It is not clear who is shooting at whom. If I were to be a lawyer, it would be very easy to dismiss this as evidence in any court.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, and I am not claiming that no mistakes were made on the Ukrainian side, but the available evidence of systematic abuse points firmly in the direction of the "rebels"/"separatists".

So, did you read the UN report? If so, care to comment?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 16):
A memorendum. Big difference.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
They signed a non binding memo not a treaty.

How apologetic and pathetic can you get?
In essence, what you're saying is that Russia should never be trusted. Bismarck said something similar about 150 years ago...

Meanwhile, freedom of expression in Moscow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-ml4QzKLYI (the relevant part starts from 6')

Quoting tu204 (Reply 19):
In every country I have been to disobeying the Police usually gets you detained, if you resist you usually get pepper-sprayed or worse. Throwing coctails at the Police will normally get you shot at.

In most countries I have been in, the police for the most part enjoys the trust and support of the people. This was not the case in Ukraine. The people of Kyiv almost universally sided with the Maidan protesters against the so-called "police" of the Yanukovych regime.

That is why the "police" was unable to clear Maidan.

For example, during the night of December 10-11, church bells rang for hours on end to call on people to come defend Maidan against the assault of the "police" thugs. By the early morning hours, there were hundreds of thousands of people on Maidan to push back the "police" assault.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKV_XacE29w
 
tu204
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:44 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 22):
but not sanctioned by any international body or anything like that)

Huh? Russian peacekeepers were stationed in South Ossetia under a joint mandate in 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_C...%80%93Ossetian_Conflict_Resolution
They are now stationed there under request from the now sovreign states of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
But now that you bring it up, do you care to recall what the media was trumpeting to you in 2008? That Russia attacked Georgia? Big Bad Russians? And do you want to look at what is known now? That it was actually the other way around?
Maybe you want to look at what is fed to you my the media with a bit of sceptisism??

Quoting Scipio (Reply 24):
For example, during the night of December 10-11, church bells rang for hours on end to call on people to come defend Maidan against the assault of the "police" thugs.

And church bells were ringing in Eastern Ukraine when the Kiev Army and National Guard were storming them. As I said earlier, one man's hero is another man's villain.
Try to understand the simple fact that in a civil war you have two parties that have opposing views.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 24):
In most countries I have been in, the police for the most part enjoys the trust and support of the people. This was not the case in Ukraine. The people of Kyiv almost universally sided with the Maidan protesters against the so-called "police" of the Yanukovych regime.

Just like the Kiev forces don't have the trust of the local population in Eastern Ukraine. So under your logic they are doing the right thing by fighting them?
If I think something is unfair do I have the right to take up arms and start shooting and destroying property?

[Edited 2014-07-29 21:59:10]
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
PhilBy
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:10 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 19):
You conviniently forget the fact that plenty of Ukranian Army units switched sides and plenty more bases were captured. There was enough heavy equipment there to arm the rebels for a few months of combat.

But that doesn't explain the alleged satelite images showing three SA11 launchers crossing the border from Ukraine into Russia shortly after the crash of the airliner unless Russian military units crossed the border, seized the launchers from the seperatists and took them into Russia for safe-keeping.

"a Buk launcher also known as the SA-11 on the streets in the town of Torez, just a few kilometres from the crash site"
"at 02:00 on 18 July, the day after the crash of flight MH17, two SA-11 launchers crossed the Russian border in the Luhansk region, followed by further launcher in another group of three vehicles two hours later."
 
tu204
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:49 am

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 26):
But that doesn't explain the alleged satelite images showing three SA11 launchers crossing the border from Ukraine into Russia shortly after the crash of the airliner unless Russian military units crossed the border, seized the launchers from the seperatists and took them into Russia for safe-keeping.

"a Buk launcher also known as the SA-11 on the streets in the town of Torez, just a few kilometres from the crash site"
"at 02:00 on 18 July, the day after the crash of flight MH17, two SA-11 launchers crossed the Russian border in the Luhansk region, followed by further launcher in another group of three vehicles two hours later."

Have the images been released?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
PhilBy
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:55 pm

"On the last day of May, a surface-to-air rocket was signed out of a military base near Moscow where it had been stored for more than 20 years.

According to the ornate Cyrillic handwriting in the weapon's Russian Defence Ministry logbook, seen by Reuters, the portable rocket, for use with an Igla rocket launcher, was destined for a base in Rostov, some 50 km (31 miles) from the Ukrainian border. In that area, say U.S. officials, lies a camp for training Ukrainian separatist fighters.

Three weeks later the rocket and its logbook turned up in eastern Ukraine, where government troops seized them from pro-Russian separatists.
The logbook, which is more than 20 pages long, records that rocket 03181 entered service on May 21, 1993, and had regular tests as recently as 2005 to make sure it was in fighting form. The seal of the Russian Defence Ministry has been stamped over the signature sending the weapon to Rostov.

A copy of the log was passed to a diplomat in Ukraine's capital, Kiev."

Reuters.

Proof of propaganda:

"Experts on the commission probing into the causes of the Boeing 777 crash have said the data retrieved from onboard flight recorders point to a massive blast decompression produced by multiple fragmentation resultant from a missile explosion," the report said.

Can anyone work out what parameter recorded by the 'black box' measures the number of fragmentation impacts?

[Edited 2014-07-30 06:36:50]
 
tu204
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:59 pm

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 28):

"On the last day of May, a surface-to-air rocket was signed out of a military base near Moscow where it had been stored for more than 20 years.

According to the ornate Cyrillic handwriting in the weapon's Russian Defence Ministry logbook, seen by Reuters, the portable rocket, for use with an Igla rocket launcher, was destined for a base in Rostov, some 50 km (31 miles) from the Ukrainian border. In that area, say U.S. officials, lies a camp for training Ukrainian separatist fighters.

Three weeks later the rocket and its logbook turned up in eastern Ukraine, where government troops seized them from pro-Russian separatists.
The logbook, which is more than 20 pages long, records that rocket 03181 entered service on May 21, 1993, and had regular tests as recently as 2005 to make sure it was in fighting form. The seal of the Russian Defence Ministry has been stamped over the signature sending the weapon to Rostov.

A copy of the log was passed to a diplomat in Ukraine's capital, Kiev."

Definately worth investigating.
And verifying two major points:
1) Do we actually have a photo of the logbook? (You didn't post a link to your source, so I don't know).
and
2) Is it authentic and can it be verified? The fact that it was ornate Cyrillic handwriting would make this difficult to verify.

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 28):
Can anyone work out what parameter recorded by the 'black box' measures the number of fragmentation impacts?

To my knowledge there is no such parameter that would tell you if anything pierced the pressure vessel.
You can tell it was an explosive decompression by looking at the Cabin Pressure Altitude parameter (if recorded on this specific aircraft/recorder), however there is no way to tell just by this parameter if it was an internal or external explosion, much less say that there were "multiple fragmentation impacts" based solely on this.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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casinterest
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:08 pm

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 28):
Can anyone work out what parameter recorded by the 'black box' measures the number of fragmentation impacts?

Possibly the CVR coupled with the Air pressure indicator , but the pictures of the remains of the cockpit are proof enough. Either way the Ukrainians should not be making any statements about what is on the Black boxes without the Chief of Investigations report.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
PhilBy
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:14 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 29):
(You didn't post a link to your source, so I don't know).



My actual source is only accesible from within this system but the originator of the article was Reuters (SPECIAL REPORT-Where Ukraine's separatists get their weapons)

There are 4 obvious possibilities
1) Russia gave the separatists the missile.
2) The separatists stole the missile from Russia who are too embarrassed to admit it.
3) The logbook and missile are good fakes
4) Reuters is fibbing

I don't give 2 and 4 much credibility.

But equally, I don't have any more faith in the Russian military being honest than I have in any of those US letter agencies being honest.

[Edited 2014-07-30 07:16:34]
 
tu204
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:41 pm

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 31):
My actual source is only accesible from within this system but the originator of the article was Reuters (SPECIAL REPORT-Where Ukraine's separatists get their weapons)

There are 4 obvious possibilities
1) Russia gave the separatists the missile.
2) The separatists stole the missile from Russia who are too embarrassed to admit it.
3) The logbook and missile are good fakes
4) Reuters is fibbing

I don't give 2 and 4 much credibility.

But equally, I don't have any more faith in the Russian military being honest than I have in any of those US letter agencies being honest.

Agreed. Also keep in mind that Reuters got this alleged logbook from the Ukranian Military, which can be trusted as much as the rebels at this point.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 30):
Possibly the CVR coupled with the Air pressure indicator , but the pictures of the remains of the cockpit are proof enough. Either way the Ukrainians should not be making any statements about what is on the Black boxes without the Chief of Investigations report.

Exactly. Judging by the FDR you can see there was an explosive decompression and judging by the wreckage we can see that the explosion happened OUTSIDE the pressure vessel with inward bending of the fusulage.
But making statements that "based upon the black boxes..." is inherintly wrong and misleading.

Anyhow, who caused the explosion and under what circumstances is what is interesting.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:32 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 25):
Quoting Tugger (Reply 22):
but not sanctioned by any international body or anything like that)

Huh? Russian peacekeepers were stationed in South Ossetia under a joint mandate in 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_C...%80%93Ossetian_Conflict_Resolution
They are now stationed there under request from the now sovreign states of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
But now that you bring it up, do you care to recall what the media was trumpeting to you in 2008? That Russia attacked Georgia? Big Bad Russians? And do you want to look at what is known now? That it was actually the other way around?
Maybe you want to look at what is fed to you my the media with a bit of sceptisism??

You talk of not trustig the media yet it is Russia and Russian media that created that entire article. But then you don't "distrust" anything that is supporting your point of view do you? But I understand why.

Tugg
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Scipio
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:07 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 25):
Try to understand the simple fact that in a civil war you have two parties that have opposing views.

Most Ukrainians, including most Ukrainians from the east, no longer see this as a civil war but rather as a foreign invasion. Ukraine's internal differences would never have resulted in an armed conflict of this scale without massive Russian interference.

You may have missed these two small films, which I posted earlier in the other MH17 thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koy4CRQ7NTc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzHpP6o8yjs

For those who don't understand Russian: these are locals telling the rebel leaders that the population does not support them, that they don't need their protection, and asking them to please go away...

Another interesting film, just produced by the Russian opposition:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDm4nDpTKH4

The film shows how the rebel movement is largely Russian / Chechen, that the (mostly Russian) rebel leaders do not manage to find large numbers of locals who want to join the fight, how Russian politicians talk about supporting the rebels with weapons and technical assistance, that volunteers are being recruited in official recruitment centers of the Russian Armed Forces, how one rebel admits that the rebels shot down MH17 with a Buk, and how Putin denies everything.

Russia's top-20 lies about Ukraine:
(WARNING: explicit images of dead bodies and such)

http://www.examiner.com/list/russia-s-top-20-lies-about-ukraine
 
tu204
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:13 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 33):
You talk of not trustig the media yet it is Russia and Russian media that created that entire article.

My god! It isn't even a disputed fact (except by yourself) that Russian Peacekeepers were in South Ossetia under a joint Russian-Georgian mandate! There are things you can possibly call me out on, but trying to call me out on the fact that Russian Forces were illegally inside South Ossetia at the moment hostilities commenced in 2008 is just not one of them.
Here's a Georgian source if you don't trust mine: http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=11710
Quoting:
"Legal Base:
Russian troops are stationed in South Ossetia as part of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces (JPKF), which also involves Georgian and Ossetian servicemen. The JPKF was set up and stationed in the conflict zone based on a June 24, 1992 agreement. Then-Russian President Boris Yeltsin and then-Head of the Georgian State Eduard Shevardnadze signed this agreement in Russia’s resort city of Sochi."
If you don't trust even the Georgian source, I am sorry but I am not going to do any more research for you. Feel free to do that yourself to prove me wrong. Google is your friend.



And here's some more facts for our Belgian friend that doesn't believe that Ukranian Forces are going anything wrong:
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/u...unguided-rockets-killing-civilians
Human Rights Watch. Do you believe this source or not?
I repeat again, attrocities are being commited by BOTH sides of this conflict.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 34):
Most Ukrainians, including most Ukrainians from the east, no longer see this as a civil war but rather as a foreign invasion. Ukraine's internal differences would never have resulted in an armed conflict of this scale without massive Russian interference.

You may have missed these two small films, which I posted earlier in the other MH17 thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koy4CRQ7NTc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzHpP...o8yjs

Please don't use words like "most". As I stated many times, there is a CIVIL WAR going on. You have two parties with opposing views.
Watch these videos. It doesn't prove anything, I can interview hundreds of people that are against Kiev, you can interview hundreds that are for. Thats what happens in a civil war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgsO710HTx4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzH0AySkSNE

That being said, I would like to share some of my personal views. Today when I walked out of my local supermarket, more than 1000km from the Ukranian border, some people were standing at the exit collecting money, food and clothes for Ukranian Refugees that fled to Russia.
I promptly declined and had a quick, friendly discussion with several of them. One of them was a student from Donetsk who is an actual refugee herself (during our discussion she showed me her Refugee papers).
I'll start by saying that ever since my 10+ years of living in Canada, I have been against letting mass ammounts of refugees into the country whether it was back in Canada or here in Russia.

I'll post my main points:
- Neither herself or her family members have paid taxes here in Russia, so I do not feel they are entitled to goods and services that are being given to them as refugees by the government.
- The people of Eastern Ukraine are in part to blame for what happened. So they were against the coup that occured? Why did they not speak out about it in December, January and February? There were only 100,000 people in Kiev protesting! They could clearly see at that time that the protestor's agenda was incompatiable with their own and speak out against them. But they decided to wait until the sh*tstorm started to start doing something? Their inaction let the protestors to overthrow the government and only after did they realise how bad things were going to get before starting protests of their own.
I do sincerely regret the loss of life, loss of property and loss of future that occured, and I don't want to sound heartless when I say this, but they are partly to blame. Their inactions brought upon themselves the situation they have now.
This was not some act of god, it wasn't an earthquake or a tsunami (where I happily and generously donate to the less fortunate), this was a coup where you could pretty easily calculate the outcome. You didn't act early enough to protect your rights? You are at least partially to blame for the outcome.

Long story short: She agreed with my points, saying that "we didn't think it was going to end up this way". I gave her my card saying that if any of the refugees in this city have experience working with Aviation, the company I work for is desperately in need of some technicians. Surprisingly enough, I got a call from someone looking for work an hour later.
I have absolutely nothing against people earning their bread by working for it. I understand the problems people are facing with everything they own being destroyed and loved ones dying, but that doesn't somehow put them above me and my fellow taxpaying citizens. I don't feel like being forced to pay for someone's misfortunes when they had ample oppertunity to not get themselves into this mess.

[Edited 2014-07-30 10:28:50]
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Scipio
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:02 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 19):
Well we are talking about Ukraine and I am saying that the new guys are no better than the old guys.

You are very wrong on this. The new guys are not clean, but the old guys were VERY BAD.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 19):
We are trying to not talk about Russia, the UK, Belgium and the United States.

With Russia's involvement in eastern Ukraine, Crimea, and the shooting down of MH17, I think Russia is essentially the topic here. Ukraine is the unwilling victim.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 19):
You conviniently forget the fact that plenty of Ukranian Army units switched sides and plenty more bases were captured. There was enough heavy equipment there to arm the rebels for a few months of combat.

Can you provide evidence of the "plenty of Ukrainian Army units" that switched sides? Police (Militia) and Ministry of Internal Affairs forces, yes, but Army units? No...

There are documented cases of rebels capturing a few BTR's or BMP's here and there, and of rebels driving off old tanks from museums, but to my knowledge there are no documented cases of rebels capturing tanks, artillery and other heavy equipment from Ukrainian Army bases.

This could hardly be the case, because the Ukrainian armed forces based their heavy equipment in the west and the center of the country, assuming that any foreign invasion would come from the west rather than from brotherly Russia...

The only army base in Donbass with significant numbers of heavy equipment is the tank base in Artemivsk. This is not an active base, but a long-term storage facility. Thing is, the Ukrainian army successfully defended this base against multiple rebel attacks. No equipment was reported captured or stolen from this base.

In any case, as this is a long-term storage facility, nobody would be able to simply drive off some of the equipment before first doing some serious maintenance.

When the first rebel tanks appeared in the east, the rebels claimed that they had captured them from the Artemivsk base. Obviously, this was a lie, as the base was still controlled by Ukrainian army units.

As more and more heavy military equipment appeared in the rebel-held territories, the rebels no longer even bothered to invent stories about where the equipment came from...

There have been plenty of columns of military equipment reported, witnessed, documented, filmed, and photographed moving from the Russian border west toward the frontlines and the various rebel strongholds.

There are no eyewitness accounts whatsoever of "rebel" tanks driving out of Artemivsk toward rebel positions...

And there is also this interesting film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCw9O_V713Q

It shows the aftermath of an attack on the Marynivka border post in Donetsk oblast. From the footage, it is clear that the border post was attacked from the Russian side of the border...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 21):
Ask Mrs. Ashton.

In the particular case you are referring to, Mrs. Ashton misquoted Dr. Olha Boholomets, the volunteer head of Maydan's medical services. Dr. Boholomets publicly stated that she did not say what Mrs. Ashton attributed to her...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 21):
Russia is in nobody's territory, you have two sides from the same country with differing views that are shooting each other.

No, you have Russian and Chechen volunteers and mercenaries murdering and terrorizing Ukrainians.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 25):
If I think something is unfair do I have the right to take up arms and start shooting and destroying property?

What you forget is that the first ones who took up arms, started shooting, started abducting, beating up, and killing people, and started randomly destroying property were Yanukovych's thugs...

Freedom of the press under Yanukovych:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine...urnalist-savagely-beaten-1.2476805

Quoting tu204 (Reply 25):
Maybe you want to look at what is fed to you my the media with a bit of sceptisism??

This is very wise advice. It applies in particular to Russia's mass media when they report about Ukraine...
 
Scipio
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:20 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 35):
And here's some more facts for our Belgian friend that doesn't believe that Ukranian Forces are going anything wrong:
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/u...unguided-rockets-killing-civilians
Human Rights Watch. Do you believe this source or not?

Russia has delivered lots of Grad systems to the rebels. The Ukrainian authorities are quite firm in stating that their troops are not authorized to fire Grads and other heavy artillery into populated areas, but that rebels are doing just that in order to discredit the Ukrainian armed forces and to provide propaganda material for the Russian mass media.

Eyewitness accounts largely corrobarate the Ukrainian authorities' version of what is going on ...

So, have you finally read the UN report that I posted above?
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:49 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 37):
The Ukrainian authorities are quite firm in stating that their troops are not authorized to fire Grads and other heavy artillery into populated areas, but that rebels are doing just that in order to discredit the Ukrainian armed forces and to provide propaganda material for the Russian mass media.

So we should just take your word for it? HRW says the following: http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/u...unguided-rockets-killing-civilians

Fair use excerpt: Both Ukrainian government and insurgent forces have recently used Grad rockets. Although Ukrainian government officials and the press service of the National Guard have denied using Grad rockets in Donetsk, a Human Rights Watch investigation on the ground strongly indicates that Ukrainian government forces were responsible for the attacks that occurred between July 12 and 21.
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
Scipio
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:26 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 38):
So we should just take your word for it?

No, you shouldn't. I'm just giving you the Ukrainian authorities' version of the events. Their claim is that rebels bring heavy equipment close to the positions of the Ukrainian forces and shoot from there into residential areas, making it seem as if the Ukrainian forces are shelling these areas. HRW's observations are generally not inconsistent with this version...

The Ukrainians have no incentives to turn their own cities to rubble. By contrast, several senior rebels have boasted in public that they will turn the large eastern Ukrainian cities into "new Stalingrads"...

Also, the rebels make it a habit of shooting from inside residential areas, hiding behind the civilian population they claim to be protecting ...

Here is some footage of rebels firing mortars. As far as I can tell from within a residential area into a residential area (assuming that a stadium will not be located in empty countryside). Doesn't look like precision fire to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBSfomXF1Zc

Quoting tu204 (Reply 35):
Please don't use words like "most".

I know Ukraine very well and I know many Ukrainians, including Ukrainians from Donbass. I am very comfortable using the word "most", as I know that it reflects reality. I will continue to do so. With very few exceptions, Ukrainians now see Putin as their biggest enemy.

The drama that is unfolding here is the wedge that is being driven between the Ukrainian and Russian peoples by the Russian propaganda machine and Putin's aggression. Many Ukrainians tell me that they have stopped talking to their Russian friends and family members, because it has become impossible to have a reasonable and/or pleasant conversation with them. Such is the extent of the anti-Ukrainian brainwashing going on in today's Russia...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 35):
There were only 100,000 people in Kiev protesting!

At times, there were many more. And the protesters enjoyed broad popular support. Most of the Ukrainians from Kyiv that I know were in one way or another supporting Maydan: bringing food, medications and firewood to Maydan, giving financial support, buying helmets, driving tires to Maydan in their trunks, occasionally visiting and joining the protests ... I even know someone who, together with a group of friends, produced self-made bulletproof vests for the protesters.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 35):
So they were against the coup that occured?

There was no coup. There was a people's revolt, which Yanukovych tried to suppress violently. When killing 100+ protesters failed to dislodge Maydan, he fled the country. He was subsequently impeached by Parliament with a large majority...

The last real "coup" that took place in Ukraine was Yanukovych's 2010 constitutional coup, when he had the 2004 Constitution declared invalid in order to rule with the broader presidential powers of the 1996 Constitution...

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
YOu need to look up Right Sector, these are the pro Kiev thugs that have been doing all sorts of nasty things, ie burning people alive in Odessa.

The Right Sector is neither as nasty nor as representative of Maydan as the Russian propaganda would make you believe. Their leader got 0.7 % of the vote in the May presidential elections.

And let's be clear about what happened in Odessa on May 2:

- soccer fans and Maydan supporters organized a march for the unity of Ukraine prior to a soccer game
- this march was brutally attacked by a group of armed thugs, some of which were using firearms
- these thugs were apparently colluding with (or even organized and instructed by) elements from within Odessa's notoriously corrupt police force
- several of the pro-Ukrainian marchers were killed and many were wounded (many with bullet wounds)
- however, the pro-Ukrainian marchers fought back and drove their attackers away
- some pursued the attackers to the "Anti-Maydan" camp near the trade unions building and demolished this camp, setting it on fire
- the attackers and some anti-Maydan people retreated into the trade unions building; from there, shooting continued at the pro-Ukrainian marchers--several more of them were killed or wounded
- firebombs were thrown both from and toward the trade unions building
- at some point, the building caught fire, apparently from the inside; somehow the fire spread very rapidly and produced suffocating gases
- when it became clear how precarious the situation was, some of the pro-Ukrainians helped people get out of the building
- some people were beaten by the pro-Ukrainian crowd after getting out of the building; many were protected from the crowd by the police
- the police was quick to release many of the arrested anti-Ukrainian thugs

Odessa has been calm since the head of its police force was replaced...

Here is a video showing some of the "cooperation" between the anti-Ukrainian thugs and the police:
(WARNING: violent scenes)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rgf5n2HiMw
 
tu204
Posts: 2022
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:27 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 39):
I'm just giving you the Ukrainian authorities' version of the events.

Thats kind of the problem. I wouldn't trust anything the Ukranian authorities are saying more than what the rebels are saying. Both are talking trash.
The bigger problem is that the majority of Ukranians actually believe it.
Even you are treating this version of events as the "ultimate truth".

Quoting Scipio (Reply 39):
Their claim is that rebels bring heavy equipment close to the positions of the Ukrainian forces and shoot from there into residential areas, making it seem as if the Ukrainian forces are shelling these areas.

Yeah...of course.
It is worrying you are believing this version of events.

I must say that the Ukranians are dooing a beautiful job of convincing their population and even better at redirecting attention from a tanking economy and huge economic and social problems just around the corner.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 39):
With very few exceptions, Ukrainians now see Putin as their biggest enemy.
Quoting Scipio (Reply 39):
The drama that is unfolding here is the wedge that is being driven between the Ukrainian and Russian peoples by the Russian propaganda machine and Putin's aggression. Many Ukrainians tell me that they have stopped talking to their Russian friends and family members, because it has become impossible to have a reasonable and/or pleasant conversation with them. Such is the extent of the anti-Ukrainian brainwashing going on in today's Russia...

Such is the extent of brainwashing in Ukraine. Russian media, although biased is not portraying Ukraine as an enemy, it is showing a one-sided picture of the leadership of Ukraine and their attacks on civilians. Ethnic Ukranian civilians, ethnic Russian civilians.
The Ukranian leadership and media are showing a foreign enemy. Which is pretty much all they can do to divert attention from all their problems.
That being said, I don't see it as that big of a deal on this side. Russia subsidized the Ukranian economy by over $200bln over the last 20 years. Lets let the EU and US have their turn at feeding Ukraine. This money can be better utilised at home.
And the economic situation isn't even bad at the moment. This is going to get very ugly very soon.
Today the Russian Ministry of Finance started calculating import tarrifs that will be imposed on Ukranian goods.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 39):
There was no coup. There was a people's revolt
Coup d'etat - The sudden overthrow of a government, differing from a revolution by being carried out by a small group of people who replace only the leading figures.
It was exactly this.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 39):
When killing 100+ protesters failed to dislodge Maydan

And we still don't know who killed protestors and police. And will likely never know, there have been no investigations much less independent ones. But there are plenty of individuals that did a brief investigation and I think there is more than reasonable doubt that the events happened as the current leadership says they did. But they aren't even bothering to investigate anything anyways.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 39):
He was subsequently impeached by Parliament with a large majority...

Misguiding statement on your part, one that the majority of Ukranians are not even questioning.
Even though this is completely irrelevant now and "the ship has sailed", he wasn't impeached in accordance to the Ukranian Constitution. Therefore he wasn't actually impeached.
Let's analyze the facts:
While the majority voted for his impeachment (328 votes), 338 votes were required (3/4 of the Rada, that consists of 450 representatives). I am not even going to touch other points like an official charge of a crime to commence impeachment procedures.

He wasn't impeached and he didn't resign and he also didn't die. His removal was illegal and unconstitutional.

Here's the Ukranian Constitution:

Article 108
The President of Ukraine exercises his or her powers until the assumption of office by the newly-elected President of Ukraine.

The powers of the President of Ukraine terminate prior to the expiration of term in cases of:

resignation;
inability to exercise his or her powers for reasons of health;
removal from office by the procedure of impeachment;
death.

Article 111
The President of Ukraine may be removed from office by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by the procedure of impeachment, in the event that he or she commits state treason or other crime.

The issue of the removal of the President of Ukraine from office by the procedure of impeachment is initiated by the majority of the constitutional composition of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

To conduct the investigation, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine establishes a special temporary investigatory commission whose composition includes a special procurator and special investigators.

The conclusions and proposals of the temporary investigatory commission are considered at a meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

For cause, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, by no less than two-thirds of its constitutional composition, adopts a decision on the accusation of the President of Ukraine.

The decision on the removal of the President of Ukraine from office by the procedure of impeachment is adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by no less than three-quarters of its constitutional composition, after the review of the case by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine and the receipt of its opinion on the observance of the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration of the case of impeachment, and the receipt of the opinion of the Supreme Court of Ukraine to the effect that the acts, of which the President of Ukraine is accused, contain elements of state treason or other crime.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
jmp367
Posts: 14
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:28 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 40):
Both are talking trash.
The bigger problem is that the majority of Ukranians actually believe it.
Even you are treating this version of events as the "ultimate truth".

The same could be said of the majority of Russians unquestioning belief of their own government/media version of this event, so try to stay objective.

[Edited 2014-07-31 09:34:00]
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:04 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 39):
Here is some footage of rebels firing mortars. As far as I can tell from within a residential area into a residential area (assuming that a stadium will not be located in empty countryside). Doesn't look like precision fire to me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBSfo...XF1Zc

Some people made an analysis of the location and direction of this mortar fire. As it turns out, the mortars were located in the stadium of Shakhtarsk, and the rebels were firing in the direction of the city center...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUf2KLIs-ho

Another analysis, including with pictures of the receiving end:

http://www.hromadske.tv/society/boio...ali-zhitlovi-kvartali-shakhtarska/

"Russian patriots" shelling Ukrainian civilians...
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:27 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 40):
Even you are treating this version of events as the "ultimate truth".

I clearly said that this was the Ukrainian authorities' version... At no point did I endorse this as the truth.

However, in my experience with respect to this conflict, the Ukrainian authorities bend the truth a lot less than the Kremlin or the rebels. Ukraine has a free press, an uncensured internet, and a vibrant civic society. That seriously limits the authorities' scope for lying ...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 40):
It is worrying you are believing this version of events.

Well, the video that I posted kind of supports this version. If you find a video of Ukrainian soldiers indiscriminately shelling residential areas, and rejoicing in it, please share...

There is more stuff like this appearing on the internet.

For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYl4PhsDIXI

The military purpose of this vandalism kind of escapes me...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 40):
Coup d'etat - The sudden overthrow of a government, differing from a revolution by being carried out by a small group of people who replace only the leading figures.
It was exactly this.

Maydan = a small group of people? By your own definition, this was a revolution and not a coup d'etat. The people revolted agains a kleptocratic and incompetent dictator. They gave the opposition figures a temporary mandate to manage the transition. During the presidential elections, the people put Tymoshenko in her place. And in October, there will be parliamentary elections, most of the current parliamentarians will not be re-elected, and democracy will have been restored.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 40):
Today the Russian Ministry of Finance started calculating import tarrifs that will be imposed on Ukranian goods.

Yes, the Russian government is trying hard to heap as much misery as possible upon the Ukrainians. And the Moldovans, for that matter... Not sure what they're trying to achieve with this. Winning hearts and minds, anyone ...?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 40):
And the economic situation isn't even bad at the moment. This is going to get very ugly very soon.

It has been bad for most of the last 20 years. Yes, the next 1-2 years will be tough, the coming winter in particular. The difference is, Ukrainians now have hope. There was no hope under Yanukovych.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 40):
While the majority voted for his impeachment (328 votes), 338 votes were required (3/4 of the Rada, that consists of 450 representatives). I am not even going to touch other points like an official charge of a crime to commence impeachment procedures.

The guy had fled (along with a significan part of the parliament) and was not carrying out his duties. It may have been not entirely clean from a stricly legal point of view, but it was a morally sound decision. As you remark, Ukrainians generally do not question whether it was the "right" decision...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 40):
And we still don't know who killed protestors and police. And will likely never know, there have been no investigations much less independent ones. But there are plenty of individuals that did a brief investigation and I think there is more than reasonable doubt that the events happened as the current leadership says they did. But they aren't even bothering to investigate anything anyways.


The investigations have been, and are, ongoing.

By and large it is known who shot whom. The demonstrators were mostly killed by special forces who had been ordered to do so. However, the walls along Instytutska Street are full with bullet marks. Some of the special forces were clearly only pretending to be carrying out their orders and were shooting at the walls. Makes it difficult to punish individuals...

Those same special forces are now probably defending Ukraine in the east.

The snipers who, according to unconfirmed rumors, were shooting from rooftops at both sides, have not been identified as far as I know. If you are keen to find out, you will need to interrogate Victor and Alexander Yanukovych, both of whom are in Russia ...

Some police were shot by armed protesters.
 
tu204
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:10 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 43):
However, in my experience with respect to this conflict, the Ukrainian authorities bend the truth a lot less than the Kremlin or the rebels. Ukraine has a free press, an uncensured internet, and a vibrant civic society. That seriously limits the authorities' scope for lying ...

Let's just agree to disagree on the point of who is doing the shooting/damage.  
There's probably not much chance of us coming to a consensus for a while at least.
I won't until I see some concrete proof from an independent investigation and you won't because you just don't believe anything outside of what it being reported.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 43):
the people put Tymoshenko in her place

I was pleasantly surprised by that. Not all hope is lost.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 43):
Yes, the Russian government is trying hard to heap as much misery as possible upon the Ukrainians. And the Moldovans, for that matter...

Russian government isn't trying hard to heap misery. If the Russian government "tried hard" we could do one simple thing: Bring the quota of residence permits/work permits to Ukranian citizens to 0, that would send about a million Ukranians home and further lower Ukraine's GDP by several billion that they send home .  
Then we could also declare sanctions on Ukranian imports/exports and send all the Ukranian refugees packing.

All that was done was two simple things that had to be done:
1) Ukraine is now kindly asked to pay market rates for gas (and pay what they owe before they recieve any more).
and
2) Import fees on Ukranian goods due to Ukraine's free trade agreement with the E.U. Very obvious move as this free trade agreement contradicts the one with Russia. This was known well in advance.
Furthermore, unlike Moldova and Georgia who actually bothered to discuss with the Ministry of Finance the situation and deals were reached. The situation will be closely monitored to only impose duties on goods coming from the EU through these countries to Russia.
But as we can see the new leadership in Kiev has absolutely no clue what they are doing economically and instead of dialogue want to throw around anti-Russian sentiment.
So they can blame themselves for the outcome (but of course they will blame Russia)  
Quoting Scipio (Reply 43):
Yes, the next 1-2 years will be tough, the coming winter in particular.

I'm afraid it will be much longer than 2 years. Please note that other than "Украина - це Европа" there is no actual long term plan on how to get out of the economic mess. And keep in mind that the billions they are recieving are not grants, but loans.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 43):
Ukrainians now have hope

I really don't see where you see any hope here...

Quoting Scipio (Reply 43):
There was no hope under Yanukovych.

Agreed, and he had to go. But instead of shooting themselves in the foot so early on, the new kids on the block should have thought things through a little better.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 43):
guy had fled

Completely irrelevant. Lets look at what the constituion has to say about this:

Quoting Ukranian Constituion]
Article 108
The President of Ukraine exercises his or her powers until the assumption of office by the newly-elected President of Ukraine.

The powers of the President of Ukraine terminate prior to the expiration of term in cases of:

resignation;
inability to exercise his or her powers for reasons of health;
removal from office by the procedure of impeachment;
death.[/quote]
There is no case of "he fled" in there. Obviously "fleeing" constitutes a deriliction of duty, which leads to the procedure of impeachment as outlined in Article 111, which as we agreed upon earlier WAS NOT CARRIED OUT.

[quote=Scipio
(Reply 43):
It may have been not entirely clean from a stricly legal point of view

It was not merely "not clean", it was completely illegal.
The slogan during the uprising was "Украина - це Европа", however by their actions it shows that "Украина - це Африка" would be more proper.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 43):
As you remark, Ukrainians generally do not question whether it was the "right" decision...

Well yes, most Ukranians I spoke to say the same as you said above "He fled, he was impeached". The fact that he wasn't actually impeached doesn't cross their minds and is not widely stated in the Ukranian media.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
User avatar
pylon101
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:50 am

Okay. Ten days since the information was downloaded.
I am wondering when transcripts of conversations in the cockpit will be released.
Due to the issue of the route change and confiscation of traffic control records, those transcripts are extremely important.

This air disaster is different. It has contributed into landslide changes in the world.
I hope that the Dutch Safety Board will release the transcripts next week.
Though considering the political consequences....I am not sure.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Sun Aug 03, 2014 2:56 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 44):
Let's just agree to disagree on the point of who is doing the shooting/damage.

I don't think we need to. We both agree that killing civilians is wrong, don't we?
And we're both smart people who base our opinions on facts, aren't we?

Where we differ, is in how we perceive the credibility of various sources: you seem to deem the statements of the Russian authorities and media much more credible than I do, and I find the statements of Ukrainian authorities and media much more credible than you do.

In my case, this is based on experience. Having been first hand at events in Ukraine reported subsequently by Russian and Ukrainian media and commented on by the authorities of both countries, I know who was closer to the truth...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 44):

I was pleasantly surprised by that. Not all hope is lost.
Quoting tu204 (Reply 44):
I really don't see where you see any hope here...

You're contradicting yourself  

In Ukraine, much more has been achieved over the last 5 months, in terms of reforms and fighting corruption, than in the last 5 years. During the 3 years under Yanukovych, the country generally moved backward...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 44):
Agreed, and he had to go. But instead of shooting themselves in the foot so early on, the new kids on the block should have thought things through a little better.

I think you're being quite unfair here. The "new kids" (Yatsenyuk and his government in particular) have done an impressive job in very difficult circumstances (notably, foreign aggression).

Quoting tu204 (Reply 44):
It was not merely "not clean", it was completely illegal.

The Constitution did not foresee a situation in which the President, a significant part of Parliament, and most of the Government would flee the country all at the same time, after having plundered it and essentially committed High Treason.

The spirit of the Constitution was followed, the letter was impossible to follow and there was no reasonable alternative.

What should they have done? Invite Yanukovych and his cronies to come back to impeach and imprison themselves and each other?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 44):
The slogan during the uprising was "Украина - це Европа", however by their actions it shows that "Украина - це Африка" would be more proper.

I strongly disagree with this, although granted Yanukovych behaved in many ways like an African dictator.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 44):
I'm afraid it will be much longer than 2 years. Please note that other than "Украина - це Европа" there is no actual long term plan on how to get out of the economic mess.

Economic integration with the EU, and adopting EU standards and regulations, is a long term plan and it is a good one.
Ukraine has an IMF program, which is essentially a plan to stabilize its economy and restore growth.

The fight against the curse of corruption has started in earnest, and should deliver economic benefits very soon.

Recovering assets stolen by the Yanukovych gang will take time, but will also help.

I'm pretty confident that Ukraine will turn the corner within the next 2 years. The country is full of untapped and underdeveloped potential. Simply removing the economic mismanagement, incompetence, kleptocracy and pervasive corruption of the Yanukovych gang should do a lot to unleash this potential.


So, where is Russia going? To economic autarky, international isolation, and constant warfare on its borders?

There was a time of hope not so long ago. Remember Medvedev's "Россия, вперед!" (Russia, forward!)?
http://kremlin.ru/news/5413 (Can't find an English version)

Then Putin decided to return to the Presidency and ever since the main policy line seems to have been "Россия, назад!" (Russia, backward!) ...


What a pity...

[Edited 2014-08-03 08:14:41]

[Edited 2014-08-03 08:29:07]
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12472
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Sun Aug 03, 2014 3:30 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 40):
That being said, I don't see it as that big of a deal on this side. Russia subsidized the Ukranian economy by over $200bln over the last 20 years. Lets let the EU and US have their turn at feeding Ukraine. This money can be better utilised at home.

This is an interesting point, once the civil war is over, who is going to pay to fix Ukraine, it's a far far bigger mess than Southern Europe ever was, it makes Greece look like Germany, it's a cesspit of corruption that makes the Chinese and Russians look like kindergarten kids.

You know they are going to go cap in hand to the EU and US, it'll take hundreds of billions of Euros to sort this country out, even then how are you going to change the corruption which blights everyday life, it's so ingrained I doubt it can ever be changed, which will forever doom Ukraine. I think the EU and US will throw a token amount at them, then cut them loose which will push them back towards Russia.
 
GDB
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:55 pm

God, they are still finding bodies.
If there is one thing that perhaps encapsulates the whole tawdry, desperate attempt at a reaffirmation of some kind of lost national 'greatness' that is Putin's semi proxy war in Ukraine, it is perhaps that in the heart of Europe in the 21st century, bodies are still being found from an air crash more than two weeks ago, that did not plunge into an ocean, or rainforest, or hard to access desert.
Because in large part Vlad the puppeteer cannot fully control the forces he unleashed in a fit of pique.

Early on fragmentation damage was found in parts of the fuselage, including the forward area, hardly compatible with a heat seeking SA)">AA-8 missile going up an engine.
Very compatible with a system like a SA-11.
(Are Putin and his servile 'media' still pushing the SU-25 as culprit, or a Ukrainian SA-11, or both?)
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12472
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Aug 04, 2014 8:48 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 48):
Because in large part Vlad the puppeteer cannot fully control the forces he unleashed in a fit of pique.

Since he didn't unleash them how is he supposed to control them?
 
tu204
Posts: 2022
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:17 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 46):
Economic integration with the EU, and adopting EU standards and regulations, is a long term plan and it is a good one.

Again, I don't see where the benefit is for Ukranians.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 46):
I strongly disagree with this, although granted Yanukovych behaved in many ways like an African dictator.

Government overthrow is something that usually happens in Africa, but yes, Yanukovitch behaved in many ways like an African dictator. So it fits pretty well.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 46):
The Constitution did not foresee a situation in which the President, a significant part of Parliament, and most of the Government would flee the country all at the same time, after having plundered it and essentially committed High Treason.

The spirit of the Constitution was followed, the letter was impossible to follow and there was no reasonable alternative.

What should they have done? Invite Yanukovych and his cronies to come back to impeach and imprison themselves and each other?

So just throw due process and do whatever works without trying to do things properly. As I said above...
They didn't even TRY to impeach him properly.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 46):
international isolation

International? From whom? The E.U. and the U.S. are not the world. And even then, I wouldn't say it is that bad of a thing to isolate yourself from these two.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 46):
constant warfare on its borders

Not our fault we have incoherent neighbours. And by constant you mean two conflicts in 6 years?

Quoting Scipio (Reply 46):
Then Putin decided to return to the Presidency and ever since the main policy line seems to have been "Россия, назад!" (Russia, backward!) ...

I don't see where we have moved backward.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 46):
What a pity...

Fortunately most Russians would disagree with you. But of course you can judge my life and my surroundings from Belgium better than I can living here.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:43 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 50):
Again, I don't see where the benefit is for Ukranians.

It is not a requirement that you see the benefit for Ukrainians. It is sufficient that the Ukrainians see the benefit for themselves. The Ukrainians have made their choice, and they are willing to fight for it.

Am I right to conclude that you also do not see any benefit in democracy, the rule of law, and freedom of speech, to name just a few things that Ukrainians hope to achieve by associating themselves with the EU?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 50):
Government overthrow is something that usually happens in Africa, but yes, Yanukovitch behaved in many ways like an African dictator. So it fits pretty well.

I'm not sure why you feel a need to insult Ukraine. In essence, Ukraine's problems -- the ones people revolted against on Maydan -- are the same as Russia's problems.

Something for you to watch (Vice News -- The last days of the revolution):
(WARNING: violent scenes, dead bodies, etc... )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7e6B64Iqqg

Quoting tu204 (Reply 50):
So just throw due process and do whatever works without trying to do things properly. As I said above...
They didn't even TRY to impeach him properly.

The world has moved on. Pretty much every country in the world recognizes Poroshenko as the legitimate president of Ukraine. Only some weirdos in your country keep on repeating the fairytale that Yanukovych is the legitimate president of Ukraine.

Get over it...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 50):
International? From whom? The E.U. and the U.S. are not the world. And even then, I wouldn't say it is that bad of a thing to isolate yourself from these two.

I'm very sorry you think that way. For the last 25 years, I have been hoping that Russia would become an integrated part of Europe. After the events in Ukraine of the last 9 months, I understand that this will probably not happen in my lifetime.

Sure, you don't need the EU or the US. Neither do you need Canada, Australia, or Japan. Oh, and forget about tiny Malaysia.

You have very strong allies in Cuba, Syria, and North Korea. Good luck with them!

Quoting tu204 (Reply 50):
Not our fault we have incoherent neighbours.

When you have problems with all of your neighbours, surely it's the neighbours' fault...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 50):
I don't see where we have moved backward.

Let me give you just a couple of examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCxf9MtTpsw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tE1pul90Uew

Quoting tu204 (Reply 50):
Fortunately most Russians would disagree with you. But of course you can judge my life and my surroundings from Belgium better than I can living here.

You don't seem to have caught on yet on how well I know Russia.

Anyway, don't throw stones when you live in a glass house. You and your president seem to have very strong opinions and judgments on how Ukrainians should live...

Meanwhile, Ukrainian women are weeping for their dead fathers, husbands and sons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjJsJPCZAto

Killed by Putin's aggression...

Putin has, during the last 9 months, created for himself 40 million enemies in Ukraine, and at least one in Belgium...

ПТН ПНХ

The word is spreading:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KZe_rma8cg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin_huilo
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
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RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:44 am

The issues that led to the tragedy of MH-17 could have all been avoided; the loss of life was completely unnecessary.
Why did it happen then?

Because the big powers just simply can't leave their mitts out of small countries.
So what is or would have been the solution then?
Get Obama and Putin together, plus the rest of the leaders of the countries involved, who may have an interest or stake in this, and lock them up; like what the Vatican does when they elect a new Pope.

They can have as much access to their advisors and information as they reckon they need, however, any and all of that can only go 'IN'. Information or any of the people participating cannot come 'OUT'.
This includes anything for the media. Maybe a daily three-minute update for TV news would be okay.
However long it takes, our dear leaders should not be let out - until and unless they have reached a full and binding agreement that is acceptable to all.
This matter would be sorted out in days, if not hours.

Of course, nothing like this would ever happen. Why not?
Because, simple, our so-called diplomats and our politicians are not fair dinkum..!
It's far too profitable for their masters to have a bit of a war here and there.
 
tu204
Posts: 2022
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:08 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 51):
I'm very sorry you think that way.

Doesnt matter what you think or feel. I do not want to be asociated with what your idea of "Europe" is in its current form. Neither do the majority of Russians.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 51):
Let me give you just a couple of examples:

Good. Want to provoke people in my country? Get hauled away by police..rather gently may I add.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 51):
You don't seem to have caught on yet on how well I know Russia.

You clearly don't.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 51):
Killed by Putin's aggression...

Go on. Maybe if you repeat it enough it will come true. It clearly has in the heads of some people.  
Quoting Scipio (Reply 51):
ПТН ПНХ

After you  
Quoting Scipio (Reply 51):
Sure, you don't need the EU or the US. Neither do you need Canada, Australia, or Japan. Oh, and forget about tiny Malaysia.

You have very strong allies in Cuba, Syria, and North Korea. Good luck with them!

If that is your knowledge of georgaphy and your perception of current affairs, I am sorry, but there is nothing to really discuss with you anymore.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov

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