Scipio
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:08 am

New graffiti in Moscow, near the Kremlin:

http://korrespondent.net/world/34021...iavylys-nadpysy-krym-eto-ukrayna#1

The "Made in Russia" graffiti does not need elaboration. The other slogans call for the release of political prisoners and say that "Crimea is Ukraine".

New billboards in Ukraine:

http://www.061.ua/news/592082

It's a poem using foul language.

Censured translation (without trying to keep the rhyme):

You wanted to steal territories
But you will be remembered for something else
For history you turned out to be
Nothing more than a little [huilo]

Don't even dream, [curseword]


The background of the billboard represents the Ukrainian flag: a blue sky over yellow wheatfields (or, in some representations, sunflower fields, as in the area of the MH17 crash).

Side note: This is the modern interpretation of Ukraine's flag. Some claim that the flag was originally inverted and represented the golden domes of Kyiv's monasteries shining over the blue water of the Dnipro river.


New film produced by the Russian opposition.

Who shot down the Boeing over Donbass?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM6YUp9SNxU

The film deliberately only uses footage of Putin's declarations, declarations by his allies, and news from mass media that are under Putin's control (henceforth, "Putin TV"), with the purpose of showing the inconsistencies in their coverage.

The five basic points:

1. Putin TV regularly, and proudly, reported about the rebels shooting down Ukrainian military helicopters and aircraft, and about how many Ukrainians were killed in the process... [Personal remark: these shooting-downs, of course, happened with hardware that was purchased in the local grocery store...]
2. Putin TV proudly reported the shooting down of a Ukrainian Air Force An-26, by (DNR) rebels and over rebel-controlled Torez, on July 17. The time and place of this reported shooting down correspond exactly with the time and place of MH17's shooting down.
3. In the run-up to the shooting down of MH17, Putin TV and Putin's propagandist Sergey Kurginyan proudly announced that the rebels had captured a Buk system from the Ukrainian armed forces. According to Kurginyan, the system was damaged, but was repaired by the "heroic rebels". Another Donetsk rebel leader confirmed that the rebels received a Buk system, but according to him it came from Luhansk oblast (i.e., from the direction of the Russian border).
4. After the shooting down, Putin's propaganda machine claimed that the Boeing was shot down by a Ukrainian Su-25. However, a Russian expert interviewed by Putin TV bluntly said that this explanation is "just not serious", as the Su-25 is an attack aircraft that doesn't have the capability to shoot down aircraft at an altitude of 10,000+ meters.
5. Russia's Ambassador to the UN, Vitaliy Churkin, explained that the rebels were confused, and therefore their shooting down of MH17 was not an act of terrorism, but simply the accidental result of their confusion...


Finally, this is hilarious, but I cannot translate it.
Putin's jester Zhirinovskiy called Ukraine's Minister of Internal Affairs Arsen Avakov to tell him that he is in deep trouble.

First, he reaches an answering machine. Later he speaks with Avakov's deputy, who tells him that he will be glad to meet with Zhirinovskiy in court (preferably in The Hague). He also says that the Ukrainian people will be glad to live in peace with the Russian people, as before, once Crimea has been returned to Ukraine and (essentially) after Putin has disappeared from the scene.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nYVX7hPD-s

[Edited 2014-08-06 18:20:11]
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12484
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:20 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 51):
Am I right to conclude that you also do not see any benefit in democracy, the rule of law, and freedom of speech, to name just a few things that Ukrainians hope to achieve by associating themselves with the EU?

The Uklranian people clearly don't bellieve in democracy, otherwise they would have waiting until the next election and voted in a new government.

The change in culture for Ukraine to ever have even the remotest chance of joining the EU is akin to you flying to Mars. I have no doubts that Ukraine will ever meet the entry requirements, the country is far to corrupt, corruption is endemic, it's ingrained, it's an intrinsic part of daily life. This mess is going to cost the EU dearly, do you want your tax dollars wasted on a money pit like Ukraine? I don't.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 54):
"Crimea is Ukraine".

Try telling that to someone living in Crimea, they'll most likely punch you in the face.
 
bluesky9
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:26 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:01 am

Leading up to EU sanctions the US obviously has had a lot of media spinners working on the MH17 incident doing their best to manipulate the emotions of those impacted in order to milk this tragedy for political gains. All for what? What exactly is the US interest in the Ukrainian region? The US seems indifferent to many other conflicts around the world. What makes this region so important for them? One reason is that if Ukraine joins NATO, the US will try to position nuclear weapons and a nuclear shield on the boarder of Russia. Another factor that has been discussed is that the US want to undermine Russia's moves to begin pricing its oil in currencies other than the US dollar.

The status of the US dollar as a reserve currency is underpinned by the pricing oil in US dollars and is an enormous benefit to the US. It means that holders of US dollar bonds like Japan, China, Saudi Arabia and indeed the rest of the world, bear a lot of the costs of QE and US inflation. It is precisely the transmission of this inflation to the world economy that has precipitated the increase in political unrest around the world. The US basically gets a free ride from the world's US dollar trade float. If you look back at past conflicts, the US attacked Iraq soon after Iraq said they would price Iraqi oil in Euros, Libya's civil war erupted soon after Libya said they would create a new African currency to price Libyan oil. There have been reports that the US has stirred up protests in Venezuela after they nationalized their oil industry and as they gradually increase the amount of oil priced in other currencies.

US financial sanctions and extraterritorial laws are a unique weapon the US has because of US dollar's status as a reserve currency. However, the overuse of these tools has meant that the world's largest powers are now beginning to adapt and limit that power. It might take ten, or even twenty years but the path is inevitable. Eventually the US dollar will be one currency among a few major world currencies. Unfortunately, there has never been a peaceful transfer of power of this magnitude before. If the US cannot adapt to the new emerging world order, it is likely that sometime in the next decade there will be a major conflict

There is another factor at play in the US activity in the Ukraine, and that is that the US is at a turning point. They have spent heavily on wars that have largely been failures by any reasonable measure. They are an indebted nation, with gradually decreasing living standards and an increasing disparity between rich and poor. Each year the US economy becomes a smaller proportion of the world economy. US military power is indeed unrivaled, but it is costly. Generally the US only engages with militarily weak countries of farmers and shepherds. The US military is an ineffective instrument of foreign policy. Good for those US companies that profit from wars but bad for world peace and prosperity.

Unless there is some change of heart, a showdown with Russia seems like a bad idea. The most likely outcome now, is Ukraine broken up into small harmless and poor states. Escalating sanctions, hurting Europe, Russia and the US and the world economy, with the result that Russia will become significantly less restrained and more self reliant in the future and stimulating increased trade between Russia and countries not involved in sanctions.

[Edited 2014-08-07 02:35:52]
 
ual777
Posts: 1641
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:46 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 56):
Leading up to EU sanctions the US obviously has had a lot of media spinners working on the MH17 incident doing their best to manipulate the emotions of those impacted in order to milk this tragedy for political gains. All for what? What exactly is the US interest in the Ukrainian region? The US seems indifferent to many other conflicts around the world. What makes this region so important for them? One reason is that if Ukraine joins NATO, the US will try to position nuclear weapons and a nuclear shield on the boarder of Russia. Another factor that has been discussed is that the US want to undermine Russia's moves to begin pricing its oil in currencies other than the US dollar.

What makes this an issue for both the US and the EU is Russian aggression. At what point does it stop?

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 56):


The status of the US dollar as a reserve currency is underpinned by the pricing oil in US dollars and is an enormous benefit to the US. It means that holders of US dollar bonds like Japan, China, Saudi Arabia and indeed the rest of the world, bear a lot of the costs of QE and US inflation. It is precisely the transmission of this inflation to the world economy that has precipitated the increase in political unrest around the world. The US basically gets a free ride from the world's US dollar trade float. If you look back at past conflicts, the US attacked Iraq soon after Iraq said they would price Iraqi oil in Euros, Libya's civil war erupted soon after Libya said they would create a new African currency to price Libyan oil. There have been reports that the US has stirred up protests in Venezuela after they nationalized their oil industry and as they gradually increase the amount of oil priced in other currencies.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Libya's nrest had been brewing for decades and Venezuela has nobody to blame but themselves. Their program of hostile business and currency policies have tanked the economy. The chavistas are VERY unpopular.



What is Russia going to do against the EU and US? Any armed conflict would be costly but winnable for the west. I dont think it will come to that, but the Russian expansionism needs to be stopped. Putin detects weakness in Obama and the US in general due to 2 grinding wars, but this can prove to be a disasterous assumption. Likewise, Russia will lose the sanctions game. Just as they control the natural gas tap, if they stop selling they cant take the financial hit. Its really a zero sum road they are starting to roll down.

The sensible solution here is for everyone to pull back but it cant happen right now. To much chest thumping has come from the Kremlin, and they have really made Ukraine much more friendly to western influence.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
tu204
Posts: 2026
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:16 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 56):

Agree wholeheartedly with your comment.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 55):
Try telling that to someone living in Crimea, they'll most likely punch you in the face.

True. However if the poster you were replying to did actually go to Crimea, did actually say that and did get punched in the face, his explanation would be "A FSB/GRU/SVR Agent sent to Crimea punched me in the face!" 

And on a related note, today Russia imposed an embargo on food imports from countries that imposed sanctions on Russia. 10% of argicultural exports from the EU were destined for the Russian Federation. The embaro takes effect immediately. The embargo will be in effect for one year but Prime Minister Medvedev stated that if countries effected by this embargo decide to engage in constructive dialogue, the embargo may be shortened.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28687172
I like this statement especially: The European Commission said the Russian embargo was "clearly politically motivated".
Damn right it is! What did they think the outcome of sanctions against Russia would be?

[Edited 2014-08-07 11:21:47]
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12484
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 57):
Any armed conflict would be costly but winnable for the west.

No it wouldn't, Russian doctrine is to go nuclear if attacked, so I very much doubt anyone wins in a nuclear conflict.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 58):
And on a related note, today Russia imposed an embargo on food imports from countries that imposed sanctions on Russia. 10% of argicultural exports from the EU were destined for the Russian Federation.

I'm pretty pissed Norway joined the sanctions, Norway had a very good relationship with Russia, issues like the Barets Sea and Svalbard were resolved recently. So far the sanctions haven't effected what I sell into Russia, although some of my customers have had deals cancelled.
 
ual777
Posts: 1641
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:04 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 59):

IF it came down to an armed conflict Russia won't go nuclear. That would be pure insanity.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
BEG2IAH
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:42 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:37 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 60):
IF it came down to an armed conflict Russia won't go nuclear. That would be pure insanity.

What makes you think that?
Flying at the cruising altitude is (mostly) boring. I wish all flights were nothing but endless take offs and landings every 10 minutes or so.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12180
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:03 pm

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 56):
the US will try to position nuclear weapons

Nonsense, ballistic missiles have been invented half a century ago.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 56):
Russia and the US and the world economy, with the result that Russia will become significantly less restrained and more self reliant in the future and stimulating increased trade between Russia and countries not involved in sanctions.

Why focus on the US ? Who is stirring a conflict in Eastern Ukraine according to you ? Who shot down an airliner ?

As for self reliant, do you mean like North Korea ? When Russia was a bigger country called the USSR, self reliance failed, why should it work now ? More importantly, many people at the top in Russia are very rich and are not going to like that self reliance idea.

Quoting bluesky9 (Reply 56):
All for what? What exactly is the US interest in the Ukrainian region?

Not much, that's why they're using relatively light sanctions, not heavy ones, nor sending troops or anything like that.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 58):
10% of argicultural exports from the EU were destined for the Russian Federation. The embaro takes effect immediately.

And the most affected by this will be the average Russian that will find less fruits and chicken at the supermarket and remember the good old times of crumbling USSR.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:23 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 55):
Try telling that to someone living in Crimea, they'll most likely punch you in the face.

Crimea, March 8th, 2014:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPvF_dqwMZk

Sevastopol, March 28th, 2014:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M5c9E2zMHHs

Explanation: The film shows the changing of the flag at Sevastopol's National University of Nuclear Energy and Industry, after Russia's occupation of Crimea. First, the Ukrainian flag is lowered while the Ukrainian national anthem is playing. When the anthem is interrupted, the young people on the right (presumably students) continue singing it and subsequently shout pro-Ukrainian slogans. When the Russian flag is raised accompanied by the tunes of the Russian national anthem, the young crowd demonstratively leaves with their Ukrainian flags, showing their contempt for the occupiers.

The Dean of the university is left without most of his students, and complains to the older (and obviously more pro-Russian) crowd on the left how ill-mannered young people are...


Yalta, May 30, 2014:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlCvaDB2_WQ

Explanation: The film shows the end-year ceremony at a high school in Yalta. The Russian national anthem is played. Nobody sings along. Then some of the students start singing the Ukrainian national anthem, to general applause.

The (teenage) students were subsequently punished by the occupiers...


I've been in Crimea several times, for business and leisure. It used to be a hospitable, pleasant, and safe place. Nobody ever punched me in my face there. I talked to many locals, and often asked them whether they considered themselves Russian or Ukrainian. For the most part, the answer was "Ukrainian".

The only place in Crimea that felt predominantly Russian and where I observed some hostility toward Ukraine was Sevastopol. This had, of course, a lot to do with the fact that Russia's Black Sea fleet was based there and, as a result, tens of thousands of Russian citizens (military and their families, retired military, ...) lived there.

The capital mistake that the Ukrainians made was to allow Russia to continue to base its Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol. They should have kicked them out in the 1990s...

The Russian invasion of Crimea started out of Sevastopol...


Nowawadays, under Russian occupation, Crimea is neither hospitable nor safe. As a Belgian, I now need a visa to go there. You can't fly there from any civilized country, getting there by car requires waiting for many hours in line at what the Russians claim is a "border crossing". Crime has soared. The 2014 tourist season has failed. The economy is in the dolldrums. Prices have skyrocketed. Many basic products are scarce, as Russia has banned the import of a lot of Ukrainian goods (especially food products). There are water shortages and electricity outages. Freedom of speech is a distant memory. Respect for human rights is deteriorating rapidly. Ukrainians and Tatars are being discriminated against. Ukrainian language teachers have been fired. Not much is materializing of Russia's lofty promises of major investments and economic development. The only sectors of the Crimean economy that are booming are gambling, prostitution, and organized crime...

Welcome to Russian-occupied territory...
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:48 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 58):
And on a related note, today Russia imposed an embargo on food imports from countries that imposed sanctions on Russia. 10% of argicultural exports from the EU were destined for the Russian Federation. The embaro takes effect immediately. The embargo will be in effect for one year but Prime Minister Medvedev stated that if countries effected by this embargo decide to engage in constructive dialogue, the embargo may be shortened.


The agricultural exports from Australia to Russia are only worth $400 Million AUD per year... Australia is already looking to strengthen trade in other regions - which it will do. It is common knowledge that some of these banned imports are needed in Russia because demand outweighs local supply. I hope this embargo has an effect on Putin's own people when prices for certain agricultural products increases as supply drops and, moreover, when there are shortages of certain food items. Hopefully, once the agricultural products that Australia (and others) used to export to Russia find a new place to go it will be too late for Russia to reverse this embargo and Russia will need to find new sources to import agricultural products from. It will serve Putin's Russia right once they feel the impact of the embargo their own megalomaniac leader created  Smile

[Edited 2014-08-07 20:26:13]
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
tu204
Posts: 2026
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:37 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 64):
Explanation: The film shows the end-year ceremony at a high school in Yalta. The Russian national anthem is played. Nobody sings along. Then some of the students start singing the Ukrainian national anthem, to general applause.

I realise I said I wouldn't get in to a discussion with you. I am not.
I just want to point out that if you keep on using fake videos or misrepresented ones, it doesn't add credibility to your statements.
The video you posted is filmed in 2011. Just look at the saches on the students with "2011" visible.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 64):
Nowawadays, under Russian occupation, Crimea is neither hospitable nor safe. As a Belgian, I now need a visa to go there. You can't fly there from any civilized country, getting there by car requires waiting for many hours in line at what the Russians claim is a "border crossing". Crime has soared. The 2014 tourist season has failed. The economy is in the dolldrums. Prices have skyrocketed. Many basic products are scarce, as Russia has banned the import of a lot of Ukrainian goods (especially food products). There are water shortages and electricity outages. Freedom of speech is a distant memory. Respect for human rights is deteriorating rapidly. Ukrainians and Tatars are being discriminated against. Ukrainian language teachers have been fired. Not much is materializing of Russia's lofty promises of major investments and economic development. The only sectors of the Crimean economy that are booming are gambling, prostitution, and organized crime...

What is worrying is that you actually believe the stuff coming out of your mouth...

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 65):
The agricultural exports from Australia to Russia are only worth $400 Million AUD per year... Australia is already looking to strengthen trade in other regions - which it will do. It is common knowledge that some of these banned imports are needed in Russia because demand outweighs local supply. I hope this embargo has an effect on Putin's own people when prices for certain agricultural products increases as supply drops and, moreover, when there are shortages of certain food items. Hopefully, once the agricultural products that Australia (and others) used to export to Russia find a new place to go it will be too late for Russia to reverse this embargo and Russia will need to find new sources to import agricultural products from. It will serve Putin's Russia right once they feel the impact of the embargo their own megalomaniac leader created

As you mentioned, Russia-Australia trade is insignificant. It won't effect either country so don't worry. It won't effect Russia negatively either so don't get your hopes up. Maybe a temporary increase in prices as products from un-friendly countries are shown the door and products from Latin America are invited in.
Also Russia has the enormous potential in agriculture and right now is getting a kick in the arse to boost production (with government assistance). Our production has been risingly steadily for the last decade and should become self-sufficient in poultry, pork and beef in the next several years.
So the only long-term damage I see here would be to the shortsighted countries that thought their sanctions wouldn't have consequences.

I'd like to hear what Polish and the Baltic states have to say about this as their export to Russia was pretty significant.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 59):
I'm pretty pissed Norway joined the sanctions,

Absolutely short-sighted shoot-yourself-in-the-foot politics. I can't see who Norway was trying to impress.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:53 am

Russia is feeling the heat as we speak. Even Putin will back off, the Oligarks are getting pissed off. Best thing would be oligarks turning on Putin, having his head served on a plate. Kiwi Rob would probably be upset but I can live with that, so can 99% of this world.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12484
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:54 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 60):

IF it came down to an armed conflict Russia won't go nuclear. That would be pure insanity.
Quote:
"Russia reserves the right to use nuclear weapons in response to the use of nuclear and other types of weapons of mass destruction against it or its allies, and also in case of aggression against Russia with the use of conventional weapons when the very existence of the state is threatened."
Quoting Aesma (Reply 62):
And the most affected by this will be the average Russian that will find less fruits and chicken at the supermarket and remember the good old times of crumbling USSR.

You want to tell that to the Norwegian fishing industry, Russia is the single largest consumer of Norwegian seafood, the industry has just been knocked for six.

Russia will source from other countries. They have already announced they will increase imports of dairy products from New Zealand (lucky Russia NZ dairy products are better than most of the product coming from Europe, US and Australia) and more beef from Brazil.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 64):
I talked to many locals, and often asked them whether they considered themselves Russian or Ukrainian. For the most part, the answer was "Ukrainian".

You're making this up, I've been in Crimea yearly since 2007, I've not met many who didn't wish to be Russia again, it was quite a hot topic in most conversations.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 64):
Nowawadays, under Russian occupation, Crimea is neither hospitable nor safe. As a Belgian, I now need a visa to go there.


You've not been so how can you comment? One of my co-workers was there last week, he said the only difference was the flags, everything else is business as usual.

Quoting sweair (Reply 67):
Kiwi Rob would probably be upset but I can live with that, so can 99% of this world.

I couldn't care less if Putin stays or goes, what pissed me off is the hypocrisy of the whole situation, the US and UK invaded a country based on fabricated intelligence and terrorised the locals for years, resulting in sectarian violence and approx 1 million deaths yet nothing happened to them, but we get all up in arms about reclaiming a former territory which never wanted to be a former territory and the accidental shooting down of a jetliner. Both acts have killed a minute number of people compared to the US's actions in Iraq. GWB and Blair are far bigger criminals than Putin by a long shot. I think most western people have bought into the propaganda that whatever Russia does is wrong and whatever the US does is right.

[Edited 2014-08-08 02:56:26]
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:58 pm

Much info about the situation in Crimea is available from official and independent sources.

For example, here are two reports by Human Rights Watch dating from March:

On human rights violations during the Russian invasion and in the run-up to the so-called "referendum":

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/03/14/c...acks-disappearances-illegal-forces

On the abduction, torture and murder of Tatar activist Reshat Ametov:

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/03/18/crimea-disappeared-man-found-killed


Then there is this June UN report, Chapter VI (p. 48-55) of which is devoted to the situation in Crimea:

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15June2014.pdf


The incident in Yalta shown in one of the Youtube films I linked to above is not fake and does not date from 2011. It has been well documented in the Ukrainian press, and some of the students involved have been interviewed by Ukrainian mass media. The incident took place in Yalta's Gymnasium #15 named after Stepan Rudansky.

On social network vk.com, someone who claims to be one of the singing students provided some background, posted pictures of the students taken on the same day, and complains because he has heard that the director and teachers of the school are being fired over the incident:

http://vk.com/wall-49740932_399074

The students involved were called back from their holidays and forced to write explanatory notes on why they sung the Ukrainian national anthem. I have not been able to verify whether any of the school's staff was indeed fired over the incident.


In spite of what a couple of posters in this thread seem to think, I am not the kind of person who makes things up or posts fake/false materials.
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6666
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:51 pm

Oops . . . looks like the gloss is starting to fade in Crimea:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28688478
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12484
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:01 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 66):
I can't see who Norway was trying to impress.

Wanting to play with the big boys I think, except the govt has thrown the Norwegian fishing industry under the bus and will have problems with employment in Northern Norway due to this.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 69):
Much info about the situation in Crimea is available from official and independent sources.

I was talking to a customer of mine this afternoon, he told me about the following fact that appears to have been completely ignored by the media.

January 20th 1991 the Crimean people voted to leave the Ukranian SSR and reform the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic, this had near unanimous approval 94%. Following the referendum, the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union passed the law "On Restoration of the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialistic Republic" on 12 February 1991. By this law it became independent of Ukraine. Ukraine failed to recognise this law when they left the Soviet Union on the 21st December 1991. In 1995 they removed Crimea's autonomous status and removed the office of the President of this State. So in reality the Crimea has been occupied unlawfully by a foreign power since December 1991. Russia was just getting back what was rightfully there's.

Quote:
On January 20, 1991, Crimeans voted to restore their ties with Russia by almost the same percentage (93.2%) we saw in today’s election—where, according to the BBC, 93% of Crimean voters once again voted Russian.

That’s a remarkably consistent vote, considering what a lot of chaos and poverty have encompassed the region since 1991. Back then, of course, no one in the West took the results seriously, because everyone knew the USSR was evil and anyone defecting from it was good. But it might be worth remembering that election now–because with Russian economic and military power backing them, the Crimeans’ vote might actually count.

It shouldn’t surprise anyone that Crimea voted to return to Russia. Even the demographics made that an easy one to predict. According to Ukraine’s own 2001 Census, 58.3% of Crimeans consider themselves Russian, with only 24.3% identifying as Ukranian.
http://pando.com/2014/03/17/the-war-...you-know-about-crimea-is-wrong-er/
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:16 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 61):
It won't effect Russia negatively either so don't get your hopes up.

I'm sure Russians will be able to cope just fine without the food items that they have sanctioned  

Nonetheless, by imposing a type of sanction that in effect limits or curtails access to various food items Putin has, in a sense, imposed a sanction on his own people! What a complete backwards moron! To just call him a megalomaniac is being nice  

There is talk here about about placing similar sanctions on Russian imports to Australia - (Australian total exports to Russia $740 million AUD v. Australian total imports from Russia $1 billion AUD - so like we agree is not that much) - however, as Vodka is included in those imports from Russia I'm sure the Russians won't mind (as won't we) as there will be more Vodka for themselves  
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:01 am

This is hilarious. Here's a news item:

A top separatist leader on Saturday admitted that Ukrainian forces had surrounded Donetsk, the stronghold of Russian-backed rebels, and called for a cease-fire on humanitarian grounds.

Essentially they are saying that they are surrounded and cut off so they ask the Ukrainians to surrender.
The ones who need to put down the guns is them.

The old USSR types were a bit smarter than this I think. They did know when they'd bought the farm.
This Putin thing is just another disaster for the Russian people who have had so many other disasters over the decades and centuries.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:44 am

The rebels realised a while ago that, once the Ukrainian army got it's act together after the chaos in the beginning, they wouldn't stand a chance in the open countryside, where first the village population (mainly Ukrainian speakers) would be hostile to them and where the Ukrainian army could use their advantage of heavy weapons. They learned it for the first time during the battle of Donetzk airport, where there were no civilians around and Ukrainian army could use artillery and attack aircraft to their advantage. Of the rebel dead about thirty were repatriated to Russia.
As a result the rebels withdrew into urban areas, where they were supposed to have the support of the population (in the industrial cities of eastern Ukraine most of the inhabitants are Russian speaking, often from families who moved there from Russia during the Soviet times).
At the same time the civilian population was supposed to act as human shields, preventing the Ukrainian army from using their heavy weapons.
It seems though that the rebels have outstayed their welcome. Even rebel commanders admitted executions.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28619599
Rebel commander Girkin has complained before in his blog that there were not enough russian speaking Ukrainians volunteering for his forces, so that he was forced to use mercenaries and "volunteers", e.g. Cossack militias from Russia and Chechnia.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:38 pm

Thanks for the analysis.

I'm new to the on the ground in Ukraine stuff.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3131
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 58):
As for self reliant, do you mean like North Korea ?

Russia and North Korea...there's a match made in heaven...   
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
tu204
Posts: 2026
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:11 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 67):
I'm sure Russians will be able to cope just fine without the food items that they have sanctioned  

Cope without? Sure, but what is the need?
You do realise that Russian argicultural production has been growing steadily in the past decade and is nearly self-sufficient on this end. You also should realise that Australia, Canada, EU and the US are not the sole suppliers of pigs, beef, poultry and dairy products, right? So placing sanctions against Australia for say beef imports, doesn't mean that no beef will be imported into Russia, it just means that it will come from other (friendlier) sources, like say Brazil and Argentina while Russian domestic production keeps steadily growing towards self-suffiency.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 67):
What a complete backwards moron! To just call him a megalomaniac is being nice  

Please care to elaborate on your point. From my perspective I see a pretty carefully planned out move. Like one where you actually sit down and think about what you are doing and the possible consequences, unlike what the west did with their actions against Russia.
Foreign Minister Lavrov did state back in April that there would be a response to these sanctions. It took a while, but as you can see, the government found a pretty simple mechanism to retaliate without causing too much damage.
Factoring in all of the above, I would say that Putin and the Russian Government are far from megalomaniacs, but western politicians have shown themselves to be very short-sighted at best.

Take Poland and the Baltic states for instance. This whole situation was really none of their concern. But they decided to involve themselves without planning for reprocussions. A sizable portion of their agricultural exports was oriented on Russia.
So do you care to purchase some Polish apples before they all rot trying to find a new buyer?  
Quoting sweair (Reply 62):
Russia is feeling the heat as we speak.

Really? Well I did take a sauna yesterday and it was +30 today, but other than that, nice try.  
Quoting sweair (Reply 62):
Even Putin will back off, the Oligarks are getting pissed off. Best thing would be oligarks turning on Putin, having his head served on a plate.

While excusable for you, the same mistake was made by analysts in the EU and US thinking that putting a bunch of oligarchs on sanctions lists would somehow influence Russia's foreign policy.
Let me be blunt: you're about 10 years too late. This isn't the 90's anymore and Yeltsin with his family is long gone. The oligarchs were rightfully removed from anywhere near to having influence in politics. It is not Putin/Russia/Government that depends on/listens to them, but perhaps the other way around.
To sum things up: Putin and ordninary Russians don't care too much any heat some oligarchs are feeling. This is clearly seen in the reactions to sanctions.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12180
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 72):
You do realise that Russian argicultural production has been growing steadily in the past decade and is nearly self-sufficient on this end.

Russia being a huge country should be able to make enough food for sure, but maybe not everything people got accustomed to, like all kinds of fruits.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 72):
Take Poland and the Baltic states for instance. This whole situation was really none of their concern. But they decided to involve themselves without planning for reprocussions. A sizable portion of their agricultural exports was oriented on Russia.

Well if apparently Russia can be self reliant, they could do it too, don't you think ? Or at least orient their economy away from Russia, thus according their economy and their politics.

Now we'll see how the EU goes about dealing with the gas problem, but I'm not too optimistic as there is no energy plan in the EU, the electric grid is interconnected yet Germany shut down its nuclear plants without even bothering to consult its neighbors (and hypocritically still buying nuclear power from them), now they're dumping wind and solar electricity causing massive trouble, it's a mess.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:53 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 72):
Cope without? Sure, but what is the need?

I don't think we need to discuss this. At this point, the only thing worth discussing is the terms of our divorce.

Russia (under Tsar Vladimir the last) has decided to opt out of Europe. We need to adjust... We need to agree on the terms of our divorce. Beyond that, good luck to you!

Quoting tu204 (Reply 72):
Take Poland and the Baltic states for instance. This whole situation was really none of their concern. But they decided to involve themselves without planning for reprocussions.

I know many Poles and Balts. The way they see things: yes breaking up with Russia will be painful, but allowing Putin to get away with his aggression toward Ukraine is an existential problem for us. If Putin gets away with his attacks on Ukraine, they think that they will be next...

[Edited 2014-08-10 17:20:11]

[Edited 2014-08-10 17:49:45]
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:38 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 68):
This is hilarious. Here's a news item:

A top separatist leader on Saturday admitted that Ukrainian forces had surrounded Donetsk, the stronghold of Russian-backed rebels, and called for a cease-fire on humanitarian grounds.

Essentially they are saying that they are surrounded and cut off so they ask the Ukrainians to surrender.
The ones who need to put down the guns is them.

The Ukrainian forces should not stop - as if the Russians would - talk about double standards. The Ukrainian forces should slaughter them while they have the chance (which is probably what the rebels would do) or at least capture as many as they can and treat them as POWs. The stupidity of some peoples amazes me...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 72):
You also should realise that Australia, Canada, EU and the US are not the sole suppliers of pigs, beef, poultry and dairy products, right?

I had no idea. I thought the only countries in the world were the ones you mentioned... Where are these places called Brazil and Argentina that you mention? They sound interesting...  

On that note, you do realize that Russia is not the sole supplier of the sanctioned items coming out of Russia? As you say - there are plenty of 'friendlier' nations, and let me add, more morally deserving nations, to import such items from   I know you knew that anyway  
Quoting tu204 (Reply 72):
So placing sanctions against Australia for say beef imports, doesn't mean that no beef will be imported into Russia, it just means that it will come from other (friendlier) sources, like say Brazil and Argentina while Russian domestic production keeps steadily growing towards self-suffiency.

Not many nations are 'friendlier' than Australia. At least Australia is not the nation that is invading its neighbor and trying to take back a country that escaped the dictatorship of the USSR... Oh, the irony...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 72):
Please care to elaborate on your point. From my perspective I see a pretty carefully planned out move. Like one where you actually sit down and think about what you are doing and the possible consequences, unlike what the west did with their actions against Russia.

So the shooting down of MH17 was carefully planned? Putin sat down and thought it out? Because, you do know that that and the way putin handled the aftermath is what lead to the sanctions? Oh, I forgot, Russia can do as it pleases without any consequences... I wonder how Russia would act if it was an Aeroflop that got shot down?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 72):
I would say that Putin and the Russian Government are far from megalomaniacs, but western politicians have shown themselves to be very short-sighted at best.

I would expect such a comment given the flag on your profile, but I can't blame you - I too would be fearful to criticize the government of the country I lived in with the reputation that the dictator putin has (eg: Pussy Riot). I don't blame you - I would not want kgb agents coming around to my place and paying me a visit...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7021
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:24 am

About these Russian food sanctions against EU/US, it is more internal Russian politics than anything else. Putin knows as well as we all do that Russia has the potential to be the world's largest exporter of practically all kinds of food, maybe except coconuts. And he is p*$$ed because he has been unable to encourage his people to produce even their own food instead of drinking vodka. In that respect he has had as little success as all other Russian leaders during the last one hundred years. It is rediculous that Russians have to eat apples from the Netherlands and oranges from California.

Export to Russia has been a mixed experience. Sometimes for a period it has been really good business, but there has been so many on-off situations with sudden Russian import restrictions in an attempt to encourage Russian production. Many exporters have after a good period invested heavily in the Russian market, only to be hit by restrictions the next day. In reality it has been a rather wild gamble to focus on export to Russia.

When ristrictions were imposed, then Russian retail prices skyrocketed, which wasn't very popular among the public. But this time Putin can blame it on "the west", and probably get away with it.

To some extent Putin is doing EU/US a favor with these sanctions. It is not like the world suddenly wants to eat less food. Since Putin can't boost internal production overnight, then Russia will find imports from non-EU/US countries by overbidding their market prices. EU and US will then fill the gap where these countries traditionally exported their products. And at the end of the day they will find that these "new" markets will be more stable, and therefore in the long run more profitable than Russia.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12484
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:24 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 74):
If Putin gets away with his attacks on Ukraine, they think that they will be next...

They quite frankly are being paranoid and stupid. I've been in the Baltics several times this year, most people you speak to don't care, it appears it's politicians grandstanding and media outlets picking up the stories rather than actual people panicking.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 76):
To some extent Putin is doing EU/US a favor with these sanctions. It is not like the world suddenly wants to eat less food.

Tell that to Norway, after the govt stupidly joined the sanctions Russia blocked export of fish, Norwegian fish exports to Russia amount to some 11.4 billion NOK, nearly 2 billion USD, where is Norway going to find a market for all that fish, they're not is the short answer.
 
tu204
Posts: 2026
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:40 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 75):
The Ukrainian forces should slaughter them while they have the chance (which is probably what the rebels would do) or at least capture as many as they can and treat them as POWs.

They are doing a good job of that and that will guarantee a breakup of Ukraine in the next decade or at least some great internal tensions between Eastern Ukranians and the rest of Ukraine.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 75):
The stupidity of some peoples amazes me...

Tell me about it 
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 75):
So the shooting down of MH17 was carefully planned? Putin sat down and thought it out? Because, you do know that that and the way putin handled the aftermath is what lead to the sanctions?

A fitting reply from an Australian that perfectly fits the knee-jerk reactions of your politicians. No real evidence? Just claims? No problem, let's act on them!
And then...

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 75):
Russia can do as it pleases without any consequences...

Replace "Russia" with Australia, US, E.U., Norway...

Funny that Australia seems even suprised that there were consequences for their short-sighted ill-planned actions. You guys are now talking about sanctions in reply to Russian sanctions 
Keep it up guys.
As we agree, trade relations between the two countries aren't significant or important, so our respective countries can keep on sanctioning each other for each others sanctions till the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, it doens't really hurt anyone but a few individuals in both countries.
But take a look at the E.U. or even my former home of Canada. They don't seem to be laughing that much anymore and hopefully will take a more constructive approach.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 77):
Tell that to Norway, after the govt stupidly joined the sanctions Russia blocked export of fish, Norwegian fish exports to Russia amount to some 11.4 billion NOK, nearly 2 billion USD, where is Norway going to find a market for all that fish, they're not is the short answer.

That's a bummer. Get involved for no reason under questionable circumstances into a situation that is not yet clear and decide to take action. And then end up realising that there are consequences for your actions that end up hurting a bunch of your own...
My knowledge of Norway is very limited, but Norwegian media could always spin this in the government's favour by blaming Russia for everything and coming out clean in the end like the Ukranians are doing.
But something tells me the average Norwegian is a little more objective than Ukranians and won't buy into Russia being at fault for them being left without a job.
What internal reactions do you see occuring in Norway?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12484
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:24 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 78):
What internal reactions do you see occuring in Norway?

Most of the people I know and work with were surprised and now worried, Russia is a major trading partner with Norway. I believe it comes after Sweden, UK, Denmark, Russia, we ahead of the USA. There was a free trade agreement between Russia and Norway on the table, issues like the Barets Sea had been resolved. It's a mess.
 
tu204
Posts: 2026
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:01 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 79):
Most of the people I know and work with were surprised and now worried

I didn't put the question correctly, I apologize.

I am interested in who the people effected are blaming and what they are asking for. And also how is the media portraying it.

For example do the people that will lose their jobs realise that it is not exactly Russia that made them lose their jobs but their own government's actions? And how is the media also playing the situation?
Does it look like internal pressure will alter the situation?

As you know sanctions are usually used to try to effect someone to change their policy. Punish individuals or companies to pressure the government into making changes. Usually that does not work like in Cuba and Russia. In my view, Russian sanctions against the EU will not effect the EU's policy just like the EU's did not work against Russia. What is your opinion?

P.S. These sanctions will have an effect on me. I'm a big fan of Salmon - love salted salmon with lemon, I buy a 250g fillet at least once a week. Although after this whole snowball started rolling I have only bought Russian salmon, usually at the same price but I didn't mind paying a few % more out of principle (no offence to you intended), I think something like 50% of salmon in Russia comes from Norway, so prices will inevitably rise here. Producers in the Far East immediately claimed they have the capacity to boost production to partially cover Norway. However I live in Central Russia and seafood coming from the Far East has to be frozen...it just won't be the same... 
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12484
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:59 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 80):
I am interested in who the people effected are blaming and what they are asking for. And also how is the media portraying it.

Most of the folks I work with are pretty well educated, most blame the govt for partaking in something which didn't affect us, now it will.
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:33 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 78):
A fitting reply from an Australian that perfectly fits the knee-jerk reactions of your politicians.

A backwards and fitting reply from a Russian that perfectly fits the backwards and knee-jerk reactions of your dictator who has Napoleon complex / short man syndrome  
Quoting tu204 (Reply 78):
Funny that Australia seems even suprised that there were consequences for their short-sighted ill-planned actions.

Care to elaborate on Australia's short-sighted ill-planned actions that you are talking about?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 78):
Keep it up guys.

Australia will as Australia has nothing to lose as Russia can't do anything to Australia that will affect it.

A banning of uranium sales to Russia is on the cards according to our foreign minister   No problem as you do have access to your own uranium...

[Edited 2014-08-11 18:40:34]
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
tu204
Posts: 2026
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:52 am

Since ealier you posted this:

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 75):
I would expect such a comment given the flag on your profile, but I can't blame you - I too would be fearful to criticize the government of the country I lived in with the reputation that the dictator putin has (eg: Pussy Riot). I don't blame you - I would not want kgb agents coming around to my place and paying me a visit...

It perfectly explains why I would post what I posted above and explains my backwards replies. As you may know, KGB agents and sometimes Putin himselves pays Russians friendly visits in the middle of the night and asks to see our browser history and makes sure we only post politically correct replies on the internet  
So that explains my side.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 82):
A backwards and fitting reply from a Russian that perfectly fits the backwards and knee-jerk reactions of your dictator who has Napoleon complex / short man syndrome

What about yours? It seems that judging by your flag on your profile you must make comments after paying a daily visit to the local tavern in the outback and downing several gallons of "beeea"   ?

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 82):
Care to elaborate on Australia's short-sighted ill-planned actions that you are talking about?

I was reffering more to your politicians comments throughout this whole scenario like making outrageous accusations blaming Russia directly for the crash of MH17 not even two hours after the crash. Do you even wonder why our embassador would not meet your foreign minister untill your guys calmed down and became more or less coherent?
Also please do explain to me what exactly Australia gained from imposing some useless sanctions on Russia? Your politicians hopefully were smart enough to realise there would be consequences, right? It doesn't take a genius to look at Russia's foreign policy and replies to anti-Russian actions in the last 10 years. It has been pretty clear: tit for tat.
While Australian produce exports to Russia were only worth $400 million, was that like an extra $400 million that you guys didn't know what to do with so you decided to just throw it out the window?   And for what? Obviously internal consumption and sabre rattling?

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 82):
Australia will as Australia has nothing to lose as Russia can't do anything to Australia that will affect it.

A banning of uranium sales to Russia is on the cards according to our foreign minister   No problem as you do have access to your own uranium...

The whole Australia affair is turning into a comedy. There's nothing left that either side can ban to do absolutely any damage to the other.
While we are at it lets ban Qantas from flying to Russian airports and Australia can ban Aeroflot from flying into Australia. Then for added kicks lets ban UTAir from flying to Australia and we will ban Virgin Australia from flying to Russia. 

If you excuse me, I have to buy some vodka for my bear, he is getting thirsty  
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tailskid
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:27 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:57 am

This whole thing is getting serious.

The Russians are now about to run their 300 truck convoy across the border.
From a purely military standpoint the Ukrainian military would be remiss in their duty if they let it get through to Donetsk. But there are armed factions who are sure to hit the convoy anyway.
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:27 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 84):

I wonder if the rebels then will stage an attac giving Putin all the reasons he needs to send in the troops.. Its almost too simple to be possible, not even the Kremlin is this lame?
 
User avatar
Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 1985
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Aug 12, 2014 10:33 am

According to the Guardian, Ukraine will not allow the Russian convoy to pass into Ukraine:

Quote:
Russian aid convoy 'will not be admitted into Ukraine'
Ukrainian spokesman says convoy not certified by Red Cross, raising fears that
Russia could use initiative to send in troops

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...onvoy-ukraine-red-cross?CMP=twt_gu
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
tu204
Posts: 2026
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:43 pm

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 86):
According to the Guardian, Ukraine will not allow the Russian convoy to pass into Ukraine:

Ukraine has given up the absurd demands and has agreed to Russian conditions on the humanitarian aid.
They have now agreed to the conditions of allowing OSCE, Red Cross and Ukranian officials onboard the convoy at the Ukranian border.

Ukranie has dropped the ridiculous demand to reload 280 trucks onto Ukranian trucks after crossing the border.
Maybe they have some common sense left in them afterall.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
YoungMans
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 10:31 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:54 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 87):
Ukraine has given up the absurd demands and has agreed to Russian conditions on the humanitarian aid.
They have now agreed to the conditions of allowing OSCE, Red Cross and Ukranian officials onboard the convoy at the Ukranian border.

Ukranie has dropped the ridiculous demand to reload 280 trucks onto Ukranian trucks after crossing the border.
Maybe they have some common sense left in them afterall.

That is real progress and a good sign, I should think.
Let's see what our news report about that.
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:52 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 83):
As you may know, KGB agents and sometimes Putin himselves pays Russians friendly visits in the middle of the night and asks to see our browser history and makes sure we only post politically correct replies on the internet

I knew it  
Quoting tu204 (Reply 83):
It seems that judging by your flag on your profile you must make comments after paying a daily visit to the local tavern in the outback and downing several gallons of "beeea" ?

Alcohol is alcohol - not too much difference (except for maybe the cost and health affects) between the 'beeea' some Aussies consume and the vodka you obviously consume before you post in here... BTW I drink Bourbon whiskey - I can't stand 'beeea'  
Quoting tu204 (Reply 83):
Also please do explain to me what exactly Australia gained from imposing some useless sanctions on Russia?

As I said, care to list the specific sanctions 'Australia' imposed on Russia as a result of MH17...???

Quoting tu204 (Reply 83):
If you excuse me, I have to buy some vodka for my bear, he is getting thirsty

You mean you don't have a supply for your bear at home? I thought you guys had stockpiles of the stuff... I have stockpiles of 'beeea' for my kangaroo as he does not like bourbon  
Quoting YoungMans (Reply 88):
Quoting tu204 (Reply 87):
Ukraine has given up the absurd demands and has agreed to Russian conditions on the humanitarian aid.
They have now agreed to the conditions of allowing OSCE, Red Cross and Ukranian officials onboard the convoy at the Ukranian border.

Ukranie has dropped the ridiculous demand to reload 280 trucks onto Ukranian trucks after crossing the border.
Maybe they have some common sense left in them afterall.

That is real progress and a good sign, I should think.
Let's see what our news report about that.

What a shame. I don't see why the Ukraine should have agreed to Russia's absurd demands to allow a Russian convoy into the Ukraine to re-supply the rebels that are engaging conflict with the Ukraine army... Humanitarian aid my a**... If the conflict in that area escalates again it will serve the idiots who allowed the Russian convoy through right. It should have been blocked as I see that as a trigger to provoke Russia into a larger conflict in which other forces would have eventually got drawn in to... This is just delaying the inevitable...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
tu204
Posts: 2026
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:38 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 89):
As I said, care to list the specific sanctions 'Australia' imposed on Russia as a result of MH17...???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine
Australia is really lagging behind in the sanctions! Guys, get your act together  !
Its hard to tell what any of those sanctions are for: MH17, a bunch of Ukranians shooting each other, the fact that someone slipped and fell getting out of the shower, the fact that some guys couldn't "get it up" in bed...It's still pretty obvious that for all the above problems, Putin is the one at fault 
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 89):
You mean you don't have a supply for your bear at home? I thought you guys had stockpiles of the stuff... I have stockpiles of 'beeea' for my kangaroo as he does not like bourbon  

As you mentioned above, I down a bottle before each post I make here and replying to your posts has really put a dent in my supplies   My bear wasn't happy.
We do seem to be pretty non-standard representatives of our respective countries. I don't like Vodka and much rather drink some "beeea", which judging from every Australian I have met is more popular than water down-under  
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8645
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:22 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 87):
Ukraine has given up the absurd demands and has agreed to Russian conditions on the humanitarian aid.
They have now agreed to the conditions of allowing OSCE, Red Cross and Ukranian officials onboard the convoy at the Ukranian border.

Well hopefully Russia plays fair and allows proper verification that this is actually aid. Even you have to admit that your government would pull something shady and truck in a bunch of weapons while saying it's humanitarian

I think Ukraine is also trying very hard to appear tough without having to open fire on Russian troops... Ukraine knows they'd get a beat down if that happened, Russia does too and is probably trying to take advantage of the situation
 
tu204
Posts: 2026
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:56 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 91):
Well hopefully Russia plays fair and allows proper verification that this is actually aid. Even you have to admit that your government would pull something shady and truck in a bunch of weapons while saying it's humanitarian

I am pretty sure that it is purely humanitarian aid. At this point in time it makes more sense to send humanitarian aid to civilians in cities besieged by the Ukranian Army. The civilians remaining there are not very pleased with Ukraine at the moment and handing them aid in their time of need sort of shows "who the good guys are". In this sense such a large and publisized aid convoy is a PR move. And it is also what Ukraine doesn't want so they tried pretty hard to block it from happeneing even though the situation in Lughansk and Dontesk are pretty dire.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 91):
I think Ukraine is also trying very hard to appear tough without having to open fire on Russian troops... Ukraine knows they'd get a beat down if that happened, Russia does too and is probably trying to take advantage of the situation

Russian troops are on the other side of the border, don't see much of a reason why Ukrainians would purposely try to engage us. Russian troops have shown great restraint as well in not firing back when shells from the other side ended up landing here. I am not saying Ukranians are shooting into Russian territory on purpose, afterall these are non-precision warheads and over 100km of the border is controlled by rebels, so it makes sense that a few shells go off a bit and land in Russia. (You are shooting at a rebel position, which is only 1km from the border...you get it).

Russian forces have also been pretty polite and respectfull with dealing with Ukranian soldiers that escaped into Russia when they were forced to withdraw but were cornered by rebels with ammo and supplies depleted. Requested entry into Russia, entered Russia, our Army took care of their wounded and sent them back to Ukraine by aircraft.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 14, 2014 2:31 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 90):
Its hard to tell what any of those sanctions are for: MH17

Those were in place before MH17   So, Russia is not playing tit for tat with Australia as one of your earlier posts implied, and, moreover, as I implied, you cannot list any Australian sanctions against Russia after or as a result of MH17. Thus, Russia's argument that Australia sanctioned them after MH17 first is as bogus as most other things putin says  
Quoting tu204 (Reply 90):
the fact that some guys couldn't "get it up" in bed

We don't need to hear about the personal problems of Putin and other Russian politicians...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 90):
We do seem to be pretty non-standard representatives of our respective countries. I don't like Vodka and much rather drink some "beeea", which judging from every Australian I have met is more popular than water down-under

My Russian mates tell me that vodka is the water in Russia - they certainly drink it like it is  
Quoting tu204 (Reply 92):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 91):
Well hopefully Russia plays fair and allows proper verification that this is actually aid. Even you have to admit that your government would pull something shady and truck in a bunch of weapons while saying it's humanitarian

I am pretty sure that it is purely humanitarian aid.

I have my doubts. Only time will tell...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9602
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:19 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 92):
I am pretty sure that it is purely humanitarian aid.
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 93):
I have my doubts. Only time will tell...

The big question is if the rebels will attack the convoy thinking it will get them more help than the supplies themselves. Since it is a Russian Convoy, the rebels understand that Russia will be tempted to attack to defend it and could very likely "blame the Ukrainians because why would the rebels attack help destined for them?" The problem is you just don't know what the rebels will do since no one controls them. It is a difficult situation. I can see why it could be a better idea to offload everything and put it on independent Red Cross trucks that are neither Ukrainian nor Russian.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
tu204
Posts: 2026
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:13 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 94):
I can see why it could be a better idea to offload everything and put it on independent Red Cross trucks that are neither Ukrainian nor Russian.

While I understand your concern, I think the solution they came to is the best trade-off. Placing OSCE, Red Cross and Ukranian officials onboard the convoy at the border is the best they could do and would also be able to independently monitor the situation as the convoy progresses to its destination.

The problem with your proposal is that
1) It is not that easy for the Red Cross to find and lease 280 trucks in a short timespan
and
2) Offloading 280 truckloads of cargo and reloading them onto 280 other trucks would take quite a bit of work and time.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6130
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:13 am

Meanwhile, Kremlin's attack dog Zhirinovsky is running his mouth once again...

Last Monday, Zhirinovsky threatened Poland and the Baltic States with bombing, if Europe and NATO persist with their current policies toward the Russian Federation and do not give up on Ukraine.

Speaking on Rossiya 24 channel, Zhirinovsky claimed that "all war and peace issues in general and, today, those related to Ukraine, will be decided by one man alone, the leader of the Russian state". He added that Russian President Vladimir Putin might already have plans for world war three.

Zhirinovsky's made some even more ominous statements regarding Russia's neighbours: "The Baltic States, Poland - they are doomed. They will be swept away. Nothing will remain there. They should sober up, the leaders of these dwarf nations, [and see] how they are exposing themselves


http://en.delfi.lt/central-eastern-e...ecoded.d?id=65547652#ixzz3ALreWABE
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12484
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:17 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 96):
Last Monday, Zhirinovsky threatened Poland and the Baltic States with bombing, if Europe and NATO persist with their current policies toward the Russian Federation and do not give up on Ukraine.

Speaking on Rossiya 24 channel, Zhirinovsky claimed that "all war and peace issues in general and, today, those related to Ukraine, will be decided by one man alone, the leader of the Russian state". He added that Russian President Vladimir Putin might already have plans for world war three.

Zhirinovsky's made some even more ominous statements regarding Russia's neighbours: "The Baltic States, Poland - they are doomed. They will be swept away. Nothing will remain there. They should sober up, the leaders of these dwarf nations, [and see] how they are exposing themselves

Not a lot different from teh crap spewed forth by Fox's nuts.

This makes for interesting reading. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinio...sia-s-rearmament-plans/505006.html

Quote:
The outcome of Western sanctions, imposed in response to a short-term situation of conflict, could turn out to be contrary to original intentions. Russia may well emerge as a country with a military production capability almost immune to any future attempts by outside powers to cripple it.
 
victrola
Posts: 716
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:31 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 14, 2014 5:52 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 46):
Quoting Scipio (Reply 46):Economic integration with the EU, and adopting EU standards and regulations, is a long term plan and it is a good one.
Again, I don't see where the benefit is for Ukranians.

Right, the Ukranians would receive absolutely no benefits whatsoever by joining one of the largest and most prosperous economic areas in the world where a free market in the framework of the rule of law prevails.  
 
User avatar
Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 1985
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

RE: Political Ramifications Of MH17 Part 2

Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:50 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 92):
I am pretty sure that it is purely humanitarian aid

Very very doubtful since they decided to bypass a red-cross check point and instead head south,
presumably because they have more then just humanitarian aid in the cargo.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...oy-resumes-journey-to-Ukraine.html

The Guardian reports that the convoy have stopped 25 miles from a rebel controlled border-crossing.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...nvoy-stops-close-to-ukraine-border

So shy are the Russian afraid of revealing what kind of cargo they have?
Probably because the cargo contains weapons for the rebels and possible also Russian soldiers
dressed as rebels.

[Edited 2014-08-14 12:29:40]
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BartSimpson, SanDiegoLover, tommy1808 and 79 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos