Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
jetblueguy22
Topic Author
Posts: 3507
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:15 am

Hi All,

As the previous thread has gotten quite long Part 2 has been created to continue the discussion. The previous thread can be found here Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza (by Mortyman Jul 17 2014 in Non Aviation) .

Regards,
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 12733
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:25 am

Aaron

Have you talked to your fellow Jews that have spent months running to shelters?
That have run the electricity lines to Gaza?

That have spent time and energy working with Fataw and other organizations just to watch the Palestinians run to Hamas and Iran and Hezbollah and embrace terror and all that is hell?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:30 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
Palestinians run to Hamas

You fail to understand "why" they run to Hamas.

Because Israel has given Gazan's nothing to hope for. Simple.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
Iran

They are doing quite nicely on the international world stage, dialogue everywhere, except Israel of course.

[Edited 2014-07-30 21:35:37]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 13393
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:41 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
That have run the electricity lines to Gaza?

That is only the tip of the iceberg of the resources that could be deployed to politically decapitate Hamas. None of this was necessary.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
Have you talked to your fellow Jews that have spent months running to shelters?

Yes, and they are plenty divided on this topic. Many of them are concerned, as I am, that Jewish values are being scuttled in the name of Bibi's quest for a legacy.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
That have spent time and energy working with Fataw and other organizations just to watch the Palestinians run to Hamas and Iran and Hezbollah and embrace terror and all that is hell?

Let's do a quick critical thinking exercise here: you live in Inner City America. It's the 1970s. Your school is run down, the teachers don't give a fig about you, parents are never around, you've been hardened by beatings and bearing witness to violence all the time you've grown up, and you never spend time thinking about your values or what you want out of life because your daily life is consumed by the need to grab a few bucks to get by or get your next fix of the stuff that really makes it possible to avoid thinking or feeling anything. Someone comes along and says you won't have to worry about food or drugs or a roof over your head if you'll just be part of their gang. Yeah, so you might have to take out a few people they don't like now and then, but you're past caring anyway. Are you gonna turn that down?

Human nature. It's worth understanding.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 12733
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:57 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):

Human nature is worth understanding ?

Think a little further down your very narrow tunnel.
What is waiting for you after that decision?

A good career ?
A stable family?
Opportunity?
A good future?

I don't think so .

When you make the choice to side with terrorists, you make the choice to share in the punishment that is laid upon them.

You see, I sympathize with their plight , but I pity their decision not to jump ship
They are like an Alcoholic that always turns to the bottle instead of the faucet .

[Edited 2014-07-30 22:30:00]
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 12733
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:59 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 2):

Gaza doesn't do anything to make their dreams come true . They sacrifice their stairs to the stars , and turn then into tunnels for rockets.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
PhilBy
Posts: 840
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:17 am

Quoting asturias (Reply 287):
To you, me and to Israelis and to the civilians in Gaza these buildings are homes, mosques, hospitals, schools etc. but to Hamas and other terrorists, they are just damn convenient buildings to shoot missiles from or dig tunnels from.

Why convenient? Because in general, people will find it an atrocity to target such buildings. Win/win situation for them! If we allow it.

But if we deny them any moral "victory" by making schools, hospitals, mosques and other public places a *target*, then they lose. Hamas thrives on the moral outrage of their cold and calculated massacre of their own people by making them a target.

IMO if we deny them any moral victory by NOT making schools, hospitals, mosques and other public places a *target*, then they lose.

I have no objection to Israel eliminating those who attack them but from the original point "This is a defensive military action, Hamas has ensured that there will be civilian casualties on their side, Israel tries to avoid them where possible." It is not impossible to avoid many of these civilian casualties.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:35 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 4):
You see, I sympathize with their plight ,

Really, or just lip service....

Because......

Quoting casinterest (Reply 4):
They are like an Alcoholic that always turns to the bottle instead if the faucet .

Presumably, because there is no water to drink, maybe ?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 5):
Gaza doesn't do anything to make their dreams come true .

Instead of one liners, get to the crux of the matter.

What dreams do they have casinterest, realistically ?

What is there to look forward too. Israel has cut them off effectively, over many decades, like cancer slowly spreading through your system, until there is no hope, very hard to see light at the end of the tunnel, excuse the pun !

Quoting casinterest (Reply 5):
They sacrifice their stairs to the stars

C'om, you cant be serious with that statement.

Israel has strangled them, Israel stops people (Gazans) from going to work, they stop Gazans students from going to universities, they stop the sick and ill, from gaining hospital treatment when needed....

And all this happening before the current situation....

Many many years before infact.

Why ?

To be cruel, vindictive towards the Gazan's for having voted in an organization the Israel cant stand to deal with.

Is this how you treat fellow human beings.

All Israelis, should be utterly ashamed of these actions that are being carried out by the IDF under direct orders from BIbi, he, one day I hope, will be held accountable for his actions infront of the entire world
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
bchandl
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:49 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:40 am

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 6):
It is not impossible to avoid many of these civilian casualties.

How do you figure? IDF has dropped information letters telling people to leave, a strike is coming. The Caza strip is very urbanized, Hamas isn't sitting out in a field launching off rockets having a good ole' time.

They are conducting their combat actions in urban areas. To eliminate those military assets and Hamas soldiers, they are forced to hit buildings and other populated areas.

Their hand is forced here.

bchandl
 
wstakl
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:51 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:16 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 8):
IDF has dropped information letters telling people to leave, a strike is coming.

And go where exactly? Sounds like it was a token gesture in order to justify their form of genocide.
 
PhilBy
Posts: 840
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:22 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 8):
To eliminate those military assets and Hamas soldiers, they are forced to hit buildings and other populated areas.

Their hand is forced here.

Do you really believe that the only way to kill a terrorist is with artillery or airstrike? They're just the quickest, cheapest and least discriminating methods available.
 
bchandl
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:49 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:24 am

Quoting WSTAKL (Reply 9):

Responding to violent war provocations and attempted (and successful) murders of your own citizens from the ruling body of another territory is now genocide? Please.

What is happening to the people as a result of Hamas' actions is terribly sad, but that comment is just laughable.

What Hitler did, what Stalin did, what Sadam did, what the Jung-Un freakshow is doing.... those are genocides.

Israel is dropping those letters to try and minimize civilian deaths. Those civilians have a choice, leave their homes which may get destroyed or die in their homes if they get destroyed.

bchandl
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 13393
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:27 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 4):
Human nature is worth understanding ?

Yes, particularly if one wishes to solve human problems.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 4):
A good career ?
A stable family?
Opportunity?
A good future?

As I clearly stated, once any kind of life vision or clarity have been lost, and feelings are numbed, those things cease to be important and people are easily manipulated.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 4):
When you make the choice to side with terrorists, you make the choice to share in the punishment that is laid upon them.

Black and white absolutism like that is a prime instigator in the failure to resolve these issues substantially. It is mind-boggling to suggest that thinking as Hamas does is the way to defeat Hamas (never mind that doing so willfully abandons all kinds of important values)

Israel had a very good shot at embracing a path toward multifaceted solutions, but her own selfish extremists murdered Rabin.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:27 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 8):
How do you figure?

By NOT dropping bombs where there are civilians. Simple

Quoting bchandl (Reply 8):
IDF has dropped information letters telling people to leave, a strike is coming.

Where exactly do they run to ?

Quoting bchandl (Reply 8):
The Caza strip is very urbanized,

You said it "urbanized" and small. In fact its one if not the most densely populated in the world, so where do they run to... the sea perhaps ?

Quoting bchandl (Reply 8):
Hamas isn't sitting out in a field launching off rockets having a good ole' time.

All the more reason why Israel, with all its might and experties, cannot mount a land offensive and crack thwi

Quoting WSTAKL (Reply 9):
And go where exactly?

Very good question, I asked the same myself,But he's been strangely quiet

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 10):
discriminating methods available.

Oh.. Israels very good at discriminating against others, even their fellow country men!

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.604043
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
bchandl
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:49 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:38 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 13):
Very good question, I asked the same myself,But he's been strangely quiet

Off the top of my head...

UN shelters

Family member residences

Friends' residences

F____ing anywhere

if I got a letter saying a fighter was possibly going to come blow up my apartment on X date you better believe I would pull a Chris Farley and live in a van down by the river if it meant not getting killed if and when my apartment got destroyed.

If someone like the fire department told me I had to evacuate due to a wildfire risk, I could think like ten places I could go. Even if my home was destroyed by the fire, I would have places to stay. Sure beats getting burned to death in my apartment.

I'm sure you could do the same. Everyone can. If you don't have another place, there are public relief disaster housing options (Red Cross in a fire situation in America, UN shelters in Gaza)

How would that scenario be any different for someone in Gaza?

The excuse of "where can they go" is just pathetically weak.

bchandl
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:48 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 14):
UN shelters

That's a great choice.... Israel bombs them and schools !!  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
PhilBy
Posts: 840
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:01 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 14):
if I got a letter saying a fighter was possibly going to come blow up my apartment

You could practically guarantee that the only people killed would be civilians who refuse to abandon their homes. History has shown that there are always plenty who do refuse.
 
bchandl
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:49 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:03 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 15):

It happened once, so the plurality confuses me, but as you have displayed in this thread you are not a fan of facts or reality, so whatever.

Second, do you really think Israel thinks bombing UN shelters is a good thing? You think it was intentional? Apparently in addition to facts and reality you're also deathly allergic to rational thinking, too.

Yes, and they bombed them because the schools double as Hamas launching pads and armories.

bchandl
 
Caryjack
Posts: 416
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 9:45 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:08 am

This from the previous thread:

User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7473 posts, RR: 3
Reply 298, posted Wed Jul 30 2014 12:18:50 your local time (11 hours 27 minutes 18 secs ago) and read 237 times:

One question about this "Right of Return", if all those entitled to return do so, does Israel have the space for them.

The right of return means that all Palestinians who have a claim to any land that is currently occupied by Israel have the right to return to that land. The space is certainty available but the returnees would quickly outnumber the current occupants. In the subsequent election, who do you suppose the Palestinians would vote for...Hamas? The right of return would be the end of Israel.
Thanks,   
Cary
 
bennett123
Posts: 10605
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:28 am

Sorry, I did not word that correctly.

I was thinking of the "Law of Return", see reply 283 of the previous thread.
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2542
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:35 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 11):

Israel is dropping those letters to try and minimize civilian deaths. Those civilians have a choice, leave their homes which may get destroyed or die in their homes if they get destroyed.

You must be telling a horrible joke since the IDF purposely bombed a UNRWA refugee camp school after being told 17 times the coordinates. It matters not though, it'll be explained away anyway from those with your viewpoint. Palestinians are dogs...subhuman.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys. Citizenship/Residence::: Washington DC, US; Vaud, CH; Providenciales, TCI (hence my avi)
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:52 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 17):
It happened once,

So what if it happened once, it happened, That's the point.

So why would you run to a school or UN shelter ?

Quoting bchandl (Reply 17):
but as you have displayed in this thread you are not a fan of facts or reality, so whatever.

Get of the high horse. Don't tell me about "facts or reality"......

I was the one who pointed out to you, that Israel bombs UN shelters !   

Quoting bchandl (Reply 17):
You think it was intentional?

If your talking about Israel, yes I do think it was intentional !

Especially judging by the heavy handed IDF techniques used so far, nothing would surprise me
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
edka
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:07 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 3):
That is only the tip of the iceberg of the resources that could be deployed to politically decapitate Hamas. None of this was necessary.

I don't disagree with many points you are making. I have always been of the opinion that Israel should take the lead in trying proactively sort out Palestinian problem. There were definitely attempts in the early 90s to 2000 (despite huge wave of Palestinian terror attacks, mainly from....Hamas!).

There is only one problem in your idealistic scenario... You cannot help people that do not want to help themselves. Yes, i know all about corrupt Fatah and the reasons why Hamas came to power, etc etc... But it seems that ultimately, Palestinian people DO NOT want two state solution and CANNOT provide any security guarantees to Israel, if they had one. What's happening in Gaza, with Hamas spending all the money they get from Qatar or Iran or whoever on building terror infrastructure, rockets, tunnels. All this is for one goal only - hurt Israel in any way you can.. .And already Iran making statements that they will arm West Bank, so its easier to hit Tel Aviv, Haifa...

I always said, if Hamas were to disarm and become just a political party, Israel should talk to Hamas, but there is no chance of it happening.

Ultimately, my outlook is not great. Israel has no win situation.

As far as Palestinians, i am not sure what is it they want, but i am happy to go on record here to say that unlike Israelis that build their country from nothing, whatever peace of land that will be eventually called State of Palestine - nothing good will come out of it if people like Hamas are running it...

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
Israel had a very good shot at embracing a path toward multifaceted solutions, but her own selfish extremists murdered Rabin.

True, but you also forgetting Barak, who, while not as charming as Rabin, had public support at the time to make deal with Palestinians, and we all know how that worked out..

Quoting bchandl (Reply 17):
It happened once, so the plurality confuses me, but as you have displayed in this thread you are not a fan of facts or reality, so whatever.

It is still not clear who bombed the school. Israelis are saying that it could have been Hamas misfired rocket.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.607138

And before anyone claims propaganda - Israel in the past admitted their mistakes, if they happened.

There are also reports (unconfirmed) by some Italian journalist who tweeted that it "wasn't Israelis".
http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/07...-hamas-crimes-starting-to-unravel/
 
bchandl
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:49 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:16 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
I was the one who pointed out to you, that Israel bombs UN shelters !   

There you go using plurality to describe a one time event. I'm not on a high horse, I'm just asking you start using facts and realities in your posts. if you follow that suggestion, I think you will find you have very little left to post.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 22):
It is still not clear who bombed the school. Israelis are saying that it could have been Hamas misfired rocket.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.607138

And before anyone claims propaganda - Israel in the past admitted their mistakes, if they happened.

There are also reports (unconfirmed) by some Italian journalist who tweeted that it "wasn't Israelis".
http://legalinsurrection.com/2014/07...-hamas-crimes-starting-to-unravel/

Thank you EDKA, I knew it was not clear last I heard but I didn't mention it if there had been an admission that I had missed. Just to error on the side of caution. I actually prefer my posts to be factual and accurate, maybe you could take notes Commodore.

Honestly, if Palestinian journalists were tweeting it was Hamas I wholeheartedly believe it was. This is no different then when the Pro-Russian Ukrainians tweeted about downing MH17.

But, Commodore and his likeminded type in the MSM have no interest in facts, only their fairytale rhetoric and agendas. Whatever facts and realities need to be stopped and quitted about the events in Gaza to further that agenda is just a casualty of their propaganda war.

bchandl
 
Caryjack
Posts: 416
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 9:45 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:25 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 19):
I was thinking of the "Law of Return", see reply 283 of the previous thread.

  

This from the previous thread.
NAV30 From Australia, joined Mar 2014, 277 posts, RR: 0
Reply 283, posted Wed Jul 30 2014 07:31:43 your local time (17 hours 16 minutes 41 secs ago) and read 427 times:
Quoting casinterest (Reply 281):

"Go show me where it doesn't practice it....
Do Palestinians whose families were driven out in the various wars have any similar 'right of return'?"

No. This from: www.washingtontimes.com

Mr. Arafat rejected the deal, in part due to its failure to grant millions of Palestinian refugees and their descendants the right to move to Israel.
 
bennett123
Posts: 10605
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:44 am

Reply 283 refers to the Law of Return 5710=1950 approved by the Knesset.

Which says that every Jew has the right to come to this country (Israel)

Apparently it was extended in 1970 to include non Jews with a Jewish grandparent or their spouses.

I repeat, if these people said, "I want to go to Israel", is there room for them within the present state of Israel?.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 13393
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:04 am

Quoting EDKA (Reply 22):
But it seems that ultimately, Palestinian people DO NOT want two state solution and CANNOT provide any security guarantees to Israel, if they had one.

I see your points as well, but this kind of generalism does not lead toward solutions either. Palestinians who are not terrorists who do not favor a two-state solution feel that way because they have grown up only knowing the checkpoints and economic instability that have been imposed on them, by Israel, due to the actions of their own citizens. Nobody said this is simple - which is why I'm advocating multifaceted solutions.

But the Palestinians need to see that Israel can be *better for them* than groups like Hamas, and that is the only way to turn the tide. Whether that's fair or not is irrelevant, Israel is the only entity with the direct influence and ability to make that so - but that will not happen so long as the political will is not there. And unfortunately with the rotating door mess that is factional Israeli elections, it doesn't get any easier.

There will never be security *guarantees*, just as Israel will likely never be able to quiet the most rabid of the Zionist settlers. But that's all the more reason that some REASONABLE situation, prompted by an improvement in Palestinian living conditions conducive to making Hamas irrelevant, is the only practical option remaining.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 22):
I always said, if Hamas were to disarm and become just a political party, Israel should talk to Hamas, but there is no chance of it happening.

There is no talking with the likes of Hamas, just as there's no talking with the likes of Avigdor Lieberman. This makes it imperative to politically decapitate them as thoroughly as possible.

[Edited 2014-07-31 02:06:19]
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:10 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 23):

There you go using plurality to describe a one time event.

Do you know why bchandl...

For your Information

Its the second time this week the, UN issued a warning to Israel about bombing UN shelters.

Get with the picture will you.

Quoting bchandl (Reply 23):
I actually prefer my posts to be factual and accurate,
Then tell the truth... for a change !

Quoting bchandl (Reply 23):
I'm just asking you start using facts and realities in your posts.

THEN start telling it like it is for a change, and not putting the Israeli slant on things   

Quoting EDKA (Reply 22):
Israelis are saying that it could have been Hamas misfired rocket.

See, there you go again with the Prejudice thing !

We are talking about Israel firing on a UN shelter/s. Not schools !

Quoting bchandl (Reply 23):
But, Commodore and his likeminded type in the MSM have no interest in facts, only their fairytale rhetoric and agendas. Whatever facts and realities need to be stopped and quitted about the events in Gaza to further that agenda is just a casualty of their propaganda war.

WoW

And you say that about me, And with a straight face, when its I who have picked you up, on telling "whoppsies "
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6855
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:54 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 311):
Than move to Palestine and solve it yourself

I'll pass on that, thanks. I wouldn't be pushed on living next to a country which has no qualms about bombing children to smithereens.
 
edka
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:29 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 25):
I repeat, if these people said, "I want to go to Israel", is there room for them within the present state of Israel?.

Without developing new technologies and settling up huge areas of desert in Israel's south, it would be difficult, but not impossible.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 28):
I'll pass on that, thanks. I wouldn't be pushed on living next to a country which has no qualms about bombing children to smithereens.


Really?
Assuming that you live in Ireland, you already doing that. During initial stages of 2003 invasion of Iraq, in which Britain participated, between 4,000 and 7,000 (depending on who you listen to) civilians got killed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11107739
 
PhilBy
Posts: 840
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:46 am

Quoting EDKA (Reply 30):
Assuming that you live in Ireland, you already doing that.

But Britain and Ireland don't share a land border. There's the Irish sea in between.
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6855
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:55 am

Quoting EDKA (Reply 30):
Assuming that you live in Ireland, you already doing that.

Bad and all as the Iraq war was, I don't recall the British Army every bombing schools, UN shelters or children on a beach.
 
bchandl
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:49 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:05 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 33):

True. Most of the schools and hospitals were taken care of already by the suicide Islamic martyrs because of their anti-women, anti-western influence Islamic extremist views. The same breed of people that control Gaza, Hamas.

bchandl
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19544
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:02 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 8):
How do you figure? IDF has dropped information letters telling people to leave, a strike is coming.

Giving how much notice, exactly?

Quoting WSTAKL (Reply 9):
And go where exactly? Sounds like it was a token gesture in order to justify their form of genocide.

If it wasn't so tragic, the irony would be hilarious.

Quoting bchandl (Reply 14):
F____ing anywhere

Except there isn't anywhere.

So, it seems, even some Israelis can see the situation for what it is.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.608118

Quote:
More than 1,200 Gazans have been killed, about 80 percent of them civilians. But Israelis’ hands are clean and their consciences are quiet - so quiet you could cry.
...
It’s so easy to be an Israeli; your tender conscience is pure as the driven snow: Everything is Hamas’ fault. The rockets are the fault of Hamas; that can be taken for granted. Hamas started the war, for no reason; that, too, “goes without saying.” Hamas is a vicious terrorist organization, beasts in human form, born to kill, fundamentalists – and apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
edka
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:34 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 35):
So, it seems, even some Israelis can see the situation for what it is.

There are many Israelis that think this, much more that people realize. The difference is that there is almost no opposite on Palestinian side.
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6855
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:44 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 31):
Don't trip him, he's so high up on his horse, that would be one nasty fall back down to reality.

Oh dear. Looks like I've hit a nerve . . .

Quoting bchandl (Reply 34):
True. Most of the schools and hospitals were taken care of already by the suicide Islamic martyrs because of their anti-women, anti-western influence Islamic extremist views.

You're leaving out inter-Islamic hatred, but I'd be inclined to leave them to it, given that we in the West don't directly support either branch.
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:00 pm

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 32):
But Britain and Ireland don't share a land border. There's the Irish sea in between.

Not quite, PhilBy. There are six counties on the north-east corner of Ireland that remain part of the United Kingdom, not the Irish Republic.
 
PhilBy
Posts: 840
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:44 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:21 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 38):
Not quite, PhilBy. There are six counties on the north-east corner of Ireland that remain part of the United Kingdom, not the Irish Republic.

They are part of the United Kindom (full title: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland), but not part of Great Britain.

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 32):
Britain and Ireland don't share a land border.
 
bchandl
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:49 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:25 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 35):
Giving how much notice, exactly?

From what I understand it has been as much as 72+ hour notice, but most of the time it is between 24-48hrs.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 35):
Except there isn't anywhere.

Weird, I think I gave a list of potential places to go.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 37):
Oh dear. Looks like I've hit a nerve . . .

Nope. Your comments only exist in an attempt to get a rise out of someone and I'm not going to give you what you clearly want.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 37):
You're leaving out inter-Islamic hatred, but I'd be inclined to leave them to it, given that we in the West don't directly support either branch.

I honestly don't know what you are trying to say here. Read this aloud exactly how it is written....Uh, what? Care to try and rephrase or elaborate? [Being sincere here]
 
jfk69
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:04 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:25 pm

Here is a problem, the people of probably can't live on their own but why is no other arab country helping them get going?

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ExodusFromGaza.html
Look at the pictures on the bottom of the link and you will see that they had an economy in place when the Israeli's pulled out in 2005. Instead of using the greenhouses (which employed thousands of Palestinians, they looted and destroyed them....and then used the area to build arm smuggling tunnels.

I think the rest of the Islamic world has to recognize Israel so we can all work together to stop this crap and get calm and peace.
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 4494
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:07 pm

The IDF seems to be using flechette shells. Nasty.  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-rounds-in-gaza-strip-9617480.html
http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/0...ram-to-murdering-13-gaza-children/

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 10):
They're just the quickest, cheapest and least discriminating methods available.

But hey, an 80% civilian kill rate could happen to anyone, right?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
So what if it happened once

Its happened more than once! Israel has no qualms about bombing UN buildings.

24th July. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28468526

30th July. Quoting EDKA (Reply 22):
I always said, if Hamas were to disarm and become just a political party, Israel should talk to Hamas
If only.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 26):
just as there's no talking with the likes of Avigdor Lieberman

Nor Bibi. He has made it clear that he has no intention of letting a two state solution ever come to fruition. The defense minister is proud to have taken peace negotiations 'off the agenda'.
http://bit.ly/1lfT2iW

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 27):
UN issued a warning to Israel about bombing UN shelters.

The UN is protecting more than 200,000 people (just over 10% of the population) at its various facilities. Anyone who has ever exited a crowded stadium knows that it takes quite a while. Especially if one intends to take the old/frail/infirm (or several kids) out too. Most of them seem to have been asleep anyway.

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 41):
I think the rest of the Islamic world has to recognize Israel so we can all work together to stop this crap and get calm and peace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative



[Edited 2014-07-31 07:14:23]
First to fly the 787-9
 
bchandl
Posts: 646
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:49 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:41 pm

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 42):
Its happened more than once! Israel has no qualms about bombing UN buildings.

24th July. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28468526

30th July. Quoting EDKA (Reply 22):
I always said, if Hamas were to disarm and become just a political party, Israel should talk to Hamas
If only.

Not confirmed Israel bombings. Palestinian journalists initially reported they were Hamas rockets.

bchandl
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 12733
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:01 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 7):
Really, or just lip service....Because......

Really. I live in a place called reality with complicated issues.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 7):
Presumably, because there is no water to drink, maybe ?

Because they use the water to make alcohol instead of watering the gardens. Take a look at how they have used the money and materials given to them to buy rockets and build tunnels. You think this is proactive towards bettering their situation? I think you lip service of support is not based on any above ground concrete platforms.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 7):
What is there to look forward too. Israel has cut them off effectively, over many decades, like cancer slowly spreading through your system, until there is no hope, very hard to see light at the end of the tunnel, excuse the pun !

No it is not just Israel, it is Egypt too, and it is because the Gaza strip has proven themselves incapable of taking the path to peace. Their dreams are their owns ,but when they turn them into nightmares for their neighbors, they are going to get the repercussions.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Thread starter):
Israel has strangled them, Israel stops people (Gazans) from going to work, they stop Gazans students from going to universities, they stop the sick and ill, from gaining hospital treatment when needed....And all this happening before the current situation....Many many years before infact.Why ?

Because the Gazans have sided with terrorists. I notice you don't bring up the Palestinians in Israel that are able to work, go to school and move around because they have rejected terrorism.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
As I clearly stated, once any kind of life vision or clarity have been lost, and feelings are numbed, those things cease to be important and people are easily manipulated.

So you agree then that the Gazans are reaping what they sowed

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 12):
Black and white absolutism like that is a prime instigator in the failure to resolve these issues substantially. It is mind-boggling to suggest that thinking as Hamas does is the way to defeat Hamas (never mind that doing so willfully abandons all kinds of important values)

When Rockets are being launched, shades of grey don't matter.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 28):
I'll pass on that, thanks. I wouldn't be pushed on living next to a country which has no qualms about bombing children to smithereens.

Who said the Israel's don't have any qualms? They have a larger requirement to protect their country. If Hamas finds their jollies in continuing the fight from UN Sites and shelters, then they are the ones committing the ultimate war crimes.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6855
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:58 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 44):
Who said the Israel's don't have any qualms?

This is part of the problem. And you complain that Israel is coming under increasing international condemnation?
 
User avatar
Asturias
Posts: 1977
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 6):
IMO if we deny them any moral victory by NOT making schools, hospitals, mosques and other public places a *target*, then they lose.

I don't mean to be flippant here, but then we'd see Hamas engineers design missilebase/kindergarten combo units.

And yet I'm being pretty serious, because that basically what Hamas is doing on an ad-hoc basis, but the end result is the same. Defend themselves with human shields, one way or another.

But setting that aside, let's say all public buildings are off-limits to artillery fire and rockets, and predictably being used (as they are now) for aggressive action (such as firing rockets at Israel) by Hamas.

How would you suggest Israel deal with that? No threats or targets that aren't surrounded by human shields. What to do?

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 10):
Do you really believe that the only way to kill a terrorist is with artillery or airstrike? They're just the quickest, cheapest and least discriminating methods available.

They certainly have their drawbacks, but is urban warfare better? You'd get more IDF killed that way, and if you're Hamas, that's great. But would it cost fewer civilian lives? A rocket does not discriminate, but neither do bullets or grenades. There is no magic solution here to eradicate the chance of civilian casualties.

Considering we saw a war only a decade ago where 100 000 civilians were killed certainly ruffled some feathers in some places but people didn't go apeshit like now, when there is an actual defensive war going on and the civilian death toll is very low.

Have you even considered how low the Israelis have managed to keep the civilian death toll in Gaza? 1000 people in a population of 1.8 million. In the Iraq invasion 1 civilian died for every 330, in this conflict it's 1 for every 1800.

It's evident that Israel is doing everything possible to minimize civilian deaths. And it is succeeding. Israel shows amazing restraint considering what the Israelis are up against.

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 39):
They are part of the United Kindom (full title: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland), but not part of Great Britain.

  very true.
Tonight we fly
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19544
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:25 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 40):
From what I understand it has been as much as 72+ hour notice, but most of the time it is between 24-48hrs.

Haaretz suggests it's much shorter than that.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 12733
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:37 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 45):
This is part of the problem. And you complain that Israel is coming under increasing international condemnation?

And yet, they have to protect their citizens from Hamas and Gaza, who take international funds and then build tunnels, rockets, and morters to launch terrorist attacks with. Hamas uses the International funded schools and hospitals as the launching sites? The IDF has made clear they will attack the site where these launches occur, and they have made true on that.

It would be interesting to know how many of these sites were hit by Misfired Rockets from Hamas though.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 10201
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:45 pm

Sorry, but if, say, Cuba were to launch 3000 missiles into the US, (which is how many missiles Hamas launched just last week), who here would have a problem with turning Cuba into a big hole in the water? Not I.

Here is a classic illustration of war strategy that dates back before Sun Tzu. If the enemy is too powerful to be defeated, do not fight him. There is no way in hell that the Palestinians (or frankly the entire Arab world) could beat Israel in a straight fight, as was proven several times before. Had this conflict existed 100 years ago, it would have been over, as the Palestinians long ago would have accepted the situation and moved on with their lives.

The only reason that this is still going on is because of modern Media, and the willingness of Hamas to use their own people as as martyrs and victimize them for the world press, so that the hand-wringing, oxygen-stealing mouth-breathers who feel so rotten about their own accomplishments in life that they must protest, however superficially, the ill treatment of those poor, poor innocent people (who just happen to vote for terrorists every chance they get) in order to feel better about themselves. YOU are the ones keeping the fight alive. YOU are the audience Hamas is targeting for the show, no differently than when MTV targets a particular demographic for one of their inane, insipid and fatuously emotional reality shows. Feel good about that?

Come to think about it, I just realized that the target demographic for both are pretty much the same.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:05 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 2):
You fail to understand "why" they run to Hamas.

Because Israel has given Gazan's nothing to hope for. Simple.

Lets say Israel does all of that; and Hamas/IJ are still around and still wanna kill Jews/destroy Israel? Then what?
 
flyingawareness
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:48 pm

RE: Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:08 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 17):
Yes, and they bombed them because the schools double as Hamas launching pads and armories.

This is nothing but Israeli propaganda and excuses. Israel says this about everything they indiscriminately blow up - they always claim that Hamas is using the structure - whatever Israel do, Hamas is always somehow to blame.

A country that thinks it is incapable of making mistakes, justifies atrocities, and never admits when they are wrong, cannot be trusted in the eyes of any sane, rational human being.

When Israel bombed that hospital a few days back, a hospital full of patients in which some died in their beds, it even admitted that Hamas wasn't in the building itself - just that they were "in the general vicinity near the location of the hospital". How does that, in any way, justify bombing the hospital itself? And even if Hamas were there - what about all the innocent patients? Israel seem to think that to take a single Hamas militant life is worth killing dozens of civilians.

Israel bombed a market full of innocent civilians. No mention of Hamas at all, just hot-air claims that Hamas regularly used the market as a launching site, or hideout, or whatever.

Yesterday's shelling of a school being used as a UN-shelter for refugees was the very, very last straw for me. I can't remember how many children or adults were killed this time. They shelled it repeatedly, despite repeated warnings that it was packed with innocent refugee civilians - people who were only made refugees in the first place because the Israelis have bombed countless civilian homes without any reason or justification.I believe this is at least the 4th UN school shelter they have attacked, so why this one is even making the headlines, I'm not sure - but even the US have finally stepped up and called it totally unacceptable: www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28594155" target="_blank">www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28594155

A day before this (may have been longer), Israel hit a children's play-park with an airstrike, killing 8 children. I guess those damn Hamas terrorists must be hiding EVERYWHERE, huh? They must be everywhere at once....

I've nothing else to say about this. This entire military campaign has utterly disgusted me. The Israeli military are nothing less than mass murderers and they are guilty of war crimes in my eyes, and I'm sure the eyes of many millions around the world.

One day they'll reap what they sew. It isn't just Hamas that's fighting them - recently Fatah have been firing rockets from both Gaza and the West Bank, and about a week ago, a few people were killed by Israeli forces in West Bank rioting. I wonder if Hezbollah will get involved in this, but I doubt it - they're nowhere near as strong as they were back in 2006 and it would be a foolish move on their part. But Israel have lost 56 soldiers since the ground invasion of Gaza began. And rocket fire hasn't stopped, though whether or not it's been reduced, I don't know. So none of the murder that Israel has committed has helped or changed anything. But then again, this whole campaign was never about stopping rocket fire, or about the Israeli teenagers, or about Hamas tunnels - it's about the bloody ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. I know the pro-Israelis on here will just slate me for saying that, but I don't care - it's the truth. Of course, I'll be accused of supporting Hamas - a vile organisation that couldn't stand any farther from what I believe in - just for not taking Israel's side in this.

What I don't understand about the Israeli supporters on here is their complete detachment from the reality of the situation. Their absolute lack of empathy for the poor Palestinian civilians who are caught up in this. How can you watch children dying, screaming for their mothers, fathers and mothers screaming and praying for mercy from "Allah" after their children and friends have been killed... the suffering, the blood-shed, the chaos... how can you watch those videos, see the pictures, or even just read about it - and simply not care? These people don't deserve this. And it isn't all Hamas' fault - often there is no solid evidence that Hamas is using human shields, and even when they do, Israel will still bomb an area or structure whilst knowing full well that it's full of innocent civilians, without any restraint, and then still blame it on Hamas for using "human shields" - it's just a cop-out on the Israeli military's part, so that they don't have to admit responsibility for what they've done. Even if they did face up to this responsibility, I don't believe they'd care. I don't believe the Israeli military care how many civilians they murder, I don't believe they care about the suffering they have caused. I don't believe they have a conscience when it comes to killing Palestinian men, women, children and babies.

I know that Hamas aren't blameless - I know that they also don't care when Palestinian civilians die, because that gives them the excuse they need (as if they needed any in the first place) to demonise Israel in their propaganda and encourage more people to join the resistance - I know they target civilians with their rockets. But how many people have been killed by rocket attacks in this 3 week conflict so far? Just 4.And thousands of rockets have been fired.. it doesn't make it right, but the Israeli's are given plenty of warning when rockets are incoming, and they have a missile defence system to deal with them. The rockets will sometimes damage structures, but their main purpose is psychological - to create fear and disrupt everyday life in Israel's towns and cities. But this just doesn't compare to what Israel is doing right now... and with all due respect, anyone who thinks this military campaign by Israel is justified or warranted in any way is either stupid, delusional, or just plain cold-blooded... because it's completely disproportionate.

Just compare this:

- Over 1,400 dead Palestinians now, about 85% of them civilians, with over 400,000 made homeless, and entire areas of Gaza reduced to rubble.

- 3 dead Israeli citizens, none made homeless, and some damaged buildings from rockets (I'm afraid I don't know how many - could be under or over a dozen).

How does this compare? Bear in mind that 56 Israeli soldiers have also been killed, (most have been shot, some killed in a mortar attack, and some killed in an apparent booby trap) but I'm talking about civilians - it's the innocent civilians who have paid dearly for this conflict, and the numbers for each side simply don't compare.

This is a brutal campaign of mass-murder by the Israeli military, and it has to stop. It cannot be justified and anyone who attempts to is either ignorant, stupid, or just plain twisted.

Also, what if violence from the West Bank erupts and they are bombarded by rockets, mortars or bullets by Fatah's militants - there have already been riots there, and if things continue like this, a full-scale war campaign could end up happening. That's the last thing Israel wants, and the West Bank is far bigger and there are far more places to hide unlike landlocked Gaza - if attacks start coming from the West Bank then Israel will find itself in a much tougher situation that won't be so easy to handle. Then how many more innocent civilians will die in this mindless violence?

Sorry for the rant, buy I'd like to close by saying that the UN and the USA need to start imposing very touch sanctions on Israel for their disproportionate use of force. Israel need to learn that they cannot act above the law, just because they have seemingly ubiquitous influence in the highest levels of government throughout the Western world. The world must not bow down to Israel. The world must not remain silent on the atrocities Israel is committing.

[Edited 2014-07-31 13:20:14]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: flyguy89, Kent350787, MaverickM11 and 75 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos