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fr8mech
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Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:08 pm

We have officially lost our collective minds.

Is there a risk? Yes. But, life is full of risks. And, quite simply, in these cases, I don't think the risks were that high.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2...ms-arrest-over-letting-daughter-p/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-...7-year-old-son-went-to-park-alone/

I let my kids (11 & 8) wander the neighborhood, by themselves. We've left them at the school playground, playing with other kids.

I refuse to bubblewrap my kids.

I won't even get into what my childhood was like, growing up in Flatbush, Brooklyn.

I heard a commentary on this on the radio this am and it sums it up perfectly:

"We demand free-range chickens, but cage up our kids."

Discuss.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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tommy1808
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RE: Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:35 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):

I let my kids (11 & 8) wander the neighborhood, by themselves. We've left them at the school playground, playing with other kids.

Its simply insane. Kids are not stupid, they are just small. Being alone is part of growing up, not letting your kid go to a park alone, if the dangers of the way are age appropriate, .... now that i would call neglect.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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casinterest
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RE: Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:19 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
Is there a risk? Yes. But, life is full of risks. And, quite simply, in these cases, I don't think the risks were that high.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2...er-p/

Well if you look in the picture you can see the real issue. She is a Gator fan in Bulldog/Gamecock territory  


Seriously though , this is stupid. I used to stay at home all summer from 10 years old on, with the exception of a week or two of soccer camp. Sometimes my friends and I went to the park . sometimes the pool. The DA is probably going to drop this one.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:35 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):
The DA is probably going to drop this one.

You would hope so, but the fact that the police arrested her, put her in jail for the night and she lost custody for over 2 weeks is indicative of a problem.

The government, through actions such as these, is making it difficult to raise children that will become self-sufficient, producing/contributing members of society. And, don't misunderstand me, it's not just the government(s), there are more than enough parents, and other interested parties, that have no problem abdicating some of the basic parental decision making processes to others.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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desertjets
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RE: Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:43 pm

I would say no, and agree with the civil liberties group calling it an overreach of police authority and that the laws that the moms were arrested on are awfully vague.

As I don't have children I don't really know what my threshold would be for letting my kids be on their own. But what really concerns me is that these working, single mothers literally have zero options for child care outside of the school year. Having your kid walk down and hang out at the local park with other kids during the summer should not be criminal, but I think it is a problem when that is your only option. The fact that there are not low or no cost summer programs is sad.
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jetblueguy22
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RE: Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:59 pm

I don't think it's child neglect at all. What we are creating in this country is a bunch of hand holders. I see it all the time at my University. Some nice, bright kids who can't survive because mom isn't there to cook, clean, do their laundry etc. They just can't handle it. When I was 10 I was riding my bike to the playground with my buddies. I was playing 18 holes of golf every day with my 10 year old buddies. My parents never neglected me. They made sure I was in a safe spot and let me run free. The only rule was be back by 5 or else you're in trouble. If there was an issue we handled it. Enough of the coddling in this country, it's getting ridiculous.
Pat
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DocLightning
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RE: Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:06 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):
You would hope so, but the fact that the police arrested her, put her in jail for the night and she lost custody for over 2 weeks is indicative of a problem.

And here's the bit that gets my goat: the government did damages to her but owes her no damages. There will be NO recompense at all and the officers who did this stupidity will at the absolute worst get a small slap on the wrist, like two days without pay or something.

It's a major problem in the USA. Our police are increasingly out of control. We recruit the school bullies and put them in uniforms.

Spain had this problem and so they rigorously train and test their Guardia Civil so that they hold themselves to a very high code of ethics. You don't see police brutality all the time in Spain. Their police are part of the community and actually serve and protect, rather than viewing themselves as a military force whose job it is to harass citizens and dole out vigilante justice.

And because the DA has to work closely with the police, the DA won't usually prosecute malicious officers. SWAT teams raid houses at the wrong address, police lock people up even when they can prove that they're not the suspect on the warrant, etc. etc. etc. There was that case of the young man who got locked in a cell with no food, water, or toilet for five days recently. There is complete impunity.

And it has to stop.
-Doc Lightning-

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vikkyvik
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RE: Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:28 pm

I'm not a parent yet, but I don't know if I'd let my 7-year old walk to the park by him/herself. Depends on the neighborhood, I suppose.

But being charged with felony child neglect because of it? That's just freaking stupid.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
Maverick623
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RE: Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:29 pm

One word: Florida.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
and the officers who did this stupidity will at the absolute worst get a small slap on the wrist, like two days without pay or something.

Not a chance. They won't even get a no-no letter in their file.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
tommy1808
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RE: Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:57 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
One word: Florida.

oh, the state where the Mafia puts a hoody in your bed instead of a detached horse's head to let you know that you will get killed?

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Mir
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RE: Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:12 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):
But being charged with felony child neglect because of it? That's just freaking stupid.

It's almost as if there's some sort of push to aggressively prosecute low-income people knowing that they aren't likely to be able to put up much of a defense so that they can be put in a prison outsourced to a private company so that that company can make more money while the government gets to look like they're tough on crime.

But that would never actually happen, would it?

-Mir
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fr8mech
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RE: Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:58 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 10):
It's almost as if there's some sort of push to aggressively prosecute low-income people knowing that they aren't likely to be able to put up much of a defense so that they can be put in a prison outsourced to a private company so that that company can make more money while the government gets to look like they're tough on crime.

Personally, I think it's more of a busy-body government doing their damnedest to intrude on every part of our lives. The government(s) always know what's best for us, and they'll let us know when we step out of bounds.

But, that's just me.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 7):
Depends on the neighborhood, I suppose.

Exactly. And, that's a decision the parent should make.

The pool our kids use is exactly .65 miles from my front door to the gate. I allow my children to go to the pool, on their own. They know the rules of the road...and we live in a quiet neighborhood. And, before the nannies here get their panties in a bunch, both children had to take a 'test' administered by the pool management before they were allowed to enter the pool area without an adult. The youngest is confined to the shallow end if we are not there.

See, that's how it should work.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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bchandl
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RE: Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:31 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 1):
Its simply insane. Kids are not stupid, they are just small. Being alone is part of growing up, not letting your kid go to a park alone, if the dangers of the way are age appropriate, .... now that i would call neglect.

This was not neglect. Stupid? Maybe, there aren't enough details specific to the incident (crime in the area etc) but not criminal.

This woman could get 5 years in jail!

The kid was there with a bunch of other children (friends) and other adults. Just shameful they are actually trying to bring this charge.

It will never end in a conviction. Won't get to trial. A jury of her peers would laugh this right out of a courtroom.

bchandl
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:37 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 12):
This woman could get 5 years in jail!

And of course, that will help the kid immensely!

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
And, before the nannies here get their panties in a bunch, both children had to take a 'test' administered by the pool management before they were allowed to enter the pool area without an adult. The youngest is confined to the shallow end if we are not there.

Same deal at the swim & tennis club I went to when I was a kid. I literally spent all day, every day there during the summer. And once I passed the age cutoff in the club rules (10 years old, maybe?), I was there all day, every day, without parental supervision.

Hell, I was a better swimmer than 80% of the adults there anyway. And it was probably nice for my parents to get some "time off" during the summer!

If I had kids in a neighborhood similar to where I grew up, I'd have no qualms letting them walk or bike around it on their own once they'd proven that they were capable and careful.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Child Neglect?

Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:59 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
It's a major problem in the USA. Our police are increasingly out of control. We recruit the school bullies and put them in uniforms.

So you're calling me a bully because I'm a cop?
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
Superfly
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:31 am

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
growing up in Flatbush, Brooklyn.

A friend of mine and his wife bought a home there 10 years ago. I like that part of New York. It's mostly Caribbean folks now. Very friendly & down to earth people. I like that you can get jerk chicken at 3:00AM in Flatbush. I also like the illegal (gypsy) taxis that run along Atlantic, Uttica an East Parkway.
It's not stuck up & pretentious like Manhattan.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
"We demand free-range chickens, but cage up our kids."

Sad but true. America is turning upside down!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
It's a major problem in the USA. Our police are increasingly out of control. We recruit the school bullies and put them in uniforms.

  
There are an increasing number of bad cops being exposed in America. This is precisely why I can't unconditionally 'back the badge' as some people do. There are some serious problems with police in the US.
There are so many cases now of cops beating up elderly women, handicap people in wheelchairs an small children.
This seriously needs to be addressed.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
Personally, I think it's more of a busy-body government doing their damnedest to intrude on every part of our lives. The government(s) always know what's best for us, and they'll let us know when we step out of bounds.

But, that's just me.

  
That is exactly what's wrong in America. It's only going to get worse as long as we vote in favor of giving the government more power.

Quoting bchandl (Reply 12):
This woman could get 5 years in jail!

Yet the current administration in the White House is encouraging children this age to roam over a 1000 miles from Central America through Mexico to illegally enter the United States an get rewarded with free housing, food, education, clothes an other goodies!



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 14):
So you're calling me a bully because I'm a cop?

Not all cops are bullies an we know you're one of the good guys. Then again, everyone in North Dakota is nice.  
However you can't deny that there are some sick an disgusting people wearing the uniform that are harassing an killing innocent people. There are too many cops that wear their badges on their d!cks an escalate situations that can be dealt with in a more professional manner.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Mike89406
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:06 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):

Brings back memories... I worked in Sheepshead Bay 12 years ago and used to drive a couple miles up Kings Hwy to Flatbush Ave to get Jamaican food. I also miss Golden Krust patties. Luckily there are 3 decent Jamaican restraunts In San Diego  

Manhattan becomes overated and touristy when you live in any of the other boroughs.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:14 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 14):
So you're calling me a bully because I'm a cop?

You might be one of the exceptions  

In Norway children aren't allowed to be left alone under 10 years of age, in NZ it's 14.
 
bchandl
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:40 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
Yet the current administration in the White House is encouraging children this age to roam over a 1000 miles from Central America through Mexico to illegally enter the United States an get rewarded with free housing, food, education, clothes an other goodies!

Hey look SuperFly, you don't have to remind me how big of an idiot we have in the White House.

I totally agree with you, and it's to build his future voting block.

" get rewarded with free housing, food, education, clothes an other goodies!"

This is the campaign slogan of the Democratic party to all it's voters. It's what they base all their legislative choices on, "what laws can we create to give the non federal taxpayers of America the money of the taxpayers?"

But that isn't this topic, so i digress.

bchandl
 
tommy1808
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:31 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
In Norway children aren't allowed to be left alone under 10 years of age, in NZ it's 14.

Damn, here kids can make their first own purchasing contracts at age 7. To do so, obviously, they have to go shopping alone.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
bchandl
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:48 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 19):
Damn, here kids can make their first own purchasing contracts at age 7. To do so, obviously, they have to go shopping alone.

That's European craziness for you.

In the American south, you can own a fully automatic weapon by 7. God I love living down here!

Okay kidding, well maybe. I knew teenagers who's parents allowed them to have/bought them guns at or around 14. Although you can't legally "own" it until 18.

I had a 20 gauge shotgun around 12? Went hunting around that time. Shot my first deer, bird and cow (How we put the sick one's down on my friends farm) before I was 15.

But you can buy stuff at stores at any age, assuming it's legal. (i.e. not tobacco, alcohol, guns)

bchandl
 
Superfly
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:20 am

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 16):
Brings back memories... I worked in Sheepshead Bay 12 years ago and used to drive a couple miles up Kings Hwy to Flatbush Ave to get Jamaican food. I also miss Golden Krust patties. Luckily there are 3 decent Jamaican restraunts In San Diego

Flatbush also has a White Castle's.   Something you can't get in San Diego.

Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 16):
Manhattan becomes overated and touristy when you live in any of the other boroughs.

The tourist themselves didn't bother me that much. What annoyed me the most is all the transplants from other parts of the US that intentionally act rude, abrasive an snobbish - even though they're from West Virginia or Illinois. Many transplants feel they have to act that way because they live in Manhattan an have to live up to that stereotype. I found the ordinary people in Staten Island, Queens and in the Flatbush section of Brooklyn to be friendly an down to earth people.
Living in San Francisco for so many years, I got annoyed with tourist traps an transplants that overcompensate in trying to live up to a certain stereotype of the city.

Quoting bchandl (Reply 18):
Hey look SuperFly, you don't have to remind me how big of an idiot we have in the White House.

I totally agree with you, and it's to build his future voting block.

" get rewarded with free housing, food, education, clothes an other goodies!"

Today's illegals are tomorrows Democrats.

Next time I visit the US, I should fly to Mexico instead an just sneak across the boarder. That way I'll get free everything. My last trip I had to pay for everything myself.



Back in topic.
I'm surprised no one with common sense had stepped in. This mother had to go through at least a dozen people from the arresting officer to the police at the station. What the HELL is wrong with law enforcement in the US?
Bring back the Concorde
 
tommy1808
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:23 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 20):
That's European craziness for you.

smartly, it is limited to the money they have in their pockets (hence called something like pocket money paragraph), it is still a valid purchasing contract though.

Quoting bchandl (Reply 20):
Okay kidding, well maybe. I knew teenagers who's parents allowed them to have/bought them guns at or around 14. Although you can't legally "own" it until 18.

I started shooting at age 14, as many kids do, Germany is not as "Anti-gun" as many people chose to believe. To own a gun however, you have to be 18. To go hunting you have to be 16.

I think it is good to give kids an ever increasing level of responsibility, freedom to make own decisions and "danger" instead of pretending there is a magic age where everyone turns into a grown up.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
bchandl
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:06 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 22):
I started shooting at age 14, as many kids do, Germany is not as "Anti-gun" as many people chose to believe. To own a gun however, you have to be 18. To go hunting you have to be 16.

So you can shoot at 14 (or younger) but you can't shoot at animals until 16?

How does that make sense?

bchandl
 
bchandl
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:09 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):
Today's illegals are tomorrows Democrats.

I love this!

So true, too. It's the only reason they are pushing immigration reform, to buy votes. It's the same way with all their policies they promote. It's about buying votes, not what is best policy wise for America.

bchandl
 
PanHAM
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:26 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):
Flatbush also has a White Castle's. Something you can't get in San Diego.

Now I know hy they placed the White Castle near Metropolitan Ave close to Jamaica Queens, which starts on the "other side" of the Van Wyck...
 
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
PanHAM
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:30 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):
Flatbush also has a White Castle's. Something you can't get in San Diego.

Now I know hy they placed the White Castle near Metropolitan Ave close to Jamaica Queens, which starts on the "other side" of the Van Wyck...
 

to the Topic:

there are a couple of ppt. about us born in the 40s and 50s, wondering how we survived and became adults.. Which in turn means, how will these featherbedded Kids be able to survive as adults?
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:11 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
A friend of mine and his wife bought a home there 10 years ago. I like that part of New York. It's mostly Caribbean folks now.

It was very different 30+ years ago.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
is precisely why I can't unconditionally 'back the badge' as some people do.

I know enough local law enforcement officers here, including a couple on our emergency response team (our equivalent of a SWATT), and I don't have any problems with the way LMPD acts as an organization. I still tend to provide the police the benefit of the doubt and provide them a wide a latitude in the use of their discretion.

That having been said, I do believe Doc is correct. I don't believe the issue is 'bullies', I do think that police departments are hiring loads of veterans, as ready to go, and not doing as thorough a job as they can of training the military out of them when the run through the academy.

Quoting bchandl (Reply 23):
So you can shoot at 14 (or younger) but you can't shoot at animals until 16?

There is more to the shooting sports than just hunting.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 26):
Which in turn means, how will these featherbedded Kids be able to survive as adults?

Oh, I think they'll make it and survive into adult-hood; question is: what will they be able to do, on their own, when they get there. Or, will they have an over-reliance on 'authority-types' to protect, guide, advise, coerce, cajole, etc. them in their walk through life? If we don't expose them to dangers (carefully vetted and/or controlled, as age-appropriate) as children and teach them to properly deal with those dangers and their consequences; how can they be expected to be contributing members of society?

Right now, this very instant, my youngest is rough housing one of the dogs. I have warned him twice (today) that when dogs play, there are typically teeth involved. Now, Wendell (the Beagle) won't break the skin, but he will let The Boy know when he's had enough. And, I will let it happen, because it is a controlled exercise in danger. And, the 8 year old will learn...eventually...I hope.

[Edited 2014-08-01 05:25:42]
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
tommy1808
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:35 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 23):
So you can shoot at 14 (or younger) but you can't shoot at animals until 16?

How does that make sense?

shooting sports...

i think it makes a lot of sense for people to have 2 years of experience in safely handling and operating rifle and ammunition before being allowed to shot live rounds in the open.

Just like i think it makes sense to be allowed to drink alcohol before being allowed to operate heave machinery.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
bchandl
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:42 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
There is more to the shooting sports than just hunting.

I shoot clay pigeons quite frequently.

The place I go is nothing more than an open, marked off area, for a shooting platform/area.

That's extremely open. You have to be very vigilant of where you are at and what the others are doing around you.

Exact same principle applies to hunting. Not all sport shooting is indoor, partitioned shooting and rifle ranges.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 28):
Just like i think it makes sense to be allowed to drink alcohol before being allowed to operate heave machinery.

This is a terrible, inaccurate analogy. I get and respect your point but alcohol is an intoxicant, it affects decision making no matter how much experience you have had operating the machinery. Just a terrible analogy.

bchandl
 
PanHAM
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:01 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
Or, will they have an over-reliance on 'authority-types' to protect, guide, advise, coerce, cajole, etc. them in their walk through life? If we don't expose them to dangers (carefully vetted and/or controlled, as age-appropriate) as children and teach

I think you misunderstood my text. The above is exactly what we did NOT have in the 50s when I grew up We did not have this over protection either.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:25 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):

I think you misunderstood my text. The above is exactly what we did NOT have in the 50s when I grew up We did not have this over protection either.

Not at all. I just answered your question. Kids, now days, whether by helicopter parents or over-expanding government/social system are being conditioned to look somewhere else for the answers to life's problems. Someone or something will always be there to take care of you.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
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Tugger
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:14 pm

Quoting bchandl (Reply 18):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
Yet the current administration in the White House is encouraging children this age to roam over a 1000 miles from Central America through Mexico to illegally enter the United States an get rewarded with free housing, food, education, clothes an other goodies!

Hey look SuperFly, you don't have to remind me how big of an idiot we have in the White House.

I totally agree with you, and it's to build his future voting block.

" get rewarded with free housing, food, education, clothes an other goodies!"

This is the campaign slogan of the Democratic party to all it's voters. It's what they base all their legislative choices on, "what laws can we create to give the non federal taxpayers of America the money of the taxpayers?"

But that isn't this topic, so i digress.

bchandl

Now boys, stop making things up. The premise that Supe makes is a bald faced lie. But that doesn't matter to you does it?   And don't forget it has been Republicans that have refused to crack down on hiring of illegals which would actually stop the flow of most illegals (as the past decade has proven, no jobs, the flow of illegals dries up).

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 31):
Not at all. I just answered your question. Kids, now days, whether by helicopter parents or over-expanding government/social system are being conditioned to look somewhere else for the answers to life's problems. Someone or something will always be there to take care of you.

Whose kids? Mine aren't like that at all. They are taught and continually being taught to resolve things on their own and to work hard to make their way through life with self-sufficiency. So the "kids nowadays" fails at that point. There may be a problem with helicopter parents and a subset of kids that have them (the ones that are sick and tired of their parents hovering around and just waiting to get out) and some that can't cope, but most of the kids I know and see daily (and there are a lot inn my community) are smart and self sufficient enough. They roam the neighborhood going to friends houses and going to the local pool or park etc. Lots of parents too of course but the kids do a lot on their own. Even go the local store. Now I can't speak for the rest of the nation as I don't live everywhere, and I suspect neither do you. Don't believe everything you are told or fear...  

With all that said, the actions by the police in the OP are completely over the top and need to not be allowed. We need to be able to fire the people that do things like this. That will make them think twice before being so stupid. And regarding the guy that was left alone in the cell for five days, there is a lawsuit over that (which will result in a fat pay out) and I believe people have been terminated over it (I'll have to look into it more).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:57 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 32):
With all that said, the actions by the police in the OP are completely over the top and need to not be allowed.

You do realize that the police enforce the laws, right? Yes, they have some discretion, but that discretion tends to favor the current, general view on things, from an administrative perspective.

These officers, in these 2 incidents, felt it was OK to do what they did, because the current trend is to a more pervasive government presence in our daily lives. These guys didn't just decide that it was ok to arrest, charge and process these people, it is a result of culture.

As for the rest of your post:

All you need do is read the news to find that the government is doing it's damndest to take over the role of parent.

Here's another:

http://www.11alive.com/story/news/lo...arlie-mayes-teen-punished/9642971/

You know what's happening here: all kids going to school are now eligible for free food, regardless of means, so as to keep from stigmatizing the kids that get free lunch now. That is the State taking over the role of parent. It is my job to help my kids work through those issues, not the State's. Some parents suck at it, some don't. Those are the breaks.

http://www.courier-journal.com/story...s-incomes-get-free-meals/10241235/

Oh, by the way...at the school board meeting, all were told not to worry about the cost...it was free because it was an expansion of a federal program. Free, that's what they said...wouldn't cost us a dime.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 32):
Mine aren't like that at all. They are taught and continually being taught to resolve things on their own and to work hard to make their way through life with self-sufficiency.

Good. I'm glad. Your government...local, state and federal are working against you in this matter. They want your kids to rely on them for all kinds of things.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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Kiwirob
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:18 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
That having been said, I do believe Doc is correct. I don't believe the issue is 'bullies', I do think that police departments are hiring loads of veterans, as ready to go, and not doing as thorough a job as they can of training the military out of them when the run through the academy.

In Norway when a person trains to become a police officer they have two years training before they graduate, even when they graduate there is no guarantee of a job. This weeds a lot of the crap out of the system so on average the police offers here are ok, its the govt that doesn't fund them properly, hence the balls up at Utoya.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:27 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
Good. I'm glad. Your government...local, state and federal are working against you in this matter. They want your kids to rely on them for all kinds of things.

No, it is actually not working against me. But I do not need to try to convince you of that. From what I know you are like me and try your best to review information available and then draw your conclusions from that. We have just drawn different and divergent conclusions, partly due to our bias and view on the world. While I know there are a number of news stories out there on things both real and outrageous, I also know that these stories reflect a minority of the situation and are hyped and focused as a dire warning of what can happen. And we pay attention to that and in the larger scope it does not happen (you see it in some urban areas and often areas where there is a lack of parental involvement whatever the reason is for that lack).

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
Quoting Tugger (Reply 32):
With all that said, the actions by the police in the OP are completely over the top and need to not be allowed.

You do realize that the police enforce the laws, right? Yes, they have some discretion, but that discretion tends to favor the current, general view on things, from an administrative perspective.

These officers, in these 2 incidents, felt it was OK to do what they did, because the current trend is to a more pervasive government presence in our daily lives. These guys didn't just decide that it was ok to arrest, charge and process these people, it is a result of culture.

I am not talking about the officers specifically but the situation, that they can arrest a person for such an issue should not be allowed. If harm had occurred of course, but this was not a harmful situation. Something could have occurred that might warrant such an action but nothing did. They were preventative actions and that should not have lead to the arrest of the person. There was no law that said "arrest someone for this", as the article says the laws are vague and give the authorities "wide discretion" in how to respond. Apparently that discretion is too wide.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:13 pm

For the record, I will not take sides in this case. Maybe the cops were wrong, maybe there is more to the story not reported in the media (imagine that..) and that it was a good arrest...

However,
Harrell has no criminal record in South Carolina, where property records suggest she moved about three years ago, and the state's child welfare agency said she wasn't under investigation until now. She had a string of arrests in Florida, for drug possession, bounced checks, driving without a license and "nude or semi-nude acts." But her last brush with the law outside of a traffic violation came in 2006, when she was found guilty of cocaine possession.

Maybe there is indeed more to the story...or not...we don't know.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 34):
In Norway when a person trains to become a police officer they have two years training before they graduate, even when they graduate there is no guarantee of a job.

Technically it's three. One year in school, one year on the streets getting practical experience, one more year in school.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
Not all cops are bullies an we know you're one of the good guys.

Exactly. Not all cops are bullies, hence why I reacted to Doc's very broad and inaccurate statement.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
However you can't deny that there are some sick an disgusting people wearing the uniform that are harassing an killing innocent people.

They are the minority, however, just like in any other job.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 15):
There are too many cops that wear their badges on their d!cks an escalate situations that can be dealt with in a more professional manner.

This I will agree on.... However, we have pin on badges and that would really hurt to wear it there   

Quoting bchandl (Reply 29):
This is a terrible, inaccurate analogy. I get and respect your point but alcohol is an intoxicant, it affects decision making no matter how much experience you have had operating the machinery. Just a terrible analogy.

I think what he's getting at is that in Europe, kids will drink before they can legally drive, thus realizing the effect of alcohol on them before they can legally drive. In the US, kids can drive way earlier than they can (legally) drink. So if you have someone who has never drank until they turn 21, but have been driving for several years, they will not know the effects of alcohol the first time they drink and go driving afterwards.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 31):
Kids, now days, whether by helicopter parents or over-expanding government/social system are being conditioned to look somewhere else for the answers to life's problems. Someone or something will always be there to take care of you.

Yes there are still parents being parents out there, but too many parents and government agencies are coddling kids these days. No climbing in trees, you might fall. Cushioned mats underneath playground equipment. Everybody gets a prize...and so on and so on. I am surprised I am still alive after my childhood.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
These guys didn't just decide that it was ok to arrest, charge and process these people

If SC and FL are anything like ND, the cops can only arrest. It is up to the prosecutor to actually file charges on the person. If an arrest is made where there is not enough to charge someone, the prosecutor will decline charges and release the person. I will say, however, if I feel there is any doubt to whether or not I will get charges on something, I will let the person go and an arrest warrant will be issued later if the prosecutor wants to move forward.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 34):
its the govt that doesn't fund them properly, hence the balls up at Utoya

They need more funding, no doubt about it. However, I think the Utøya response was partially a result of Norway living in utopia and thinking this type of event would never happen there. As such, there was no plan on how to handle it once it did and they had to do everything as they went.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Child Neglect?

Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:27 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 38):
"nude or semi-nude acts."

She sounds like an interesting character. I'd like to see those photos.  
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 38):
Exactly. Not all cops are bullies, hence why I reacted to Doc's very broad and inaccurate statement.

Most of my run -ins with the cops have been positive. However I know that situations could have easily turned for the worse.
Many of the videos an stories I've been reading are so over the top that it's impossible to find any justification for some of their behavior.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 38):
They are the minority, however, just like in any other job.

True but the bad apples in other professions are just incompetent, unreliable or lazy - very few are bullies or a threat to society.
Bring back the Concorde
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Child Neglect?

Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:23 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 32):
And don't forget it has been Republicans that have refused to crack down on hiring of illegals which would actually stop the flow of most illegals (as the past decade has proven, no jobs, the flow of illegals dries up).

That is nothing but an absolute lie. It was liberal democratic immigrant-rights groups who tied up in court the most effective program yet at stopping illegal employment - E-Verify. Maybe you mean the Republican bastion in the State of Illinois that actually tried prohibiting its use, or the large Republican contingent in the California Legislature that limits its use? Oh, wait...

 
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DocLightning
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RE: Child Neglect?

Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:53 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 14):
So you're calling me a bully because I'm a cop?

Did I say every cop is a bully? No.

Are there a lot of cops who are? Yes. It's a position of power and bullies LOVE positions of power.

I'm all for a strong police force, but the first thing that we need to do is ensure that the people who get through the police academy go through some rigorous testing to ensure that they are NOT bullies.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/2...i-gardens-store-video-catches.html

http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/la...8-b502-11e3-ba1e-001a4bcf6878.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/01/ju...ke-hold-death/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...cla-cunningham-20140711-story.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/9-hor...g-botched-police-raids-2012-2?op=1

I have a burglar alarm system and yet I am afraid to have the cops respond to an alarm because I'm concerned the first thing they will do is shoot our dogs. In San Francisco, a cop actually drew a gun at my leashed dog because he barked at him.

Now, tell me... are there no cops who are bulles? None at all?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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Kiwirob
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RE: Child Neglect?

Sun Aug 03, 2014 7:41 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
I have a burglar alarm system and yet I am afraid to have the cops respond to an alarm because I'm concerned the first thing they will do is shoot our dogs.

So you're rather have the place trashed and looted, plus maybe you and your man get the snot kicked out of you or killed all for the life of a couple of dogs, you've got your priorities wrong. Dogs can be replaced, can you or your man be replaced?
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: Child Neglect?

Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:02 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 40):
So you're rather have the place trashed and looted, plus maybe you and your man get the snot kicked out of you or killed all for the life of a couple of dogs, you've got your priorities wrong. Dogs can be replaced, can you or your man be replaced?

No. What he is saying is he does not want to go through the trauma of being assaulted and robbed only to face the trauma of the police showing up and assaulting him all over again "because he might have been the robber" and killing his dogs. Sounds fair to me.

Personally I do not speak to police under pretty much any circumstances. The only answers I will give are one word yes or no answers that are required by law.

And with good reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
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Alfons
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RE: Child Neglect?

Sun Aug 03, 2014 9:34 pm

I would say it depends the park, the city and the location. But what surprises me is that a cop stopped the child. Cops are not stupid when it comes to security of the population. That park maybe has some history or there are reasons why cops sometimes show up there.
 
Superfly
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RE: Child Neglect?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 5:00 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
It's a position of power and bullies LOVE positions of power.

  

Every single bully I went to middle school an high school with became cops or wanted to be cops. One didn't live long enough to become a cop. Must have f--ked with the wrong person before going through the police academy.
My hope is that maybe they went through the military or had a life-changing experience that made them change their bullyish behavior. I have a sick feeling that they haven't.

A perfect example of bullies lusting for position of power is found in the TSA.
Many of those bullies would LOVE to become police officers but either can't pass the physical or cities are too broke to hire new ones. The TSA agent that gave me a hard time at LAX in my most recent trip report had 'LAPD reject' written all over him.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
I have a burglar alarm system and yet I am afraid to have the cops respond to an alarm because I'm concerned the first thing they will do is shoot our dogs. In San Francisco, a cop actually drew a gun at my leashed dog because he barked at him.

ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?!?!  Wow!
That cute little Dachshund I met 5 years ago?
Gee whiz!
Be careful now that you're in Oakland. The police there tend to harass people more than in San Francisco.

A friend of mine and his wife are really concerned because they have a son that is autistic. They fear that someday a police officer may not understand that their kid is a special needs person an may react to him violently. There seriously needs to be some sort of retraining or change recruitment policies when it comes to a lot of police officers. In the past, they'd only go after the bad guys but I'm reading of too many cases of elderly women, small children an handicapped being viciously being beat up by police officers. Something is seriously wrong in America.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
the police academy go through some rigorous testing to ensure that they are NOT bullies.

  

Perhaps former military people. The military would correct that sort of bad behavior real quick.


I had worked with a guy when I was in college that wanted to be a police officer so bad. He was only 5', 4". He had Napoleon syndrome really bad! He was such a tattle-tell/snitch an was always looking to get someone in trouble while on the job. This was a frikkin' customer service call center for a bank for crying out loud! If someone was late for work, or took an extended lunch break, he'd tell the boss (even though that wasn't his job duty). Everyone in the office hated that guy. He was such a kiss @ss. I was so glad to hear when he got beat up for ratting out an employee that was playing some online video game while at work.
He tried so hard to get on with just about every police department in the Bay Area. Every department rejected him but he finally got his wish an became a campus police officer for San Francisco State University. He didn't last long on the job. He was eventually fired an arrested for sexual assault and stalking several female students.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Child Neglect?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:45 am


Sums it up nicely

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 39):
Now, tell me... are there no cops who are bulles? None at all?

Apparently you didn't read my whole post...

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 41):
Personally I do not speak to police under pretty much any circumstances. The only answers I will give are one word yes or no answers that are required by law.

Even before becoming a cop myself, I never had an issue talking to cops. If you have nothing to hide, then why worry? I doubt it's any different in Canada..
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14142
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RE: Child Neglect?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 7:53 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 44):
If you have nothing to hide, then why worry? I doubt it's any different in Canada..

That something is nothing i have to hide doesn´t make it a strangers business to know.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
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RE: Child Neglect?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:06 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 44):
Sums it up nicely

In some cases, a crackhead is much easier to deal with.  
Come on KaiGywer. We're not picking on you or your profession. The vast majority of police are good people.
Yes there are bad apples in most professions. However there is very little tolerance for bad apples in professions where trust an public safety is at stake.
Doctor malpractice is one of them, bad teachers an the same goes for police brutality.
Some professions it almost expected to be some bad apples such as lawyers, politicians an used car salesmen.
Some professions it's extremely rare to hear of such bad apples; aircraft mechanic, paramedic, fire fighters an astronauts it's rare to hear of major screw ups an bad apples in those lines of work. Yet we hear an see an alarmingly high number of bad police.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 44):
If you have nothing to hide, then why worry?

Slippery slope.
Bring back the Concorde
 
bchandl
Posts: 646
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RE: Child Neglect?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:08 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 45):

Agreed. Cops get "Yes", "No" and "That's none of your business" answers.

When I get pulled over and ask where I am going and where I am coming from, well that is none of their business. They don't need to know those things to help them write my speeding ticket.

One time when I got a speeding ticket I was (admittably) flying down the road my apartment was on (52 in a 25). I didn't know he was behind me, or that there was even a cop nearby. I whipped into my complex and jumped out to run in and grab something I forgot. He pulls in behind me, I'm already out of the car at this point walking inside.

Next thing i know I had a taser gun pointed at me yelling at me to stop and get on the ground. Just lovely. I was then tackled, dog piled upon. While i was already on the ground.

I was just a college student who forgot his golf hat and was late for his afternoon tee time with his buddies and I got a gun pointed at me, for speeding.

I was then handcuffed where I decided to be an asshole because the ticket was a forgone conclusion.

Said he was going to get charged with fleeing. LOL what? I wasn't but I called him, his partner and his mother a few choice things. He was visibly upset by the mother comments. I found it quite humerous. Many fat jokes and vulgar insults were made and I left 30 min later.

I have no problem with a ticket, I deserved it. But the taser, unnecessary assault and handcuffs were out of line. I filed a complaint, but when your boss is the one doing the investigation of course no wrong doing was done.

Next time I got a ticket (a month ago) I just said yes sir, no sir and none of your business. I also live tweeted it. He didn't appreciate that.

Traffic Cops are just overeducated, ego tripping janitors.

bchandl
 
Superfly
Posts: 37705
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RE: Child Neglect?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:54 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 47):
Next thing i know I had a taser gun pointed at me yelling at me to stop and get on the ground. Just lovely. I was then tackled, dog piled upon. While i was already on the ground.

All of that was unnecessary. A simple writing of a ticket was all that needed to be done. The excessive use of force wasn't justified at all.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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KaiGywer
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: Child Neglect?

Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:14 am

Quoting bchandl (Reply 47):
When I get pulled over and ask where I am going and where I am coming from, well that is none of their business. They don't need to know those things to help them write my speeding ticket.

You'd be surprised how often treating a cop like a fellow human being will get you out of a ticket...

Quoting bchandl (Reply 47):
I was just a college student who forgot his golf hat and was late for his afternoon tee time with his buddies and I got a gun pointed at me, for speeding.

No, you got taken down because you're going double the speed limit and then when a cop tries pulling you over, you quickly park and take off. Tell me what part of this scenario is not a red flag?

Quoting bchandl (Reply 47):
Said he was going to get charged with fleeing. LOL what? I wasn't but I called him, his partner and his mother a few choice things. He was visibly upset by the mother comments. I found it quite humerous. Many fat jokes and vulgar insults were made and I left 30 min later.

I'm sure that helped your case immensely. I can write a traffic citation in five minutes, or I can take my sweet time making sure I cover every base..

Quoting bchandl (Reply 47):
Traffic Cops are just overeducated, ego tripping janitors.

And accountants are overeducated, ego tripping cashiers...
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