Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 3

KaiGywer · Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:37 am

Hi All,

As the previous thread has gotten quite long, Part 3 has been created to continue the discussion. The previous thread can be found here Israel Launches Ground Operation In Gaza Part 2 (by jetblueguy22 Jul 30 2014 in Non Aviation)

Regards,
Kai

NAV30 · Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:23 pm

First photographs I've seen of the enormous destruction visited upon Gaza.

My own feeling is that we are looking at attacks which were nothing short of genocide. Only God will ever know how many men, women, and above all children died in these attacks.

And only He will know how on earth the rest of the world can possibly restore some sort of 'quality of life' to the survivors......

As a small child living in the London suburbs during WW2, I was subjected to fairly regular air-raids by the Luftwaffe. I thought that they were quite bad - certainly I was often scared. But I never saw anything LIKE the damage that Israel has meted out to the Palestinians. God knows how many men, women, and children died in all those acres of total destruction......

To my mind, on this evidence, as I've said, only one word describes what Israel has been indulging in.

Genocide......... The wholesale slaughter of another race..........

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-0...ale-of-destruction-in-gaza/5653430

[Edited 2014-08-06 06:34:55]

sobh151 · Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:35 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 1):

My own feeling is that we are looking at attacks which were nothing short of genocide. Only God will ever know how many men, women, and above all children died in these attacks.

While I have many thoughts and questions regarding this whole situation, genocide does not come to mind. I reserve that concept for other circumstances. Say what you want for Israel, but they aren't interested in the destruction of a race.

NAV30 · Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:40 pm

Quoting sobh151 (Reply 2):
Say what you want for Israel, but they aren't interested in the destruction of a race.

Are you saying, sobh151, that all the Israeli bombs and missiles were carefully aimed at 'military targets'? Please look at those photographs again.........the camera doesn't lie?

sobh151 · Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:48 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 3):
Are you saying, sobh151, that all the Israeli bombs and missiles were carefully aimed at 'military targets'? Please look at those photographs again.........the camera doesn't lie?

I'm saying that you can devastate a place through war without it being a targeted genocide.

Example: I don't think the allied forces set out to exterminate Warsaw/ Poland during WWII. But Warsaw was in ruins after the war.

daviation · Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:49 pm

Oh my! And I just now booked a reservation for yet another trip to Israel this winter. On El Al yet!

Does anyone want to spank me?

You can argue till the cows come home. The Arabs have been determined to wipe out Israel long before there were any settlements or occupation. What were the excuses before 1967?

Despite all the braying, Israel is on track to have another record year in IPO tech startups. Mobileye has just raised $1-billion in automatically-driven cars. A thriving economy. So anyone who wants to boycott the soda machines or the fruits, go right ahead - it won't offset the billions pouring into Israeli tech.

It's sobering what the Palestinians could have achieved in the same years with Israeli cooperation: business, tech, education, agriculture. But there has always been an unwillingness to accept a Jewish homeland in the middle of the Arab-Muslim hegemony of the Middle East. Well, if Germany and Israel can be good partners, there is always hope that Palestine and Israel can someday be good partners too.

Acheron · Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:54 pm

Quoting sobh151 (Reply 2):
Say what you want for Israel, but they aren't interested in the destruction of a race.

Not for a lack of want...

It's bad PR when you try play the Holocaust pity card and then go on to slaughter civilians. Gaddafi got a knife shoved in his ass by the west for pretty much that...

NAV30 · Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:57 pm

An odd (and maybe slightly humorous) recollection of mine is that our end of the village copped a lot more bombs than any other part.- because we had a quite-impressive military-looking camp nearby. It was our misfortune - and that of the Germans and Italians quartered there - that it was actually a prison camp. But that's 'ancient history.'

Are you actually saying, on the evidence of the photographs I posted, that the Israelis were aiming at 'military targets'?

[Edited 2014-08-06 07:01:12]

sobh151 · Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:01 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 6):
Not for a lack of want...

Again, say what you want for Israel... But if we were intellectually honest, we would admit that destruction of the Palestinians is not they care about.

Acheron · Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:24 pm

Quoting daviation (Reply 5):
You can argue till the cows come home. The Arabs have been determined to wipe out Israel long before there were any settlements or occupation. What were the excuses before 1967?

That the zionist were "terrorists" just like the palestinians today are?

Israel was built on the basis of terror tactics from 1945 onwards

Quoting daviation (Reply 5):
Despite all the braying, Israel is on track to have another record year in IPO tech startups. Mobileye has just raised $1-billion in automatically-driven cars. A thriving economy. So anyone who wants to boycott the soda machines or the fruits, go right ahead - it won't offset the billions pouring into Israeli tech.

That's why Israel rises a fuss whenever there is talk about cutting the flow of the billions of dollars in "aid" that Israel gets from the US, right?

Quoting daviation (Reply 5):
It's sobering what the Palestinians could have achieved in the same years with Israeli cooperation: business, tech, education, agriculture.

Massive display of ignorance when it comes to the status of non-jews within Israel...

Good luck achieving anything in Israel when you are a second or third class "citizen".

zrs70 · Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:38 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 9):
Good luck achieving anything in Israel when you are a second or third class "citizen".

Huh???

Look at the non-Jews in Israel in elected office, on sports teams, in business, in beauty contests, in religious leadership, etc. Would you find the same in Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc?

sobh151 · Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:52 pm

Wow! I just read the Hamas charter for the first time in full. It's extraordinary:

http://hamascharter.com

seb146 · Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:59 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 10):
Look at the non-Jews in Israel in elected office, on sports teams, in business, in beauty contests, in religious leadership, etc.

Right. As long as you live by Israeli law in Isreal, there is no problem. But, if you are a person living in a non country and not willing to live by Israeli rules, you are nothing.

Acheron · Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:30 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 10):
Huh???

Look at the non-Jews in Israel in elected office, on sports teams, in business, in beauty contests, in religious leadership, etc.

Sure thing, buddy

From a 2005 State Department Report:

Quote:
The government generally respected the human rights of its citizens; however, there were problems in some areas, including the following:

-serious abuses by some members of the security forces against Palestinian detainees
-Palestinian terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians and Israeli Defense Force (IDF) soldiers resulted in the death of 29 civilians and an IDF soldier within Israel
-poor conditions in some detention and interrogation facilities
-improper application of security internment procedures (see annex)institutional,
-legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens
-discrimination in personal and civil status matters against non-Orthodox Jews
-societal violence and discrimination against women
-trafficking in and abuse of women and foreign workers
-de facto discrimination against persons with disabilities

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 10):
Would you find the same in Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc?

See, the difference is that those countries don't go around billing themselves as beacons on freedom in the region.

Keep in mind though, that Saudi Arabia, Egypt and their ilk are your buddies.

And the idiocy of saying and making the comparion "Yes Israel commit crimes but hey, the arabs are just as bad if not worse!!!111"

zrs70 · Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:44 pm

From haaretz:

Mahmoud Abbas' crucial message to Israel
Two crucial statements by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas mark a sea change in the Palestinian narrative of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

"Abbas’ admission that the Palestinian people’s fate could have been dramatically different if they had made wiser decisions is crucially important, because the Palestinian denial of responsibility for their own fate has led them to a state of freeze. Instead of moving toward compromise with Israel, too many Palestinians have waited for too many years for a reversal of history. They forget that they joined an all out war against Israel in 1948 and that they need to accept the consequences of their decision."

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/mahmou...crucial-message-to-israel-1.393351

windy95 · Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:32 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 1):
My own feeling is that we are looking at attacks which were nothing short of genocide

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 1):
Genocide......... The wholesale slaughter of another race..........

Quoting Acheron (Reply 6):
Not for a lack of want...

Wow!!! Stop drinking the kool-Aid

Quoting Acheron (Reply 9):
That the zionist were "terrorists" just like the palestinians today are?

Israel was built on the basis of terror tactics from 1945 onwards

This and the King David really gets old. You need another argument

Quoting Acheron (Reply 9):
That's why Israel rises a fuss whenever there is talk about cutting the flow of the billions of dollars in "aid" that Israel gets from the US, right?

We give aid to just about everyone. And yes Egypt has received more Aid from the U.S. than Israel has. We need to cut the flow to everyone including Israel.

JJJ · Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 12):
But, if you are a person living in a non country and not willing to live by Israeli rules, you are nothing.

They have never been given the choice. If Israel had just annexed the West Bank and Gaza and given citizenship to their residents the situation would be totally different.

The choice was between fight or be a third-class citizen at risk of having your property seized at any point.

Braybuddy · Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:15 pm

The mask is well-and-truly slipping with Israeli politicians:

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/08/knesset-genocide-against.html

If this is what we get to hear, it would be even more interesting to hear what's said behind closed doors.

TheCommodore · Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:33 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 1):
My own feeling is that we are looking at attacks which were nothing short of genocide.

Yes, agree NAV30.

The bombing covered an extraordinary area.

I simply don't believe that Hamas, was such a large and organized force, as to have been spread out this much, as the pictures clearly show.

Some more pics of "Before and After" shots, which only confirms my view, of all out mass destruction carried out by Israeli aggression on a great scale.

http://sploid.gizmodo.com/the-destru...e-and-after-satellite-i-1616438295

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 1):
To my mind, on this evidence, as I've said, only one word describes what Israel has been indulging in.

Israels international reputation is in tatters because of this, as this article states !

http://timeswarp.org/2014/08/06/isra...e-ny-times-puts-up-a-smoke-screen/

Quoting daviation (Reply 5):
Israeli cooperation

What Israeli "cooperation" are you talking about exactly ?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 15):
This and the King David really gets old. You need another argument

Why exactly... because your are ashamed to admit Israel could be described as "terrorists" for what they did ?

Acheron · Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:38 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 15):
This and the King David really gets old. You need another argument

Ah, yes, less pretend history didn't happen because it suits you. And it wasn't only the King David hotel and you lot know it.

Several bombs went off in 1938, killing +120 people, mostly arabs and british soldiers.
Another +60 people in 1939. And we are talking about bombs put in place by Irgun; if I were to include shootings, stabbing and other acts of violence as well as those made Haganah, Lehi and other cells, the numbers would be even bigger in the period of time that goes from the 1930's to late 1940's.

Oh, and lets not forget Deir Yassin.

Which at the end of the day explains a few things; Irgun was one of the most violent zionist terrorist cells in the Mandate and Benachen Begin, Likud's founder and current ruling party of Israel, was one of it's leaders.

That same Likud who just had a few members talk about either sending Gazans to concentration camps or killing their mothers.

Lovely bunch.

[Edited 2014-08-06 19:45:58]

NAV30 · Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:51 am

Some photographs of the London 'Blitz'...............

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=london+blitz&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=IRHjU-HhBNjq8AWhl4HIDA&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQsAQ&biw=1231&bih=603

And some of the later Allied reprisals on Germany...........

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Germany+allied+bombing&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=7xHjU-SBJ8jf8AXCj4DYBQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1231&bih=603

Anyone see any material difference between what the Germans did to Britain, and the Allies did to Germany, and what the Israelis are currently doing to the Palestinians?

There IS, in fact, one BIG difference. Britain had an Air Force, later reinforced by US air forces, and was able to defend itself.

The PBP ('Poor Bloody Palestinians") have no such thing. They are just defenceless targets..........

[Edited 2014-08-06 22:52:53]

Stealthz · Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:58 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 20):
The PBP ('Poor Bloody Palestinians") have no such thing. They are just defenceless targets..........

Then who is firing those hundreds of rockets at Israel??

Aaron747 · Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:43 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 19):
That same Likud who just had a few members talk about either sending Gazans to concentration camps or killing their mothers.

Lovely bunch.

Seriously. And they'll celebrate Shabbat tomorrow night with a straight face. Disgusting.

Couldn't agree more.

edka · Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:57 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 19):
Several bombs went off in 1938, killing +120 people, mostly arabs and british soldiers.
Another +60 people in 1939. And we are talking about bombs put in place by Irgun; if I were to include shootings, stabbing and other acts of violence as well as those made Haganah, Lehi and other cells, the numbers would be even bigger in the period of time that goes from the 1930's to late 1940's.

Oh, and lets not forget Deir Yassin.

Selective history, as always, when it comes to Palestine...How convinient...

While these crimes were of course committed by these organisations, one needs to understand the reason why they were set up in first place, which was to defend the Jewish population against Arab riots.

There were many killings and massacres instigated by Arabs against Jews, before 1938....This set the tone, as Jews were escaping from Europe, only to find they have been targeted again in Palestine. Dont need to be rocket scientinst to work this out. I am not justifying what Irgun and Lehi did, but you can clearly see why they were set up, especially back in those days...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...d_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine

For example:
Battle of Tel Hai - The event is perceived by some scholars as the first significant outbreak of violence, eventually leading to the Arab–Israeli conflict three decades later

PHX787 · Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:53 am

From an agnostic person's point of view, this whole Gaza thing is just a bunch of malarkey over pieces of rather infertile land....

Aaron747 · Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:41 am

Quoting EDKA (Reply 23):

Why were the locals upset following what transpired with Balfour's tacit approval of Zionism?

You don't tell the whole story either - that many Jews were put off by the prospects entailed with achieving a Zionist reality, and chose to go elsewhere rather than sell their souls to something possibly unjust.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 24):

Quite right to a large degree. Perfect example of why religion with political dimensions is always going to be bad for someone (or possibly everyone) involved.

scbriml · Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:27 am

Netanyahu says Gaza deaths "justified".
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ths-in-gaza-justified-9652725.html

Quote:
He said the intense bombardment was a necessary response to Hamas attacks, adding: “It was justified. It was proportionate.”

Right. I'd hate to see an unjustified, disproportionate response.

PhilBy · Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:37 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 20):
Anyone see any material difference between what the Germans did to Britain, and the Allies did to Germany, and what the Israelis are currently doing to the Palestinians?

Even before WW1 it was considered unacceptable to target civilians. Much of the damage done during WW2 was due to the imprecision of weapons systems at the time. Many of the industrial targets were located close to residential areas and misses accounted for most of the munitions dropped. I'm not saying that there was no-one on the allied side who proposed levelling cities at random but from what I've read they were a distinct minority. The doctrine behind the WW2 strategic bombing is described in "Aerospace Power in the Twenty-First Century" - US air force academy

"(Air Vice Marshall)Trenchard did not advocate the targeting of civilians per se; rather, he intended to attack industrial targets and infrastructure while limiting collateral damage. He believed that the “moral effect of bombing stands to the material in a proportion of 20 to 1” in terms of the effectiveness of an aerial-bombardment campaign. That is, the effect of bombing on a population’s will was more substantial than the physical damage it caused. Breaking the will of the people would come from indirect attacks against a nation’s production centers—not against their homes."

In contrast to that the Israelis have been using modern precision systems with a circular probability of error much smaller than the buildings hit yet they're causing similar levels of damage to non-military targets. It would be naive to suppose that they keep missing their intended targets and hitting residential buildings etc.

Aesma · Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:53 am

Quoting daviation (Reply 5):
You can argue till the cows come home. The Arabs have been determined to wipe out Israel long
before there were any settlements or occupation. What were the excuses before 1967?

I guess you don't know anything about the creation of Israel then, the eviction of entire villages of Arabs, doesn't ring a bell ?

Quoting daviation (Reply 5):
Well, if Germany and Israel can be good partners, there is always hope that Palestine and Israel can someday be good partners too.

We could talk about this if Israel had been created on German land, which would have only been fair. Instead, it was created on the land of people that had nothing to do with the Holocaust, and here we are.

NAV30 · Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:36 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 28):
We could talk about this if Israel had been created on German land, which would have only been fair. Instead, it was created on the land of people that had nothing to do with the Holocaust

I think that that is absolutely right, Aesma. During my childhood Palestine was known as 'the Holy Land,' and there is no doubt whatever that it has enormous significance for Muslims and Christians as well as Jews.

There can be no peace while a single religion demands 'sole rights' to the area. Agree with you that the appropriate place for a 'Jewish homeland' would have been South Germany, on the Swiss border. I served in Germany in the army in the late '50s, and there was no doubt that a large proportion of the German population was genuinely ashamed of their nation's conduct towards the Jews during 1939/45, and anxious to 'make amends.'

A 'Jewish national home' in that location would have worked. One founded (by force) in one of the few parts of the world that took no direct part in WW2 - Palestine - was never going to work. And, IMO, never will..........

[Edited 2014-08-07 05:44:43]

Revelation · Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:57 pm

Interesting talk of crusades, WWI, WWII, holocaust, etc but after listening to a pretty balanced and in-depth hour long radio show my thought is that it all comes down to Hamas deciding to fire rockets into Israel.

No rockets means no invasion, no mortars hitting UN 'safe zones' etc.

It really is the precipitating event. Weeks/months ago there were no significant number of rockets being fired. Once the level stepped up, Israel reacted. Sending unguided rockets that are equally likely to hit civilians and military targets is a war crime, full stop.

I dislike almost all of what Israel does with respect to settling the west bank, but that certainly doesn't justify the war crime of sending rockets.

As a secondary item one has to wonder why Hamas smuggles in tons of concrete to fortify tunnels yet chooses to spend none of it making any bomb shelters to protect its people?

Link to show: Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own

edka · Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:59 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 25):
Why were the locals upset following what transpired with Balfour's tacit approval of Zionism?

You don't tell the whole story either - that many Jews were put off by the prospects entailed with achieving a Zionist reality, and chose to go elsewhere rather than sell their souls to something possibly unjust.

I am sure there were such people, but my guess they would have been in minority.

You are referring to Jews that went to US, instead of Palestine. Most have chosen US because of better economic prospects, nothing else. Going to America was a dream, just like for many other non-Jewish immigrants. Going to Palestine was still a risk, but it was better than being persecuted.

What happened in Palestine historically, resembles what happened in US - the immigrants have overpowered the locals. In fact, the Jews have a stronger case for being in Palestine than in the US, due to historical connection. But that's not the point I am trying to make.

If you were a Jew back in the beginning of century and you had a chance to get your family out of Eastern Europe, you did it. It almost didn't matter where...

Of course the Arabs in Palestine didn't like it. But here is another historical fact for you, that many people either don't know or choose to ignore - originally much of the land was purchased officially by various Jewish organisations or individuals from the locals (interestingly enough, I have a colleague whose grandfather, a Christian Arab, sold land to Jewish family near Petakh Tikva, and used the money to take his entire family to US, where they have settled since)...Once Arabs realised the numbers of immigrants, they have banned sale of the land to Jews.

As I said before, while the conflict has developed over the years into extremely complex problem, its not that difficult to trace it back - if anyone wants to really understand the root of the problem.

Revelation · Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:00 pm

Wow, the forum software hates that link! Let's try http://tinyurl.com/p8vnxro instead... Or google "On Point: Israel And Gaza: The Moral Debate"...

JJJ · Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:03 pm

Quoting EDKA (Reply 23):
There were many killings and massacres instigated by Arabs against Jews, before 1938....This set the tone, as Jews were escaping from Europe, only to find they have been targeted again in Palestine. Dont need to be rocket scientinst to work this out. I am not justifying what Irgun and Lehi did, but you can clearly see why they were set up, especially back in those days...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...d_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine

For example:
Battle of Tel Hai - The event is perceived by some scholars as the first significant outbreak of violence, eventually leading to the Arab–Israeli conflict three decades later

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why.

From your link you can see a pattern: Up to the late 30s, the attacks are mostly, if not exclusively Arab against either Jews or British authorities stemming from Arab rejection of the Balfour declaration.

Afterwards, when the British started to shape what was to become the white paper of 1939, the attacks are mostly Jewish (Irgun), and then after the Jewish got their way in the UN vote, the Arabs went again on the offensive.

Contrary to what some people seem to believe you don't just start machete-ing your neighbours just because you feel like it. Maybe now there is, since there's enough bad blood between both groups that they can bomb each other without a shred of guilt.

And so we arrive here, with a terror group in charge of part of the PA lands, and a the ethno-nationalists in charge of the Knesset.

Here's an interesting read on how does Israel deal with dissent

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...rael_gaza_liberals_netanyahu_hawks

A few select quotes:

Quote:
Hawkish Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has found himself under pressure from politicians even further to his right. The premier has suspended negotiations with the Palestinian Authority, arrested more than 1,000 Palestinians, demolished the homes of several people convicted of no crimes, and launched an offensive in Gaza that has killed more than 1,800 people. That's not enough, even for some members of Netanyahu's own party, who see worrying signs of weakness.

Quote:
Scattered anti-war rallies have drawn small crowds, mostly in the low hundreds; the largest brought several thousand people to Tel Aviv on July 26. But most of the protests ended in violence at the hands of ultranationalists, who attacked them and set up roving checkpoints to hunt for "leftists" afterwards. Demonstrators have been beaten, pepper-sprayed, and bludgeoned with chairs.

Quote:
The only exception is Haaretz, where Gideon Levy, one of the newspaper's best-known columnists, has started reporting with a bodyguard after he was accosted during a live television interview in Ashkelon. Yariv Levin, a Knesset member from Likud and a chairman of the governing coalition, wants to charge Levy with treason because of his writing.

Quote:
people like Moshe Feiglin, a clownish figure from Likud and a deputy speaker of parliament. He called last week for the "conquest" of Gaza, and the "elimination of all military forces and their supporters." This is our land, he wrote, "only ours, including Gaza." Nobody has demanded his censure.

Does anyone really see a way out of this? Other than complete annihilation of one part there's not.

edka · Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:08 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 28):
We could talk about this if Israel had been created on German land, which would have only been fair. Instead, it was created on the land of people that had nothing to do with the Holocaust, and here we are.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 29):
Agree with you that the appropriate place for a 'Jewish homeland' would have been South Germany,

That's just another misconception. While Germany is responcible for Holocaust, Jews were persecuted way before that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

NAV30 · Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:20 pm

Quoting EDKA (Reply 34):
That's just another misconception. While Germany is responcible for Holocaust, Jews were persecuted way before that.

I suppose that the obvious follow-up question, EDKA, is WHY the Jews were (and perhaps continue to be) persecuted so mercilessly, Europe-wide?

I really don't have any definite opinion on that subject..............?

[Edited 2014-08-07 06:25:18]

edka · Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:27 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 33):
Does anyone really see a way out of this? Other than complete annihilation of one part there's not.

The way i see it, one possible way would be for Palestinians to accept Camp David terms and denouce all terrorist activities against Israel. As far as refugees - they will need to be resetled either in Palestine or other Arab countries.
In return, Israel should remove all settlements in WB and commit to financial and economic support to Palestinians.

Otherwise, no.

PhilBy · Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:42 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 35):
I suppose that the obvious follow-up question, EDKA, is WHY the Jews were (and perhaps continue to be) persecuted so mercilessly, Europe-wide?

Simplistic history is that the jews had money and influence due to their tendencies as successful businessmen. Royalty and The Church (the two powerful institutions of the time) objected to others having this. There were ongoing disputes and power-struggles between church and crown. Huge amounts were spent on wars and crusades. At the time 'The Jews' were not militarily disposed and to backfill the coffers the story was put about that Jews killed 'The Christ' (Christ is actually a title and not a name) and were therefore damned sinners and all their money should be forfeit either to the crown or the church (depending on the state in question). Some of the mud still sticks.

Aaron747 · Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:48 pm

Quoting EDKA (Reply 31):
If you were a Jew back in the beginning of century and you had a chance to get your family out of Eastern Europe, you did it. It almost didn't matter where...

Yes, and I most certainly would not have done it by taking actions that would affect others in ways that had just threatened me and my community. What could be more selfish?

Quoting EDKA (Reply 31):
Once Arabs realised the numbers of immigrants, they have banned sale of the land to Jews.

Imagine that!

Quoting EDKA (Reply 31):
As I said before, while the conflict has developed over the years into extremely complex problem, its not that difficult to trace it back - if anyone wants to really understand the root of the problem.

That is a noble venture - but the full story must be told, not only the part that paints Zionism in the noble light that Christians seem to froth at the mouth over. It is amazing to me how there is far more spirited debate about this within the Jewish diaspora than Christians who take the "promised land" talk hook line and sinker.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 33):
Does anyone really see a way out of this?

Hope is the only thing left. An excellent piece by grossman a few weeks ago:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...e/israel-peace-conference/1.601993

The government of Israel, the governments of Israel, act like prisoners of despair. Like its helpless victims. I do not remember ever hearing any serious statement about hope from Benjamin Netanyahu, or from any of his ministers and advisers. Not even one word of a vision of the possibilities a life of peace could offer, or about the chance that Israel could become part of a new fabric of alliances and interests in the Middle East. How did even the word itself, “hope”, become a dirty, incriminating word, second only to the word “peace” in its dangerous levels of radiation?

seb146 · Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:46 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 30):
It really is the precipitating event.

Some have suggested the tipping point was the murder of three Israeli children. But no one talks about the two Palestinians who were murdered just days before that....

Quoting JJJ (Reply 16):
If Israel had just annexed the West Bank and Gaza and given citizenship to their residents the situation would be totally different.

I suspect it would be like the Blacks here in the States after the Civil War. Whites going around saying "you all are not slaves anymore, why are you so uppity?"

Revelation · Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:46 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 33):
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why.

I think I'd chose a different expression...

Quoting seb146 (Reply 39):
But no one talks about the two Palestinians who were murdered just days before that....

Because Hamas never said they decided to fire rockets at Israel because of that incident.

JJJ · Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:41 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 39):
Whites going around saying "you all are not slaves anymore, why are you so uppity?"

Palestinians wished they were just harassed and beaten up and sometimes killed if that meant a significant number of them could vote in Israeli elections.

Quoting EDKA (Reply 36):
The way i see it, one possible way would be for Palestinians to accept Camp David terms and denouce all terrorist activities against Israel

It takes two to tango. So far no one has bothered to show up.

At the current level of mistrust it would take the US to bring out the stick against Israel for them to consider talking to the Palestinians. And everyone knows that's just not going to happen.

edka · Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:05 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 38):
Yes, and I most certainly would not have done it by taking actions that would affect others in ways that had just threatened me and my community. What could be more selfish?

Luckily, you dont need to make this choice today. Many people and families back them did not have such luxury. Besides, as far as they knew, they were not threatening the local communities.

From the 1880s to the 1930s, most Jewish land purchases were made in the coastal plain, the Jezreel Valley, the Jordan Valley and to a lesser extent the Galilee.[8] This was due to a preference for land that was cheap and without tenants.[8] There were two main reasons why these areas were sparsely populated. The first reason being when the Ottoman power in the rural areas began to diminish in the seventeenth century, many people moved to more centralized areas to secure protection against the lawless Bedouin tribes.[8] The second reason for the sparsely populated areas of the coastal plains was the soil type. The soil, covered in a layer of sand, made it impossible to grow the staple crop of Palestine, corn.[8] As a result this area remained uncultivated and under populated.[4] "The sparse Arab population in the areas where the Jews usually bought their land enabled the Jews to carry out their purchase without engendering a massive displacement and eviction of Arab tenants

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine

Quoting JJJ (Reply 41):
It takes two to tango. So far no one has bothered to show up.

At the current level of mistrust it would take the US to bring out the stick against Israel for them to consider talking to the Palestinians. And everyone knows that's just not going to happen.

I am all for US pushing Israel to talk to Palestinians, including Hamas, as long as they disarm. The truth is that since PLO inception, the Palestinians have proved that they are not capable in governing themselves in any cohesive manner. Even back when Arafat was negotiating with Rabin, Hamas tried everything to derail the process.

Israeli public opinion has changed to negative after failure of Camp David and second intifada, which Abbas has admitted since was a mistake (along many others)...

So i think its up to Palestinian to prove that they are capable of having their state...If they do that, the pressure will be on Israel.

damirc · Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:50 pm

Quoting EDKA (Reply 42):
Even back when Arafat was negotiating with Rabin, Hamas tried everything to derail the process.

And even today, while Fatah tries to work constructively they have to deal with this ...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac..._source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Since no other avenue was available to take the land for a road towards an illegal settlement ... the land was expropriated for military use (ie: settlers). Abuse of power much?

D.

Aaron747 · Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:10 am

Quoting damirc (Reply 43):
Since no other avenue was available to take the land for a road towards an illegal settlement ... the
land was expropriated for military use (ie: settlers). Abuse of power much?

A completely BS policy. Bibi has an unspeakably poor record on the settlement issue, and this is just one of many examples.

Oh, where art thou, Ehud Barak?

TheCommodore · Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:22 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 39):

Some have suggested the tipping point was the murder of three Israeli children.

Yes, I think you may be right.

The funerals for the 3, were broadcast on live TV. An extraordinary media circus followed every move.

Speeches by the President and Bibi.... something like a state funeral, and all done to cement world support for Israel and condemnation for Gaza.

And I'm still waiting to see the irrefutable "proof" Israel says they have in connection with the murders of the 3. Guess I'l be waiting for a long time, guess we all will.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 39):
But no one talks about the two Palestinians who were murdered just days before that....

No, no one !

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 44):
A completely BS policy. Bibi has an unspeakably poor record on the settlement issue, and this is just one of many examples.

Yeah... and here are some more !

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/0...-30-years-for-a-Palestinian-State#

seb146 · Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:41 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 40):
Because Hamas never said they decided to fire rockets at Israel because of that incident.

*smh*

I see two different groups in Gaza:

1) People p*ssed off that kids are being murdered by Israelis for, in their opinion, no good reason.
2) People p*ssed off that Israel is not wiped off the map.

Could it be that *some* people are saying "fire that rocket in honor of my dead children!!"?

teme82 · Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:02 am

Oh well... Israel pulled it troops out of Gaza and there was some time peace in there. But now there is rockets flying out of Gaza to Israel. Wonder how long Israel will stand idle and let the Iron Dome work. I bet they retaliate before the midnight.

bennett123 · Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:03 am

I have never understood this "Christ Killer" nonsense.

Luke 23:34 says quite clearly, "Forgive them Father, they don't know what they are doing"..

If Jesus Christ, (the Son of God) forgave those who killed him, it is hard to see how anyone claiming to be a Christian can simply ignore that instruction.

How any Christian can place his/her views above that of Jesus Christ is beyond me.

Revelation · Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:19 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 46):
I see two different groups in Gaza:

1) People p*ssed off that kids are being murdered by Israelis for, in their opinion, no good reason.
2) People p*ssed off that Israel is not wiped off the map.

I see a group that is making their daily bread by being warriors, and I see a smaller but much wealthier group making bundles smuggling goods into Gaza. Both of these benefit from prolonged conflict.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 46):
Could it be that *some* people are saying "fire that rocket in honor of my dead children!!"?

Could be, but seemingly not enough to call it the main cause of the rocket attacks.

Quoting teme82 (Reply 47):
But now there is rockets flying out of Gaza to Israel. Wonder how long Israel will stand idle and let the Iron Dome work. I bet they retaliate before the midnight.

You were correct and of course it should be a surprise to no one. If I were to be heaving objects into my neighbor's yard, it'd be no big surprise if my neighbor came over and kicked my ass.

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