penguins
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Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:40 pm

It looks like 1,000s of Russian troops have crossed the border into Ukraine.
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/...russian-forces-20140828-story.html
If it is true, I am sick of these despicable actions to bring back the USSR to Mother Russia, but I don't think the Ukrainian side of the news is completely unbiased. We will see what happens. If the invasion is true, I would like to see the defense of it from our pro-Russian members.
 
windy95
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:59 pm

Russian troops have been there for months and supplying arms since the beginning. They are using the same excuse the the Nazis did in doing this yet the rest of Europe just sits and watches.
 
penguins
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:27 pm

 
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Tugger
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:36 pm

I like Canada's "helpful" map posted on Twitter:


 

Tugg
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penguins
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:46 pm

Surprising that none of our "pro-Russian" members have voiced their sympathies yet. Is Russia still not involved in Ukraine?
 
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pylon101
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:02 pm

Yawn... Kiev announces invasion every day. It is not even funny.

NATO "hard-working" professionals screwed up everything. Again.
They published "evidence" without even caring of removing RF Army base position in Rostov region.

Look here. It's beyond any ...anything:
http://www.businessinsider.com/nato-...-russia-lying-about-ukraine-2014-8
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
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pylon101
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:36 pm

Being in Vatican, you should see deeper; digging in depth.
I posted there in the parallel thread.
The issue of reserve currency is more important for the Euro-American financial elites than anything else.
The rest is just infrastructure of elites' social and political engineering.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:01 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 16):
The issue of reserve currency is more important for the Euro-American financial elites than anything else.

You only get the status as "reserve currency" if you are big enough and the rest of the world trusts you enough (they don't have to trust completely but it is important). The USA for all it's imperfections has a market that mostly controls itself. In fact that is often an issue for many, the market/business controls the government too much for some (in truth they have about equal power).

It is hugely helpful to an economy though. If only Russia would reform and work towards such a system (market economy versus state driven economy).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:49 pm



Putin is clearly getting more unhinged by the day. Russia has absolutely nothing to gain from his increasing meddling in international affairs.

We live in interesting times . . .
 
PHX787
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:29 pm

Getting kinda sick of Russia and China constricting the UN from doing it's job.


Maybe a new international group that has one requirement- "You must be a democracy to be a member"
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aloges
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
Maybe a new international group that has one requirement- "You must be a democracy to be a member"

Have you heard of the EU?

Democratic decisions always take time, time which an autocrat like Putin doesn't need as long as he enjoys public support. That is why the chickenhawks are screaming "Inefficient!" when it comes to the response of the EU to the Russian invasion.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Acheron
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:55 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 1):
Russian troops have been there for months and supplying arms since the beginning. They are using the same excuse the the Nazis did in doing this yet the rest of Europe just sits and watches.
Quoting Tugger (Reply 3):
I like Canada's "helpful" map posted on Twitter:

Don't worry, the US still holds the world record of invasions under dodgy reasons.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):

Maybe a new international group that has one requirement- "You must be a democracy to be a member"

And whose definition of democracy is that?.

The american one, which are best buddies with countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar, and had no problem supporting things like the Apartheid or brutal dictatorships in Latin America that make the Castros' blush?.

Get real.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:02 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 11):
Don't worry, the US still holds the world record of invasions under dodgy reasons.

Are you sure? Unless you are only talking the last ten years or so. However I will ask how many of those are still under US control or have been annexed? Curious minds want to know....

Sure the USA has influenced things with "big stick diplomacy" but then so have most nations over their history (Spain included).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Acheron
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:08 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 12):
Are you sure? Unless you are only talking the last ten years or so. However I will ask how many of those are still under US control or have been annexed? Curious minds want to know....

Sure the USA has influenced things with "big stick diplomacy" but then so have most nations over their history (Spain included).

Monroe Doctrine along with Roosevelt's Corollary with all it's consequences are as close you get with anexation without actually being it, plus filing the entire continent with puppet governments whose sole goal was to further any and all american interests.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:22 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 13):
Monroe Doctrine along with Roosevelt's Corollary with all it's consequences are as close you get with anexation without actually being it, plus filing the entire continent with puppet governments whose sole goal was to further any and all american interests.

And what was Spain's policy during it's "power projection" phase?

Again, how many of those countries are "puppets" currently?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Acheron
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:30 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 14):
And what was Spain's policy during it's "power projection" phase?

The key difference is that Spain nowadays can barely sustain itself. On the other hand, the US still plays the game, but more covertly since it is bad PR to whine about Human Rights abuses while at the same time proping up regimes not exactly now for being democratic...

Quoting Tugger (Reply 14):
Again, how many of those countries are "puppets" currently?

Fortunately not that many, but not for a lack of trying...



[Edited 2014-08-28 16:32:33]
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:20 am

Guise, they obviously crossed the border on accident! Duh

This is just Russia responding to the US' ploy to get them involved because um NATO/WW3/Oil/Syria

These troops don't even exist obviously

IDK, I'm running out of piss poor Russian excuses. My country has had a fair share of blunders and has fed the world BS in some past instances but now it's Russia's turn. Hopefully they can look back in 5 or 10 years and wonder how on earth they believed such silliness. It's constantly "no, we weren't doing this" then it eventually gets proved and then they go on to another excuse.

I hope for everyone's sake (even Russia's) this conflict ends soon
 
Pyrex
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:21 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 1):
Russian troops have been there for months and supplying arms since the beginning. They are using the same excuse the the Nazis did in doing this yet the rest of Europe just sits and watches.

Would not be the first time the Germans and the Russians got together to fuck over Eastern Europe (the Polish should know).

Quoting aloges (Reply 10):
Have you heard of the EU?

And the EU has been effective at foreign and security policy exactly how?

Quoting aloges (Reply 10):
That is why the chickenhawks are screaming "Inefficient!" when it comes to the response of the EU to the Russian invasion.

So, pray tell, when would be an appropriate time to make a careful, well-reasoned decision? When Putin is parading down a boulevard in Kiev? When Russia is using an amphibious assault vehicle supplied by France to land in Odessa?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 15):
Fortunately not that many, but not for a lack of trying...

Yeah, look at those "puppets" in Chile and Colombia and how poorly they are doing... much better to be a proud independent country (*ahem* under Cuban control *ahem*) like Venezuela and perennially-bankrupt Argentina, right?

The fact is that after World War II and losing hundreds of thousands of its own people, the U.S. would have been completely justified in making Germany and Japan its bitch. Take away anything that was not nailed down to the ground and level the rest. Instead, they not only let those two countries run their own affairs soon after surrendering but actually gave them money to help them rebuild. No other country in the history of the world has ever done such a thing.
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Acheron
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:53 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 17):

Yeah, look at those "puppets" in Chile and Colombia and how poorly they are doing... much better to be a proud independent country (*ahem* under Cuban control *ahem*) like Venezuela and perennially-bankrupt Argentina, right?

You should avoid talking of things you know little of, really, it's sad.

On the other hand, you are the type to sell it's own mother bones if that would allow your favorite company to turn a profit and then call it "progress".

[Edited 2014-08-28 19:54:25]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:19 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
Guise, they obviously crossed the border on accident! Duh

You know the quote about the most dangerous man on earth: A 2nd lieutenant with a map.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
PHX787
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:03 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 10):
Have you heard of the EU?

The USA, Australia, and New Zealand cannot join the EU  
Quoting Acheron (Reply 11):
And whose definition of democracy is that?.

Well, let's look at yours and see if you think I support it or not.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 11):
The american one, which are best buddies with countries like Saudi Arabia and Qatar, and had no problem supporting things like the Apartheid or brutal dictatorships in Latin America that make the Castros' blush?.

Do you think I'm happy about this, as an American? I'm part of the libertarian camp who want our asses out of the middle east, and to stop funding countries that hate America and burn our Flag.

Basically, membership in my proposed "union" would be limited to those nations with a democracy index at a certain, previously- agreed - upon level or higher. No exceptions.
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Pyrex
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:04 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 18):
You should avoid talking of things you know little of, really, it's sad.

Yeah, it's not like I spend ~30% of my time working with different Latin American economies or have been going there 3-4 times a year for the past 5 years. I clearly know nothing about Latin America, and Venezuela clearly is not a failed economy...

Quoting Acheron (Reply 18):
On the other hand, you are the type to sell it's own mother bones if that would allow your favorite company to turn a profit and then call it "progress".

And in Chile you have a lot more economic freedom AND political freedom than anywhere else in Latin America. What about that, it appears the two go hand in hand...
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Acheron
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:22 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):
Basically, membership in my proposed "union" would be limited to those nations with a democracy index at a certain, previously- agreed - upon level or higher. No exc

I bet it looks nice on paper...just like the UN did at some point. In the end, it WILL be used to boost some country's particular agenda.

Also, it's kind ironic and contradictory: "We love democracy so much we are going to create quite an undemocratic organization"

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 21):
Yeah, it's not like I spend ~30% of my time working with different Latin American economies or have been going there 3-4 times a year for the past 5 years. I clearly know nothing about Latin America, and Venezuela clearly is not a failed economy...

Because all there is to a country it's a macro-economic index, right?.
Coca-Cola bottlers killing Union Workers as a sign of progress... now that's something...

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 21):
And in Chile you have a lot more economic freedom AND political freedom than anywhere else in Latin America. What about that, it appears the two go hand in hand...

They do?. Well, I guess it's true as long you are not a lefty, indigenous or poor.

Then again, you do seem to hate at least 2 of those three things, so it shouldn't be surprising you find it all A-Ok.

At the end of the day, it seems ultracapitalists such as yourself are as deluded as any communist.

[Edited 2014-08-28 21:23:13]
 
Pyrex
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:38 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 22):

Because all there is to a country it's a macro-economic index, right?.

No, there are multiple ways to measure levels of development in a country.

Economic freedom - http://www.heritage.org/index/
Corruption - http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/
Competitiveness - http://www3.weforum.org/docs/GCR2013-14/GCR_Rankings_2013-14.pdf
Human development - http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/table...velopment-index-and-its-components
Environmental performance - http://epi.yale.edu/epi/country-rankings
Prosperity - http://www.prosperity.com/#!/?aspxerrorpath=%2Fdefault.aspx
Ease of doing business - http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings

And what do you know? Chile is consistently on the top or very near to the top of every list compared to all other Latin American countries (sometimes even on an absolute basis).

But this thread is about Russian aggression, not about your flimsy moral relativism.
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tu204
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:31 am

So this is the what...42nd time Ukraine claims a Russian invasion? And all they have to show as far as proof goes is 10 Russian soldiers armed with standard patrol gear? Like the kind of gear you would carry on a one day mission? Like a patrol mission?

Maybe Russia should scream "invasion" every time that Ukrainans accidently crossed the border in the last 6 months. And I am not reffering about the couple hundred soldiers that fled for their lives into Russia with Russia's permission and were afterawrds released.

Why don't we start a thread each time that Ukraine screams "invasion" here? Every 4th post on A.net would be about a Russian invasion then. 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:34 am

I honestly think this will be an isolated incident, like the Russia/Georgia war in 2008.

But I'll play along. Looking down the road, when should we see Bear bombers over the Rockies and B-52s over the Urals?
When wasn't America great?


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TWA772LR
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:39 am

This clip will be the worlds response.
http://youtu.be/5TEvacFETvM
Just replace Kim Jong I'll with Mr. Putin and you get the point.

[Edited 2014-08-28 22:40:09]

[Edited 2014-08-28 22:47:04]
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
tu204
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:51 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 25):
But I'll play along. Looking down the road, when should we see Bear bombers over the Rockies and B-52s over the Urals?

So will I 

I don't think we will ever see TU95's over the rockies of B52's over the Urals. Neither would get that far.
In your hypothetical scenario we would probably see several rapidly falling contrails followed by a statement like "Oh sh..."  
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
PanHAM
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:03 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 17):
Would not be the first time the Germans and the Russians got together to fuck over Eastern Europe (the Polish should know).

could happen if the left wing Nazis called "LINKE" now (formerly SED) but there is only a remote chance for that.

German policy for the past 65 years is strictly following the democratic path, embefdded in the western alliance and NATO as well as the European union. Reardless of which party was at the helm in the past 65 years, each made sure that never again a criminal gang can capture this country.

I stay friendly and not further comment your above line.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:14 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 17):
Instead, they not only let those two countries run their own affairs soon after surrendering but actually gave them money to help them rebuild. No other country in the history of the world has ever done such a thing.

That was then, this is now, what have they done for Iraq and Afghanistan, they haven't done any rebuilding, only deconstruction.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:04 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 24):
Why don't we start a thread each time that Ukraine screams "invasion" here? Every 4th post on A.net would be about a Russian invasion then.

Well, Russia did invade Ukraine, they even claim that the Crimea is now part of Russia (which it isn´t). So we already know who the aggressor is. Ukraine should finally ratify the ICC statue and since crimes have been committed on Ukrainian Territory, formally start going after the Russian Government as what they are: powerful criminals, but still just criminals.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
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teme82
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:08 am

Quoting penguins (Reply 2):
It looks like it won't stop with Ukraine.
http://yle.fi/uutiset/third_russian_...rspace_violation_in_a_week/7438235

FAF's F-18's are on hot standby and loaded with live weapons in order to drive them away.
Flying high and low
 
tu204
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:27 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 30):

What a funny view. Crimeans think a bit differently though regarding what country they are part of.  
Good luck to Ukraine on going after Russian assets. They should be glad Russia doesn't go after them for having to spend several billions in funds to just bring their infrastructure up to par with the rest of Russia. 

So Russians are criminals? Interesting point of view as well. Could you please clarify then on who you consider the Ukranian government to be. You can start with how they came to power and finish with shelling civilians in Eastern Ukraine.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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scbriml
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:41 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 32):

Vlad? Is that you?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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tommy1808
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:48 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 32):
Crimeans think a bit differently though regarding what country they are part of.

There where not asked, they where just occupied.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 32):
So Russians are criminals?

If you wage aggressive warfare, you are a criminal and the Nürnberg trail are the right pointer about how such criminals should be dealt with. And yes, that includes non-russians as well.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 32):
You can start with how they came to power and finish with shelling civilians in Eastern Ukraine.

They are not shelling civilians, the criminals hold civilians hostage in a war zone.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 32):
Good luck to Ukraine on going after Russian assets

I think transferring the Iran sanctions regime onto Russia would be a good start.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
Pyrex
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:55 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 29):
That was then, this is now, what have they done for Iraq and Afghanistan, they haven't done any rebuilding, only deconstruction.

Clearly you haven't been paying attention. Just because Iraqis and Afghans prefer to blow themselves to pieces instead of actually building a country doesn't mean the U.S. is not involved in nation-building.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 28):
could happen if the left wing Nazis called "LINKE" now (formerly SED) but there is only a remote chance for that.

German policy for the past 65 years is strictly following the democratic path, embefdded in the western alliance and NATO as well as the European union. Reardless of which party was at the helm in the past 65 years, each made sure that never again a criminal gang can capture this country.

Didn't mean to suggest Germany is going to roll into Lviv with some Panzers, but acting by omission (keep pretending the Russians are a rational party that can be trusted in any negotiation because you want their gas instead of leading the EU in facing the threat) is almost as bad. And I don't think LINKE would be the only party up for that - if I recall correctly your former chancellor (up until a decade or so ago) is now Vladimir Putin's little European bitch.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:30 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 29):
That was then, this is now, what have they done for Iraq and Afghanistan, they haven't done any rebuilding, only deconstruction.

That's because we are dealing with uneducated idiots for the most part who are more concerned with their religious beliefs than bettering their lives. Their religious beliefs are the major fault in why Iraq and Afganistan (and every other country over there) is in the position its in.

Japan and Germany admitted defeat and pulled themselves up with some help and are now better off than ever. It could happen in Iraq if their dumb idiotic religion weren't their major motivation. They'd rather kill each other than live comfortably.
 
GIANCAVIA
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:32 pm

I can see Syrian "Antonov" Cargo planes doing aid drops into Russia in a few years time when their economy has been wiped out completely due to a psychotic midgets ego trip. So Ironic, enjoy the bags of rice.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:34 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 34):
There where not asked, they where just occupied.

They were asked in 1991, they chose leave the Ukrainian SSR

They were asked again in 1994, where they chose autonomy and to distance themselves from Ukraine

They were asked again this year, when they chose to leave Ukraine.

After many years of trying, they are now finally free of Ukraine.

I don't get how people can't understand that the vast majority of Crimeans do not want to be Ukrainian.
 
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zkojq
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:04 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):

Guise, they obviously crossed the border on accident! Duh

   This made my day. Thanks DeltaMD90.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 32):
Could you please clarify then on who you consider the Ukranian government to be.

Well, the armed men supplied and supported by the Ukrainian government haven't shot down a commercial airliner, killing hundreds of innocent civilians. So there's that.
First to fly the 787-9
 
tommy1808
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:11 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 38):
They were asked in 1991, they chose leave the Ukrainian SSR
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 38):
I don't get how people can't understand that the vast majority of Crimeans do not want to be Ukrainian.

wooping 37% of the electorate, i hardly call that a vast majority.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 38):

They were asked again in 1994, where they chose autonomy and to distance themselves from Ukraine

38,5% chose to support a pro-independence candidate. I am not impressed.



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 38):
They were asked again this year, when they chose to leave Ukraine

And Saddam Hussein was elected President of Iraq....

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
tu204
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RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:14 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 34):
There where not asked, they where just occupied.

Ummm...I guessed you missed something. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 34):
They are not shelling civilians, the criminals hold civilians hostage in a war zone.

Partially correct statement actually.
They are as a matter of fact shelling criminals, I am not going to debate this point as the rebels are criminals according to Ukranian law.
But you fail to mention the fact that these criminals are local civilians that wanted nothing to do with the other criminal's agenda when they staged a coup in February.
So to sum it up we have two sets of criminals shooting each other.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 34):
I think transferring the Iran sanctions regime onto Russia would be a good start.

I guess you stacked up on firewood then? 

Fortunately for you and other Germans your government is not as short sighted.

I'll also add here that I'm fairly confident that in 5 years when we get a clearer picture of what happened now and more facts become known many people will feel a little foolish here for making so many hatefilled ridiculous claims.
Remember Georgia in 2008? All the talk of Russian invasion and almost demands to bomb Russia and what happened in the end when facts were known? That's right, that Georgia started that conflict. I don't remember any apologies though from posters here that were the loudest back then.

Also now maybe west wants to thank Russia and Putin personally for stopping the west's own irrisponsible actions in Syria just a few years back? You can clearly see what happened, and that was with Russia stepping up and stopping any suicidal invasion. Imagine what we would have today if that actually happened.
On behalf of Russians, you are welcome  
Quoting zkojq (Reply 39):
Well, the armed men supplied and supported by the Ukrainian government haven't shot down a commercial airliner, killing hundreds of innocent civilians. So there's that.

Are you sure?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 33):
Vlad? Is that you?

Couldn't think of anything smarter so say Big grin ?

[Edited 2014-08-29 07:15:56]
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Acheron
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:26 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 23):
And what do you know? Chile is consistently on the top or very near to the top of every list compared to all other Latin American countries (sometimes even on an absolute basis).

Like I said, Indexes are numbers are fine and dandy for people like you. Doesn't mean much in real life most of the time.

Then again, using Transparency as a source, an organization that labels money laundry countries like The Bahamas as "clean"...yeah...

On the other hand, in the HDI, Cuba seems to be pretty close to your mighty Chile. Or "cuban controlled"(LOL) Venezuela above Colombia...

Anyway, we should ask the Mapuches or the Students who can't afford College what they think of such indexes. Heck, maybe we could ask some of the victims of your buddy Pinochet, about justice, political freedoms and such...

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 23):
But this thread is about Russian aggression, not about your flimsy moral relativism.

I think the only one who seems to have any sort of flimsy morals here is you, at least when there is money involved.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 34):
There where not asked, they where just occupied.

But they did not seem to put much of a resistance, considering even some Ukranians even deserted and joined the Russian ranks.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 34):
If you wage aggressive warfare, you are a criminal and the Nürnberg trail are the right pointer about how such criminals should be dealt with. And yes, that includes non-russians as well.

With that criteria, then George Bush, Tony Blair and Aznar should have been sent to Nürnberg a long time ago...
Good luck with that.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 34):
They are not shelling civilians, the criminals hold civilians hostage in a war zone.

I guess you missed the videos of the Ukranian Air Force planes firing unguided rockets on civilians a few months ago...

Or how about that National Guard unit that shot up every civilian car on a road while they were retreating?.

Quoting armitageshanks (Reply 36):
Their religious beliefs are the major fault in why Iraq and Afganistan (and every other country over there) is in the position its in.

Amusingly, Religion is an issue in both countries thanks to the West.
The US medling in A-Stan in the 1980's and toppling Saddam in the early 2000's.

Heck, we should partly thank the british government and BP for the Ayatollah's in Iran.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12216
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:35 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 42):
But they did not seem to put much of a resistance, considering even some Ukranians even deserted and joined the Russian ranks.

considering that opposition seems to be a rather quick way to die that is not surprising

Quoting Acheron (Reply 42):
With that criteria, then George Bush, Tony Blair and Aznar should have been sent to Nürnberg a long time ago....

i´d be perfectly fine with that

Quoting Acheron (Reply 42):

I guess you missed the videos of the Ukranian Air Force planes firing unguided rockets on civilians a few months ago...

Yeah, i missed those videos of Ukranian Air Force firing unguided rockets with the sole purpose of just killing civilians.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
Acheron
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:45 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 43):
considering that opposition seems to be a rather quick way to die that is not surprising

If you are speaking of Easter Ukranians, you might be right. Like those 40 people burned to death by pro-Kievans in Odessa...

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 43):
i´d be perfectly fine with that

Well, good luck with that. Won't happen...
Heck, on this board ther are people who think those guys are great while at the same time hating Putin...

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 43):
Yeah, i missed those videos of Ukranian Air Force firing unguided rockets with the sole purpose of just killing civilians.

When you fire rockets into an area with barely any separatists...what else could happen?

Ukranian Armed forces shooting civilians up is not unheard of in this conflict...

[Edited 2014-08-29 07:45:56]
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12216
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:53 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 44):
When you fire rockets into an area with barely any separatists...what else could happen?

How do you know how many of the terrorists are among them, or what reason they had to designate that a target. Its not like the have such a vast airforce that they ran out of real targets...

Quoting Acheron (Reply 44):

Ukranian Armed forces shooting civilians up is not unheard of in this conflict...

Like in every conflict, it isn´t. I haven´t heard much about civilian casualties being excessive or the goal of attacks yet.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 44):
Well, good luck with that. Won't happen...

True, but still two wrongs don't make a right

Quoting Acheron (Reply 44):
Heck, on this board ther are people who think those guys are great while at the same time hating Putin...

There is hope that they just didn´t reflect enough on the situation yet.

best regards
Thomas
....the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero
 
Fiesta13
Posts: 256
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:28 pm

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:55 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 1):

Russian troops have been there for months and supplying arms since the beginning. They are using the same excuse the the Nazis did in doing this yet the rest of Europe just sits and watches.

And what would you have Europe do, besides trying to hurt Russia economically? You think setting off a general war in Easter Europe is the answer? Because that's what you'd have if Europe or the U.S. acted militarily, however tempting it might be to hit the Russians.

Secondly, they ARE a nuclear power. You don't go to war against a nut like Vlad who has nukes on a whim.

What would YOU do? Abject criticism is easy. What is YOUR solution?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
Getting kinda sick of Russia and China constricting the UN from doing it's job.

And the U.S. has never done that? Please. How many times have we used King Veto at the U.N. to block action against friends of ours? Israel for example. How many times over the years have we overthorwn legitimate governments to put in anti-communist strongmen in Latin America, Asia and the Middle East and then vetoed any resolution in the Security Council condemning the action. We've done this in Vietnam, Iran and Panama, to name a few.

I don't like the veto game, but let's not get one-sided here.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):
Basically, membership in my proposed "union" would be limited to those nations with a democracy index at a certain, previously- agreed - upon level or higher. No exceptions.

Nice in theory, but what would that accomplish? Would Russia suddenly do an about-face if there were such a group? I highly doubt it. There isn't much the U.S. can do militarily at this point, unless Russia decides to extend the conflict beyond Ukraine. Russia certainly didn't like our invasion of Iraq, as they lost a partner in selling their weapons to when that happened. Both sides are still imited by the existence of nukes.
 
Acheron
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:24 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 45):
Its not like the have such a vast airforce that they ran out of real targets...

But it's not like they have sort of real experience in this kind of conflict. Nor any intelligence aparatus that actually works.

Plus the fact that few of those running the show in Kiev have suggested they consider eastern ukranians "inferior", so I wouldn't put them past them to just shoot a place up regardless.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 45):
True, but still two wrongs don't make a right

No, but in the grand scheme of things, no one has a moral high ground of any sort. And any legal high ground is tenous at best...
 
GIANCAVIA
Posts: 906
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:45 am

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:38 pm

Quoting Fiesta13 (Reply 46):
And what would you have Europe do, besides trying to hurt Russia economically?

It's war, Everyone likes to play the bravado card but realistically this is what Europe will do, Along with other major parts of the world. Lets look at it 2 or 3 years down the line when Russia is on its knees financially because of Putin.. Sure It will probably take the Ukraine down with it but it already has damaged that country beyond repair now anyway.

Your everyday Russian citizen are not like the putin bots on the net who justify his every move, Now the families of Russian soldiers who's bodies are coming back are asking questions... the rest of the population will follow when they are deeply in recession because of the midgets ego.

It is no doubt more then Russia's fault this all started, The US and EU meddling again where it shouldn't but that cant justify invasion and occupation. Crimea was not a proper vote, You don't get a proper vote under armed occupation.. the same way that the Ukraine government was removed in an inappropriate way in the first place.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Russia Invades Ukraine

Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:08 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 25):
I honestly think this will be an isolated incident, like the Russia/Georgia war in 2008.

LOL. If you can name other "incidents", it isn't exactly isolated, is it?

Putin has made his goals perfectly clear, he desires the old USSR model. He has also stifled all dissent at home and changed laws to allow him to stay king forever. He has time.

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