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AeroWesty
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Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:30 pm

My car insurance just came up for renewal, and I just switched to a new service where you pay a low base rate, then you pay by the mile, based upon data a GPS-tracker that's hooked up to the car's computer port uploads every night.

The advantages to this I saw were:

• A base rate 60% lower than the lowest quote I'd received from any other insurance carrier;

• While I pay about 4¢ per mile as an add-on cost, it's capped at 150 miles per day, so if I take a long trip, I'm not paying out the wazoo for it;

• The GPS knows where my car is 24/7, so if it's stolen, they can give live reports to the police as to its location;

• It should contribute to lower ins. rates as location-scammers (saying the car is garaged in a lower rate zone, when it isn't), are immediately exposed.

Since I'm not a high-mileage driver, it all made sense. I have to say I started looking around when I noticed that my old ins. carrier (e-surance) had quietly dropped one of my discounts, and slid in a much higher rental car reimbursement premium (apparently, they thought I'd appreciate a luxury rental for $46 per six months rather than a basic rental for $10 per six months, without even so much as asking me about it).

It dawned on me that someone was paying for Flo, The General, GEICO, etc. to be on TV 24/7.

Other than having my movements being recorded (which I'm not all that arsed about), I couldn't see much of a downside to going this route, especially for the $ savings.

Is this the future of car insurance? If offered to you, would you consider buying it?
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Aesma
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:46 pm

I drive mostly short distances, and even less so when I first got a car I insured myself (as opposed to using one of my parents' cars), so I looked into it.

The GPS thing was a deal breaker, the idea of being tracked everywhere, no thanks.

Furthermore, it wasn't even worth it, only about 10% less than my normal insurance, and I had to pay to install the GPS, would have taken several years to recoup that "investment".
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Pyrex
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:52 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
If offered to you, would you consider buying it?

Not only would I consider it, but I am actually asking you what the auto insurance carrier you are talking about is. I am thinking about buying a car that I don't need (but want) that would basically sit around the whole week just for me to take it out on weekends sometimes. The whole problem with that is, since I currently do not have auto insurance (since I don't have a car...) or a U.S. driver's license (am in the process of converting my Portuguese one, but going to the DMV is such a pain...) the insurance quotes I am getting are absolutely ridiculous, for a car that would be parked most of the time. This factor is seriously making me reconsider whether to buy the car I don't need or not.

That said:

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
Is this the future of car insurance?

I hope not. Once I have an established driving record I would not want to give them all that information, particularly if I was using the car more often,

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
It dawned on me that someone was paying for Flo, The General, GEICO, etc. to be on TV 24/7.

As annoying as those ads can get (especially Flo - GEICO ones tend to be more interesting), despite all the money they spend on advertising (in the billions of dollars per year) the insurance carriers that focus on the direct channel (i.e., Progressive, GEICO, eSurance) actually have significantly lower expense ratios than the more traditional ones. Insurance agents (which those guys bypass) is where most of the cost is.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:01 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
I had to pay to install the GPS

Interesting, my GPs unit was free, and came within 2 days via UPS. It was a quick self-install once I located the computer port beneath the dashboard.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 2):
Not only would I consider it, but I am actually asking you what the auto insurance carrier you are talking about is.

metromile.com

It's currently available in CA, OR, WA and IL.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 2):
Once I have an established driving record I would not want to give them all that information, particularly if I was using the car more often

I figure my break-even point is around 15K miles per year. If I were to drive more than that, based upon my initial rate, it'd be smarter to go with traditional insurance.
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Pyrex
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:13 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
metromile.com

It's currently available in CA, OR, WA and IL.

Thanks. Just took a look. Auto insurance innovations usually take time to reach NJ, so it will probably be a while before it makes it here. More importantly, though, those guys seem to act as brokers, with the policies underwritten by National General, a company that can be most kindly described by anyone that works in the insurance space (such as myself) as "shady as hell". That said, if the savings were substantial versus any other alternative I would consider it.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:35 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 4):
National General, a company that can be most kindly described by anyone that works in the insurance space (such as myself) as "shady as hell".

Yeah, I noticed that when doing my own due diligence on them, but Oregon has a pretty reliable insurance commission, which doesn't take much funny business from insurers, so I'm just going to hope I never need to use the policy, and if I do, that the state will stand behind me.

I had been very happy with e-surance, they even covered what turned into a $200 in-city tow without batting an eye when those are supposed to be capped at $75. It was what I considered funny business with my rate creeping up which caused me to look elsewhere.

I'm hoping that someday in the future I don't regret the decision by having let greed direct my decision-making process.
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Pyrex
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:16 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
Yeah, I noticed that when doing my own due diligence on them,

Just out of curiosity, why are you saying that? Complaints about their claims-handling practices (which I cannot comment on) or did you take a look at their SEC filings, and those of their affiliated insurers (AmTrust and Maiden Holdings)?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
I'm hoping that someday in the future I don't regret the decision by having let greed direct my decision-making process.

The main problem about the sites that promise huge discounts (and I guess your previous insurer is one of them, so not sure what would change) is that more often than not they will guide you towards policies that are written at the state minimum levels, so they will look cheap on a headline basis. The problem is that, in most states, and for most people, those minimum coverage levels are woefully inadequate given the litigious nature of U.S. society, so if you get into a serious accident the insurer will just write you a check for the policy limit and cut you loose to deal with the additional liability by yourself. You should consider whether it makes sense to complement your auto / homeowner's coverage with an umbrella liability policy to protect your net worth.
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LAXintl
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:28 pm

Yes,

I long held the opinion that charges that are based on actual use, such as insurance based on actual miles driven is an incredibly fair method to determine pricing.
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tommy1808
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:33 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):

• The GPS knows where my car is 24/7, so if it's stolen, they can give live reports to the police as to its location;

How is the GPS information used if you have an accident? Just on your behalf or, if possible (e.g. you have been driving above speed limit) also against you?

Best regards
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AeroWesty
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:42 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 6):

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
Yeah, I noticed that when doing my own due diligence on them,

Just out of curiosity, why are you saying that?

I usually look at consumer review sites before making a purchase, and GMAC (apparently the parent company), has a very poor customer service rating. Integon is the listed underwriter for my policy. This is one of the sites I looked at, pulled from my browser history:

http://www.autoinsurance.org/companies/integon-auto-insurance-review/

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 8):
How is the GPS information used if you have an accident?

That's a good question. The company can apparently tell when a trip started and when it stopped, plus the route I took. The policy is 43 pages long, which I've not fully reviewed yet, but I plan on going over its finer points to see if there's any kind of detail regarding what active data they capture. I did read that the GPS monitor data wasn't supposed to be used for rating purposes.

Unfortunately, the way their website is setup, I just get black pages when trying to print anything out to PDF about my policy on a Mac. I'm going to drop by the library to see if I can get it to save to a PC in PDF, then store it on a USB stick.
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Pyrex
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:59 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 9):
I usually look at consumer review sites before making a purchase, and GMAC (apparently the parent company), has a very poor customer service rating. Integon is the listed underwriter for my policy.

GMAC sold Integon a few years ago to National General (back in 2009).
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photopilot
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:03 pm

We have the same sort of system being offered by several companies here in Ontario. However this is what they monitor and how it could affect your rates. Note they charge the regular rates, then after monitoring they look at giving you a future discount on your next renewal/payment.
========================================================
The three factors related to the Ajusto program that influence your potential savings at renewal are:

1.Kilometres
You can save up to 10% on your auto insurance when your vehicle is driven less than 15,000 km a year. The device will record the number of kilometres your vehicle is driven per day, and you’ll receive personalized savings based on the annual result. The less you drive, the more you save!

2.Acceleration and braking
If you accelerate faster than 13 km/h or more in 1 second or decelerate 15 km/h or more in 1 second, the device will consider this sudden. Your vehicle’s result at the end of the year will determine how much you save—it could be up to 10%.

3.Time of day when your vehicle is driven
The risk of an accident is higher at some times of day than others. For example, night time is considered the riskiest time to drive because of fatigue and the reduced visibility. Below is the risk associated with different times of day. The less your vehicle is driven during high-risk periods, the more you save, up to a maximum of 5%.


=========================================================

My personal thoughts are that there is no way in hell that I'd consent to electronic monitoring of my driving, my location, what time of day I go anywhere, etc.
What really irks me however is that they are making the assumption that only distance driven, acceleration/braking or time of day are what affects safety and therefore your rates.
It doesn't address the idiot who tailgates, cuts back and forth from lane to lane trying to squeeze past traffic, those who drive to fast for the conditions such as rain or snow, whether the person has had a few drinks (not enough to be charged, but drinking none-the-less), how tired or alert they are, etc. None of that seems to matter to the insurance companies offering this. Of course it could also be because the GPS based systems can't monitor safety factors like that. And it doesn't even address things like driver's experience, training, etc.

Thanks, but no thanks.

[Edited 2014-09-14 14:04:15]
 
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GuitrThree
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:13 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 8):
How is the GPS information used if you have an accident? Just on your behalf or, if possible (e.g. you have been driving above speed limit) also against you?

EXACTLY the reason you should NEVER EVER use this system. I don't care what it saves you. You have an accident and you are speeding they can easily and legally say you were breaking the law and they won't cover crap. Samething if you have a blowout while speeding, or driving too fast in the rain. Even if you only speed a few miles over the limit on average, they can build a case that you are a habitual speeder. No thanks. Send that POS tracking device back today and get real insurance. Want proof? You get tagged speeding with a regular policy and your rates can rise. ONE TICKET. What do you think they can do with the evidence of each and every mile you've driven?

A 43 page policy? Are you serious? I have a business policy and it's only 3 pages. BUSINESS POLICY I USE FOR WORK!!!

Seriously, please don't take offense, but Westy I thought you were smarter than this.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:19 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 10):
GMAC sold Integon a few years ago to National General (back in 2009).

Okay, so I really suck at insurance due diligence, I can accept that.   I was motivated by greed and the uniqueness of this, LOL. (Regardless, I'm interested in what you're saying about the policy and the company behind it.)

Quoting photopilot (Reply 11):
My personal thoughts are that there is no way in hell that I'd consent to electronic monitoring of my driving, my location, what time of day I go anywhere, etc.

Ajusto sounds like some sort of Doctor Who alien, doesn't it?  

Doing some more reading in the FAQs, I can apparently turn the GPS tracking off, and they can still get my mileage from the car's onboard computer. I'm going to leave it on for now to see how the data streams into the website and app, then see if the black choppers start circling when I turn it off.

I do remember that this is supposed to be different from the Progressive Snapshot, which reads how I drive. This unit only tracks mileage driven and GPS location.

I'm feeling like quite the guinea pig here, but it's fascinating so far.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:21 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 12):
You have an accident and you are speeding they can easily and legally say you were breaking the law and they won't cover crap.

I don't believe that's true. Even if you break a law while in an accident, you're still covered. You may risk cancellation, but the ins. can't deny you coverage you've paid for.
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larshjort
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:34 pm

We have a similar system to photopilot described here in Denmark. It is aimed mostly at Young drivers, they can get GPS/Accelerometer box installed in the car which will be read in case of an accident, if they were going above the speed limit or were driving reckless you have to pay 3-4 times the deductible than if they had stayed within the speed limit. the upside is the Premium in many cases are more than halfed.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):

I don't believe that's true. Even if you break a law while in an accident, you're still covered. You may risk cancellation, but the ins. can't deny you coverage you've paid for.


If the coverage details you must obey the law in order for the Insurance to cover, they aren't likely to cover the accident if you drove 55 mph in a 50 zone.

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AeroWesty
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:45 pm

Quoting larshjort (Reply 15):
If the coverage details you must obey the law in order for the Insurance to cover, they aren't likely to cover the accident if you drove 55 mph in a 50 zone.

The government would slap a huge bad faith penalty against the insurance co. in that case. Were you driving drunk or allowing an unlicensed driver use your car? Yeah, I could see where a claim could be made that you didn't do what was necessary to mitigate damages. But that applies to any sort of car insurance policy.

20 years ago I destroyed the side of a brand new Coupe de Ville by "speeding" through a blind intersection (I didn't realize there was traffic coming towards me on the other side of parked trolly cars in downtown San Diego), and both cars were fully repaired.

Let's not stretch the imagination here.
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diverted
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:50 pm

No thanks;

I was offered it by my insurance company and declined. They were only willing to cut me a 10% discount initially which "could become more substantial based on driving habits."

I'm not trying to incriminate myself, but my driving habits are probably not going to cause my discount to get bigger. Not to mention my insurance company has no right knowing where/when/how much I drive.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:05 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
Other than having my movements being recorded (which I'm not all that arsed about), I couldn't see much of a downside to going this route, especially for the $ savings.

They have been marketing this in Canada also but one of my fears with it is that if it tracks for fast you accelerate and brake and where you go and how often. While the base premium is low they potentially can use all of the information available to assume you are higher risk and hike your premium.

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
Is this the future of car insurance?

Probably yes.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 11):
What really irks me however is that they are making the assumption that only distance driven, acceleration/braking or time of day are what affects safety and therefore your rates.

The acceleration braking thing is the deal breaker for me because there are times for both in day to day driving.

When I learned how to drive on the highway my instructor specifically said to floor the car when you are merging with the at speed traffic on the highway and nearly failed my full license test for not being aggressive enough.

In fact when it causes a good chunk of traffic slowdowns when someone gets on to a highway at 60 km/h (speed limit is 100 for Americans  ). That person would be seen as the safer driver and the people whom have to slow down suddenly because of them are considered worse.

Also hard braking is often associated with a sudden obstruction in front of the driver and if that avoids an accident then its good driving.


Quoting photopilot (Reply 11):
It doesn't address the idiot who tailgates, cuts back and forth from lane to lane trying to squeeze past traffic, those who drive to fast for the conditions such as rain or snow, whether the person has had a few drinks (not enough to be charged, but drinking none-the-less), how tired or alert they are, etc.

It doesn't address the distracted driver either.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:20 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 17):
I was offered it by my insurance company and declined. They were only willing to cut me a 10% discount initially which "could become more substantial based on driving habits."
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 18):
They have been marketing this in Canada also but one of my fears with it is that if it tracks for fast you accelerate and brake and where you go and how often.

I think there's some confusion here. This isn't like Progressive's 'Snapshot' driving style recorder, this is a GPS unit to track how many miles you drive so you can pay-by-the-mile on top of a low base rate. MUCH different.

To address some concerns brought up in other replies: While I was in the User Dashboard on MetroMile’s website to get the PDFs of my policy and declaration, there’s a little button to click to stop the device from transmitting live trip data. So as I thought, I could opt out of that function without causing my premiums to rise, as long as I haven’t interfered with the unit transmitting the number of miles driven every day.
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planewasted
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:31 pm

I would consider it. Another reason to burn fat on my bicycle instead of burning money on gas when going shorter distances.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:34 pm

Would I buy it? No. Should it be available? Sure.

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
• The GPS knows where my car is 24/7, so if it's stolen, they can give live reports to the police as to its location;

Presumably, they know how fast you're going and what parts of town you frequent. I wonder if your 43 page policy covers whether or not they can use that information to set your future rates.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 12):
A 43 page policy? Are you serious? I have a business policy and it's only 3 pages. BUSINESS POLICY I USE FOR WORK!!!

That is pretty darn ridiculous.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
I don't believe that's true. Even if you break a law while in an accident, you're still covered. You may risk cancellation, but the ins. can't deny you coverage you've paid for.

I suggest you read your policy and ensure that the insurance company has not set some actuarially sound limit on how fast you can be going before they refuse to pay.

What about leaving a bar or dinner? What if you have a wreck then? Will the insurance company presume you were drinking? What does your policy say about that?

Sorry. A pay by mile system is fraught with peril.
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casinterest
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:22 am

I don't think pay per mile is that good an idea. Especially since I have a long commute. What is more important than pay per mile is safe driving and accident avoidance.

Insurance already depreciates your car based on mileage when it comes time to pay out at an accident. Why give them a chance to make you pay twice for depreciation?
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AeroWesty
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:08 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
What about leaving a bar or dinner? What if you have a wreck then? Will the insurance company presume you were drinking? What does your policy say about that?

No different than any other insurance policy.

Let’s remember, an auto policy is a legal document affirming to the state and other drivers that you have the financial ability and backing to pay on a claim if you cause an accident. The ins. co. can’t cite frivolous terms to get out of paying. (Heck, what a way to make a mountain of money, issue insurance policies you intend to never pay out on.)

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 12):
A 43 page policy? Are you serious? I have a business policy and it's only 3 pages. BUSINESS POLICY I USE FOR WORK!!!

That is pretty darn ridiculous.

I dunno what's so ridiculous about it. 15 years ago my apartment lease was one page with printing on both sides. My last renewal was over 25 pages. That's how things are getting these days. What was I gonna do, ask them how many pages their policy was before signing up? I'm sure the online version of my e-surance policy was about the same.

"Oh, 43 pages, can't have that, I'll go somewhere else."   

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
A pay by mile system is fraught with peril.

What perils beyond a regular policy, especially since I can turn the tracker off?
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GuitrThree
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:33 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
I don't believe that's true. Even if you break a law while in an accident, you're still covered. You may risk cancellation, but the ins. can't deny you coverage you've paid for.

Not kidding you, go look it up. State Farm and All State (and countless others) have been known to go ahead and pay out the claim because the policy was written for them to do so, but they then turn around and sue their own client (customer) for damages for being negligent. My father was in the insurance business for most of his working life and he as story after story about companies doing this.
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ltbewr
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:48 am

I don't want my insurance company knowing every move I make, if I go 5 MPH over the limit, or take a long trip.

I do want insurance companies to properly charge for insurance. Too many may underestimate their daily/annual mileage, some may have long drives for work or on personal trips, have sudden changes up/down in mileage and should charge appropriately. So instead of a device to be used by the insurance company, one would have to report their mileage every 6 months and pay surcharges or lower rates adjusted for their actual mileage if below or above 'average' for the region.

Many government agencies and transportation companies are putting driver monitor and GPS systems on their vehicles to assure safe and proper use, max fuel mileage, make sure drivers are following Federal and State operation laws and for accident investigations.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:16 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 24):
State Farm and All State (and countless others) have been known to go ahead and pay out the claim because the policy was written for them to do so, but they then turn around and sue their own client (customer) for damages for being negligent
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 12):
You have an accident and you are speeding they can easily and legally say you were breaking the law and they won't cover crap.

Those are two completely different statements. In your first post you claimed that the ins. could just arbitrarily not cover you, even though they're legally obliged to.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 25):
I don't want my insurance company knowing every move I make, if I go 5 MPH over the limit, or take a long trip.

So if you could buy the insurance without the tracker being on (which you may do), and just having it report the number of miles you drove each day, would you view it differently?
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tommy1808
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:26 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 23):
Let’s remember, an auto policy is a legal document affirming to the state and other drivers that you have the financial ability and backing to pay on a claim if you cause an accident. The ins. co. can’t cite frivolous terms to get out of paying. (Heck, what a way to make a mountain of money, issue insurance policies you intend to never pay out on.)

I can not tell you the legal situation in the united states obviously, but here in Germany the insurance will cover the 3rd Party damage in any case, even if you drive a school bus through a city at 100mpf blindfolded and high on coke.
They will however take every penny of you to get the money back if they can build a case of you having been reckless.

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fr8mech
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:18 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 23):
What perils beyond a regular policy, especially since I can turn the tracker off?

If you turn the tracker off, I assume you lose any discount.

Can your vehicle's GPS records be subpoenaed?

Can they cancel or modify your policy based on your driving habits?

Can they cancel or modify your policy based on locations you frequent?

Who has access to the GPS record?

How long is it retained?

What privacy protections are you afforded regarding the retention and use of your GPS record?
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:42 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 27):
They will however take every penny of you to get the money back if they can build a case of you having been reckless.

Well sure, if you contribute to any sort of negligence, I'd expect the parties paying out to go after as many possible they can to share the costs.

What I'm not understanding is the somewhat mortal fear I'm reading in some of the replies as if someone's driving 5mph over the speed limit would suddenly cause their insurance not to pay out.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
If you turn the tracker off, I assume you lose any discount.

Nope. Again, it's a low base rate (about 60% less than a standard policy in my case), then I pay by the mile as I drive. If I were to drive a lot, I could actually end up paying more for car insurance, but as I said above, my break-even is about 15K miles per year. I didn't even drive half that last year, so my savings appear as if they could be substantial, all things considered.

Discounts worked into the base rate are for things like my education level, doing all the paperwork online, allowing a voice recording act as a digital signature, etc.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
Can your vehicle's GPS records be subpoenaed?

Probably, although you can opt out of the live tracking.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
Can they cancel or modify your policy based on your driving habits?

Again, this isn't like Progressive's Snapshot. It doesn't record things like how hard you drive. Just from where-to-where and when to record the mileage and locate the vehicle. If you don't want the tracker on, they'll just upload the mileage once a day.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
Can they cancel or modify your policy based on locations you frequent?

Only if I lie about where the car is garaged, as that's how they determine my base rate. Just like any other policy.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
Who has access to the GPS record?

Direct access? Just me and them.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
How long is it retained?

Good question. In the section regarding data retention, they state that when I turn live tracking off, they'll permanently delete tracking data off their servers "within a reasonable period of time". Otherwise, I'd assume the data is kept for as long as I have a policy as it feeds their app to help assess long-term MPG, etc.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28):
What privacy protections are you afforded regarding the retention and use of your GPS record?

They can share all non-public data they collect about me with whomever they choose to, unless I sign the opt-out notice, which I've already done and mailed in. That notice doesn't have to be resubmitted with each renewal, it's for the life of the policy.
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:49 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 29):
Nope. Again, it's a low base rate (about 60% less than a standard policy in my case), then I pay by the mile as I drive.

Well, maybe I missed something...what benefit would the live tracking feature provide?
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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AeroWesty
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:38 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 30):
Well, maybe I missed something...what benefit would the live tracking feature provide?

Funny that, they happen to have a page describing it all:

https://www.metromile.com/the-app

In addition, if your car is stolen, they can give live reports to the police, perhaps allowing for faster recovery and less damage.
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:04 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 31):
Funny that, they happen to have a page describing it all:

Ah, street sweeping alerts...that might make it worth it. I'm not being facetious...I learned to drive and spent my first 5 driving years in NY. Alternate side of the street parking is big...and a pain in the ass.

Actually, you can most of that information from any OBDII analyzer. I have one that I paid something like $60 for and I can leave plugged into the port and it will stream data to my phone...if for some reason I need that info.

As for a stolen car...what is the probability that your car will be stolen? Is it worth the loss of privacy? Do you really want to get your car back after some slime has had his way with it? I know the insurance company wants it back, but I hope that anyone who steals one of my cars screws up and runs it off a bridge somewhere.

I rarely leave anything in my car that can't be readily replaced.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 29):
Only if I lie about where the car is garaged, as that's how they determine my base rate. Just like any other policy.

Who cares about where it's garaged? What about places you frequent? What about your significant other's place? Work? What if some of those places have a high theft or vandalism rate? Does that affect your premium? Can it in the future?

I'm really not sure I'm willing to give up what little privacy I have left.

But, to some folks, it's not really an issue.

I will also suggest, that if you need an app to find your car...you probably shouldn't be driving.

[Edited 2014-09-15 14:05:56]
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:26 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
The GPS knows where my car is 24/7, so if it's stolen, they can give live reports to the police as to its location;

So, your car is stolen and in about 5 seconds the thief reaches down and pulls the plug out of the OBD port and voila, no data on where you car was located. Not much of a theft deterrent IMHO.
 
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:32 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
I'm not being facetious

Oh I realize. I'm taking everyone's questions as serious discussion. I've no idea if I made a good decision or not, which is why I put this question out there. What folks have posted has given me lots to think about.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
As for a stolen car...what is the probability that your car will be stolen? Is it worth the loss of privacy? Do you really want to get your car back after some slime has had his way with it?

I'll be honest, it's a late model domestic luxury car I bought used from a private party, which had obviously been babied. If it were to be stolen, I'd like it recovered ASAP in the best condition possible. It'd be difficult to find another car like this for what I'd get as a check if it was totaled or stripped.

No idea what the likelihood is of it being stolen, but it's a desirable black-on-black that someone looking to get into Uber/Lyft would probably want to drive.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32):
Who cares about where it's garaged?

The insurance carrier. Where you live/park your car overnight is the basis for all insurance rates. When I got my quote, I gave them my mailing address downtown to ship the GPS unit to, but my rate was based upon the zip code for where the car is parked at night. They didn't even ask for the address, just the zip.
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:02 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 34):
I've no idea if I made a good decision or not, which is why I put this question out there. What folks have posted has given me lots to think about.

I'll give you one more little thing to think about. Let's say you have a wreck, your insurance company pays out the damage to who you hit and they, the insurance company, doesn't come after you even if you were speeding, driving crazy, etc (but again, that does happen).

HOWEVER, the person you hit doesn't like what the insurance company is offering to them. What is to stop his/her ambulance chasing lawyer from getting a court order to demand your insurance company provide them your driving history. I'm not in anyway saying you are a bad driver, but again, if a pattern of speeding over the limit, even if it is only 5-10 miles an hour, or fast take offs/stops can be established, or anything else they can find from every mile you drive, you're screwed.

Really, I'm just at a loss to why anyone would provide any little chance of the other party/insurance company (yours or theirs) building a case against you when you have a wreck. Sorry to say that I realize that this is in everyone's future, but until I'm forced because I have no choice, I'm not signing up for this train wreck.
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Ken777
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:26 pm

I doubt if it will take long for lawyers demanding information on where you have been driving - especially in a divorce case. Frequent trips to the adult bar or massage parlor gets expensive. As does the address of a girlfriend.

The other side of the coin is the potential for selling data on where you drive. There may be more profits long term from selling the information than selling insurance itself.
 
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:02 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 34):
The insurance carrier. Where you live/park your car overnight is the basis for all insurance rates.

No, I understand that. My point was they already know where the car calls home...the issue is that now, the insurance company will have information as to where you take the car. The zip codes you frequent...and the increased risk you expose the vehicle to. Can they base your premium on these new facts?

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 35):
What is to stop his/her ambulance chasing lawyer from getting a court order to demand your insurance company provide them your driving history.

Good point. This all becomes evidence in a civil suit.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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AeroWesty
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:28 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 35):
HOWEVER, the person you hit doesn't like what the insurance company is offering to them. What is to stop his/her ambulance chasing lawyer from getting a court order to demand your insurance company provide them your driving history. I'm not in anyway saying you are a bad driver, but again, if a pattern of speeding over the limit, even if it is only 5-10 miles an hour, or fast take offs/stops can be established, or anything else they can find from every mile you drive, you're screwed.

Well again, the MetroMile unit doesn't record driving style habits, just where you go and when. If I brake hard, it doesn't know. This is different than Progressive's Snapshot which does record that info.

A few years ago I remember reading how Safeway used some guy's shopping history on his club card against him in a slip-and-fall case. He bought wine there occasionally. So yeah, you take on some risk giving out any kind of data anywhere, which is why I've never gone for the Snapshot to save 10% or whatever it is.

Overall, I'm a pretty safe and aware driver. Let's look at the flip side of your argument. If my data was subpoenaed, perhaps it could be used to show that I'm overall a prudent driver with a low probability for reckless behavior, and have that work in my favor. I don't drive like a grandma, but I'm not Evil Knievel, either.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
The other side of the coin is the potential for selling data on where you drive.

Yeah, one reason why I sent in the opt-out. The GPS data I've seen so far is dead on. You can pretty much tell that I head to one of those lotto casinos for my pack of smokes and cuppa coffee every morning, just by where I park in the strip mall. I just stopped at the library—if you know the lay of the land, the map shows I followed the right lane down to where I usually park here instead of going down the left side of the parking lot.  Wow!
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:29 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
Good point. This all becomes evidence in a civil suit.

That's the major thing that would stop me from getting this. Even if the Live Tracking feature is turned off, I assume the GPS still stores data. I wouldn't want that data to be subpoena'd for some reason.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 11):
2.Acceleration and braking

Damn, I would hate to have a policy that judged my driving on that! There are plenty of situations in which I have to slam on the brakes, due to another driver or a peacock running across the road. And I'm certainly one that tends to accelerate fairly hard when on the onramp to a highway, as there is nothing worse than a driver who tries to merge while going 30 mph slower than the highway traffic.
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:36 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 39):
Even if the Live Tracking feature is turned off, I assume the GPS still stores data. I wouldn't want that data to be subpoena'd for some reason.

It's in writing, as I said above, that once you click on the button to stop tracking, they delete your history within a reasonable period of time. If it turns out they didn't, I could retire on the bad faith settlement I'd get if GPS data was used against me in a major way.   
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:08 am

At the prices given that would be a 500% increase in my rate. I think I'll just decline. As for the people complaining about having a GPS in their car, you'd begs not be driving anything less than 4 of 5 years old, all vehicles come with GPS these days.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Tue Sep 16, 2014 5:26 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 40):
It's in writing, as I said above, that once you click on the button to stop tracking, they delete your history within a reasonable period of time. If it turns out they didn't, I could retire on the bad faith settlement I'd get if GPS data was used against me in a major way.

Sorry, I scanned all the replies, but missed that.

Still, what does "reasonable period of time" mean?
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:26 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 14):
can't deny you coverage you've paid for.

Yes they do this all the time.

This is a nasty system which can only end up screwing everyone over eventually. Insurance companies are not nice companies, they aren't doing this for your benefit, you're kiddign yourself if you think they are. They are using this technology because there is financial advantage for them to use it.
 
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:09 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 43):
They are using this technology because there is financial advantage for them to use it.

Exactly. I suggest you read every line of your policy. I suggest you read every line of it every time it comes up for renewal. Every time they send you a letter saying that they have amended their privacy policy or disclosure policy, I suggest you read every line of every correspondence you receive.

They are not doing this because they don't want you to get a parking ticket, they are doing it because it, somehow reduces their risk and provides them a financial advantage.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
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bhill
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:39 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 12):
You have an accident and you are speeding they can easily and legally say you were breaking the law and they won't cover crap. Samething if you have a blowout while speeding,

If you ARE speeding, you should pay more! Why should we subsidize your reckless driving habits? Also folks, you already ARE being charged by the mileage....why do you think they ask you that when you get a quote?? Statistically, more mile=greater chance of SOMETHING happening...If anything this is more ala-carte..I wish cable TV was like this....like his speeding habits..I'm paying for the Home Shopping Network......
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:09 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 45):
If you ARE speeding, you should pay more! Why should we subsidize your reckless driving habits?

Well, under most policies, you do pay more if you're speeding...you just have to get caught and 'convicted' of speeding AND the insurance company has to find out about it.

Using the 'per mile' system with active tracking an insurance company can real-time the information and set their rates accordingly...the middle-man (the police) doesn't get involved. Not, that Aero's carrier is doing that now, but the possibility exists using the technology.

Quoting bhill (Reply 45):
Also folks, you already ARE being charged by the mileage....

Sort of. We are paying for blocks of mileage. A per mile system would refine the premium setting system and, frankly making it more efficient and, in theory should lower premiums across the board. That, off course, assumes that everyone in the risk pool opts for the 'per mile' coverage.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
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par13del
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:15 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
• While I pay about 4¢ per mile as an add-on cost, it's capped at 150 miles per day, so if I take a long trip, I'm not paying out the wazoo for it;

My question, are you still covered on that long trip?

Only additional issue would be how many nearby states recognize it as being legal, would not want to go state to state and find that they do not accept your insurance after an accident.
 
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:19 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 47):
Only additional issue would be how many nearby states recognize it as being legal, would not want to go state to state and find that they do not accept your insurance after an accident.

Not an issue. An insurance needs to be valid and provide sufficient, minimum coverage for the state in which the vehicle is registered. I learned that when I moved back from Texas. I had to get a Kentucky insurance policy because my existing policy was written by a Texas insurance company. Though, they were both Allstate.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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par13del
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RE: Would You Buy Pay-Per-Mile Car Insurance?

Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:33 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 48):
Not an issue. An insurance needs to be valid and provide sufficient, minimum coverage for the state in which the vehicle is registered.

Apologies if I worded the question incorrectly, I meant whether the other states would accept the insurance from the issuing state where the vehicle is registered and I assume where the holder also lives.
I ask because I have found that insurance in one state can be accepted in another with conditions, especially where rentals are involved and you cross state lines.

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