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OA260
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New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:19 pm

A nice upgrade to the Tube experience.


'Driverless' Tube trains: See inside TfL's new London Underground fleet

Plans for a fleet of “driverless” Tube trains have been unveiled by Transport for London (TfL).

The fleet of 250 trains, which are not expected to be in service on the Tube until the mid-2020s, will start out with an operator on board, but will be designed and built to be “capable of fully automatic operation”.

The trains are part of what Mayor Boris Johnson has called the “New Tube for London”, the plans for which claim will increase the passenger capacity by thousands.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...don-underground-fleet-9785034.html








Video here :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6YDDCqufM4
 
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Aesma
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:20 pm

Why not make them automatic from the start ? It's not like it would be revolutionary now, let alone ten years from now !

When I take the Meteor line (14 line) in Paris I like to sit at the front, there is one big windshield without any obstruction :

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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:36 am

It's a nice looking design, quite traditional and in keeping with current stock but with plenty of futuristic touches, particularly like the interior and LED lighting at the front. It's just an artists impression and the production version will likely be very different but I like the way it's headed.

In terms of it being driverless, the unions are dead against the idea and will no doubt fight it all the way and that's the biggest obstacle for TfL and City Hall. I'm a Londoner and I've never particularly liked Boris Johnson as Mayor but I do support him on this, we've had driverless trains on the Docklands Light Railway since 1987 and I think automation across London Underground is inevitable.
 
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:38 am

What will be the security feature on these driverless trains? Will it be by video cameras? Will there be communication links to report trouble? Is there a dead man's switch? How will that work in case of mechanical/ computer failure. At what speed will they operate? I guess the unemployed drivers will become monitors.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:01 am

In addition to Paris Metro line 14 as mentioned above, Line 1 is also fully automated and quite fun to ride at the front.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:35 am

I haven't been in London for a while but from what I recall some of the stations had the tracks enclosed with doors that only open when the train is present (like most automated rail at airports). Is this the case for the line with these driverless trains? First thing I thought of is what if someone falls into the tracks.

Otherwise bring on the automation. Works well at airports; we should be able to do it on a larger scale, it just requires some money and the impetus.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:51 am

The Dubai metro is fully automated system, It is in operation since 2009
 
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:39 am

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 5):
Is this the case for the line with these driverless trains? First thing I thought of is what if someone falls into the tracks.

Hopefully, by the time they are operational (mid-2020's, probably later) these doors will be at most, if not all stations.
 
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:19 am

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):


'Driverless' Tube trains: See inside TfL's new London Underground fleet

Big woop, the 1967 Tube Stock used on The Victoria Line has always been operated using automatic train operation, they have a driver, he/she/it opens the doors and presses the start button, the train drives itself to the next station, this was a world first. The trains could operate without a driver but the public at the time didn't like the idea so they have a man in the cab.
 
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:32 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
Why not make them automatic from the start ?

My guess: The same reason why tube drivers get paid more than firemen, paramedics, some doctors and soldiers while doing far less hours: The union.

[Edited 2014-10-10 04:32:41]
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:45 pm

A hybrid automation system might come in question. In Munich, the subway accelerates and decelerates all by itself, which effectively makes a much denser frequency possible. There is still a driver in the regular place though, who controls the doors for instance and has to put the train in motion. He can also take over completely if the automation system (LZB) is unavailable for whatever reason.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:57 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 9):
My guess: The same reason why tube drivers get paid more than firemen, paramedics, some doctors and soldiers while doing far less hours: The union.

See my post above yours. Nothing to do with the unions, it was public reaction to driver-less trains that kept the driver on board.
 
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:22 pm

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 5):

I haven't been in London for a while but from what I recall some of the stations had the tracks enclosed with doors that only open when the train is present (like most automated rail at airports). Is this the case for the line with these driverless trains? First thing I thought of is what if someone falls into the tracks.

Platform edge doors were first installed on the London Underground during the Jubilee line extension in the 1990s, almost all the deep level stations were fitted with these doors to improve airflow and prevent people jumping or falling onto the tracks. It appears platform edge doors will be installed on deep level tube stations along other lines with the introduction of this new rolling stock, first the Piccadilly line and then the Central and Bakerloo lines.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 11):
See my post above yours. Nothing to do with the unions, it was public reaction to driver-less trains that kept the driver on board.

I doubt that would be the case today though, millions of people use the DLR in all its automated glory every year without a problem and there's also the fully automated people mover systems at Gatwick and Heathrow so the public are well accustomed to it by now and wouldn't have much of an issue with it on the London Underground.
 
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:35 pm

While the benefits of automation are obvious - lower cost, less dependence on people who might withdraw their labour - will the benefits be universally enjoyed. Will the lower costs be passed on in the form of lower fares and greater reliability of service?

Secondly, it is obviously accepted by the powers that be that automation does not lead to any unacceptable increase of risk to passengers, train carriages or other infrastructure, but not necessarily in that order.

So this begs the question of why automation is not extended to other forms of transport. If there is complete assurance that remote control of transport is safe, why do we persist in the current practice of having cabin crew on aircraft whose role is largely limited to issuing instructions to turn off mobile phones and selling tea and biscuits? Why do we still insist on having supernumeries in the flightdeck when the whole thing can be done remotely?

It surely can't be safety. A train carrying a few hundred passengers, many of whom are not seated and non of whom are wearing seatbelts, travelling on an electrically charged line is considered safe enough without any crew yet airlines that have a comparatively high high safety record demands redundant crew. Why?

We know that technology allows for control of an aircraft from launch to landing. We know that the actual instances where crew are required to evacuate an aircraft are minimal and no higher than other modes of transport that require no crew. We also know that the a significant proportion of incidents are ascribed to pilot error.

So why do we not accept crewless flights? Is it because of powerful unions or is it because the powers that be are not sure they can convince the travelling public, as KiwiBob suggests in relation to rail transport in an earlier era.

We know that Mal O'Leary has suggested reducing flight crews already. Many people have suggested that has just lip and self promotion but why should we assume it to be so. If Mo'L could getaway with it, would other airlines not follow suit? Is aviation intrinsically less safe than rail transport if there is no one on "deck" ? M O'L apparently thinks not and he is a man primarily concerned with the growth of an airline and possibly knows more about the subject than I do. Would he risk all if he thought it was not safe?

To be honest, I do not know. But to those who welcome the loss of jobs in other forms of transport or industries, there would need a pretty convincing argument to defend jobs in aviation on the grounds of safety in aviation when that industry is already regarded as the most safe. If I am supposed to welcome the loss of one man or woman's job in rail, why should I not welcome a job loss elsewhere?
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:46 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
Why not make them automatic from the start ? It's not like it would be revolutionary now, let alone ten years from now !

When I take the Meteor line (14 line) in Paris I like to sit at the front, there is one big windshield without any obstruction :

There is a big difference between the Paris Metro and the Tube. The Metro operates generally at much slower speeds, for one. The Tube can travel pretty fast - and the faster you go, the more people will feel more comfortable with a hand at the wheel.

Many airplanes are capable a fully automated flight, but would you get on an airliner without a pilot?
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 6:08 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
There is a big difference between the Paris Metro and the Tube. The Metro operates generally at much slower speeds, for one. The Tube can travel pretty fast - and the faster you go, the more people will feel more comfortable with a hand at the wheel.

There is a fully automated, driverless rapid transit line in a Seoul suburb called the Shinbundang line, and it regularly travels at speeds close to 90km/h.

It's been operational for a few years now and I haven't heard of many concerns regarding safety...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinbundang_Line
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:55 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Many airplanes are capable a fully automated flight, but would you get on an airliner without a pilot?

An airliner needs three dimensions of control, a tube train needs one. When something goes wrong on a tube train, it stops (and at worst derails). When something goes wrong on an airliner, it crashes out of the sky. And there are all sorts of emergency situations that can arise on an airliner that require human intelligence and creativity to solve best. I wonder how a computer would have tried to handle a situation like the US flight that went for a swim in the Hudson. These are the sorts of situations at which computers are not good at responding. Now, having said that, the majority of airline crashes that have occurred in recent years have been caused by human error (Asiana, Air France [447, the one at JFK that smacked the Comair RJ, the two separate inflight upsets on the A340], the SSJ CFIT, etc. etc. etc.), so I am in favor of more automation. But when the primary failure is technical, humans are very good at figuring their way out of it.

But trains have less variables and less failure modes.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):

There is a big difference between the Paris Metro and the Tube. The Metro operates generally at much slower speeds, for one. The Tube can travel pretty fast - and the faster you go, the more people will feel more comfortable with a hand at the wheel.

Also, the increased speeds are actually better for computers. Computers can react to situations in microseconds (even nanoseconds with GHz processors). Humans take tenths of a second.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:40 pm

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 12):
Platform edge doors were first installed on the London Underground during the Jubilee line extension in the 1990s, almost all the deep level stations were fitted with these doors to improve airflow and prevent people jumping or falling onto the tracks. It appears platform edge doors will be installed on deep level tube stations along other lines with the introduction of this new rolling stock, first the Piccadilly line and then the Central and Bakerloo lines.

There was a programme on recently regarding the crossrail link presently being tunneled under London. One part showed the huge ventilation ducts required as a result of installing platform edge doors. Presently the air displaced by the trains is expelled via the platform and escalators, close the platform off and it has to go somewhere else. The result is that its a lot harder job than might initially be thought.

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 13):
So why do we not accept crewless flights? Is it because of powerful unions or is it because the powers that be are not sure they can convince the travelling public, as KiwiBob suggests in relation to rail transport in an earlier era.

Its due to the difference between being airborne and running along a continuous metal line. The former doesn't provide much support in the event of power failure !!
 
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:01 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
There is a big difference between the Paris Metro and the Tube.

Yes, Metro stations are closer to each other, in some cases ridiculously so, I used to live by one in the Bastille quartier from which you could see both the previous and the next one ! That means going fast is more difficult. The 14 line though is much more like a Tube line, with few stations farther from each other, and it goes significantly faster than other lines, with very sharp accelerations.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:28 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 17):
There was a programme on recently regarding the crossrail link presently being tunneled under London. One part showed the huge ventilation ducts required as a result of installing platform edge doors. Presently the air displaced by the trains is expelled via the platform and escalators, close the platform off and it has to go somewhere else. The result is that its a lot harder job than might initially be thought.

Really? The platform edge barrier on the Jubilee line is open at the top. I wonder why they didn't do this on CrossRail.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:18 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 11):

See my post above yours. Nothing to do with the unions, it was public reaction to driver-less trains that kept the driver on board.

No it wasn't. It was the strikes which in turn made the public suffer whom in turn pressed to keep the drivers, so that the public can once again get about the city.

The union has held the system back for 40 years.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:02 am

For comparison, some train lines here in Japan are automatic, but they still employ a driver as a fail-safe.

Unlike driverless cars, I think this is a good idea, but for longer train lines and those going longer distances, I still think that a driver is necessary to mitigate uncertainties.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:23 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Really? The platform edge barrier on the Jubilee line is open at the top. I wonder why they didn't do this on CrossRail.

The barrier is full height on the Jubilee Line extension stations on the Eastern end of the line. These were built after it was realised that venting air from approaching trains through the public concourses was not a good idea, some of the older part is a conversion of older stations done before they realised this.
 
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:10 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 22):
These were built after it was realised that venting air from approaching trains through the public concourses was not a good idea, some of the older part is a conversion of older stations done before they realised this.

Then what about most other underground stations on the network, the air vents through the public concourses and out.
 
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:27 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 22):
These were built after it was realised that venting air from approaching trains through the public concourses was not a good idea, some of the older part is a conversion of older stations done before they realised this.

Then what about most other underground stations on the network, the air vents through the public concourses and out.


The vast majority of London's tube stations do not meet modern standards. the most noticeable deficiency being step free access for the disabled. They are working on it, but with each station typically having about 15 steps down to the ticket hall, the one or two escalators down to the platforms plus in some cases other short flights of steps, plus the platforms often being offset by 100's of metres from the ticket hall.
The result is that even what seems so easy - install doors at the platform edge and vent the air through a duct to ground level becomes difficult when you find that the platform isn't below the ticket hall, but below Selfridges three shops further down the road.
They are on a programme of gradually bringing them up to date, but it will take decades.
 
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:54 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 24):
The vast majority of London's tube stations do not meet modern standards. the most noticeable deficiency being step free access for the disabled.

Which is sort of ironic in that many of the central London stations had lifts which they were replacing with escalators when I was living there in the late 90's.
 
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:35 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 25):

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 24):
The vast majority of London's tube stations do not meet modern standards. the most noticeable deficiency being step free access for the disabled.

Which is sort of ironic in that many of the central London stations had lifts which they were replacing with escalators when I was living there in the late 90's.

The only central tube station that I can ever recall with only lifts is Covent Garden, all the others have always been escalators.
 
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:11 am

I don't understand why we should be celebrating a loss of jobs. We are going to get to a point where there will be no jobs left at the working class level.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:01 pm

Quoting a320fan (Reply 27):
I don't understand why we should be celebrating a loss of jobs. We are going to get to a point where there will be no jobs left at the working class level.

I don't think this is a great example to use over the loss of "working class jobs" Tube drivers have been exceedingly well renumerated for decades, their pay scale is way in excess of that of many who require extensive training and qualifications, especially in mind of the earlier statement that many tube lines are capable of automatic running and all the driver does is operate the doors.
The problem for the operators is that the drivers could and would bring the network to a halt if their pay and conditions were threatened, London could not function normally without the tube for any length of time, certainly not long enough to either train a new set of drivers or fully automate the lines.
TFL could convert one line at a time, but I doubt the drivers would continue to operate the other lines once conversion started on one.
 
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:47 pm

Quoting elite (Reply 7):
Hopefully, by the time they are operational (mid-2020's, probably later) these doors will be at most, if not all stations.

Ha ha, dream on. The cost is prohibitive. This system is only installed on a few Jubilee line stations.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:17 pm

The challenge is not the automation of the train. Driverless commuter trains have been operational for years across the globe. The challenge, the way I see it, is to convert a century old rail network designed for horse-pulled carriages to an automated one...

An automated train is pretty straightforward and already exists. Robotizing the Tube will mostly be about upgrading the infrastructure outside of the train, on the tracks and in stations.

I like the design of the trains, by the way. Now let's wait and see which contractor gets to build it.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:15 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 26):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 26):
The only central tube station that I can ever recall with only lifts is Covent Garden, all the others have always been escalators.

The station at Russell Square also only has lifts, no escalator.

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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:52 pm

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
The fleet of 250 trains, which are not expected to be in service on the Tube until the mid-2020s, will start out with an operator on board, but will be designed and built to be “capable of fully automatic operation”.

So, basically what is around today.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
Why not make them automatic from the start ? It's not like it would be revolutionary now, let alone ten years from now !

Do you realize how old the Tube is? Much of the infrastructure used today was already in place by the 1920s. As mentioned, they have had automatic trains since the 1960s, but people were far more comfortable with a driver in place, and platform doors didn't become a thing until the 90s.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
When I take the Meteor line (14 line) in Paris I like to sit at the front, there is one big windshield without any obstruction

Yeah, its pretty cool.

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 5):
I haven't been in London for a while but from what I recall some of the stations had the tracks enclosed with doors that only open when the train is present (like most automated rail at airports). Is this the case for the line with these driverless trains? First thing I thought of is what if someone falls into the tracks.

I'm thinking they will look to do that.

Quoting shamrock350 (Reply 12):

I doubt that would be the case today though, millions of people use the DLR in all its automated glory every year without a problem and there's also the fully automated people mover systems at Gatwick and Heathrow so the public are well accustomed to it by now and wouldn't have much of an issue with it on the London Underground.

The DLR runs with a staff member who has manual control if needed.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
There is a big difference between the Paris Metro and the Tube. The Metro operates generally at much slower speeds, for one. The Tube can travel pretty fast - and the faster you go, the more people will feel more comfortable with a hand at the wheel.

Line 14 travels quite fast.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):

Really? The platform edge barrier on the Jubilee line is open at the top. I wonder why they didn't do this on CrossRail.

CrossRail is new build, so they can incorporate whatever they want.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 24):
They are on a programme of gradually bringing them up to date, but it will take decades.

Yeah, its a major planning issue - much more difficult than building new lines.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 25):

Which is sort of ironic in that many of the central London stations had lifts which they were replacing with escalators when I was living there in the late 90's

Well, escalators are significantly more efficient. The real issue is with those who have disabilities, so they need a mixed system.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 26):
The only central tube station that I can ever recall with only lifts is Covent Garden, all the others have always been escalators.

Regent's Park and Russell Square come to mind immediately.

Here is an interesting map about access.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms...nts/avoiding-stairs-tube-guide.pdf
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:12 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
Yes, Metro stations are closer to each other, in some cases ridiculously so, I used to live by one in the Bastille quartier from which you could see both the previous and the next one !

You should see the "Metro" system in Minneapolis. Station stops in downtown are just a few blocks apart.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:23 am

Quoting af773atmsp (Reply 33):
You should see the "Metro" system in Minneapolis. Station stops in downtown are just a few blocks apart.

Same in Tokyo.

Yoyogi, Harajuku, and Shibuya are all within about 15 minutes walking distance.

Some of the station distances are as little as 0.6 KM apart.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:48 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 34):

Quoting af773atmsp (Reply 33):
You should see the "Metro" system in Minneapolis. Station stops in downtown are just a few blocks apart.

Same in Tokyo.

Yoyogi, Harajuku, and Shibuya are all within about 15 minutes walking distance.

Some of the station distances are as little as 0.6 KM apart.

You think that is bad, go look at the green line in Boston sometime. On the B branch you get stops within 500 ft of one another! And this isn't in the middle of downtown, this is at BU. Pretty ridiculous.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Mon Oct 27, 2014 1:57 am

The skytrain in Vancouver has been operating since 1986 and is completely autonomous. It has nothing like the length of the network of the Tube, however it does run 2 minute frequencies at peak times and at speeds up to 90 km/h. I feel more secure on a driver less train as I am confident that as all trains are controlled by the same computer, and it knows what all other trains are doing there is very little chance for collisions. There are multiple computers that all must agree, otherwise all trains stop.

I am all for the driverless trains in london as I think it would make the whole experience more enjoyable. Plus, it would reduce the time spent waiting at signals as trains are almost never late, and if they are for some reason, the whole system adjusts speeds to compensate.
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Stabilator
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:48 am

Quoting af773atmsp (Reply 33):
You should see the "Metro" system in Minneapolis. Station stops in downtown are just a few blocks apart.

Yep. Minneapolis implemented an idiotic system. Its presence is nothing but a nuisance on the U of Ms campus. Lightrail took out one of the two main streets that cross campus and ever since traffic congestion has been horrible. Stops every few blocks, poor routing, and half the time I see a train, it is halted on the tracks. Truly stupid.
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opethfan
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Mon Oct 27, 2014 5:28 am

Quoting flyboyseven (Reply 36):
The Skytrain in Vancouver has been operating since 1986 and is completely autonomous. It has nothing like the length of the network of the Tube, however it does run 2 minute frequencies at peak times and at speeds up to 90 km/h.

I've timed 100s intervals at Granville after fireworks, Olympics, or other events.
 
PHX787
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:55 am

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 35):
You think that is bad, go look at the green line in Boston sometime. On the B branch you get stops within 500 ft of one another! And this isn't in the middle of downtown, this is at BU. Pretty ridiculous.

It's not bad at all.

Getting out at a precise destination is quite efficient here in Japan. If there was no Harajuku station, going to Takeshita Street or Omotesando would take 20 minutes walk from Shibuya or Yoyogi.
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akiss20
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:10 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 39):
It's not bad at all.

Getting out at a precise destination is quite efficient here in Japan. If there was no Harajuku station, going to Takeshita Street or Omotesando would take 20 minutes walk from Shibuya or Yoyogi.

Not surprising the Japanese can pull it off. Sadly cannot say the same for the MBTA.
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N1120A
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:40 pm

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 35):

You think that is bad, go look at the green line in Boston sometime. On the B branch you get stops within 500 ft of one another! And this isn't in the middle of downtown, this is at BU. Pretty ridiculous.

Its fine. Actually, when they did propose closing stations, there was an outcry and only a few of the stops were closed. People like being able to get off closer to where they are going.
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57AZ
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:28 pm

Also, don't forget that occasionally steam locomotives operate on the Metropolitan line. Most of the Met dates to the original 1863 construction and was designed to be operated by Brunel broad gauge trains. Electricity only came to the underground around 1900. For many years, freight was also transported via the tube in dedicated freight wagons.
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:39 am

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 42):
For many years, freight was also transported via the tube in dedicated freight wagons.

That's amazing and seems somewhat impractical loading and unloading from such deep underground stations.
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rwessel
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:01 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 43):
That's amazing and seems somewhat impractical loading and unloading from such deep underground stations.

Most of the (actually underground*) tube lines are not all that deep, and many would be close to basements of large buildings.

Here in Chicago, coal, ash, freight and mail was moved to and from many buildings downtown in the early 20th century via a dedicated underground narrow gauge railroad. Many building had sidings that entered their basements. Some excellent pictures, oddly enough from a UK site:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...gos-abandoned-freight-tunnels.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Tunnel_Company

These were largely forgotten in the late 20th century, until work being done in the Chicago river (they were driving pilings into the riverbed), broke open one of the tunnels where it passed under the river. The great "Chicago Flood" flooded the basements of dozens of buildings (some had more than 40ft of water), and made an utter hash of the downtown area for a few days (gas an electricity were turned off to large areas, as you might expect), all without a drop of water visible from outside. The tunnels have now been plugged where they pass under the river.


*Only something like 45% of the "tube" actually runs underground
 
Max Q
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:08 am

Quoting rwessel (Reply 44):
Most of the (actually underground*) tube lines are not all that deep, and many would be close to basements of large buildings

I know there are some that are fairly shallow but the deep ones are very deep and used as bomb shelters in WW2

Quoting rwessel (Reply 44):

Most of the (actually underground*) tube lines are not all that deep, and many would be close to basements of large buildings.

Here in Chicago, coal, ash, freight and mail was moved to and from many buildings downtown in the early 20th century via a dedicated underground narrow gauge railroad. Many building had sidings that entered their basements. Some excellent pictures, oddly enough from a UK site:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...gos-abandoned-freight-tunnels.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Tunnel_Company

These were largely forgotten in the late 20th century, until work being done in the Chicago river (they were driving pilings into the riverbed), broke open one of the tunnels where it passed under the river. The great "Chicago Flood" flooded the basements of dozens of buildings (some had more than 40ft of water), and made an utter hash of the downtown area for a few days (gas an electricity were turned off to large areas, as you might expect), all without a drop of water visible from outside. The tunnels have now been plugged where they pass under the river.


*Only something like 45% of the "tube" actually runs underground

Truly fascinating, great pictures.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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57AZ
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:43 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 43):
That's amazing and seems somewhat impractical loading and unloading from such deep underground stations.

Actually, it was quite practical and much more efficient (and desirable) than adding wagons to the already congested streets of Victorian London. It's not at all unforseeable that freight might return to the Tube in the form of parcels trains running during off hours. Remember that the Tube shuts down after midnight. Here in the United States, most newspapers in urban areas moved by train until the 1970s. In places such as Chicago, the papers would be rushed from the press to the train stations and loaded on outbound commuter and passenger trains headed for the suburbs to pick up their first passengers.
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N1120A
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RE: New Driverless ( Tube ) London Underground Trains

Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:52 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 43):
That's amazing and seems somewhat impractical loading and unloading from such deep underground stations.

If it was one of the deep Tube lines, I'd agree. This is close to the surface.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 45):
I know there are some that are fairly shallow but the deep ones are very deep and used as bomb shelters in WW2

On the original section of the Tube, the tunnel is basically all cut-and-cover. Its not deep at all.
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