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1337Delta764
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Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:21 pm

Based on 2013 police cruiser sales, the top four selling police vehicles (in order) were the Ford Police Interceptor Utility (Explorer-based), Chevy Tahoe PPV, Dodge Charger PPV, and the Ford Police Interceptor Sedan (Taurus-based).

The Chevy Caprice PPV is far behind these four models in sales, which is quite surprising considering that it is RWD; I expected it to outsell the Taurus-based Ford Police Interceptor Sedan. Heck, even the old Impala PPV outsold the Caprice PPV by a slight margin in 2013.

So, why isn't the Caprice PPV selling well? An RWD platform seems like it would be ideal for police duty.
 
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GuitrThree
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:01 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
So, why isn't the Caprice PPV selling well? An RWD platform seems like it would be ideal for police duty.

First off I'm not a cop and have no hands on knowledge but I'll still venture a few guesses.

First, looking at the the 2014 vs the 2013 version, Chevy is touting improved interior space and a higher ground clearance. You have to remember, this car basically is the Pontiac G8, which was never designed for police duty. It was designed for handling and performance. Well, for a Pontiac, that is. The car is not built by Chevrolet. It is a rebadged Holden from Australia. When GM axed Pontiac, GM had not met it's contract with Holden to sell a set number of G8's, so they came up with the plan to sell them as Caprices, PPV only. If you look at the car parked next to any of the other mentioned, it's much smaller, and it's first year without the improvements probably killed a lot of return buyer sales.

And there is another problem. It's an Australian built car. Parts availability must be sketchy.

They are purposely set up to be order only cars to verified buyers, so the general public cannot buy them. Order/delivery times are long. Again, Australian built=boat time. Go to any dealer that deals with a number of police sales and you will always find a small handful of White Impala PPV, Taurus, Charger, etc sitting on the lot if a city needs one in a hurry. That's just not possible with the Caprice.

Although it's a bullet proof 5.7L V8, not all departments want that. The RWD Charger can be ordered with an HO V6.

If you need RWD, the Taurus is available with AWD, which makes the RWD EXTREMELY outdated.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
even the old Impala PPV outsold the Caprice PPV by a slight margin in 2013.

And will continue to do so. The "old Impala PPV" really isn't old, yet. It's still available at a much cheaper cost to buy and operate, and many departments have a boat load of them so why change things up. They are decent cars. FYI, they are now know as the "Impala Limited."

And finally, let's say it like it is. Two words. FORD EXPLORER. This thing is really the ultimate police vehicle. All the things you need in a vehicle except extreme high speed chase performance. And let's be honest. Those chases are going away more and more. The Explorer has all the room, ground clearance, curb climbing, heavy duty-ness and room that an officer wants. Great for Dogs. Great for Swat. Great for all kinds of gear. Great for weather with AWD. And besides that, they look pretty darn cool doing it. Downside? A little thirsty on gas, but a small trade off.

[Edited 2014-10-24 14:05:16]
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:59 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
So, why isn't the Caprice PPV selling well? An RWD platform seems like it would be ideal for police duty.

I see them almost daily on the Eisenhower Expressway pulling somebody over.
 
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:09 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 1):
First, looking at the the 2014 vs the 2013 version, Chevy is touting improved interior space and a higher ground clearance. You have to remember, this car basically is the Pontiac G8, which was never designed for police duty. It was designed for handling and performance. Well, for a Pontiac, that is. The car is not built by Chevrolet. It is a rebadged Holden from Australia. When GM axed Pontiac, GM had not met it's contract with Holden to sell a set number of G8's, so they came up with the plan to sell them as Caprices,

This isn't a G8, that is the SS.

This is a rebadged Holden Statesman/Caprice. Granted, it's based on a stretch Commodore platform, but it is not what the G8 was.
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:16 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 1):
You have to remember, this car basically is the Pontiac G8, which was never designed for police duty. It was designed for handling and performance.

Actually, the Caprice PPV is larger than the G8 and the recently-introduced Chevy SS. IIRC, the Caprice PPV is actually a rebadged (& stripped down) Holden Statesman and the fore-mentioned G8 & SS are rebadged Commodores.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 1):
When GM axed Pontiac, GM had not met it's contract with Holden to sell a set number of G8's, so they came up with the plan to sell them as Caprices, PPV only.

To go a little further; the main reason why GM went the Police Car Only route w/the Caprice PPV was because they thought they could meet the contractural obligations w/Holden without crucifying their overall fleet average fuel economy had such a vehicle been sold in the much wider retail market. One needs to remember that higher CAFE figures started kicking in when GM dropped Pontiac.

When it became painfully apparent (through many of the issues that you already mentioned) that the Caprice PPV fell way short of its sales expectations even in a very-limited fleet market; Chevy decided to offer essentially another rebadged Commodore/G8 as the SS to the retail market. With a starting price of $43,475 (it's supposed to be loaded high performance sports sedan); Chevy was/is hoping for the SS to sell enough of them just to meet their obligations w/Holden, again, without dragging down their overall fleet fuel economy average too severely.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 1):
The "old Impala PPV" really isn't old

It's been in its current form since 2006; in the eyes of the automotive world, that is considered old.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 1):
FYI, they are now know as the "Impala Limited."

Now that the new Impala sedan is in its 2nd year; one has to wonder how long the old one will continue to be produced?

With Holden going away completely in 2016 or 2017; GM's contractural obligations to Holden will die with it along with the Caprice PPV and SS sedans.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 1):
Two words. FORD EXPLORER. This thing is really the ultimate police vehicle. All the things you need in a vehicle except extreme high speed chase performance. And let's be honest. Those chases are going away more and more. The Explorer has all the room, ground clearance, curb climbing, heavy duty-ness and room that an officer wants. Great for Dogs. Great for Swat. Great for all kinds of gear. Great for weather with AWD. And besides that, they look pretty darn cool doing it.

One reason why many departments are choosing the Explorer-based Utility Interceptor (BTW, Ford now treats its police pursuit vehicles and its companion retail models as separate entities despite being the same vehicle) over sedans is because it's the only vehicle in the market besides a full-size SUV (like the Tahoe PPV) that offers over 60" of shoulder room (61" actually for the Explorer/Utility Interceptor, 1/2" wider than the old Crown Vic. Police Interceptor). All other full-size sedans, including the Caprice PPV, fall short of that. Such does indeed make a difference; especially for 2-man patrol duties.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 1):
Downside? A little thirsty on gas, but a small trade off.
Nothing new there.
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:40 pm

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 3):
This is a rebadged Holden Statesman/Caprice. Granted, it's based on a stretch Commodore platform, but it is not what the G8 was
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):
Actually, the Caprice PPV is larger than the G8 and the recently-introduced Chevy SS.

True. That's why I added the word "basically." While not the same car, it was a stretched version that could be subbed for the numbers needed in the contract.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):
It's been in its current form since 2006; in the eyes of the automotive world, that is considered old.

Yep. I was just pointing out that it's not a discontinued car.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):

I really don't know. Does this exempt them from CAFE?
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:46 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):
Now that the new Impala sedan is in its 2nd year; one has to wonder how long the old one will continue to be produced?

I believe it's planned to soldier on until 2016 for fleet production, as was the case with the 5th- and 6th-gen Malibus.

To contribute to the original question, the Omaha Police Department has a substantial fleet of them, with more on the way to replace aging Crown Vics.

[Edited 2014-10-24 17:48:39]
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:17 am

I just saw one of those thongs today and my first thought was that it is way too small to be a police car. My second thought is that it joins the Camaro and Corvette on the list of butt ugly cars.
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:50 am

My local city government has just replaced its fleet of Crown Vics with the Caprice, and I had a several minute chat with a police officer about the car. He told me it's absolutely fantastic - a much better car than the Crown Vic was, big enough, tough, and fast.

I think the Caprice just needs some time before it draws wide acceptance. GM didn't have a serious contender for police cars ever since the last Caprice went out of production in 1996. All they had in the market were the W-Body Chevrolet Impalas, which were awful pieces of junk, built by idiots, designed by morons, and they didn't hold up to the rigors of police duty. GM has turned itself around and now makes fantastic products - but it's going to take a while for their reputation to recover...

I spoke at length with a California Highway Patrol officer about the replacement of the Crown Vics. CHP had initially attempted to replace them with Dodge Chargers, but found them unsuitable. They drove well, but there was not enough room in the passenger cabin for a cage, plus all the equipment, computers, etc. As such, anyone taller than about 5'10" was not able to drive one comfortably - the driver's seat couldn't be pushed back far enough. The Chargers were phased out very quickly after a trial. They also tried the Taurus, but again, there were internal room issues. The CHP eventually settled on the Explorer as their primary pursuit vehicle, with the Ecoboost 3.5 liter engine. The Explorers are rapidly replacing the Crown Vics...

The Caprice just needs some time on the market - it seems that mostly smaller agencies, smaller cities and counties are buying them. Once operational experience comes in, and the cars prove themselves satisfactory, we'll see more of them being purchased by the police organizations. There's still a TON of Crown Vics out there left to be retired and replaced.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:12 am

Quoting Siren (Reply 8):
The Caprice just needs some time on the market - it seems that mostly smaller agencies, smaller cities and counties are buying them. Once operational experience comes in, and the cars prove themselves satisfactory, we'll see more of them being purchased by the police organizations. There's still a TON of Crown Vics out there left to be retired and replaced.

But the Caprice is WAY behind the top four selling current police cruisers in sales, and just slightly below the Impala. The top four are all within competitive range of each other. The Caprice has serious catching up to do in order to compete with the four best selling police cruisers.
 
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:41 am

I see very few Crown Victoria police cruisers here in the Phoenix area. I mostly see Chevy Tahoe and Caprice PPV cruisers in the city. I have seen a small number of Dodge Chargers, but that number seems to be dwindling. Although we also have a few SMART car Arizona State University police "cars" around too. LOL
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1337Delta764
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:04 am

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 10):
I see very few Crown Victoria police cruisers here in the Phoenix area. I mostly see Chevy Tahoe and Caprice PPV cruisers in the city. I have seen a small number of Dodge Chargers, but that number seems to be dwindling. Although we also have a few SMART car Arizona State University police "cars" around too. LOL

The Town of Gilbert has mostly been buying the Taurus-based Police Interceptor Sedan and more recently the Explorer-based Police Interceptor Utility.
 
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:04 am

People often forget that the California Highway Patrol often heavily dictates the purchasing habits of police nationwide. This is both because they have extremely high standards, and because they are huge buyers of cars and motorcycles, so it allows there to be better economies of scale. Further, when you combine CHP ordering with other California department ordering, its not surprising that those vehicles do well. A good example is when BMW broke into the US police motorcycle market in a big way - it started with a huge purchase by the CHP. CHP chose the Explorer.

Incidentally, I saw one of the Taurus Police Interceptors tooling around West L.A. in LAPD colors. I found this interesting, seeing that the LAPD also has some Chargers and I've seem some Explorers as well. I wonder if they are there for testing?

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):

So, why isn't the Caprice PPV selling well? An RWD platform seems like it would be ideal for police duty.

With AWD growing, its not as necessary.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 5):
I really don't know. Does this exempt them from CAFE?

Police cars are not counted for CAFE, but using the same model design creates CAFE problems for the mainstream market.
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:00 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 1):
The car is not built by Chevrolet. It is a rebadged Holden from Australia. When GM axed Pontiac, GM had not met it's contract with Holden to sell a set number of G8's, so they came up with the plan to sell them as Caprices, PPV only.

It's like GM has never been in the car business before. It's a very stupid plan.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 4):
With a starting price of $43,475 (it's supposed to be loaded high performance sports sedan); Chevy was/is hoping for the SS to sell enough of them just to meet their obligations w/Holden, again, without dragging down their overall fleet fuel economy average too severely.

And again, it's universally regarded as the finest sedan GM sells, with the possible exception of the CTS, although that's debatable. So GM is in a hurry to eliminate its finest car. Which is totally normal for GM.
 
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:16 pm

Interestingly, the LAPD split their bid between the Charger, Taurus and Explorer. I wonder why? Also, they went V6 with the Charger and 3.7 with the Taurus,

Quoting Siren (Reply 8):
I spoke at length with a California Highway Patrol officer about the replacement of the Crown Vics. CHP had initially attempted to replace them with Dodge Chargers, but found them unsuitable. They drove well, but there was not enough room in the passenger cabin for a cage, plus all the equipment, computers, etc. As such, anyone taller than about 5'10" was not able to drive one comfortably - the driver's seat couldn't be pushed back far enough. The Chargers were phased out very quickly after a trial. They also tried the Taurus, but again, there were internal room issues. The CHP eventually settled on the Explorer as their primary pursuit vehicle, with the Ecoboost 3.5 liter engine. The Explorers are rapidly replacing the Crown Vics...

Actually, the biggest issue was payload. The CHP requires a minimum 1500 pound payload over OEW. None of the sedans could offer this. The only choices that can do it are the Explorer and the Tahoe. The Tahoe's performance is unacceptable, so the Explorer was the only one. The CHP did allow the bid of the Taurus, but only so other agencies wouldn't have to go through the state bidding process.
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:04 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 14):
It's like GM has never been in the car business before. It's a very stupid plan

GM has recall problems period.
They can not seem to recall how to manufacture a vehicle to safety standards that does not require a recall.
They can not recall how market vehicles to pay their investors back.
They can not recall why the 2009 designs are not selling as well in 2015 model year.
That would be a start of the recall issues.

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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:01 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 1):
The "old Impala PPV" really isn't old, yet

But was never a suitable police car to begin with.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 1):
FORD EXPLORER. This thing is really the ultimate police vehicle

I agree. It handles great in the city and has a small turn radius. Handles like a car, room of a (small) SUV. My department is going to all SUV Interceptors as cars get replaced from now on.

Quoting Siren (Reply 8):
they didn't hold up to the rigors of police duty

Agreed.
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:18 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 16):
But was never a suitable police car to begin with.

Well sometimes they are. Nashville has been ordering the Impala for over a decade, and they serve them well. They need a slew of them and the lower cost verses the other options works for them. They don't have vast interstate/long roads so ultra high speed pursuits don't happen. When it comes to needed speed, cities like Nashville need the take off performance and let face it, the Impala can easily do that vs the heavy Crown Vic/PI. The V6 is pretty economical. FWD works for what little frozen weather we have. Rear seat cage room isn't all that bad. They had Crown Vics years ago but changed shortly after the last redesign of those in 98. There is no reason for a large city that has over a thousand cars to be burning the amount of fuel the Crown Vics did. I'm really interested to see what happens when the Limited goes away. I'm guessing if nothing else changes in the police market in the next two years it will be the Taurus.
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:52 pm

Is it cost effective to use such capable vehicles to "patrol" ? For example, instead of having a cage, just call a dedicated vehicle when an arrest has been made ?

It's how it's done here in France. And you often see 3 or 4 cops (not usually officers, officers have made an officers' school and are probably not patrolling) riding a simple Peugeot 308 or Renault Mégane hatchback, not much trunk room, no computer, as for the engine, a 4 cylinder diesel, maybe not the lowest powered one but not the highest either, probably 130hp or thereabouts. Alternatively they can ride a mountainbike (  ) :

http://auto.img.v4.skyrock.net/7403/19207403/pics/3112349033_1_5_mmiCRuOw.jpg

For highways the BRI, a specialized brigade of the gendarmerie (a military corps) drives a fleet of 2 doors Renault Mégane RS, the one you can buy has 265hp but unofficially the ones of the BRI are closer to 290hp.

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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:09 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
Interestingly, the LAPD split their bid between the Charger, Taurus and Explorer. I wonder why?

Probably for the same reason that New York City buys police cars from 3 different manufactures every year, in case there is a recall or major problems and the cars have to be removed from service, they will not have a majority of their fleet sitting in a garage awaiting repairs.

Many years ago New York City bought a large fleet of buses, I believe they were made then by a division of Grumman and almost the entire fleet developed cracks in the engine frames and had to be removed from service, this forced the city to scrounge up every available bus from other cities, either by renting them or buying up retired buses so the city could maintain adequate bus service.

So they probably learned their lesson from that experience.

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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Mon Oct 27, 2014 4:29 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
riding a simple Peugeot 308 or Renault Mégane hatchback, not much trunk room, no computer, as for the engine, a 4 cylinder diesel, maybe not the lowest powered one but not the highest either, probably 130hp or thereabouts.

Yes, I still think a Camry Hybrid would be a great police vehicle in the US for fuel burn reasons. They are being toughened by NYC taxi duties among others. They are big cars fully able to carry a heavy load. And they get double the efficiency of the Caprice PPV or the Crown Vic. They are ideal for slow & stopped urban work. As for acceleration, they will match the Crown Vic.

I don't get why police departments don't go hybrid. The dollars in fuel really stack up. If Ford sold a Taurus Hybrid, I think police departments would snap them up -- i.e. it is pure nationalism that we avoid Honda and Toyotas as police cars.

[Edited 2014-10-26 21:30:40]
 
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:10 pm

Quoting Siren (Reply 8):
I think the Caprice just needs some time before it draws wide acceptance.

I hate to break the news to you, and you must've overlooked my earlier post since I commented on this before; but, Holden, the company, is officially on death-row. Once Holden dies (probably after 2016-17); the Caprice PPV and SS sedans will, no doubt, go with it.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 5):
I really don't know. Does this exempt them from CAFE?


Police cars are not counted for CAFE, but using the same model design creates CAFE problems for the mainstream market.

Unless, there was a recent change made within the last few years when the CAFE standards started increasing again (I'm not aware of any); police vehicles are still subject to CAFE standards and gas guzzler taxes. The temporary lowering of the CAFE figure from 27.5 mpg to 26 mpg that took place in the late 80s was done, in part, to keep the 5.8L Police-packaged Crown Vics. (that many departments were purchasing) from getting hit with a gas guzzler tax and softening their dragging down Ford's overall fleet average.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
using the same model design creates CAFE problems for the mainstream market.

Which is the primary reason why police vehicles are likely still subject to CAFE standards & gas guzzler taxes. One needs to keep in mind that many of these vechicles wind up being sold to the retail markets as used cars after being retired from police duties... sometimes only after one year of police/patrol service.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
People often forget that the California Highway Patrol often heavily dictates the purchasing habits of police nationwide.
...
CHP chose the Explorer.

As you mentioned earlier, after production of the Crown Vic ended, CHP indeed beefed up their payload standards in such a manner that only SUVs meet their new criteria. Such a change makes it very clear that many law enforcement agencies aren't too willing to move down to smaller vehicles anymore.

Unlike the 70s, when cop cars, for the most part, had less after-market equipment installed inside; today's cop vehicles after-market equipment (including lap-tops & prisoner cages) take up much more space than their predecessors. Hence, such is why the largest sedans in a make's given line are usually chosen for police packages.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
I don't get why police departments don't go hybrid. The dollars in fuel really stack up. If Ford sold a Taurus Hybrid, I think police departments would snap them up

In most instances, the hybrid model of a vehicle is almost always much more expensive (in the $1000s) than the comparable gasoline-powered model... the Lincoln MKZ Hybrid sedan being one exception. Depending on the law enforcement agency in question, many patrol vehicles are only on "active" police duties for maybe 3 to 5 years at the most. Such a short duration may not be long enough for the hybrid-related fuel savings to overtake the difference in intial purchase cost of the vehicle. It's a classic case of benefit/cost analysis in play here. Some larger departments that use either Altima or Camry Hybrids for police duties are probably doing so on an experimental basis and those vehicles are not the department's entire vehicle fleet.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
Is it cost effective to use such capable vehicles to "patrol" ? For example, instead of having a cage, just call a dedicated vehicle when an arrest has been made ?

To some degree, similar was done with many highway patrol agencies using vehicles like Mustangs & Camaros as pursuit vehicles when the performance of police sedans were at all-time lows during the 80s. The big problem was that due to the lack of prisoner space of the pony cars, a regular sedan (like the Crown Vic, Caprice, Gran Fury or Diplomat) would need to be dispatched if the offending driver needed to be transported to the station or jail. Long story short, using two different vehicles to do the function that one vehicle should be capable of is not cost effective nor economical. Once full-size sedans started improving their performances in the early 90s; the need for a Mustang or Camaro Police Pacakge was no longer needed. Which was why Ford & GM dropped their respective pony car police packages. Note: newer Camaros & Mustangs seen in police liveries or used as unmarked vehicles are likely retail models purchased by police. Such practices are usually discouraged due to warranty reasons.

I personally refer to Mustangs & Camaros being used for pursuit duties as enclosed motorcycles.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
it is pure nationalism that we avoid Honda and Toyotas as police cars.

Like it or not, some agencies have a Buy American clause in their equipment purchase contracts. For the 3 model years that the Crown Vic was actually considered an import ('92-'93-'94 for CAFE reasons); those agencies that had such a clause gave them no choice but to look elsewhere (the B-bodied Caprice).

[Edited 2014-10-27 07:28:32]
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Flighty
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 21):
For the 3 model years that the Crown Vic was actually considered an import ('92-'93-'94 for CAFE reasons); those agencies that had such a clause gave them no choice but to look elsewhere (the B-bodied Caprice).

Haha, did not know that, that's great. Of course, the Camry / Accord are as American as anything, by parts count and labor inputs.

Yes, it seems some departments carry so much gear (military surplus toys?) that only an SUV / Crossover will do it.
.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 21):
many patrol vehicles are only on "active" police duties for maybe 3 to 5 years at the most. Such a short duration may not be long enough for the hybrid-related fuel savings to overtake the difference in intial purchase cost

Indeed, but let's look at some of these Crown Vics with 200k on the clock. That's 15,000 gallons of gas. In some places that's 40-45,000 dollars worth of gas. Now, the chance to cut that by half, or more, actually works in my view.
 
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Mon Oct 27, 2014 6:36 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 22):
Haha, did not know that, that's great. Of course, the Camry / Accord are as American as anything, by parts count and labor inputs.

Currently, what makes a vehicle classified as a domestic vs. an import is not where they're assembled but rather the percentage of parts that were made in the U.S. While many Accords & Camrys are assembled in the U.S., the majority of their parts & components are still built in Japan.

In short, if a vehicle has 75% or more parts assembled in this country; it's considered a domestic regardless of where it's assembled. The fore-mentioned '92-'94 Crown Vics were classified as imports by Ford simply by placing more Canadian-made parts in them.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 22):
Indeed, but let's look at some of these Crown Vics with 200k on the clock.

And just how many active police vehicles are still on duty with 200k on the odometers and are still owned by the original owners (police departments)? Most of them are retired from police work/pursuit duties after 75k-100k (usually by policy); where they're sold/auctioned off in the used car market or become taxi cabs. Either way, the cop-packaged Crown Vics that have 200+k are, more often than not, decommissioned models (i.e. no longer police vehicles).

As a result, the initial purchase cost differential along with any additional/different (hybrid-related) maintenance costs likely aren't yet overtaken by the fuel savings a hybrid offers. OTHO, if a police department plans on keeping a vehicle for 10+ years; that's another story.

Plus, not all hybrid systems are necessarily equal in design. The much touted Atkinson-cycle (that yields a higher city mpg rating than highway) is only found in Toyota & Ford hybrids. Other hybrids may utilize a diferent system that may not produce as good ratings as the Atkinson-cycle hybrids.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Flighty
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:18 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 23):
Most of them are retired from police work/pursuit duties after 75k-100k (usually by policy); where they're sold/auctioned off in the used car market or become taxi cabs. Either way, the cop-packaged Crown Vics that have 200+k are, more often than not, decommissioned models (i.e. no longer police vehicles).

Might well be true. I still see CVs in police livery sometimes. Those would be 4 years old minimum, and many departments run 40-60k per year, so they'd all have to be over 100-150k, this is a real thing happening.

Here's a nice article, not trying to prove anything, just thought it was nice. I like the idea of maintaining CVs, since they are totally maintainable until frame rust sets in. And you "could" prevent frame rust, if you coat them aggressively. The lifetime is almost unlimited, just like an airplane.


http://wkbn.com/2014/06/06/27-invest...orking-with-high-mileage-vehicles/
 
luckyone
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:49 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
I don't get why police departments don't go hybrid.

NYPD has Fusion Hybrids, Prius, Volts, and Escape Hybrids.

Several smaller police departments also have Camry hybrids for police work.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:56 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 24):
Here's a nice article, not trying to prove anything, just thought it was nice. I like the idea of maintaining CVs, since they are totally maintainable until frame rust sets in. And you "could" prevent frame rust, if you coat them aggressively. The lifetime is almost unlimited, just like an airplane.

IIRC, similar was being done with some of the B-body Caprices for a short period during the late 90s. A law enforcement agency could get a refurbished '91-'96 model and put on active patrol duty.

Nonetheless, that article conveys that the department believes that it's saving money by keeping & maintaining the Crown Vics longer vs. buying newer more fuel efficient equipment for replacments... hybrids or otherwise.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
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Aesma
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Tue Oct 28, 2014 6:32 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 21):
if the offending driver needed to be transported to the station or jail. Long story short, using two different vehicles to do the function that one vehicle should be capable of is not cost effective nor economical.

Well, the "if" is important, how many arrests are made every day with each car will tell you what is most cost effective. In France it seems the separate prisoner vehicle, usually a van not a sedan, with capacity for several prisoners, called a "salad basket", is deemed more cost effective.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 21):
I personally refer to Mustangs & Camaros being used for pursuit duties as enclosed motorcycles.

Aren't motorcycles still used, though ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:34 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
The Chevy Caprice PPV is far behind these four models in sales, which is quite surprising considering that it is RWD;

No surprise at all. A car made in Australia, only being sold to police departments in another continent with no private consumer being allowed to purchase? It's a miracle it sales at all. Such a limited sector.
If these cars were sold to consumers in North America and all it's variants, then it would be cheaper and more police departments would buy them.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 26):
IIRC, similar was being done with some of the B-body Caprices for a short period during the late 90s. A law enforcement agency could get a refurbished '91-'96 model and put on active patrol duty.

San Francisco police department had those around well in to the mid 2000s. I got pulled over in 2004 by a 1996 Chevrolet Caprice squad car. By 2006, they were limited to truancy patrol chasing bad kids ditching school.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 21):
Unlike the 70s, when cop cars, for the most part, had less after-market equipment installed inside; today's cop vehicles after-market equipment (including lap-tops & prisoner cages) take up much more space than their predecessors.

You mean SCMADS? State County Municiple Affender Data System?
I hate SCMADS!   
Bring back the Concorde
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Tue Oct 28, 2014 2:11 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
In France it seems the separate prisoner vehicle, usually a van not a sedan

Typically, vans are higher priced than sedans (which also consumes more fuel). While some large city police divisions have their own fleet of vans already; such is not the case for smaller towns nor smaller highway patrols. Cost (read: taxpayer money) is the primary reason.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
Aren't motorcycles still used, though ?

In some instances & regions, yes. In the northeastern part of the country (where I reside), police motorcycles are usually only around during the warmer seasons. The only time I've recently state police motorcycles in action (outside of a parade) was once when I was riding along I-295 in NJ and I saw four police motorcycles (with their rotators/strobes on) surrounding an exotic sports car (Ferrari or Lamborghini) off to the shoulder.

While motorcycles are fast pursuit vehicles for sure; they don't offer the protection (from collisions & the weather elements) and space for equipment (example: active laptops) & prisoners that a car or SUV offers. In the States, a cop vehicle is literally their office-on-wheels.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Superfly
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:30 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 29):
While some large city police divisions have their own fleet of vans already;

So true an those are only brought out when there is a riot or Oakland Raiders game.   

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
Alternatively they can ride a mountainbike

The police in San Francisco would bring out their bikes for the Gay Pride parade.
They also patrol around the financial district - mainly telling homeless people to move from building entrances.
Bring back the Concorde
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:02 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
Is it cost effective to use such capable vehicles to "patrol" ? For example, instead of having a cage, just call a dedicated vehicle when an arrest has been made ?

See below.

Quoting jetstar (Reply 19):
Probably for the same reason that New York City buys police cars from 3 different manufactures every year, in case there is a recall or major problems and the cars have to be removed from service, they will not have a majority of their fleet sitting in a garage awaiting repairs.

LAPD bought only Crown Vics for years. CHP bought all Crown Vics, but for a few halo sports cars for pursuit and mainly for PR.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 21):

Unless, there was a recent change made within the last few years when the CAFE standards started increasing again (I'm not aware of any); police vehicles are still subject to CAFE standards and gas guzzler taxes. The temporary lowering of the CAFE figure from 27.5 mpg to 26 mpg that took place in the late 80s was done, in part, to keep the 5.8L Police-packaged Crown Vics. (that many departments were purchasing) from getting hit with a gas guzzler tax and softening their dragging down Ford's overall fleet average.

Seems odd that either of those things would happen.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 21):
As you mentioned earlier, after production of the Crown Vic ended, CHP indeed beefed up their payload standards in such a manner that only SUVs meet their new criteria. Such a change makes it very clear that many law enforcement agencies aren't too willing to move down to smaller vehicles anymore.

I don't believe they were beefed up. The Crown Vic met the standard.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 22):
Yes, it seems some departments carry so much gear (military surplus toys?) that only an SUV / Crossover will do it.

The CHP wasn't counting that kind of stuff. They already count 900 pounds just for 4 officers and their physical gear.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 22):
Indeed, but let's look at some of these Crown Vics with 200k on the clock. That's 15,000 gallons of gas. In some places that's 40-45,000 dollars worth of gas. Now, the chance to cut that by half, or more, actually works in my view.

The LAPD guy said that 2 MPG difference influenced the choice between the V6 and V8 Charger. Also, they can't really take advantage of the 4 cylinder shut off.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 29):

Typically, vans are higher priced than sedans (which also consumes more fuel). While some large city police divisions have their own fleet of vans already; such is not the case for smaller towns nor smaller highway patrols. Cost (read: taxpayer money) is the primary reason.

I can see more urban areas using paddy wagons and having smaller cars around for patrol. That said, there are major economies of scale at work and the price for police cars is substantially lower than the comparable civilian car.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 29):
In some instances & regions, yes. In the northeastern part of the country (where I reside), police motorcycles are usually only around during the warmer seasons. The only time I've recently state police motorcycles in action (outside of a parade) was once when I was riding along I-295 in NJ and I saw four police motorcycles (with their rotators/strobes on) surrounding an exotic sports car (Ferrari or Lamborghini) off to the shoulder.

In California, they are used a lot. Mostly for ease of hiding and maneuverability for traffic enforcement.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 29):
While motorcycles are fast pursuit vehicles for sure; they don't offer the protection (from collisions & the weather elements) and space for equipment (example: active laptops) & prisoners that a car or SUV offers. In the States, a cop vehicle is literally their office-on-wheels.

The office-on-wheels thing is overblown. They have a computer to check warrants and they may or may not print tickets out (still hand written in California).

Anyway, motorcycles are usually used for traffic and as escorts in California. Further, they do carry shotguns on them.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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KaiGywer
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RE: Why Isn't The Chevy Caprice PPV Selling Well?

Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
The office-on-wheels thing is overblown. They have a computer to check warrants and they may or may not print tickets out (still hand written in California).

Our computers can do a lot more than check for warrants. I type all my reports in my car. The only time I go into the office is to hand in attachments to reports, the report itself is signed electronically and transmitted to the commander wirelessly. So not, not really overblown where I work.
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