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zrs70
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Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:49 am

So very sad. Would be a godsend if peace could embrace the region. Imagine what an incredible force for good the combined brain power could produce.


http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/1.627084
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Aaron747
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:06 am

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):

So very sad. Would be a godsend if peace could embrace the region.

Indeed. The terror reprisals and ongoing refusal of anyone in the Knesset to stop settlements are helping nobody.

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
Imagine what an incredible force for good the combined brain power could produce.

Imagine how many fewer Palestinians would be unemployed and pissed off if Israel made a concerted effort to replace Palestinian organizations as chief benefactor of the Palestinian people.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AR385
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:21 am

This is terrible, sad news. I am no fan of Israel but when you have fanatics on both sides with such disdain for human life you have to wonder if there is any hope for the region. Everybody has the right to go to their places of worship without threats of any kind.
 
photopilot
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:35 pm

Why is the title of this thread so completely wrong? There were NO Israelis killed.

This is directly from the article's sub-head...... "all fatalities held British or American citizenship."
 
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fxramper
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:12 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 3):

All deceased are dual Israeli - British/US citizens so they are in fact Israeli.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...adly-attack-in-jerusalem-synagogue
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:20 pm

What on earth?

Quote:
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ordered authorities to demolish the assailants' homes
International Homo of Mystery
 
sfbdude
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:50 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):


Don't be so confused:

Quote:
Default Israel's Policy of Punitive Home Demolitions

Netanyahu announces return of controversial punitive home demolitions widely viewed as collective punishment

As tensions seethe in Jerusalem the Israeli government has resurrected polices from the Intifada-era including punitive home demolitions as a measure of deterrence against attacks on its citizens. Over the past three weeks five Israelis have been killed in hit-and-runs and stabbings while four suspected Palestinian assailants have been shot by police.

Speaking in a security cabinet meeting Tuesday evening, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu announced the controversial policy to raze houses will be reinstated on a broad scale to quell violence that has centered in Jerusalem. “These steps include increasing forces on the ground throughout the country in order to boost your security, citizens of Israel; the demolition of terrorists’ homes,” he said.

Netanyahu added fines would be imposed on the parents of Palestinian children suspected of stone throwing, a crime that as of last week has become punishable with up to 20 years in prison. His security cabinet meetings followed Monday’s deadly knife attack on two Israelis—one in Tel Aviv and another in a West Bank settlement. Israeli Sgt. Almog Shilony, 20, was stabbed to death while in uniform at the Haganah Train Station in Tel Aviv by Maher al-Hashlamu, 30, a Palestinian from Hebron. Hashlamu was taken into police custody. Hours later settler Dalia Lemkus, 26, an occupational therapist at a kindergarten from the settlement of Tekoa was also attacked with a knife by an unidentified Palestinian man at a bus stop in Alon Shvut in the Gush Etzion settlement bloc. The Israeli news outlet YNet noted, “The attack occurred some 100 meters away from the hitchhiking stop from which three Israeli yeshiva students–Eyal Yifrach, Gil-Ad Shaer and Naftali Frenkel–were kidnapped in June.”

Even before Tuesday night when Netanyahu declared the return of home demolitions on a policy level, there were calls inside of the government to bring it back. “Anyone who attacks police or civilians, his home should be demolished,” said Security Minister Yitzhak Aharonovic while visiting the family of Chaya Zissel, a three-month old Israeli-American who was killed on October 22, 2014 in a motor attack at a light rail stop in East Jerusalem by Palestinians Rahman al-Shaludi, 21. Al-Shaludi was gunned down while fleeing the scene by an off duty police officer. He died in a Jerusalem hospital where his wounds went untreated for hours.

Days later his family was informed by Israeli border police that their homes would be demolished as they prepared to receive al-Shaludi’s remains for his funeral. (Israeli police limited the number of mourners at the funeral to 20, yet another Intifada-era policy.) The family of another attacker, Mutaz Hijazi, 32, a Palestinian from the Jerusalem neighborhood of Abu Tor who attempted to assassinate Temple Mount activist Yehuda Glick, on October 29 said border police gave them the same message. It came while authorities dragged Hijazi’s body from the rooftop of his home after undercover forces littered him with bullets as he hid under a solar panel. His family called his death an extra-judicial killing.

Reinstating punitive home demolitions

Punitive home demolitions were once a staple of Israeli policy during the first and second Intifadas. The Israeli military abandoned home razing in 2005 citing its ineffectiveness. It was used as a punishment on the family members of Palestinians whose relatives committed violent acts against Israelis. Critics have cited the practice as collective punishment and in contradiction to international law, which Israeli courts have held up at times when overturning individual cases of demolition orders.

The Israeli human rights group B’tselem reported between from October 2001 and February 2005, “The IDF has demolished as punishment 675 housing units, which were home to 4,239 persons,” adding, “From 1967 to the outbreak of intifada, Israel demolished more than 1,800 homes as punishment.” Since 1967 more than 27,000 homes have been razed, however, demolitions as punishment or criminal deterrence constitute two-percent of that amount.

Even before the first Intifada punitive home demolitions had existed in Israel’s arsenal of force in the occupied Palestinian territories. Codified by a military order in 1967 that was rooted in hangover codes from the British Mandate, the law went relatively unchallenged until 1979 when Israel’s High Court debated the legality of the practice. Ultimately jurists approved the practice as a legitimate mode of deterrence.

Netanyahu’s Tuesday announcement was not the first time punitive home demolitions have been “brought back” from the time of the two Palestinian uprisings. A closer look shows the policy has crept back into use over the past decade as relations with the Palestinian Authority strained. In 2009 a Palestinian home was destroyed as punishment. At the time it seemed like a one-off case. Then last summer the issue surfaced in Israel’s High Court again after an order was distributed for the first time in nine years to the family of two Palestinians (a father and son team) who killed Baruch Mizrahi in a shooting outside of Hebron. In that instance home demolition was proposed on an ad-hoc basis. There was no indication there would teams of bulldozes with paper orders singed by army commanders to turn a home into rubble in the future.

Yet hours after the High Court met on June 30, 2014 the bodies of three Israelis abducted last summer were found. Overnight the Israeli army and Shin Beit (secret security) officials went to the homes of the on the lam abductors Amer Abu Aisha and Marwan Qawasmeh. All of their relatives were removed from the houses around midnight while soldiers set incendiary devices on timers. Their apartments were decimated by explosion. Days later, the home demolition order from the Mizrahi case was approved, setting in line two systems of implementing punitive home demolitions. One by an army order, as done during the Intifadas, and two more carried out with no prior notice or opportunity for appeal, as done with the Abu Aisha and Qawasmeh homes. Still it was not clear until Netanyahu’s announcement that punitive home demolitions are back as a policy. Andthey can now be issued with the same frequency as during both the first and second Intifadas.

--Allison Deger is the Assistant Editor of Mondoweiss.net. Follow her on twitter at @allissoncd

Source:http://mondoweiss.net/2014/11/contro...ons-collective
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 1):
The terror reprisals and ongoing refusal of anyone in the Knesset to stop settlements are helping nobody.

Why is there not more noise coming from the Israeli opposition parties with regards to these illegal "settlements" ?

Someone must have something to say about it. I understand the Bibi is powerful, but, as Aaron747 has perviously pointed out, not ALL Israelis are behind him.....

I'd just like to see some more local Israeli (from within Israel) speak out against the continued policy of illegal settlements.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
Everybody has the right to go to their places of worship without threats of any kind.

And Israel has restricted access to the Temple Mount to ALL Non Jews over the last several weeks. A high;y provocative move, which was bound to stir up trouble, now he's got it !

I am now firmly of the opinion, that this is Bibi's MO, his great grand plan. He wants to incite trouble so he can then blame the Palestinians/Hamas when they retaliate .


Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
What on earth?

Yeah.... What on earth ?

Demolish homes of the perpetrators and fast track the demolishing of homes of those responsible for past attacks.....

I guess the only thing it achieves, apart from alienating a whole lot of more people, is it makes way for more room for new settlements !!

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 6):
Don't be so confused:

Oh, I don't think there is any confusion. Its as clear as day what he's up to.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
AR385
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:12 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 7):
And Israel has restricted access to the Temple Mount to ALL Non Jews over the last several weeks. A high;y provocative move, which was bound to stir up trouble, now he's got it !

Yes. And that is a typical behavior of Bibi. Provocative too. At the same time, people at prayer at 7AM, unarmed, in their place of worship, should not be attacked like cattle in a slaughterhouse. One thing does not justify the other.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 7):
I am now firmly of the opinion, that this is Bibi's MO, his great grand plan. He wants to incite trouble so he can then blame the Palestinians/Hamas when they retaliate .

Yes. You are probably right. But innocent people, of whichever camp, religion, race or region should not pay, as I previously stated, for the fanaticism of both their leaders.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:58 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
One thing does not justify the other.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
for the fanaticism of both their leaders.

You are right AR385, two wrongs don't make a right, without doubt.

The only thing id say though, is that I don't really see many provocative actions coming from Abbas camp, after all, he's not announcing new settlements every second week on disputed land (land which hangs) in the balance regards the peace plan.

Abbas is not restricting Israelis coming to and from there place of work, or to see family or to seek medical treatment or just to go to school.

Abbas is also not uprooting 100's if not 1000's, of olive trees.

Abbas has not blockaded large parts of territory, whereas Bibi has imposed restrictions on every day things like household goods and foodstuffs.

Abbas has not built walls, hindering free movement/passage of individuals to go about there business.

Abbas dose not limit how many people can turn up for a funeral, this is another Bibi provocation

So, having said all that, one can only turn the cheek so many times, before you loose your head completely. If you are going to keep beating a dog with a stick, eventually it will bite back......

Is it the dogs fault it bites ?

You tell me !
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Cadet985
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:01 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
Is it the dogs fault it bites ?

No...but don't be surprised when the dog gets killed by someone, either. All the Palestinians did this morning was enrage a sect of Jews who are normally fairly peaceful, and anti-Zionist (they do not believe there can be a Holy Land for the Jews until the Messiah arrives). They're going to want revenge, and if Bibi doesn't do it, they'll do it themselves.

I've seen how offended ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem neighborhoods like this act when a girl walks through in a skirt too short, or a man and woman hold hands who aren't married. They get rocks thrown at them. I'm not kidding. The attackers today killed four rabbis, one police officer, and wounded many others.

The metaphorical dog has bitten. Hope for the its sake it gets a slap with a rolled up paper, and nothing worse. I'm keeping my thoughts to myself.

Marc
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:50 pm

I am against any kind of criminal acts of terrorism by either side.
What i find surprising is that there is no mention in the western news about another criminal act committed few hours earlier when some Israeli settlers lynched an innocent Palestinian driver.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
AR385
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:55 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):
What i find surprising is that there is no mention in the western news about another criminal act committed few hours earlier when some Israeli settlers lynched an innocent Palestinian driver.

You probably did not hear it. But they mentioned it on CNN and the BBC all morning. They did say it was ruled a suicide by the police though. Wether that is true or not, well, it´s not for me to say or debate.

[Edited 2014-11-18 16:07:27]
 
Cadet985
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:01 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):
What i find surprising is that there is no mention in the western news about another criminal act committed few hours earlier when some Israeli settlers lynched an innocent Palestinian driver.

I am unable to find references now, but I did hear the story, and several outlets reported it as a suicide. What I did hear, is that the bus was in the Central Bus Terminal in Jerusalem. Having been in that building on numerous occasions myself, it would be difficult for someone to get to a bus before boarding time unnoticed.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:09 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):
What i find surprising is that there is no mention in the western news about another criminal act committed few hours earlier when some Israeli settlers lynched an innocent Palestinian driver.

It received a token news report here.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 12):
They did say it was ruled a suicide by the police though.

I believe the autopsy was carried out by Israeli medical personnel in Israel. The family of the man have rejected the idea it was sucicide (apparently he hanged himself inside the bus ???)

I am not sure how you can do that, hang yourself inside a bus ?

Other witnesses have claimed to have seen visible injuries on the man before he was found dead

Hamas have now claimed responsibility for the attack, claiming its revenge and calling for more attacks in the future

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...ian-bus-driver-found-hanged-382106
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Cadet985
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:17 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
I am not sure how you can do that, hang yourself inside a bus ?

Hand holds, wheel chair restraints, a belt and a pole.

I've watched too many Law and Order episodes.

Marc
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:27 am

SOBHI51, NHK also reported this morning that a mosque was set on fire in Jerusalem just days ago, so a lot of global media are not being as unbalanced as you may think.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Cadet985
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:35 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 16):

Part of me has to wonder if some of this isn't being done by Abu Mazen's "government" or Hamas to make Israel look like the bad guy.

Marc
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:32 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Part of me has to wonder if some of this isn't being done by Abu Mazen's "government" or Hamas to make Israel look like the bad guy.

According to the Shin Bet Chief Yoran Cohen.....the answer is NO.

Quote from article,

"No one among the Palestinian leadership is calling for violence, Cohen said, noting that Abbas has reiterated that the path of intifada should be rejected."

"Cohen rejected claims that Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas was involved in igniting passions and violence among Palestinians in East Jerusalem"


And this.....

"Cohen also told the MKs that the murder of Palestinian youth Mohammed Abu Khdeir this summer by Jews was a decisive event in advance of the outbreak of major clashes in East Jerusalem in recent months."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.627173
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Cadet985
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:11 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 18):
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.627173

As you are quoting a premium article to which I do not have access, I cannot analyze it, or form any type of response.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 18):
"Cohen also told the MKs that the murder of Palestinian youth Mohammed Abu Khdeir this summer by Jews was a decisive event in advance of the outbreak of major clashes in East Jerusalem in recent months."

He would not have been murdered if the terrorists didn't murder three innocent youths. This argument is null and void.

Marc
 
ElanusNotatus
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:08 am

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
So very sad. Would be a godsend if peace could embrace the region.

Yes it sad that people are being killed in such attacks, particularly since such attacks are self-defeating. My commiserations to the families of those who have died and may those who were injured see a speedy recovery.

Peace would indeed be a wonderful thing. The questions arise, on what terms and how to achieve it? When you have collective memories denying the past, new realities are created that most likely will continue to produce discrimination, resentment and reaction.

When you have a state that proudly boasts that it is not a state of all its citizens but just of one part of its citizenry, how can one expect all to enthusiastically support it? When you have a state that proudly proclaims to the World that non-resident Jews in countries like Russia or the US have greater proprietorship over the land than Arabs and other non-Jews who were born there and are citizens, how can one insist that there is equality before the law? When you have a state that controls land in which the population are not regarded as citizens and can be relocated to benefit the chosen few, how can one claim that state is a democracy rather than a liberal ethnocracy?

We know that consensus among leading Israeli politicians and intellectuals is that the Land of Israel is one and indivisible. That which outside of Israel is known as the West Bank is considered in the prevailing view as the heartland of the Land of Israel - Judea and Samaria - and can not be relinquished. Added to this is the fact that what is internationally regarded as Palestine is increasingly too fragmented to sustain a viable Palestinian state.

This poses a problem for the State of Israel. Some politicians have advocated annexation combined with "encouraging" Arabs to leave, albeit (at least in their public statements) through paying them to go. Ethnic cleansing by any other name, it would continue the project set in motion prior to 1947 and the subsequent implementation of Plan Dalet. The means may change but the objective remains the same to those who support this proposition.

Should Israel continue as at present, paying nominal lip service to a Two State Solution, while encroaching on land, dispossessing its inhabitants, demolishing their homes and denying them a voice? Or does it simply annex the land and proclaim all its inhabitants citizens with full equality before the law? To do the former challenges its claims to being democratic. To do the latter delegitimises its essential claim of Israel being a Jewish State.

Until this dilemma is resolved, it is hard to see a future in which Jew and non-Jew can live side by side in peace.
Crawl, walk, fly into the future
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:40 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 19):
This argument is null and void.

Has a proper court case been conducted to find out if the accused are innocent or guilty of the 3 teenagers murders, or even what part if any they took in the kidknapping and subsequent murder ?

If no, then you can hardly claim "this argument is null and void" as NO argument has been made ???

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 20):
We know that consensus among leading Israeli politicians and intellectuals is that the Land of Israel is one and indivisible. That which outside of Israel is known as the West Bank is considered in the prevailing view as the heartland of the Land of Israel - Judea and Samaria - and can not be relinquished. Added to this is the fact that what is internationally regarded as Palestine is increasingly too fragmented to sustain a viable Palestinian state.
Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 20):
Until this dilemma is resolved

Israel holds most of the cards, (at this point in time) or the ones that matter anyway, and if they won't play fairly and nicely with the Palestinians, then they should be made too, by way of a Palestinian state declared by a third party......

Perhaps the idea of a two state solution should be taken away from Israel (they seem incapable or though, I really don't think they want one, of making a decision anyway) and perhaps the EU/UN could make a determination, it would happen one hell of a lot faster than "negotiating" with a bunch of Bibi's fanatical religious maniacs, who really don't want peace or a two state solution.

Then, give the "new" Palestinian state ALL the support they require, both military, political and financially, just as Israel has enjoyed for decades. Give them voting rights at the UN, intact, give them everything Israel currently enjoys, just to even the score a little.

Problem solved !

Israels pathetic leaders, could then turn around and cry to their constituents, that's its not their fault, its the EU or the UN or whoever for dividing Israel up

lets see how things pan out then?


Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 20):
Should Israel continue as at present, paying nominal lip service to a Two State Solution, while encroaching on land, dispossessing its inhabitants, demolishing their homes and denying them a voice?


You bring up a good point..... "lip service" or another words, BS, and tons of it by Israel.

The mere fact, that they (Israel) are playing this game, while innocent peoples lives are being completely ruined, and trashed, their possessions of land and houses stolen, means this is now no longer a game.

[Edited 2014-11-18 21:43:04]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Cadet985
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:25 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):

You know what...give the Palestinians a state. Let them - be it their citizens or government throw one pebble at Israel, and Israel will own it all.

But any argument you tried to make on here using Haaretz - is devoid of value. It's a premium value - which can only be fully read by subscribers, and the vast majority of Israel's population disagrees with Haaretz's editorial standpoint from a political point of view. They're more inclined to go with the Jerusalem Post, Army Radio, or Arutz Sheva - in my experience.

I'm not going to clash with you and get banned again.

I'm Jewish, a Zionist, and proud of both.

Marc
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:13 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 22):
But any argument you tried to make on here using Haaretz

Ok, lets try theJerusalem Post then, if it makes you feel more..... included ?

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 22):
But any argument you tried to make on here using Haaretz - is devoid of value. It's a premium value - which can only be fully read by subscribers, and the vast majority of Israel's population disagrees with Haaretz's editorial standpoint from a political point of view. They're more inclined to go with the Jerusalem Post, Army Radio, or Arutz Sheva - in my experience.

Oh, so very sorry for quoting a source that you don't agree with.

Its a problem all around the world, so get used to it. Newspapers around the world, yes in Israel too as well as the US of A, are putting up fire walls requiring a fee for the privilege of reading the content.

Im sure the Jpost will also follow suit given time, and i'd guess once they do, you will no longer be "inclined" to read it ?

Maybe I should I of quoted Faux news next time, that might be more to your liking ?

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 22):
which can only be fully read by subscribers

Oh, is that my problem...... by a subscription then

As I said, its happening ALL over the world to news publications, they want your money.... get used to it !

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 22):
I'm not going to clash with you and get banned again.

That is entirely your doing, nobody else.

You have already previously posted a thread on "anger management" and how to cope. Did you not learn anything from that ?

Keep control of your emotions and all will be well, not only on a.net but other aspects of your life where "anger" comes into question.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 22):
I'm Jewish, a Zionist, and proud of both.

Well good for you.

Im not Jewish, Im a Anglican and Im proud of it too !!

[Edited 2014-11-18 23:18:56]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Alias1024
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:09 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
So, having said all that, one can only turn the cheek so many times, before you loose your head completely. If you are going to keep beating a dog with a stick, eventually it will bite back......

Is it the dogs fault it bites ?

You tell me !

Palestinians aren't dogs, they're people. What those two murderers did is morally indefensible. Period. There should be no attempt to rationalize or justify murdering four men doing nothing but praying in their house of worship. Rationalizations like this are exactly the type of thinking that leads to more violence on both sides.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 19):
He would not have been murdered if the terrorists didn't murder three innocent youths. This argument is null and void.

Mohammed Abu Khedir's murder is also completely indefensible. There's no justification or rationalization that makes it in any way acceptable. Your argument that Palestinians don't have the right to be upset about his murder because it was in retaliation to three Israeli teens being murdered is frankly disturbing.

They should be mad about it. They should be mad about the Israeli teens being murdered too. Israelis should be mad about both those terrible acts as well. These were innocent kids, killed because of nothing more than their ethnicity. Everyone should be upset by that. What both sides shouldn't do is use that anger to fuel more violence, but instead to clamp down on the extremists on both sides that encourage and carry out these despicable crimes.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
JJJ
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:00 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 24):
Rationalizations like this are exactly the type of thinking that leads to more violence on both sides.

Both sides have the opposite faction already dehumanized.

"Animals", "dogs" aind much worse. That's the kind of language even the common man on the street uses to refer to people from the other sde of the wall, so it's no surprise there isn't much empathy when a group of nutjobs with axes decides it's time to kill a few defenceless old rabbis, or that a father of two with a good job is found hanged inside the bus he was driving and where he received death threats, with evident bruises, but the police rules it as suicide.

Business as usual.
 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:49 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Perhaps the idea of a two state solution should be taken away from Israel (they seem incapable or though, I really don't think they want one, of making a decision anyway) and perhaps the EU/UN could make a determination, it would happen one hell of a lot faster than "negotiating" with a bunch of Bibi's fanatical religious maniacs, who really don't want peace or a two state solution.

Then, give the "new" Palestinian state ALL the support they require, both military, political and financially, just as Israel has enjoyed for decades. Give them voting rights at the UN, intact, give them everything Israel currently enjoys, just to even the score a little.

Problem solved !

Israels pathetic leaders, could then turn around and cry to their constituents, that's its not their fault, its the EU or the UN or whoever for dividing Israel up

lets see how things pan out then?

As much as I like this idea, given the way the US and Europe have marinated themselves in guilt for the last 70 years over their inability to stop the Holocaust, it likely wont happen. I would go a step further and venture a guess that if the request for a recognized Palestinian State were to come before the UN security council, the US would veto it as quickly as the suggestion could be announced. The US would likely argue that creating a Palestinian state does nothing but further inflame an already volatile situation, that the UN has no way and no right to enforce the recognition on an unwilling Israel and that at the end of the day the treatment of the Palestinians is an internal matter between Israel and the Palestinians and that the UN should not get involved.

IMO, I think any movement on a solution for the Palestinians is going to require a Ukrainian style peaceful revolution where the Palestinians effectively storm Jerusalem by the tens or even hundreds of thousands, encamp themselves around the Knesset, and make demands of the Israeli government that could lead to the very death of Israel as a Jewish state. Demands like full civil rights for the Palestinians, full right of return for any Palestinian anywhere in the world who wants to move to Israel/Palestine, maybe even a disbandment of the legislature and a re-establishment process that gives the Palestinians full representation. Another thing that scenario could envision is a rewrite of the Israeli constitution to grant the Palestinians the aforementioned rights. This is to say nothing of demands to dismantle the Jewish settlements in the West Bank, dismantle barrier walls to keep Palestinians out of Israel, and an end to the blockade of gaza.

For Israel it becomes a worst case scenario. Give the Palestinians rights and watch the country they've spent the last 70 plus years building dissolve or respond with force to crush the protests and get a black eye in the western media for opening fire on unarmed civilians who are peacefully protesting for the death of Israel as a Jewish state. It really does become an impossible Gordian knot because no matter what it does, Israel feels that it loses.
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:04 am

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 26):
It really does become an impossible Gordian knot because no matter what it does, Israel feels that it loses.

It is a zero-sum game. And since Israel has hoarded pretty much everything valuable (proper farming land, water rights, infrastructures, etc.) anything the Palestinians get it will be at the expense of Israel.

That's why Israel doesn't want a unified, secular, peaceful Palestinian government. 2014 has been one of the worst years of Palestinian terror, including major mlitary operations in the Gaza strip and the number of killed stands at 37 (these last four people already included, the figure for 2013 was 7). That dillutes very easily on a population numbering in the low millions. Palestinians themselves endure casualties several orders of magnitude higher and the overall population barely feels it.

OTOH, giving up on settlements, water rights, etc. is something Israel in its present form cannot afford to do.

It will take some major compromise to get out of the mud. And there's little will on either side of the wall to do it.
 
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:10 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 22):
But any argument you tried to make on here using Haaretz - is devoid of value. It's a premium value - which can only be fully read by subscribers, and the vast majority of Israel's population disagrees with Haaretz's editorial standpoint from a political point of view. They're more inclined to go with the Jerusalem Post, Army Radio, or Arutz Sheva - in my experience.

Utter nonsense. There is a range of views on Haaretz, even if Levy and others are its more infamously well-known editorial writers. Generally speaking, the contributors to Haaretz are serious people who have Jewish values and futures in mind, and have not succumbed to a pedantic cycle of tit-for-tat that destroys all.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 22):
I'm Jewish, a Zionist, and proud of both.

Jewish, anti-Zionist, and proud of values that mean something. Very disgusted with the take, take, take mentality.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 26):
For Israel it becomes a worst case scenario. Give the Palestinians rights and watch the country they've spent the last 70 plus years building dissolve or respond with force to crush the protests and get a black eye in the western media for opening fire on unarmed civilians who are peacefully protesting for the death of Israel as a Jewish state. It really does become an impossible Gordian knot because no matter what it does, Israel feels that it loses.

Why does it have to come to that though? Why can't the Israeli government choose a righteous path, showing the world leadership in conflict resolution by extending hands in peace, becoming a meaningful part of the lives of everyday Arabs, and showing the world what kind of values Jews have been fighting to preserve for centuries?

I hate to be so cynical, but this almost comes down to an explanation like "that's not what the military-industrial complex wants'.

I miss Ehud Barak.

[Edited 2014-11-19 03:57:56]
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:40 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 22):
I'm Jewish, a Zionist, and proud of both.

Nobody's perfect.  
Being Jewish, i have all respect to that, but what do you see so good about Zionism to be proud off?
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:24 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 10):
They get rocks thrown at them.

So will these people get 20 years for rock throwing or is it just for non jews?
 
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 2:52 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):
Would be a godsend if peace could embrace the region.

Where do you stand on this issue of demolishing the assailants' homes?
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:18 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 31):
Where do you stand on this issue of demolishing the assailants' homes?

Not sure.... I need to learn more about the assailants.
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:36 pm

According to the i, the following was published in the Jerusalem Post;

"The Temple mount has no sanctuary for Muslims, Jews should not only be allowed, but encouraged to visit the site".
 
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:55 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 32):
Not sure.... I need to learn more about the assailants.

From what was posted above, it appears that this isn't an individual assailant-dependent policy. If you're deemed a terrorist by Israel, your home becomes a target for destruction.

As you yearn for peace in the region as the OP, your thoughts on this level of retaliation would be a worthwhile contribution to this thread.
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:26 pm

Quoting zrs70 (Thread starter):

Very tragic, and it appears to be a concentrated terror attack on defenseless civilians, with a bit of suicide by cop thrown in.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):






What on earth?

Quote:Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ordered authorities to demolish the assailants' homes

This is normal procedure in Israel, and has come under attack from the UN and many other human rights organizations.
From the outside it is a highly unfair reaction to punish the families of those that have perpetrated a crime, and there doesn't seem to be much evidence that it actually deters future attacks.

However please remember, that if Hamas is behind this attack, as they have claimed....Then Hamas may have offered to take care of the families of these attackers for carrying out their suicide mission.

Not saying whether it is right or wrong, but at the end of the day, if the family is benefitting from terrorism, how do you take away the incentive of attack ? Why should the families benefit from other family members?

Should the bank accounts of those sending money to Hamas be suspended?
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:31 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
From the outside it is a highly unfair reaction to punish the families of those that have perpetrated a crime, and there doesn't seem to be much evidence that it actually deters future attacks.

Gee, then....

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
However please remember, that if Hamas is behind this attack, as they have claimed....Then Hamas may have offered to take care of the families of these attackers for carrying out their suicide mission.

....now we're back to the same old argument. Since retaliation clearly *doesn't work*, shouldn't Israel then deploy her vast resources to better the situations of Palestinian families beyond what Hamas could ever do? Would that not cut the legs out from under Hamas and any similar organization? That's called fighting smart...
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:40 pm

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 24):
Palestinians aren't dogs, they're people.

I was using it as an analogy, an example of treating fellow human beings like animals. I am aware that the Palestinians aren't dogs, they are people.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 24):
There should be no attempt to rationalize or justify murdering four men doing nothing but praying in their house of worship. Rationalizations like this are exactly the type of thinking that leads to more violence on both sides.

I disagree.

I order to understand why people behave the way they do, you need to understand the reasons behind why/what caused the reaction in the first place.

I'm not sure why you think using such an example will only lead to more of the same, how ?

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 24):
What both sides shouldn't do is use that anger to fuel more violence, but instead to clamp down on the extremists on both sides that encourage and carry out these despicable crimes.

The state of Israel continually uses itself as an example, within the region, and even outside the region, as being the only truly free democratic nation, full of morality and a shinning beacon as to how other nations should behave... Really?

This cannot be allowed to go unchallenged any longer. If you listen to Israel its surrounded by (if you believe the propaganda) murderous barbaric countries, who's only aim is to eradicate Israel and see its destruction......Ummm !

Whats the difference between how Israel is conducting itself towards the "peace processes" with the Palestinians/Gazan's/Hamas and how Israel behaves in the region towards others ?

Many of Israel's military actions are no better then those of so called terrorists organisations IMHO.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 26):
For Israel it becomes a worst case scenario.

I like your idea and I think it has merit. A Ukraine seniaro, with and international peace keeping force watching over things will quickly cause those with other objectives and bought into line. This not only includes Israel, but Parts of Hamas too, what could be fairer in the eyes of Israel. It would take the heat of the political leaders (Israel's) i mean.

Israel is big and ugly enough to brush itself off, pick itself up and get on with things. They (Israeli Jews/citizens) often claim to be of higher intelligence than their Arab brothers, so if this really is the case, they have very little to worry about then wouldn't you think ?

onward and upward !

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 28):
Why does it have to come to that though? Why can't the Israeli government choose a righteous path, showing the world leadership in conflict resolution by extending hands in peace, becoming a meaningful part of the lives of everyday Arabs, and showing the world what kind of values Jews have been fighting to preserve for centuries?

One would have thought too, considering the history surrounding Israel and WHY it was formed, that perhaps, and I say perhaps cautiously, that Israelis would be more willing to understand the plight of less well off neighbours, e.g. Palestinians/Gazan's, but alas, no its not the case, in fact many would argue its the exact opposite., its the Israeli who want to wipe them out....

A case of history repeating itself?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 31):
Where do you stand on this issue of demolishing the assailants' homes?

Good question.

Its a failed and illegal policy, shown not to work by an independent commission. It was halted in 2005 because it was found to ineffective and only pours fuel on an already smouldering fire.....so not a good thing to do really, especially if you want to change peoples behaviour.

But, apparently Bibi in all his wisdom, has now reintroduced this failed policy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/20/wo...who-killed-2-pedestrians.html?_r=0

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 32):
Not sure.... I need to learn more about the assailants.

The trouble is zrs70, its not only the "assailants" who's home is destroyed, but neighbours homes too, who have nothing to do with said issue, well, that is until Israel actually carries it out, then not only have you pissed of the actual family of the target home, but you have dragged in other neighbouring familys too, thereby making the situation a whole lot worse, for everyone concerned.

Dose that sound like an intelligent and effectual thing to do ?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 34):
From what was posted above, it appears that this isn't an individual assailant-dependent policy. If you're deemed a terrorist by Israel, your home becomes a target for destruction.

There have been 675 homes demolished between 2000 and 2005. And in the last few months, another 6 have gone.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
From the outside it is a highly unfair reaction to punish the families of those that have perpetrated a crime, and there doesn't seem to be much evidence that it actually deters future attacks.

As has been shown in the above link, its a counterproductive policy and has failed.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
Then Hamas may have offered to take care of the families of these attackers for carrying out their suicide mission.

I believe this is sometimes the case, at least if you listen to what comes out of Israeli media unit headed by Mark Regev and Bibi's personal spokesman on all matters.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
Not saying whether it is right or wrong, but at the end of the day, if the family is benefitting from terrorism, how do you take away the incentive of attack ? Why should the families benefit from other family members?

By giving them (Palestinians/Gazan's/Hamas) something better to long for, some hope for the future of having their own country/state, equal rights across the board. Make them prosperous, make them independent.......... that would be a good start.People who enjoy all that, generally don't want to go out and kill other just for the sake of it.

If you give people something to strive for, to hope for, thats the way to get the best out of people, not by treating as subhumans etc etc.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
Should the bank accounts of those sending money to Hamas be suspended?

Tough one....Complex !

Remember, one mans terrorist, is another mans freedom fighter.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 36):
That's called fighting smart...

And that's exactly what I mean.... Israel is capable of this, Israel understands this.....

But yet, Israel or this in command, will not have a bar of it....Dose Israel really want to fall out with the rest of the civilised world on how this should be handled.

Oh Why ???????
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:33 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 36):
shouldn't Israel then deploy her vast resources to better the situations of Palestinian families beyond what Hamas could ever do? Would that not cut the legs out from under Hamas and any similar organization? That's called fighting smart...

Ahh but the same could be said from the side of Hamas..... why not condemn the terrorist actions as an affront to all humanity in order to move forward in the best interests of all Palestinians ? It is a horribly crappy situation in the middle east. Both sides have their hardliners, moderates, innocents, and "on't give a ......" factions. However the actions on both sides are being driven by hardliners that are forcing some seriously hard chocies on both sides. Hamas is sitting back and cheering on and endorsing the terror attack, which will only cement Israel's decision to treat this as a terrorist attack and retaliate. On the Israeli side, they are tossing out due process in order to placate those that believe their very survival is threatened by terrorists. Unfortunately this causes a circular viscous cycle.

We continue the ping pong game.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
As has been shown in the above link, its a counterproductive policy and has failed.

Possibly, but your own numbers show that it has had some effect on the cycle recently.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
I believe this is sometimes the case, at least if you listen to what comes out of Israeli media unit headed by Mark Regev and Bibi's personal spokesman on all matters.

I think it is true in many cases.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
By giving them (Palestinians/Gazan's/Hamas) something better to long for, some hope for the future of having their own country/state, equal rights across the board. Make them prosperous, make them independent.......... that would be a good start.People who enjoy all that, generally don't want to go out and kill other just for the sake of it.

If you give people something to strive for, to hope for, thats the way to get the best out of people, not by treating as subhumans etc etc.

The Palestinians need to act better to be treated better. Their current situation is disheartening, , but they need to stop voting for Hamas, digging tunnels, endorsing terrorists ,and allowing rockets to be fired from their territory.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:57 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 38):
Ahh but the same could be said from the side of Hamas..... why not condemn the terrorist actions as an affront to all humanity in order to move forward in the best interests of all Palestinians ?
Quoting casinterest (Reply 38):
The Palestinians need to act better to be treated better. Their current situation is disheartening, , but they need to stop voting for Hamas, digging tunnels, endorsing terrorists ,and allowing rockets to be fired from their territory.

Most Palestinians haven't voted for Hamas. Most Palestinians don't live in the Gaza strip.

The Palestinian legally recognized government doesn't contain a single Hamas member and routinely condemns such actions. As recently as 2 weeks ago they've been on the receiving end of bombs from Hamas.
 
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:17 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 39):
Most Palestinians haven't voted for Hamas. Most Palestinians don't live in the Gaza strip

I never said anything about most.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 39):
The Palestinian legally recognized government doesn't contain a single Hamas member and routinely condemns such actions. As recently as 2 weeks ago they've been on the receiving end of bombs from Hamas.

No, but the Palestinian "Legally" recognized government still signs agreements with and negotiates with Hamas. That kind of legitimacy is what makes Hamas all the more dangerous.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:18 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 38):

The Palestinians need to act better to be treated better.

During the dispute leading to the UN Partition proposal many Palestinians tried to enter into agreements with the local kibbutzim and representatives of the Zionist movement, including the Hagana, Irgun and Lehi (aka Stern Gang). In most, if not all cases, the trust that Palestinians placed in those they negotiated with was misplaced. The basic premise of political Zionism was that the land should be cleared, the population transferred.

At different times, different language was used as is evident from reading the diaries of Ben-Gurion and other documents from the time, but the aim was always that Palestine would be Jewish and the present population should be "encouraged" to leave. Plan Dalet, which I referred to above, was put into operation before the British Mandate was terminated and the State of Israel was proclaimed. Between its inception and the first reluctant, poorly orgainised and half-hearted intervention of Arab States, more than 200, 000 Palestinians had been expelled from their lands, more than 200 villages had been either occupied or destroyed and a few thousand Palestinians had been killed, either in the original assaults on villages or in the subsequent rounding up and execution of men deemed to be hostile.

Even when the UN negotiated the two truces to halt fighting between the armies of Israel and the Arab states, the ethnic cleansing continued, renamed "police operations." These cleansings were contrary to the UN resolution that stated that Jews in the future Arab state would citizens of that state and Arabs in the future Jewish state would be citizens of that state. Given the demographics, the Zionist movement was orepared to adopt the clauses that established a Jewish state but they rejected the idea that a large non-Jewish population should be allowed to remain, let alone become citizens. This is not surprising because it was fully consistent with earlier statements by the likes of Chaim Weizmann and others prominent in the Zionist movement who openly advocated the removal of the existing popoulation of Palestine. At least Weizmann described the people as "rocks" in contrast to the perjorative terms usually applied.

This may appear to be ancient history but it is within living memory. Following the 1967 war that saw the Jordanians expelled from the West Bank, villages that had survived cleansing in 1947-1948 fell victim. Today, the erection of the so-called security perimeter on Palestinian land has seen the expulsion of a further 200, 000 people from their homes and the splitting of Palestinian communities. This is in addition to the ongoing settlement that allows Jewish communities what Netanyahu described as "living space" while preventing Palestinian villages the ability to expand naturally.

The reality on the ground, a phrase often used by Netanyahu, is that the Palestinians have little room for manouvre and that every concession they make is recognised as a weakness that demands further concessions. This has been true since the 1940s when Israeli intelligence reports showed that the Palestinians presented no real threat, were leaderless and poorly organised and largely adopted a wait and see policy. Back then, the Zionist movement took full advantage of that weakness and the State of Israel continues to do so today, all the time using its PR to present Israel as facing a second holocaust and an existential threat.

Yet we see here the constant suggestion that if the Palestinians behave better, they will be treated better. The history suggests otherwise for the simple reason that Israel insists, as it always has, that it is not the state of all its citizens but a Jewish state. Added to the prevailing view that Judea and Samaria are the heart lands of the Land of Israel this suggests that there is no room for a significant non-Jewish minority, let alone majority, enjoying equal rights before the law, no matter how "well behaved" they are.
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:39 pm

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 41):
Yet we see here the constant suggestion that if the Palestinians behave better, they will be treated better. The history suggests otherwise for the simple reason that Israel insists, as it always has, that it is not the state of all its citizens but a Jewish state. Added to the prevailing view that Judea and Samaria are the heart lands of the Land of Israel this suggests that there is no room for a significant non-Jewish minority, let alone majority, enjoying equal rights before the law, no matter how "well behaved" they are.

History also suggests that those that resort to terrorism are not mourned when they are wiped out.

Your long presentation is a nice wrapped up history lesson of the "don't give a ...." and moderates allowing things to happen while the hardliners remain entrenched.

Israel's Zionist position looks a lot more stupid than it already is, when there are no attacks. And the UN and the rest of the wold can bring a lot more pressure onto Israel were the moderates and other factions that want peace and growth in Palestine to stand up to their own internal problems in order to present a better solution going forward to the rest of the world. For right now, Gaza and the Palestinians themselves are presenting themselves as the little guy down the street that practices antagonism a lot better than communication., and no one wants to do much for them.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:42 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 42):

Actually, the history of terrorism is not that people don't mourn but that it depends on whether you are on the winning side. People like Ben-Gurion, Begin, Rabin all resorted to terrorism and became recognised as heroes and statesmen and are today celebrated. They were on the winning side. Others, who were on the losing side, were dismissed and portrayed as murderers driven by hatred. It is the victors who generally write history, although the vanquished don't forget.

The Palestinians have tried to argue their point over several decades, both before and after the creation of Israel. From the first Palestine National Congress in 1919, which rejected the Balfour Declaration and demanded self determination based on one man, one vote to the Filastin Istiqlal in 1932 and later, the question is why countries like Britain were more prepared to listen to the Zionist movement at a time that Jews in Palestine were a small minority? Why was it that the League of Nations was oblivious to the claims of the indigenous population and adopted, almost word for word, a Mandate drafted by the British? Why was it that subsequently the UN continued to support the rights of a largely immigrant minority against the express opposition of the majority? Why was it that the UN largely looked the other way during the events described?

It wasn't for want of Palestinians trying to "communicate". The sad reality is that no-one ever seriously listened, let alone "wanted to do much for them." All the players had their own objectives and pursued their self interests. In the eyes of the Zionist movement, the British, and the UN the Palestinians were of secondary importance then as they continue to be now. Behaving well has very little to do with it.

[Edited 2014-11-20 08:53:45]
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:54 pm

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 43):
It wasn't for want of Palestinians trying to "communicate". The sad reality is that no-one ever seriously listened, let alone "wanted to do much for them." All the players had their own objectives and persued their self interests. In the eyes of the Zionist movement, the British, and the UN the Palestinians were of secondary importance then as they continue to be now. Behaving well has very little to do with it.

Behaving well has a lot more to do with it. Especially in the eyes of the world. Especially when you are starting from an Oppressed position, It does not help your cause to cause misery for others. People are going to side with the folks they can negotiate and trade with.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:06 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 44):

And yet, as we have seen, despite the misery that was obviously caused to others, the world was and is content to "negotiate and trade" with those who by violence wished to ethnically cleanse an area.

Not only are they willing to negotiate and trade with them, they continue to support them financially and diplomatically. Oh, there may be occasional suggestions that an action may be disproportionate, but that doesn't stop the flow of money or arms. Rights and wrongs have little to do with such decisions. Self-interest and expediency tend to take precedence.

In the meantime, innocent people continue to suffer, be they Arabs or Jews. Realpolitik does not concern itself with ordinary human beings.
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:31 pm

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 41):
Yet we see here the constant suggestion that if the Palestinians behave better, they will be treated better. The history suggests otherwise for the simple reason that Israel insists, as it always has, that it is not the state of all its citizens but a Jewish state

I agree that "behaving well" often translates as "in possession of very fine weaponry."

This is about technology, it has nothing to do with behavior at all. Israel thinks that their alliance with high-tech US means they can behave badly. Palestine thinks their technological inferiority gives them the right to behave badly. And they're both right.

The way to peace in that region is military parity. Otherwise it will never happen.
 
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:07 pm

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 45):
And yet, as we have seen, despite the misery that was obviously caused to others, the world was and is content to "negotiate and trade" with those who by violence wished to ethnically cleanse an area.

That is why there are embargo's on Gaza. There are no embargos on Israel, because in this fight Gaza and the Palestinians are , and continue to , behave poorly.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 46):

The way to peace in that region is military parity. Otherwise it will never happen.

Military parity in that region won't bring anything but total annihilation.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:58 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
I was using it as an analogy, an example of treating fellow human beings like animals. I am aware that the Palestinians aren't dogs, they are people.

I'm aware you were using it as analogy, however I felt it was a very flawed analogy. Dogs don't have the cognitive ability to know right from wrong. Palestinians do.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
I order to understand why people behave the way they do, you need to understand the reasons behind why/what caused the reaction in the first place.

You went beyond trying to understand motivations and actually tried to justify this disgusting attack.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
Is it the dogs fault it bites ?

You tell me !

See what I mean?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 37):
This cannot be allowed to go unchallenged any longer. If you listen to Israel its surrounded by (if you believe the propaganda) murderous barbaric countries, who's only aim is to eradicate Israel and see its destruction......Ummm !

Surrounded? No. I don't think Israel has much concern Jordan, Egypt, and some others in the region. However Hamas has been very upfront in the fact that their aim is the eradication and destruction of Israel. The Israeli's aren't completely paranoid.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 36):
....now we're back to the same old argument. Since retaliation clearly *doesn't work*, shouldn't Israel then deploy her vast resources to better the situations of Palestinian families beyond what Hamas could ever do? Would that not cut the legs out from under Hamas and any similar organization? That's called fighting smart...

Exactly correct.

Destroying the homes of the relatives of terrorists is the exact wrong way for Israel to fight terrorism. Building more settlements in the West Bank is can only inflame tensions. Efforts to give legal weight to a declaration of Israel as a Jewish state shows total disregard for all religious minorities, not just Muslims, in stark contrast to the values Israel says they promote. It's a shame the hard liners have such a grip over Netanyahu and his government.

Of course none of this excuses Hamas using the aid provided by the international community to build rockets and tunnels to attack Israel. They continue to completely neglect the needs of Gazans, choosing a path that can only lead to pain and suffering for everyone in Gaza.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 28):
I miss Ehud Barak.

This x 1,000
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Four Israelis Killed In Jerusalem Synagogue Terror

Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:14 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 48):
Dogs don't have the cognitive ability to know right from wrong.

That's your opinion and thats fine, however, I beg to differ.

Dogs know very well, right from wrong, and the have lots of ability to learn somethings very quickly, even compared to humans

Ever heard of assistance dogs or for that matter guide dogs, These are highly trained animals, that are responsible for safe guarding peoples lives, every day of the week. And they do it very well.

My own dog is just a mongrel mut, nothing special, so enjoys none of the above, but he is the most gentle and kind personality imaginable, he certainly has the cognitive ability to have learnt that from the love care he's received from myself and the family over the years, and he's reciprocated all that back to us as a loyal loving member of our family.

If we had mistreated the dog, the story would be very different.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 48):
Palestinians do.

Not always.

What if they have learnt nothing but hate, revenge and killing. Successive generations of Palestinians have been brought up like this.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 48):
See what I mean?

No, sorry I don't.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 48):
The Israeli's aren't completely paranoid.

Well, people could be forgiven for thinking otherwise.The heavy handed reaction by Israel during the last round of military action against Gazan's, was one such example, they put on a good show sometimes. The fire power used and the scope of bombardments....Anyone would have though Israel was about to be attacked by the entire world.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 48):
It's a shame the hard liners have such a grip over Netanyahu and his government.

I reckon this is a really tied old argument. Nothing more then an excuse.

How long has Netanyahu been in office this time, 5/6 years, and he's was previously PM for 4 years 1996-1999. Thats quite some record to be proud of wouldn't you say ?

So obviously its not just the hard liners giving him support, but a significant part of Israel's population have voted him in as PM and on two separate occasions.

The guys popular, without question.

They must think he has something to offer them wouldn't you agree, otherwise why elect him, and twice ?

But more importantly, what dose this say about the Israeli people themselves, exactly just how "committed" are they to future peace with the Palestinians ??????

How else can you intemperate that ?

On the face of it, not very.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 38):
Their current situation is disheartening,

Hopefully, this will change soon. European countries are now finally deciding to support Palestine in the bid for statehood, the latest was Spain. They join Britain Sweeden, Ireland and soon France. This is gathering momentum, the longer Israel acts in such a devilish way towards Palestine/Gaza, the faster it will get.

Who's next ?
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”

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