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itsjustme
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Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 4:32 am

We can expect a ruling from the grand jury in the not too distant future regarding the shooting/slaying of Michael Brown by Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson. The jury has several options ranging from finding no probable cause to charge the officer to charging him with first degree murder. There is strong speculation the finding will be no probable cause to charge him. My question to you is, what will the jury find?

I'll throw in my 2 cents: I've tried very hard to maintain a non-bias opinion since the shooting occurred some three and a half months ago. I am a white police officer who has worked in cities with a 90% black population as well as those with a 90% white population. During my tenure as a police officer, I've been involved in roughly a dozen situations where I had to make a split second, "shoot-don't-shoot" decision. Thankfully, thus far each decision has been correct which is why I'm still alive and able to post messages on Airliners dot net. I strongly believe the jury should come back with a finding of no probable cause to charge officer Wilson. I haven't read anything to warrant any charges being levied against the officer. My fear, however is, the officer will be used as a scape goat to avoid an L.A./Rodney King type situation and he will be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. A finding of this nature will appease the majority of those who want to see Wilson hung by his boot straps and should squelch a majority of the anticipated rioting should he not be charged with murder.

What say you?
 
FlightShadow
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:35 am

I agree with you--couldn't have said it any better.

Quoting itsjustme (Thread starter):
My fear, however is, the officer will be used as a scape goat

This is my fear as well.

Thoughts and prayers to residents, business owners, law enforcement and law enforcement families in Ferguson, the St Louis area, and other metro areas that may ignite over the ruling. May cooler heads prevail.

I hope and trust the grand jury will do their job.

And, itsjustme, thank you for what you do. SoCal isn't the easiest place in the world to be a police officer.
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seb146
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:05 am

The officer will be found completely innocent, people in Ferguson (and around the country) will riot. Those minorities will be called "uppity" and told to get back in their place because justice was served. Another "good ole boy" will be saved.
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11Bravo
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:15 am

Quoting itsjustme (Thread starter):
I strongly believe the jury should come back with a finding of no probable cause to charge officer Wilson.

How can you arrive at that conclusion without having access to the evidence in this case? I too work in law enforcement, but the publically available evidence I've seen is full of contradictory and inconclusive information. Did officer Wilson act in good faith within the use of force rules set forth in FPD policy and Missouri law? I don't know.
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AR385
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:28 am

First of all I´d like someone to explain to me what a Grand Jury is:

1) I have heard that a Grand Jury receives a lot more info. than will be available in the actual trial.
2) I have the idea that the Grand Jury decides wether the person should go to trial and tells the DA to go ahead.
3) But then I have the idea that in some states there is no Grand Jury and then the DA directly decides.

So I am really confused about what exactly is a Grand Jury. Thanks to whomever gives me a quick lesson.

Dear itsjustme,

Since you are a police officer and are in the actual, real trenches every day, is kind of hard to give an opinion without sounding like telling you how to do your job. I respect what you do and it must be a very difficult job.

My experience as a person who lived in the US for many years in a few cities is that most law enforcement personnel I dealt with were courteous and professional. But I also encountered a few that were rude, angry and stereotyped the people they had encounters with. It happened to me once due to my accent, since I really do not look hispanic at all.

Having said that, the odds are the Officer Wilson probably will not be charged and once the fog clears, it will be shown he reacted correctly and accordingly to the situation he faced.

I hope we do not have a repeat of the LA riots.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:47 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 4):
First of all I´d like someone to explain to me what a Grand Jury is:

Basically, a grand jury decides whether there is sufficient evidence that a) a crime has been committed, and b) the individual(s) involved comitted the crime.

The grand jury typically receives testimony only from the prosecution, though they can subpeona just about anyone they feel can provide information. They are considered an investigatory body and are made up of citizens, jusy as is a trial jury.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 4):
I hope we do not have a repeat of the LA riots

I think that some level of violent disturbance is a foregone conclusion. The protestors demanded that Wilson be brought before the grand jury. It appears they plan to demonstrate regardless what the grand jury returns. But, they don't want due process, they want Wilson imprisoned and, quite possibly, dead.

As for whether or not Wilson should or should not be indicted and then charged: I've no clue. Too much contradictory information. It seems there is always some piece of "new" information being released.

I've basically ignored the whole thing.

[Edited 2014-11-20 00:49:24]
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blueflyer
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:47 am

I think there is too much contradictory evidence to make an informed decision, at least as bystanders. I try to separate officer Wilson from his employment because, while I can't make up my mind on him individually, I have lost trust in the Ferguson police department and the local government. They are at best inept and incompetent, and at worse liars and fabricators. Their offenses range from policing protests dressed to repel an attack from ISIL to getting a no-fly zone declared over the city under false pretense in the hope of ending press coverage, to claiming that officer Wilson was severely hurt and swollen in the head due to his encounter with Michael Brown. Just a few days ago, a video was released showing officer Wilson back at police headquarters shortly after the shooting and looking not swollen, or even hurt, at all. And I could go on.

None of this should reflect negatively on officer Wilson since none of it is his doing, but that is the people he worked with and the environment he operated in...

I hope the Grand Jury's decision, whatever it may be, will be received peacefully, but I may be too optimistic. A preemptive declaration of a state of emergency certainly didn't help though. It's almost as if the governor was inviting violence.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
They are considered an investigatory body and are made up of citizens, jusy as is a trial jury.

A key difference however is that members of the Grand Jury can question just about anyone present in the room about anything they want, unlike trial jurors who are not allowed to speak in the courtroom, much less question witnesses or lawyers and prosecutors.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:09 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 2):

The officer will be found completely innocent

That is not what a jury finds in a criminal case and especially not what is determined in a grand jury case. Way off the mark

Quoting seb146 (Reply 2):
Another "good ole boy" will be saved.

Seb, I agree there is racial problems in our justice system, but seriously, you are determining he is guilty of being a "good ole boy" and killing somebody in cold blood before the grand jury gives their verdict?

Talk about shooting at the hip.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:45 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
Seb, I agree there is racial problems in our justice system, but seriously, you are determining he is guilty of being a "good ole boy" and killing somebody in cold blood before the grand jury gives their verdict?

That's because there is a certain element in the country, no, the world, that has already determined that Wilson is guilty.

Anyway, I don't think a Grand Jury's decision is called a verdict; I think they either return a "no bill" or a "true bill".
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
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casinterest
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:16 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Thread starter):
What say you?

This case is complex, and there are a lot of emotions running. I wouldn't want to be on this jury, as I have a bit of a mixed feel on this as there is a real story in there, and I think that the incident at the convenience store is a bit telling of Michael Brown's demeanor at the time of the interaction with Officer Wilson, in that he didn't want to be stopped by anyone.

The timeline according to wiki of the event is below. There are many more details on the Wikipedia page ,some of them are seemingly corroborated and contradicted throughout. I will let you read and decide.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown
"
Shooting

At 11:51 a.m. on August 9, 2014, a convenience store security camera captured video of Brown taking a $48 box of cigars.[26] A police dispatcher reported a "stealing in progress" at 11:53, and at 11:57 dispatch said the suspect was wearing a red Cardinals hat, a white T-shirt, yellow socks, and khaki shorts, and was accompanied by another man. At noon, Wilson radioed to ask other officers searching for the thieves if they needed him and was told by dispatch that the suspects had disappeared.[27]

At 12:01 p.m., Wilson drove up to Brown and Johnson in the middle of Canfield Drive and ordered them to move off the street and onto the sidewalk. Wilson continued driving past the two men, but then backed up and stopped close to them,[13][28][29][30][31] reportedly after realizing that Brown matched the description of the robbery suspect. Dispatch recordings indicate that Wilson called for backup at 12:02, saying "[Unit] 21. Put me on Canfield with two. And send me another car."[27]

A struggle then took place between Brown and Wilson through the window of the police SUV, a Chevrolet Tahoe.[32] Wilson's gun was fired twice during the struggle, with one bullet hitting Brown's arm while it was inside the vehicle.[32] Brown and Johnson fled and Johnson hid behind a car.[33] Wilson got out of the vehicle and pursued Brown. At some point, Wilson fired his gun again, with at least six shots striking Brown in the front,[13] fatally wounding him. Brown was unarmed.[32][34]

Less than 90 seconds passed from the time Wilson encountered Brown to the time of Brown's death.[3][35]

"


I think the Jury will find charges for Officer Wilson. I do think that their will be riots, as this whole fiasco has been media driven from day one, with some very bad missteps taken by the Ferguson PD.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:33 pm

I just want this to be over already. Tensions are high (not in the sense that a civil unrest could erupt at any time) and I've been avoiding St. Louis for quite some time.

Apparently, many places have been targeted for protests (why would anyone target Boeing is beyond me).

Regarding the case: I have little information to make an informed decision and it's intentional. I don't want to be involved in cases like that. However, I do have to wonder: if it had been a black police officer shooting an unarmed white teenager, how would people be reacting?
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falstaff
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:38 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 9):
I think the Jury will find charges for Officer Wilson. I do think that their will be riots, as this whole fiasco has been media driven from day one, with some very bad missteps taken by the Ferguson PD.

I spend most of my summers in St. Louis and was there when this incident happened. In the hours after the shooting, before it became a national story, the local media was broadcasting the account from Michael Brown's accomplice as fact. That is where the "hands up don't shoot" thing came from. In the local media's rush to get the story out there they put out many untruths as fact and people grabbed on to it.

While the riots and protests were going on I headed up the Ferguson Brewery, to give them my support and to drink their great beer, I found that section of town looking fantastic and the bar was busier than it usually was for the middle of the afternoon. The media did a great job convincing the public that all of Ferguson was burning, but that simply wasn't the case.

Immediately after the incident many people (mostly black activists) were on TV asking people to cite one case were a cop shot unarmed white youth. Nobody could do it even in St. Louis, which I found odd because back in 2007 a police officer shot and unarmed white youth, through the back window of his truck. This was also near St. Louis and oddly enough the victim's name was Michael Brown.


I always wondered why this case got so big to begin with and a far more heart tugging case in Detroit was largely ignored. The Detroit case involved a white policeman who accidently shot a 6 year old black girl in her home, while conducting a police raid and the filming for a reality TV show. The case has gone to trial twice with a hung jury both times.

Michael Brown was a very polarizing character. He was a thug, or at least a wanna' be thug. Some of this amateur rap recordings, played on St. Louis media, and his actions at the store, shortly before he was killed, show that.

A six year old girl, sleeping on a couch, is a very sympatric character that very few people, from any walk of life, could find fault with. Reality TV involving the police has been controversial for three decades now, so you could argue that the police were going over the top for the film crew. The girl's mother and grandmother were harboring a murderer (who has since been convicted of killing a 14 year old, who looked that him funny). People could easily find fault with the parent, but not the girl herself.

The only real difference is that Michael Brown had a friend who told the media that he was shot in the back from twenty plus feet away. That lie was broadcast everywhere and two autopsies proved that he was shot in the front, but the fact remains that the lie was put out there and for a lot of people, particularly those on the far left, those who dislike authority, or those who dislike the police that lie became a fact and no amount of information will change those "facts"
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casinterest
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:14 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 9):


I think the Jury will find charges for Officer Wilson. I do think that their will be riots, as this whole fiasco has been media driven from day one, with some very bad missteps taken by the Ferguson PD.

Oops,
I meant No Charges....
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
Okie
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:44 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 9):
I do think that their will be riots, as this whole fiasco has been media driven from day one, with some very bad missteps taken by the Ferguson PD.

Agreed.
The media has gotten religion, they are praying for riots the best I can tell.

Interesting that there is calls for more transparency from the Ferguson PD and every time they release some tidbit then the baiters get enraged.

Okie
 
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falstaff
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 5:50 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 13):
Interesting that there is calls for more transparency from the Ferguson PD and every time they release some tidbit then the baiters get enraged.

Yes, many of the times something has been released it has make Michael Brown not look like a gentle giant or sweet child that many want to believe. The baiters say that it is just demonizing the victim; you can't win with groups with anti establishment groups.

Like Travon Martin, the media has done a good job using old photos of Michael Brown, to make him look like an innocent kid. A lot of things can change about a person between 14 and 18. I am a high school teacher and have seen kids go from great 14 year olds to being rapists, junkies, and murderers by the time they are 18. I have seen young people who at fourteen who are nothing but trouble and become great young men by the time they are 18. During the ages of 14 to 22 a person really changes. Back When Travon was killed I recall people in these forums saying that how could a full grown man be afraid of a 16 year old. I have heard people say how could a policemen be afraid of an 18 year old. I am a big guy, but there I have had many students who are bigger and stronger than me, most are not, but some are. Over the years I have had some students who have committed some terrible crimes, before they were 20.
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seb146
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 6:55 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 3):
How can you arrive at that conclusion without having access to the evidence in this case? I too work in law enforcement, but the publically available evidence I've seen is full of contradictory and inconclusive information. Did officer Wilson act in good faith within the use of force rules set forth in FPD policy and Missouri law? I don't know.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
you are determining he is guilty of being a "good ole boy" and killing somebody in cold blood before the grand jury gives their verdict?

How many cases of officer involved shootings have there been in the past year where it was clearly the officer just shooting and they get away with it? Too many. This will be yet another one.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 9):
eportedly after realizing that Brown matched the description of the robbery suspect.

How many guns were found on Brown? How many cheap cigars were found on Brown? At least you did not perpetuate the lie that the store owner called 911...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/0...-Called-Cops-To-Report-Cigar-Theft

Here is another lie the media perpetuates to make the officer look good:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/1...ust-won-t-go-away?detail=facebook#

BTW, if people don't like my links, Google your own.
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casinterest
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:14 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
How many guns were found on Brown? How many cheap cigars were found on Brown? At least you did not perpetuate the lie that the store owner called 911...

How many guns were found on Trevon? it doesn't matter if you assault a cop and the witnesses don't back you up, and the only one backing you up is the other guy with you.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
At least you did not perpetuate the lie that the store owner called 911...

Your attitude here is exactly why I expect riots.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain
 
itsjustme
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:03 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 11):
The Detroit case involved a white policeman who accidently shot a 6 year old black girl in her home, while conducting a police raid and the filming for a reality TV show. The case has gone to trial twice with a hung jury both times.

Michael Brown was a very polarizing character. He was a thug, or at least a wanna' be thug. Some of this amateur rap recordings, played on St. Louis media, and his actions at the store, shortly before he was killed, show that.

A six year old girl, sleeping on a couch, is a very sympatric character that very few people, from any walk of life, could find fault with. Reality TV involving the police has been controversial for three decades now, so you could argue that the police were going over the top for the film crew. The girl's mother and grandmother were harboring a murderer (who has since been convicted of killing a 14 year old, who looked that him funny). People could easily find fault with the parent, but not the girl herself.

At the risk of briefly straying off topic for a moment, let me say I am very familiar with this case and you omitted a couple of very important facts. Not only were there two mistrials declared, but after the prosecution's key witness, the grandmother of the 7 year old girl, kept changing her testimony about what occurred, the judge dismissed the most serious of charges against the officer- "involuntary manslaughter". During one of her more controversial court appearances, the grandmother testified she saw the officer purposely place his weapon against the side of her granddaughter's head and pull the trigger, execution style (forensic evidence proved otherwise, however). The officer contended that after entering the home, the grandmother grabbed his weapon causing it to discharge which resulted in the shooting of the 7 year old girl. On December 12th the prosecutor's office will announce if they plan to try the officer a third time.

Back on topic: I agree with the posters who have said they just want a decision to be made. Unfortunately, I think that, regardless of what the grand jury finds, there will be violence. Either violence in protest of the decision or violence in celebration of the decision.
 
itsjustme
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:18 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
How many guns were found on Brown? How many cheap cigars were found on Brown? At least you did not perpetuate the lie that the store owner called 911...

You're grasping at straws. It is fact that a 9-1-1 call was made reporting a robbery and assault at the Ferguson market. Further, video taken by the store's surveillance system clearly shows Michael Brown committing the crimes. But the one fact that makes your observations moot is, Brown's actions prior to confronting the Ferguson officer weren't the cause of his death.
 
Ken777
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:38 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
I think that some level of violent disturbance is a foregone conclusion.

I believe that there are agitators who are hoping for violence. Same with he talking heads who say Michael Brown was "executed" or "murdered".

I wonder how different things would have been if Michael Brown was white and Officer Wilson was Black. Even with the same set of circumstances?

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 6):
They are at best inept and incompetent, and at worse liars and fabricators. Their offenses range from policing protests dressed to repel an attack from ISIL

I read that it was actually outside police officers who were the worst part of the problem. That sniper riding on an armored car scanning the crowd with his scope was as bad as it gets. The guy should be pulled from all jobs allowing a gun and turned into a Meter Maid.

Quoting okie (Reply 13):
The media has gotten religion, they are praying for riots the best I can tell.

Are some praying or paying for more riots? There is a real need for the media to walk away from Ferguson before the Grand Jury decision is announced. There is also a need to ensure that the KKK is not allowed anywhere near Ferguson as one rumor has indicated.

As for the Grand Jury decision, I believe that Officer Wilson will not be indicted. Major elements against an indictment would be the video where he not only stole some cigars but also put up some major intimidation when someone challenged him. He's a big guy and he knew it - intimidation appeared to have come easily for him. Toss in the pot inches system and I can see him trying to get it on with the cop.

The second element for Officer Wilson is that there are witnesses that support his statements. It started looking like the initial witnesses were all at odds with the official statements (which would have been a big problem) and these additional witnesses toss it up into the air, which supports Officer Wilson.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:08 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 17):
Either violence in protest of the decision or violence in celebration of the decision.

The sooner it happens, the sooner it can be put behind us, controlled, and eventually forgotten.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
victrola
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:16 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 9):
.[33] Wilson got out of the vehicle and pursued Brown. At some point, Wilson fired his gun again, with at least six shots striking Brown in the front,[13] fatally wounding him

The question is is this true or not??????
 
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falstaff
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:39 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
There is also a need to ensure that the KKK is not allowed anywhere near Ferguson as one rumor has indicated.

I don't think they are anymore dangerous than the "New Black Panthers". I haven't heard any direct threats from the KKK against any individual. The real Klan is from Harrison, Arkansas, the rest have just coopted the name, just like the "new Black Panthers". I met Bobby Seale twenty years ago and he spoke about that back in the 1960s and 70s there were groups calling themselves Black Panthers that had no affiliation with his group.

Is the KKK even a threat to anyone. I hear some black leaders talk about lynching and the threat of the KKK, but when was the last time anything ever happened? The KKK is not a trademarked name and any group of people could call themselves KKK members. I occasionally see some sort of KKK graffiti sprawled on the wall of a men's room, but I mostly chalk that up to people who want to be provocative, much the same way as when I saw a bunch of 1st and 2nd graders at the St. Louis zoo throwing up gang signs.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
I wonder how different things would have been if Michael Brown was white and Officer Wilson was Black. Even with the same set of circumstances?

It would have been a blurb on the local news one night, just as if it had been Michael Brown being shot by another young black man.

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 17):
Not only were there two mistrials declared, but after the prosecution's key witness, the grandmother of the 7 year old girl, kept changing her testimony about what occurred, the judge dismissed the most serious of charges against the officer- "involuntary manslaughter". During one of her more controversial court appearances, the grandmother testified she saw the officer purposely place his weapon against the side of her granddaughter's head and pull the trigger, execution style (forensic evidence proved otherwise, however). The officer contended that after entering the home, the grandmother grabbed his weapon causing it to discharge which resulted in the shooting of the 7 year old girl. On December 12th the prosecutor's office will announce if they plan to try the officer a third time.

I forgot about that part, but that is even more of a reason why this case should have had more grip than Michael Brown. Why did people not believe the grandmother when she said the officer put a gun to her grand daughter's head? There was forensic evidence proving other wise and people chose to believe the evidence. For some reason the false story of Michael Brown being shot in the back from 20 feet away is believed by many and two autopsies showed he was shot in the front? Both a grandmother and a felon, who had warrants around Missouri, both tell a lie. The grandmother is refuted and nothing happens, the felon is refuted and all hell breaks loose.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
I read that it was actually outside police officers who were the worst part of the problem. That sniper riding on an armored car scanning the crowd with his scope was as bad as it gets. The guy should be pulled from all jobs allowing a gun and turned into a Meter Maid.

I don't think they needed to be having anyone openly being a sniper, but the guns needed to be in sight and ready to go. The local news showed a fair number of security camera recordings from looted/burned stores and there were plenty of guns in the crowd. There was also footage of shooting into the air and there were some gang related shootings that happened during the rioting. That stuff was reported in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.
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itsjustme
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:20 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
That sniper riding on an armored car scanning the crowd with his scope was as bad as it gets.

It's quite possible the officer was using his scope to magnify the crowd and scan for potential threats. That's a fairly common practice. Although, I can appreciate how a SWAT officer "aiming" his weapon at a crowd while looking through the scope could be perceived as something completely different to an untrained eye.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 22):
Why did people not believe the grandmother when she said the officer put a gun to her grand daughter's head?

You really had to witness the grandmother to appreciate how she was obviously skewing her testimony to try and paint the officer as a coldblooded murderer. I'm surprised they didn't file perjury charges on her. Even staunch cop haters were referring to her as a joke. She was technically a witness for the prosecution but she succeeded in completely destroying their case. There are YouTube videos of her contradicting herself. Just Google "Mertilla Jones Testimony". Also, unlike Officer Wilson, the Detroit officer was interviewed on local news stations and made a very compelling case for himself. And, like Wilson he had a fairly clear history with the department and was known for being extremely charismatic and intelligent.

If the GJ does find cause to charge the officer, I hope it's due to legitimate, irrefutable evidence and not simply to try and avoid, what's the politically correct term? Oh yeah, to avoid civil unrest.
 
Ken777
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:43 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 22):
I don't think they are anymore dangerous than the "New Black Panthers"

I think they have the potential to be far more dangerous if they get near the demonstrators in Ferguson. It will be explosive if they (or anyone else) showed up to support Officer Wilson. I believe that the local African Americans need the opportunity to demonstrate if there is no indictment. Any outside influence (black or white) can easily be a catalyst for violence.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 22):
I don't think they needed to be having anyone openly being a sniper, but the guns needed to be in sight and ready to go.

I keep remembering the TV coverage of General Russel Honore taking command after Katrina when he walked outside and started yelling at shoulders to aim their guns to the ground. They may have need to have guns available but they sure as hell didn't need to point them to citizens.

That standard was totally disregarded in Ferguson and, I believe, is one of the main reasons why things got so far out of hand. Lots of "cops" in that mess that need to be Meter Maids or lower.
 
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seb146
Posts: 23600
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:10 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 22):
I hear some black leaders talk about lynching and the threat of the KKK, but when was the last time anything ever happened?

So the effigies of blacks hanging from trees do not count? Yes, there have been several in very recent memory.

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 18):
Brown's actions prior to confronting the Ferguson officer weren't the cause of his death.

You are right. The fact that Officer Wilson felt threatened from 100 feet away and opened fire was the cause of his death. 100 feet away. Let that sink in. The officer was 100 feet from an unarmed person who was facing him and felt threatened.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
itsjustme
Topic Author
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:04 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):
You are right. The fact that Officer Wilson felt threatened from 100 feet away and opened fire was the cause of his death. 100 feet away. Let that sink in. The officer was 100 feet from an unarmed person who was facing him and felt threatened.

Unless you were there which, like me, you weren't, you're basing your opinion on what you've seen and read via the media. There is hard evidence supporting the officer's statement that the suspect fought with him inside the patrol car and tried to take his weapon. There is hard evidence indicating the weapon discharged while the officer and Brown were in the altercation inside the car and Brown initially fled. That part is fact. It's the belief of Wilson supporters that, at some point after initially fleeing, Brown turned and headed back toward the officer and that is when the fatal shots were fired. Assuming that is what occurred, and I believe it is, had I been in officer Wilson's situation, I, too would have fired until the threat on my life was stopped. The suspect had already tried to disarm him once; he's not going to get a second chance.

Again, neither of us were there so we have to let the judicial system take its course and trust that a decision based solely on the facts will be produced.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:10 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
I wonder how different things would have been if Michael Brown was white and Officer Wilson was Black. Even with the same set of circumstances?

The racer baiters would not have converged on Ferguson. There would not have been any protests/demonstrations/riots. There would not been a focusing of the media on the area. The officer would have been investigated and referred to the Grand Jury if the investigation warrented it***.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
Are some praying or paying for more riots?

Of course they are. The media wants (or needs) it. The race baiters need it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
There is a real need for the media to walk away from Ferguson before the Grand Jury decision is announced.

Yes, there is. But they won't.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
There is also a need to ensure that the KKK is not allowed anywhere near Ferguson as one rumor has indicated.

"...not allowed..."? So, you're advocating suppressing the First Amendment rights of a political group? What about The New Black Panthers? Shouldn't they be "...not allowed..."?

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 20):
The sooner it happens, the sooner it can be put behind us, controlled, and eventually forgotten.

Agreed. I suspect there will be violence regardless of the outcome. Let's get it done and move on.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):
The fact that Officer Wilson felt threatened from 100 feet away and opened fire was the cause of his death. 100 feet away. Let that sink in. The officer was 100 feet from an unarmed person who was facing him and felt threatened.

Seb, as far as I know (and I've admitted, I haven't been following the story), your "fact" is conjecture based on some eye-witness testimony and is contradicted by others. And, you can't discount the other "facts" that occured before the fatal shot(s) were fired.

Unless you were there, you can't really claim to know the facts.

[Edited 2014-11-20 17:14:54]

[Edited 2014-11-20 17:16:32]
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
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seb146
Posts: 23600
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:57 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
Unless you were there, you can't really claim to know the facts.

Tell that to all these people on this board and all over the world who know beyond the shadow of a doubt that Wilson was threatened and is innocent and was in a fight for his life. Or those who claim George Zimmerman was a saint. Or the officer who shot Andy Lopez was innocent. Or the officer at Fruitvale BART.... Way too many people shout and scream that the cop is innocent and the police force shows it.

Unless you were there, you can't really claim to know the facts.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:24 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
Tell that to all these people on this board and all over the world who know beyond the shadow of a doubt that Wilson was threatened and is innocent and was in a fight for his life. Or those who claim George Zimmerman was a saint. Or the officer who shot Andy Lopez was innocent. Or the officer at Fruitvale BART.... Way too many people shout and scream that the cop is innocent and the police force shows it.

Unless you were there, you can't really claim to know the facts.

I agree, unless you're there, you don't know all the facts, but you, and the others like you have already convicted Wilson because he is a white police officer.

By the way...in this country, as you well know, there is a presumption of innocence. That is a fact. Someone is innocent unless he is proven guilty.

Just a reminder to you and those ready to smash some windows and crack some heads......
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3499
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:13 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
I agree, unless you're there, you don't know all the facts, but you, and the others like you have already convicted Wilson because he is a white police officer.

Of course Seb thinks that, because according to him, you've got to disarm every white person in America before it's a "safe place". Never mind the fact that we look at the stats on who actually commits crime. Where's the outrage on black-on-black crime? Oh that's right, the liberal media doesn't care, and being a puppet of that media, seb doesn't either. Only what makes headlines, whites vs blacks. Like it or not, liberals like to paint conservatives as the racists, but the biggest group of racists out there is the liberal news media.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
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DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:20 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
This will be yet another one.
Prove it. In fact, don't even post it on this board, submit your proof to the courts. You seem to have some kind of evidence proving he is wrong.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
Tell that to all these people on this board and all over the world who know beyond the shadow of a doubt that Wilson was threatened and is innocent and was in a fight for his life. Or those who claim George Zimmerman was a saint
Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
Unless you were there, you can't really claim to know the facts.

I guess you were there, right? Because you are claiming that he's guilty and is going to "get away with it" if he is not convicted.

How can you not see the obvious double standard you're employing?! Look, I agree there is racial problems in the criminal justice system, and I often agree with your gripes with the right wing, but you cannot just turn around and go in the opposite extreme. Should people be declaring him innocent? NO, and I agree with that. Should you turn around and declare him guilty before the grand jury even has their say? NO

Read what I'm saying carefully because I have a feeling you're just gonna say "yeah but" and post something about racism that I agree with or post other examples of white cops shooting black people. If you do that, you're missing the point 100%. Does that make sense? Don't become the just-as-extreme opposite of the people you disagree with
 
bennett123
Posts: 10764
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:06 am

Two points that seem unclear to me;

How far apart were they when the fatal shots were fired.

Is it correct that six shots were fired at that point.

Incidentally, how many bullets does a Police pistol hold?.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13423
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:24 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):
The fact that Officer Wilson felt threatened from 100 feet away and opened fire was the cause of his death. 100 feet away. Let that sink in. The officer was 100 feet from an unarmed person who was facing him and felt threatened.

It's a surprise that he actually hit him, 100 feet is a reasonable distance for a hand gun and I would personally brand the officer a coward, he could have gotten into his Tahoe and driven away if he felt threatoned at that distance, now 10-20ft I'd say fair call shoot the guy, but 100 ft. just sounds wrong to me.

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 26):
and I believe it is, had I been in officer Wilson's situation, I, too would have fired until the threat on my life was stopped.

Wouldn't the smart choise in a situation like this be to get back in your squad car and drive away whilst calling for backup, this is where officers with weapons make fatal mistakes, this would happen in say Norway, the UK or NZ.
 
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fr8mech
Posts: 8184
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:48 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 32):
Incidentally, how many bullets does a Police pistol hold?.

Anywhere from 15 to 18 rounds, assuming he was carrying a full size like an M&P.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):
but 100 ft. just sounds wrong to me.

Agreed. That's 33+ yards. A tough shot at the range in calm conditions. Certainly not impossible, nor improbable depending on the skill level of the shooter, but a tough shot and to repeat it...
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
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falstaff
Posts: 5744
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 am

RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:01 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):
So the effigies of blacks hanging from trees do not count? Yes, there have been several in very recent memory.

I recall effigies burning G.W. Bush and nobody got too worked up. I have personally seen effigies of opposing football team coaches burned. Effigies aren't a person. My friends and I burned a bunch of Michael Moore books, movies and memorabilia back in 2004. That didn't mean we actually planned on burning the man himself. We had a John Kerry sign burning party in 2004 too, we didn't plan on killing John Kerry.

If the KKK is burring effigies of people it hasn't been covered by any of the mainstream news sources and isn't well known to the general public. The "new Black Panthers" threats have been broadcast by major media outlets. They threatened the life of George Zimmerman on national media.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):but 100 ft. just sounds wrong to me.
Agreed. That's 33+ yards. A tough shot at the range in calm conditions. Certainly not impossible, nor improbable depending on the skill level of the shooter, but a tough shot and to repeat it...

The leaked information from the autopsy shows that at least some of the shots were fired from a very close distance. The autopsies were performed by the state and independent doctors.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 8653
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:27 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 20):
The sooner it happens, the sooner it can be put behind us, controlled, and eventually forgotten.

Agreed. I suspect there will be violence regardless of the outcome. Let's get it done and move on.

A note here: I don't mean to sound indifferent to what's going on, but simply put I'm tired of this case already and I'm eager for a decision to come out. Knowing people, it'll be protests an entire week or so before being subsided by police or the next big thing.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
itsjustme
Topic Author
Posts: 2742
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:18 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):
Wouldn't the smart choise in a situation like this be to get back in your squad car and drive away whilst calling for backup

In this case, no. That would be seen as dereliction of duty and cowardice.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 32):
How far apart were they when the fatal shots were fired.

Under Missouri's "fleeing felon law" as well as a ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court, the distance between Brown and Wilson when the fatal shots were fired is irrelevant. In the supreme court ruling, it found police can use deadly force to stop the escape of a suspect if the suspect has threatened the life of a police officer or committed a crime threatening serious physical harm. The store videotape implicating Brown in the strong arm robbery and his physical attack on a police officer gave Wilson the right to use deadly force if necessary to stop Brown from escaping. Under current Missouri law, the only elements that have to be met to justify deadly force are: Wilson believed that Brown had committed a felony and that Brown was trying to get away.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 36):
I don't mean to sound indifferent to what's going on, but simply put I'm tired of this case already and I'm eager for a decision to come out.

An opinion shared by a lot of us; including officer Wilson, I am sure.
 
victrola
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:31 pm

RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:45 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 32):
Two points that seem unclear to me;

How far apart were they when the fatal shots were fired.

Is it correct that six shots were fired at that point.

This is what annoys me about this whole case. I still have not heard the facts. It seems like nobody wants to discuss the facts. Everyone just wants to use the incident to promote their own agenda. Does anyone know the answer to Bennett's questions?
 
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Aesma
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:54 pm

So in the US a police officer is judge, jury, and executioner. Glad to not have anything to do with that country.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
victrola
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:31 pm

RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:12 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):

Do you have any knowledge of the facts in this case? Your comment is silly and simplistic but I'm sure it gives you a good smug superior feeling.

I still have no opinion in this case because nobody seems to be presenting any facts. What are the facts that everyone can stipulate to? What are the questions that are in contention?

Nobody wants to examine this issue critically.

[Edited 2014-11-21 11:19:21]
 
windy95
Posts: 2796
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:03 pm

Sounds like he will be cleared as he should be from all the evidence that is out
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4726
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:47 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):

Unless you were there, you can't really claim to know the facts.

Oh, so you were there then?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 25):
The fact that Officer Wilson felt threatened from 100 feet away
Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
it was clearly the officer just shooting

You're so full of it.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
N1120A
Posts: 26659
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:16 am

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):

Sounds like he will be cleared as he should be from all the evidence that is out

What little has actually trickled out does not suggest that he should be cleared of anything.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:56 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 36):

A note here: I don't mean to sound indifferent to what's going on, but simply put I'm tired of this case already and I'm eager for a decision to come out. Knowing people, it'll be protests an entire week or so before being subsided by police or the next big thing.

Same here.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
So in the US a police officer is judge, jury, and executioner.

Actually, that's the case in any country. If a police officer in France is threatened, exactly what would you have him do? Roll over and allow his attacker to have his way with him? Run away and allow the attacker to escape? Or, apply a sufficient amount of force to stop the attack?

Of course, the word "sufficient" is where the debate is, and that is where the legal system comes into play.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
LittleFokker
Posts: 1392
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:11 am

So from what I gather, either Wilson is either a cold blooded murderer, or a cowardly, incompetent cop who let things get way out of hand. No matter what the outcome of the grand jury's decision is, there is no good reason this guy should do another day of police duty for the rest of his life.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
itsjustme
Topic Author
Posts: 2742
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:33 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 44):
If a police officer in France is threatened, exactly what would you have him do? Roll over and allow his attacker to have his way with him? Run away and allow the attacker to escape?

Given France's history of favoring retreat rather than fight, I'd say option #2 is most likely.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 43):
What little has actually trickled out does not suggest that he should be cleared of anything.

Well, at the very least, we know Brown had committed a felony just prior to the altercation with officer Wilson. The second Brown tried to escape from officer Wilson, Wilson, under both Missouri state law and a ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court was justified to use whatever force necessary to keep Brown, who at that point was a "fleeing felon" from escaping.

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 45):
So from what I gather, either Wilson is either a cold blooded murderer, or a cowardly, incompetent cop who let things get way out of hand.

Excuse me, you have how much experience as a police officer? And you've been in Officer Wilson's exact situation how many times? Oh, the answer to both questions is zero? Go back to watching COPS and pretending you know what you're talking about.
 
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fr8mech
Posts: 8184
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RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 45):
either Wilson is either a cold blooded murderer, or a cowardly, incompetent cop who let things get way out of hand.

Really? Nothing in between? How about: an officer that made the best decision considereing the available information and the circumstances at the given time?

Again, that is something that, first the Grand Jury has to decide and, should it get that far, a trial jury.

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 45):
No matter what the outcome of the grand jury's decision is

So, even though the legal system may clear the man, he's not allowed to continue in his given profession? Even though the Grand Jury returns a "No True Bill", he can't be a police officer again?

No, the reason he can't be a police officer again, is because the media, the race-baiters and the opportunists won't let him remain a police officer.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
itsjustme
Topic Author
Posts: 2742
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:58 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 47):
So, even though the legal system may clear the man, he's not allowed to continue in his given profession?

Unfortunately, it's highly likely that, regardless of the grand jury's decision, officer Wilson is done in law enforcement. He'll more than likely resign and pursue a different career choice. All because he simply did his job.
Pretty frickin' sad.
 
LittleFokker
Posts: 1392
Joined: Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:25 pm

RE: Ferguson MO Ruling Imminent

Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:32 am

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 48):
All because he simply did his job.
Pretty frickin' sad.

If he had done his job he wouldn't have harrassed two teenagers for crossing a damn road. Also, if he did his job, Brown would be alive to defend his version of whatever crimes he may or may not have committed instead of being the victim of street justice. It's pretty frickin' sad that you're defending a man who, at best, made a bad decision to get involved in a nothing situation and did not back down.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre

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