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D L X
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:14 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 42):
I agree my use of the term "race war" was overinflammatory, in the sense that we are not in one. My apologies.

Accepted.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 42):
However I stand by my conviction that a race war is exactly what the likes of Sharpton want

Who gives a flying flip what Sharpton wants?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 42):
and that if it were not for all this super-heated anti-police rhetoric, these officers would still be alive.

You have absolutely no way to connect those dots. The only way you could get there is though a bootstrapped belief that Sharpton has all sorts of power over Blacks. He does not. The things he said were not the cause of our anger. He said those things because we were already angry.

I still do not understand that if you believe in personal accountability (which over the years you have claimed you do), why do you not place the blame on the guy behind the gun?

Furthermore, if you really want to talk true causation, why do you place NO blame on the actions of the people that are at the root of this guy's anger?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 44):
Conservatives are no friend of the police, they just pretend to be when it's politically convenient.
 
A320ajm
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:15 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 46):
I don't see a cop being killed in the line of duty in the US as much different from a soldier being killed in action, both knew the risks when they signed up. The US is full of guns, it has lousy gun control laws, so a cop must expect that during his/her career there is a chance that they may be shot and killed on duty. It's sucks for the cop and their family but they should be realistic about the risks in the environment they choose to be a cop in.

Typical example of people avoiding the real subject - the scumbags who commit crime. Where is your respect for cops in the US who everyday put their lives on the line? If that attitude was took, no one in the US would go into law enforcement. A police officer anywhere in the world should be able to go to work, to try and make a difference and make the environment safer without getting brutally murdered. End of.

A320ajm
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PHX787
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:17 pm

Both of these officers were minorities. One latino, one chinese.

Where are the riots against africans out to kill latinos and chinese? There are none. We recognize this guy was absolutely nuts, motivated by the hatred race baiters propagate. The Chinese community in America also realizes that despite their really horrible treatment and segregation in the earlier days of the US, they know how to show the US that class and dignity transcends hate.

I'm glad that nutcase killer shot himself. He would've suffered very long in jail.
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Kiwirob
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 49):

I see... So screw 'em, they got what they asked for, eh?

Not really it's one of the risks of the job, especially in the US where you have crap gun control laws.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 49):
I know a bunch of police officers, local and state, and the vast majority are genuinely motivated by the desire to serve and help people.

All well and good, a lot of cops are good people but that still doesn't take away from the fact that the job they do has risks and one of those risks is being killed.
 
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2707200X
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:18 pm

I send my thoughts and prayers to the two police officers who where killed by this insane beast cop killer. This just shows the kind of things that police, every day have that element to deal with.

Shame on Pat Lynch and the New York Police Patrolmen's Benevolent Association for saying that Mayor De Blasio has blood on his hands after the the assassination of these two cops in cold blood. Lynch seems only to be interested on rhetorical bomb throwing and political finger pointing first and for most rather than negotiating for better pay raises and helping those and the families of those who been injured and killed in the line of duty.

This coward cop killer moved on his own, not "under the guise of protesters, not the word on the mayor, and not instructs of police criticisms of arrest procedures.

[Edited 2014-12-21 11:42:35]
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Superfly
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:47 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 44):
Do you have any evidence he wasn't? No and that's the problem.

You were the one making up the claim that Garner could have been selling to children. The burden of proof is on you to prove it. You haven't brought any evidence to support such a wild claim.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 55):
Both of these officers were minorities. One latino, one chinese.

Read my post #18.
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Kiwirob
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:07 pm

Quoting A320ajm (Reply 54):

Typical example of people avoiding the real subject - the scumbags who commit crime. Where is your respect for cops in the US who everyday put their lives on the line?

Crime is crime, I can't do anything about it, that's why we have cops. In the US you have far too many guns and shockingly bad gun laws, so in that respect you have to expect cops to die fairly often. In countries with tough gun laws cops dying is unusual and shocking, cops being shot in the US isn't shocking at all.

The problem with just about every cop I've ever met and a few which I know very well they turn in a holes when the uniform goes on and they tend to lack respect for the people who they SERVE.

[Edited 2014-12-21 13:30:49]
 
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zckls04
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:20 pm

So I hear this guy was on the run after killing his ex-girlfriend in Maryland. I wonder if that was Al Sharpton's fault as well. One thing's for sure- he was clearly extremely well-balanced before the "race baiters" got to him.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 59):
You were the one making up the claim that Garner could have been selling to children. The burden of proof is on you to prove it. You haven't brought any evidence to support such a wild claim.

The original contention was Dreadnought's belief that the mayor of New York is in part to blame for Garner's death because he instituted the law against selling loose cigarettes, which apparently is a "victimless crime". FLYPNS then explained how this crime may not be victimless, since regulation on cigarette sales exists in part to restrict sales to children. He was speaking about the law as a whole, and never claimed Garner was specifically selling to children- that was a nifty piece of misdirection by Dreadnought.
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Dreadnought
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:14 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 65):
The original contention was Dreadnought's belief that the mayor of New York is in part to blame for Garner's death because he instituted the law against selling loose cigarettes,

I never said it was DeBlasio, I said the Mayor's office. The order to crack down hard on the sale of 'Loosies' was apparently given by the Mayor's office last summer, when Bloomberg was there. My point is that the cops were under strict orders to crack down on it - according to the police officers interviewed, they consider that particular "crime" to belong WAY down on their list of priorities.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 65):
FLYPNS then explained how this crime may not be victimless, since regulation on cigarette sales exists in part to restrict sales to children.

If all they want is to keep it out of the hands of kids, they would ban it. They will never ban cigarettes - not in my lifetime - because they need the money. The state of New York gets around $2 billion per year from cigarette taxes, and the city of NY gets around 300 million, and they estimate that cigarettes smuggled in and sold as loosies or otherwise costs the state $800 million and the city another $100 million or so.
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Pyrex
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:26 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 65):
So I hear this guy was on the run after killing his ex-girlfriend in Maryland. I wonder if that was Al Sharpton's fault as well. One thing's for sure- he was clearly extremely well-balanced before the "race baiters" got to him.

He shot his girlfriend in Maryland, and then he decided to kill a couple of cops not in Baltimore, but get on a car (or however it was he made it to NYC) and shoot two NYPD officers. What possible reason could he have to have this it in him against the NYPD if it wasn't for scumbag race-baiters like Al Sharpton and his liberal enablers like De Blasio?
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PSA53
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:29 pm

FYI--The officers down page is very informative page with many stats on how officers died in the line of duty and by state.
Sadly,there are 113 officers killed in 2014 with 46 down by gun fire.


http://www.odmp.org/search/year/2014?ref=sidebar

[Edited 2014-12-21 14:31:36]
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zckls04
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:31 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 66):
I never said it was DeBlasio, I said the Mayor's office.

You said:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
Garner's death can also be directly related to the Mayor's orders to strictly enforce the ban on "loosies"

You said "the Mayor", so I said "the Mayor". But if you want to alter that to "the Mayor's Office" then I'm happy to do so in my post as well. The critique of your contention is unaffected by that change.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 66):
If all they want is to keep it out of the hands of kids, they would ban it.

Many things are viewed as being acceptable for adults and unacceptable for children. We don't ban alcohol either, but we do regulate its sale.

Much though it would be nice (IMO) to see a total smoking ban, your statement doesn't seem to make any sense. If *all* they want to do is keep cigarettes out of kids' hands, then banning the sale of cigarettes to children seems a more logical thing to do than banning them altogether.
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Cadet985
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:40 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 43):

I hope US police forces will take whatever measures needed to protect good, law abiding citizen from bunch of criminal ghetto losers.

Unfortunately, that may mean becoming more military-like in appearance and weaponry, which in my experience with European friends on Facebook confuses them. One friend lives in a country where the police might use guns ten times a year nationwide outside of training.

How long is it going to be until officers in some cities outright refuse to go into certain areas for fear of their lives?

I have a solution, although I doubt it would ever happen: The President signs an executive order, allowing the military to go into more dangerous areas and supplement police. In my solution, posse commatatus would be upheld, as the military would not be allowed to make arrests, they'd be there to back up the police, and as a show of power - and would be present ONLY at the request of local officials for a set period of time. People seem to not want police having heavy weaponry, here's a solution until we get things back under control.

Feel free to start picking my idea (and me) apart...although I should say that I have a lot of friends who are police officers, including one NYPD officer, one federal agent (I'm not saying which agency but it's higher up on the food chain), a couple of state troopers, and more local police officers than I can count...and those that I have mentioned this plan to think that it could help in the short term.

Marc
 
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zckls04
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:46 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 67):
He shot his girlfriend in Maryland, and then he decided to kill a couple of cops not in Baltimore, but get on a car (or however it was he made it to NYC) and shoot two NYPD officers. What possible reason could he have to have this it in him against the NYPD if it wasn't for scumbag race-baiters like Al Sharpton and his liberal enablers like De Blasio?

The gunman himself doesn't bear any responsibility? Nor do the original events to which the gunman himself alludes in his Instagram posts- the Brown and Garner deaths- have any connection with the gunman's motives? No, it's purely Sharpton. Hmm- that's not a logical leap at all.

Please let me know where Al Sharpton or DeBlasio called for violence against the police. I will if you wish show you many, many quotes where they call for the exact opposite (or you can google them if you wish). I am happy to reverse my opinion if you can however. I find Sharpton in particular a most unpleasant character, so it's particularly annoying to have to defend him. However I think blaming him for these officers' tragic deaths is political point-scoring of the lowest and most callous kind, and you deserve to be called out on it.
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zckls04
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:59 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 70):
Feel free to start picking my idea (and me) apart...although I should say that I have a lot of friends who are police officers, including one NYPD officer, one federal agent (I'm not saying which agency but it's higher up on the food chain), a couple of state troopers, and more local police officers than I can count...and those that I have mentioned this plan to think that it could help in the short term.

It might help those individual officers in the short term, which is probably why they favor it, but it doesn't really fix the underlying problem. In fact it makes it worse; people in those areas are going to feel even more antipathy towards the police due to the military presence. So what do you do then? If you take the military force away things will be even worse, and if you leave it there permanently you're on the road to living under military rule. We don't really want that, do we?
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seb146
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:37 am

uh-oh.... Looks like the "It's all Sharpton's fault" narrative is not following through:

http://news.yahoo.com/killings-2-yor...rs-trigger-backlash-201106309.html

Sharpton condemns the attack and the "eye for an eye" mentality and calls for peaceful protests. Not what we have been being told he was doing.
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Dreadnought
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Mon Dec 22, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 73):
Sharpton condemns the attack and the "eye for an eye" mentality and calls for peaceful protests. Not what we have been being told he was doing.

Man you are too easy. I'm not going to waste my time writing down all the stuff he has done and said that earns Sharpton the title of "Asshole of the Month". But I'll leave you with one simple challenge to Sharpton's sudden about-face. The oft-repeated motto used by Sharpton and his group has been "No Justice, No Peace". Does that sound like a peaceful slogan to you, or a threat?
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Mir
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:56 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 67):
He shot his girlfriend in Maryland, and then he decided to kill a couple of cops not in Baltimore, but get on a car (or however it was he made it to NYC) and shoot two NYPD officers. What possible reason could he have to have this it in him against the NYPD if it wasn't for scumbag race-baiters like Al Sharpton and his liberal enablers like De Blasio?

You seem to be under the impression that people needed Sharpton and DeBlasio to comment on the Eric Garner no-indictment before they got angry about it. In reality, lots of people were angry about that the moment it happened. The overwhelmingly likely scenario is that he got upset about it because it happened, not because of anything anyone said about it. And then, being nuts, he decided to do what he did.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 71):
I find Sharpton in particular a most unpleasant character, so it's particularly annoying to have to defend him.

   I don't have a whole lot of use for him, and he's talked molehills into mountains in the past. But on this occasion, he's really just commenting on the size of the mountain.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 74):
The oft-repeated motto used by Sharpton and his group has been "No Justice, No Peace". Does that sound like a peaceful slogan to you, or a threat?

The head of the PBA has said that the NYPD is now a "wartime police department", and that they will act accordingly. Does that sound like a peaceful slogan to you, or a threat?

EDIT: So there are now reports that the PBA didn't actually release that statement. But even if he didn't, it should be obvious that "no peace" does not equate to a call for violence. The way the protests have been handled should be testament to that - violence has been minimal and isolated, but disruption to the normal way of life has been there.

-Mir

[Edited 2014-12-21 20:38:48]
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opethfan
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:42 am

My posts have been delated. Apparently legitimate racial intolerance is tolerated here, but criticism of said intolerance is not. So I will rehash in a way that will be sure to not step on even the most sensitive of toes:

Racism is an issue in the US. It is not due to "racial war baiting" as one replier has suggested, but because barely a generation after the Fair Housing Act was passed and not even a century and a half after the 13th Amendment was ratified, Black Americans are still incarcerated at an astonishingly high rate, face significant unemployment, and are marginalized and ghettoized thanks to the fallout from centuries of apartheid. That inequality does not, and has not, gone away. It is the cause of the issues we see in various protests and lends credence and support to the polarizing individuals some are blaming for the tragic event noted in the OP. But don't confuse the smoke for causing the fire.

[Edited 2014-12-21 22:43:49]
 
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seb146
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:10 am

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 68):
Racism is an issue in the US. It is not due to "racial war baiting" as one replier has suggested, but because barely a generation after the Fair Housing Act was passed and not even a century and a half after the 13th Amendment was ratified, Black Americans are still incarcerated at an astonishingly high rate, face significant unemployment, and are marginalized and ghettoized thanks to the fallout from centuries of apartheid. That inequality does not, and has not, gone away.

Exactly. But, there is a certain political group that rests on it's laurels by saying "Well, that law has been passed, so racism no longer exists." Except it does. Even when confronted with what is really going on, that certain sector of society simply closes it's eyes, plugs it's ears and shouts "I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!"

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 66):
The oft-repeated motto used by Sharpton and his group has been "No Justice, No Peace". Does that sound like a peaceful slogan to you, or a threat?

So, what you (and those with your mind set) are saying is: killing unarmed (usually Black) people is acceptable and the rest of us should just shut the heck up. Murders by police are acceptable because they should never have been walking while Black. Or young. Thank you for clearing that up.
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casinterest
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:42 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Thread starter):

Quite a tragic incident, and it is really unfortunate that it happened. A lone disturbed gunman decided to act out on his own feeling and perpetuated an atrocity against at least 3 innocent people. Two of them being NYPD members. This choice unless proven otherwise had to do with the perpetrator's perception of the media coverage over the last few months.

The media fallout that has ensued has proven to be less than heartwarming, and is definitely not giving much respect to those fallen policeman who gave their lives for doing their job.

Blaming the protesters is stupid, as most of them wanted an end to aggressive and unnecessary violence.
The media and political spectacle following it all is going to probably create even harsher feelings, that will simmer longer, and just explode again in a few months or years time.
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victrola
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:42 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 53):
All well and good, a lot of cops are good people but that still doesn't take away from the fact that the job they do has risks and one of those risks is being killed.

Also one of the risks of attacking a cop is that you could get killed. I've got no problem with that one.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:30 pm

Quoting victrola (Reply 71):

Also one of the risks of attacking a cop is that you could get killed. I've got no problem with that one.

Well he's dead at his own hand, cowardly IMO.
 
skyservice_330
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:07 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
When will people learn that race-baiting is a BUSINESS?
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
make money from it.

Based on the amount of ink that sites like the National Review and WND spill on the issue of race and race related issues, I would submit that there are those on the right who may have just as much an interest in perpetuating these issues for financial gain as well.
 
D L X
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:27 pm

Quoting skyservice_330 (Reply 75):

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
When will people learn that race-baiting is a BUSINESS?
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
make money from it.

Based on the amount of ink that sites like the National Review and WND spill on the issue of race and race related issues, I would submit that there are those on the right who may have just as much an interest in perpetuating these issues for financial gain as well.

I would strongly agree.

But I would also warn to be very careful not to fall into dreadnought's trap. That people are talking about race does not mean that they do so because his so-called "race-baiters" have convinced us that we are the victims of racism. He has it backwards. People are marching not because race-baiters have told them to march. Rather, the people that are profiting from racial disharmony are profiting on the backs of people who, wholly independently of them, have decided to march.
 
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Aesma
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:50 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
The perpetrator killed himself after committing the crime. Not sure how you punish a corpse...

You could ask Israel for advice...

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 48):
Respect is something you earn, not something you should be immediately expected to have as a function of your position.

Except if you wear a badge, I guess.
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seb146
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:11 am

Reading an interesting op-ed piece about conservatives freaking out over a Black Muslim cop killer but forget about white conservative cop killers this summer. It is somehow Obama, Jackson, and Sharpton inciting violence by Blacks when one man kills two cops but when white conservative followers of Cliven Bundy say it is because of right-wing talk radio and right-wing opinion makers as the reason they killed cops, not a peep. The blame is laid squarely at the feet of the white conservative cop killers and not the white conservative leaders. What is wrong with this picture?
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BMI727
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:52 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 93):

And yet you've still provided no link with a quote of anyone saying that the killings of Brown and Garner were "acceptable."
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KaiGywer
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:00 pm

Here's my point of view as a cop. I do not look at this as terrorism, however, I am concerned about the huge increase in cops being shot and killed this year. 46 so far, an increase of 53% over last year, while the overall number of cops killed has increased by "only" 10% (114 so far).
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zckls04
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:05 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 78):
Here's my point of view as a cop. I do not look at this as terrorism, however, I am concerned about the huge increase in cops being shot and killed this year. 46 so far, an increase of 53% over last year, while the overall number of cops killed has increased by "only" 10% (114 so far).

I would also be concerned (1 is too many), but I'd like to see a few more years worth of statistics before panicking too much. That's a very small sample size with which to draw any meaningful conclusions about an increase.
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KaiGywer
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RE: 2 Police Officers Shot In NY

Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:23 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 79):
I would also be concerned (1 is too many), but I'd like to see a few more years worth of statistics before panicking too much. That's a very small sample size with which to draw any meaningful conclusions about an increase.

Check out ODMP and you can see statistics going back years.
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