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OA260
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Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Tue Dec 30, 2014 8:20 pm

A bit of a bizzare and tragic story !

Toddler shoots, kills mom at Hayden Wal-Mart

HAYDEN, Idaho -
A woman was accidentally shot and killed by her two-year-old son at the Wal-Mart in Hayden, Idaho, Tuesday morning.
Lt. Stu Miller with the Kootenai County Sheriff's Office said the shooting happened at 10:20 a.m

http://www.kxly.com/news/north-idaho...hayden-walmart-evacuation/30458938
 
jetwet1
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Tue Dec 30, 2014 9:52 pm

Darwin at work, even after living in the States for 25 years the number of times this happens still amazes me.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:38 pm

No worries shows that concealed carry is an effective deterrent. The NRA will applaud this.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:47 pm

What a complete tragic joke !

Wake up America and smell the roses  

Guns kill !

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
The NRA will applaud this.

The NRA should be shut down and abolished.   
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
BMI727
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Tue Dec 30, 2014 10:54 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
No worries shows that concealed carry is an effective deterrent. The NRA will applaud this.

The improved odds of keeping idiots alive is not a point in favor of stronger gun control. It's a point against stronger gun control.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
aloges
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:06 pm

I shot my mommy
But I swear it was in self defense
I shot my mommy
And they say it is a civil right

Well, I suppose I have yet another reason to keep avoiding Walmart stores.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:29 pm

If only the mother were armed, nothing would have happened. Ooh, wait....
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NoUFO
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Tue Dec 30, 2014 11:49 pm

No jetwet1, this is not Darwin at work, but tragic by any account.

We could talk about Darwin had this guy killed himself (by now he has perhaps managed):

I support the right to arm bears
 
photopilot
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:06 am

That's ok.... the kid's dad will get a high-priced lawyer and sue Walmart for failing to protect his wife while in their store.
 
CupraIbiza
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:18 am

I cant stop thinking about the poor little two year old. Forever having this over them. Life potentially ruined (imagine having to live knowing you killed your parent)

Simple maths equation - Less guns in the communtiy = less shootings.
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fr8mech
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 6):
If only the mother were armed, nothing would have happened.

Had the mother properly controlled her firearm and/or her child, this would never had happened.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 3):
Guns kill !

Sigh...I have yet to see a firearm discharge itself.

Let me you all a dose of reality in this particular case:

This woman caused her own death. Not the NRA. Not her child. Not the person that sold her the gun. Not the gun manufacturer or the ammunition manufacturer. Not Wal-Mart, nor the purse manufacturer. She did it to herself.

She failed to control access to her firearm. That is the root cause of her death.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
The NRA will applaud this.

I'm quite sure the folks at the NRA, and the vast majority of its 3,000,000+ members are saddened and appalled by this incident.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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ElanusNotatus
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:06 am

This is sad. My sympathy to the mother's family and I hope that the child will obtain the support it needs.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
. The NRA will applaud this.

I doubt that most strongly. Many NRA members would have children themselves and would be conscious of the dangerous mix of guns and small children. I can't see them gleefully rubbing their hands.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 3):
Guns kill !

People with guns kill but so do people with knives, wire, rope, poisons, their hands.

While I support greater control in access to firearms, mainly through training, safe storage, etc, the problem is not guns per se. In this instance it was the ease with which a toddler could access a weapon in a handbag. We all know toddlers can be a handful and a parent can be distracted while shopping but this unfortunate incident highlights the need to keep proper control of a firearm at all times.
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opethfan
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:12 am

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 11):

Thank you for being the sole poster in this thread hoisting an Australian flag but lacking the traditional Ozzie arrogance we've seen here "lol stupid Americans, we banned guns and now nothing bad ever happens here" - completely disregarding the historical and cultural differences between the nations.
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:47 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
No worries shows that concealed carry is an effective deterrent. The NRA will applaud this.

Why? She screwed up. And died for it. Where's the problem?

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 1):
Darwin at work, even after living in the States for 25 years the number of times this happens still amazes me.
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 7):
No jetwet1, this is not Darwin at work, but tragic by any account.

Unfortunately, not a case for the Darwin award. She'd already reproduced, so th e stupid gene is still out there.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
This woman caused her own death. Not the NRA. Not her child. Not the person that sold her the gun. Not the gun manufacturer or the ammunition manufacturer. Not Wal-Mart, nor the purse manufacturer. She did it to herself.

Bingo.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:01 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
so th e stupid gene is still out there

I wouldn't go so far as calling her "stupid", considering we know nothing at all about her outside this incident.

We do know that her judgement lapsed. Whether her actions were normal, i.e. leaving her firearm in her purse unattended, all the time, or just a momentary lapse, we see that, when it comes to firearms, there is very little room for error.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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seb146
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:09 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Not the NRA

Was she a card carrying member? If so, then it was partly their fault. Being North Idaho, I would guess yes, she is.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Not her child

Even though the child pulled the trigger. How many times have we heard "well, if he hadn't reached for the cops gun, he would still be alive!"?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
This woman caused her own death.

For many reasons. Two of them being her own stupidity for carrying a loaded and unlocked weapon and also for not teaching her two year old the proper ways to handle fire arms.

It is just a tragic shame that her neighborhood in North Idaho is rife with crime that she feels she must carry an unlocked gun everywhere. oh, wait.... North Idaho....

I completely understand people in rural areas carrying rifles for food and protection from wild animals but, to bring a loaded and unlocked gun into Wal-Mart (or any store) is senseless.
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ElanusNotatus
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:27 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):

Was she a card carrying member? If so, then it was partly their fault.

How so? I have a Western Australian driving licence? If I crash my car, is the State of WA responsible?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
Even though the child pulled the trigger

If the child was 14 years old we could say it was responsible. A two year old is not able to recognise the danger and doesn't understand the consequences so can not be held responsible in the same way.
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fr8mech
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:42 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
Was she a card carrying member? If so, then it was partly their fault. Being North Idaho, I would guess yes, she is.

Are you a member of AAA? If you get into an accident, are they partially at fault?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
also for not teaching her two year old the proper ways to handle fire arms.

There is no way to teach a 2 year old how to properly interact with a firearm. 2 year olds and firearms a best kept apart.

More info here.


Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
Even though the child pulled the trigger. How many times have we heard "well, if he hadn't reached for the cops gun, he would still be alive!"?

????
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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usflyer msp
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:53 am

The two-year old was just "standing his ground" against a spanking, what is the problem?
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:07 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Sigh...I have yet to see a firearm discharge itself.

Who said anything about the gun discharging itself ?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
This woman caused her own death.

Did the women shoot herself, I thought the kid did it ?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
She failed to control access to her firearm. That is the root cause of her death.

But if the "firearm" or gun wasn't there in the first place..... it would NEVER have happened !

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 11):
This is sad. My sympathy to the mother's family and I hope that the child will obtain the support it needs.

What ?

"The support it needs" ?

The kids life is ruined. full stop. Do you think, no matter how much "support it receives " that you'd EVER get over something like this... you gotta be kidding me.It will be with the kid forever.

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 11):
People with guns kill but so do people with knives, wire, rope, poisons, their hands.

Thank you for stating the obvious, but we are talking about a child who had access to a GUN, not rope or a knife or whatever, but a GUN.

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 11):
We all know toddlers can be a handful and a parent can be distracted while shopping but this unfortunate incident highlights the need to keep proper control of a firearm at all times.

And when is that ever going to happen in a country like the US ?

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 12):
completely disregarding the historical and cultural differences between the nations.

Oh, so that should be the excuse then ?

Historical differences ?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
Why? She screwed up. And died for it. Where's the problem?

And you forgot to mention that the kids life is ruined now too.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
She'd already reproduced, so th e stupid gene is still out there.

So another words, there is now a kid, who's going to do the same thing to their children.. wow

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 14):
I wouldn't go so far as calling her "stupid", considering we know nothing at all about her outside this incident.

You might not call her stupid, but plenty are.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):
2 year olds and firearms a best kept apart.

Obvious....?

Pity she didn't think about that before she put the gun in her purse to go "shopping".

[Edited 2014-12-30 21:09:11]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:15 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
Unfortunately, not a case for the Darwin award. She'd already reproduced, so th e stupid gene is still out there.

Kind of my reaction too, but I read up a little more on a whim instead of just shooting from the hip (too soon for puns?). Honestly, it's a good bet she's smarter than you Dreadnought. Just goes to show, stuff happens.


From the Spokesman Review...



The woman, Veronica J. Rutledge, lived in Blackfoot, Idaho, where she worked as a research scientist at the Idaho National Laboratory investigating the handling of nuclear fuel waste. She grew up in Harrison, Idaho as Veronica Hendricks, where she was the 2004 valedictorian of Kootenai High School.


Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 16):

How so? I have a Western Australian driving licence? If I crash my car, is the State of WA responsible?

Poor analogy. Despite what you'd think after their extensive lobbying and and Vote purchasing, the NRA still isn't actually a gov't agency.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):
Are you a member of AAA? If you get into an accident, are they partially at fault?

Better, but still going to extremes. Now if the AAA were consistently trying to remove things like having to have a license to drive, was opposed to liability insurance or encouraged drunk driving, that analogy would be spot on.

In any case, no, this momentary lapse of judgement looks like it will be on the deceased.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
Two of them being her own stupidity for carrying a loaded and unlocked weapon and also for not teaching her two year old the proper ways to handle fire arms.

Just how do expect to train a 2 year old to use a gun? And why for hell's sake?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):
There is no way to teach a 2 year old how to properly interact with a firearm. 2 year olds and firearms a best kept apart.

I'd say that's true for a lot more than just two year olds.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:36 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
But if the "firearm" or gun wasn't there in the first place..... it would NEVER have happened !

If she had not decided to go to Wal-mart, this would never had happened. If she hadn't gotten out of bed that morning, this wouldn't have happened. If she hadn't had a child, this wouldn't have happened. You can go back as far as you want...the root cause here is that she failed to properly control her firearm and she paid the price.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
You might not call her stupid, but plenty are.

One stupid mistake does not make one stupid. In this case, it makes her dead, but not stupid.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 20):
Now if the AAA were consistently trying to remove things like having to have a license to drive, was opposed to liability insurance or encouraged drunk driving, that analogy would be spot on.

The NRA, just like the AAA is an advocacy group. Both encourage the safe and responsible use of their 'target' activity. Both do their best to ensure that everyone that who can participate in the activity is able to participate in the activity.

I wonder what AAA's position is on the state retesting elderly drivers before they can renew....
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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ElanusNotatus
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:58 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
you gotta be kidding me.It will be with the kid forever.

Of course the child will grow up knowing that it shot the mother but that does not automatically mean it will become a drug addicted no-hoper as a consequence. Such an outcome is more likely if the child is constantly reminded of the event, is held to be to blame and is viewed as evil.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
Did the women shoot herself, I thought the kid did it ?

Who stated that the woman shot herself? It was her carrying the weapon in her handbag and her inattention, for whatever reason, that led to her child accessing the weapon. As the owner or carrier of the gun, it was her responsibility to ensure that it was secure. Hence she caused the conditions that could lead to her death.

I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that she possessed a "stupid gene". Guilty of negligence possibly. But for those who are quick to condemn, show me a person who has never done something stupid and I'll show you a person who has never done anything. At some stage everyone does something stupid, fortunately usually not with such tragic consequences.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:09 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
.the root cause here is that she failed to properly control her firearm and she paid the price.

Sorry, but there appears to be a big problem with "people" not properly controlling guns in your country, and this in not the first time such a tragic incident has occurred, nor will it be the last

Do you think that's acceptable, to have incident after incident, and at the same time, accept that there are so many stupid people around and expecting them to "control guns" properly ?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
One stupid mistake does not make one stupid. In this case, it makes her dead, but not stupid.

Sorry, but I but to differ.
She is stupid and now dead too !

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 22):
Such an outcome is more likely if the child is constantly reminded of the event, is held to be to blame and is viewed as evil.

Well sorry to break it you ElanusNotatus, but this kid is now going to feature prominently in the Wiki files, a reminder for ALL TIME and a "constant reminder "

Not something I'd view as being a good thing for the future well being of the child

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 22):
Who stated that the woman shot herself?

That's what I was asking?

I know the kid shoot her, its in the article.

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 22):
show me a person who has never done something stupid and I'll show you a person who has never done anything.

So with so many stupid people in the US then, eg, nearly, if not everyone, are the gun laws adequate considering the amount of guns in US society. Dangerous place indeed then !
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:20 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
She failed to control access to her firearm. That is the root cause of her death.

Why would that be? Could it be because the NRA has made a concerted effort to ban ANY AND ALL regulation with regards to firearm safety or training? Could it be because "gun culture" has been actively promoted by the gun lobby making it seem that keeping a loaded firearm in your purse is a good idea?

Perhaps that "well-regulated militia" component of the 2nd amendment needs to be re-examined.
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AR385
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:21 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Had the mother properly controlled her firearm and/or her child, this would never had happened.

The accounts I have read are so unbelievable in terms of the sequence of events that I think this is really a one off event. The odds of the entire thing happening the way it did have to be astronomical. It is sad. And I hope the child gets the support it will need throughout the rest of its life.

I won´t comment on gun control issues etc. Threads like that we have frequently and always lead nowhere.

One question though. How much pressure is needed on a trigger for a 2 year old to be able to fire that gun? Could the gun be defective in how sensitive it was?
 
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seb146
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:58 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):
I hope the child gets the support it will need throughout the rest of its life.

Good luck!! This is 'Murica where we don't need no stinkin' gubmint to tell us how to live the health of our kids!!

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 20):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
Two of them being her own stupidity for carrying a loaded and unlocked weapon and also for not teaching her two year old the proper ways to handle fire arms.

Just how do expect to train a 2 year old to use a gun? And why for hell's sake?

All you NRA types keep droning on and on about "responsible gun use" and so forth. Well? Doesn't this qualify?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 17):
uoting seb146 (Reply 15):
Was she a card carrying member? If so, then it was partly their fault. Being North Idaho, I would guess yes, she is.

Are you a member of AAA? If you get into an accident, are they partially at fault?

??? See my previous comments. At least AAA stands behind their members and condemns the stupidity of others.

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 16):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
Even though the child pulled the trigger

If the child was 14 years old we could say it was responsible. A two year old is not able to recognise the danger and doesn't understand the consequences so can not be held responsible in the same way.

So a mentally ill person is responsible but a 2 year old is not? I don't get how... nevermind... I do.... you just don't want to hear it....

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 16):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):

Was she a card carrying member? If so, then it was partly their fault.

How so? I have a Western Australian driving licence? If I crash my car, is the State of WA responsible?

Government entities are different than private entities. If the government of a state says you are capable of driving a car, that is different than Ford saying you are capable of driving a car. Likewise, if Idaho says you are capable of owning a gun means nothing but if NRA says you are capable of owning a gun it is law.

Show me where in the United States Constitution it talks about INDIVIDUAL gun ownership. I know it says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." - See more at: http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment2.html#sthash.CEF4NiKm.dpuf But what does that have to do with a woman carrying a pistol into a Wal-Mart where her child can pull the trigger? And, for that matter, NRA? What does "well regulated Militia" have to do with me owning more than 2 semi automatic weapons? Because Obama is a socialist?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:00 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
Sorry, but I but to differ.
She is stupid and now dead too !

Perhaps you missed this:

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 20):
From the Spokesman Review...

The woman, Veronica J. Rutledge, lived in Blackfoot, Idaho, where she worked as a research scientist at the Idaho National Laboratory investigating the handling of nuclear fuel waste. She grew up in Harrison, Idaho as Veronica Hendricks, where she was the 2004 valedictorian of Kootenai High School.

Now, being smart does not necessarily mean you have common sense, in fact, in some cases they appear to be exclusive of each other.

Whether she is stupid or not, she did something stupid and paid the price.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
Sorry, but there appears to be a big problem with "people" not properly controlling guns in your country, and this in not the first time such a tragic incident has occurred, nor will it be the last

You're correct. I do have a problem with people that do not properly handle firearms. When I see it, I do something about it. In fact, this year I will be taking the NRA basic pistol instructors course so I can help make the activity safer.

By the way; there are an estimated 310,000,000 firearms in non-government hands in the US. In 2010, there were 606 deaths from the negligent discharge or accidental discharge of a firearm. If I'm doing the math correctly, that's one accidental death per .00000195 firearms. It is a problem, but it is hardly an epidemic.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):
How much pressure is needed on a trigger for a 2 year old to be able to fire that gun?

Good question. I haven't seen what kind of firearm was used. Trigger weight varies, widely from gun to gun.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):
Could the gun be defective in how sensitive it was?

Quite possible.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
Could it be because the NRA has made a concerted effort to ban ANY AND ALL regulation with regards to firearm safety or training?

Doc, the NRA is all about safety and training. The problem occurs when the government mandates a certain level of training that may infringe on the rights of The People. A mandatory training syllabus can not be so onerous, in cost, content or access, as to deny anyone the right to 'keep and bear arms'.

I suspect, that if the government subsidized firearms training for everyone that is eligible to own and/or carry a firearm, most opposition to mandatory training would dissolve.

[Edited 2014-12-30 23:03:29]
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:04 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
Both encourage the safe and responsible use of their 'target' activity. Both do their best to ensure that everyone that who can participate in the activity is able to participate in the activity.

Yeah, no. One does, the other is the NRA. I realize they like to put out pamphlets about safety here and there, but (and I realize this is a shocker), that doesn't actually mean they mean it. Or do you also believe that Phillip Morris exists to lead folks to healthier lifestyles, you know, since they put all those little warning stickers on cigarette packets?

It's a free country (well, for White Males like us anyway), so you believe whatever you want. But when a group consistently and steadfastly lobbies against any gun safety measure whatsoever, I'm not fooled about their motives.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
I wonder what AAA's position is on the state retesting elderly drivers before they can renew....

Probably not what you think. Say, what's the NRA's position on guns in school zones? Or taking shedloads of money from manufacturers to promote gun culture? Or firearm liability insurance? Hmmmm...

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
Do you think that's acceptable, to have incident after incident, and at the same time, accept that there are so many stupid people around and expecting them to "control guns" properly ?

To answer you frankly, obviously we do. Our mentality in the US is much as it is in the Western World over things like this. Namely that we refuse to let any tragedy, no matter how awful, take our fun/toys away. The yahoos in this thread calling this woman an idiot, etc aren't doing so because they're bad, misogynistic toads (maybe they are, but that's not why I mean). They're saying these things because they honestly believe if we just blame the victim enough, such things won't ever happen to them. If they admit that this individual was playing by the rules, and of at least average intelligence, then they have to recognize that this could happen to them. If they do that, then they need to recognize that gun safety needs to be taken seriously, or alternatively, we just need to get rid of the guns. Either option conflicts heinously with having fun with toys the way things now are. So a much easier solution is to simply assume that this only happens to idiots who deserve it.

I'm going to be the first to admit that I like spending good money on things that are fun, fast, and sometimes make loud noises. But I cannot, with a straight face, pretend my motives are anything other.
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:31 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 28):
that doesn't actually mean they mean it.

Prove it.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 28):
But when a group consistently and steadfastly lobbies against any gun safety measure whatsoever,

You do mean 'gun control measure', right?

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 28):
Say, what's the NRA's position on guns in school zones?

The same as my position. The same as its position on any 'gun free zone': they are useless, feel good pieces of legislation that potentially get people killed. Unless a 'gun free zone' is set-up to exclude weapons, e.g. airport-style security and screening, then the only people affected by a 'gun free zone' are law-abiding citizens.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 28):
Or firearm liability insurance?

I assume their position is the same position they probably hold (note: I'm using words like assume and probably, I'm not an NRA spokesman) with mandatory, government compelled training: the cost may prove to be an onerous burden on, otherwise eligible people.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 28):
Or taking shedloads of money from manufacturers to promote gun culture?

That's a nice story there, untrue, but nice. But, even if it were true...what's the problem? Again, the NRA is an advocacy group. For them to take money in order to further advocate for their cause is not a problem.
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:17 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 26):
All you NRA types keep droning on and on about "responsible gun use" and so forth. Well? Doesn't this qualify?

You're calling me an "NRA type"? What did I ever do to you?  

In all seriousness, I can sort of see what you're getting at now you put it like that. But I have to admit, it really wasn't worded that facetiously the first time around.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
You do mean 'gun control measure', right?

Potato, Potahto. I think what you guys don't really understand that when you try to spin "gun control" as some kind of automatically bad thing, it pretty much means we shouldn't take whatever follows seriously.

I understand that not all gun control measures are going to work out as intended. But even if they don't, the worst that happens is a lot of wasted paper.

Now when we oppose all gun safety measures out of hand (because Reactionary is the only language the NRA knows) on a knee jerk basis, yes, people almost certainly do come to grief as a result. The fact that the NRA never supports responsibility here is why whatever band-aid measures they come up with deserve no consideration.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):

The same as my position. The same as its position on any 'gun free zone': they are useless, feel good pieces of legislation that potentially get people killed.

Ok, so we're putting a spin on being cool with people we don't know anything about having guns near concentrations of children. Got it.

Float it how ever you want, but the truth is that we just don't want to be inconvenienced with having to responsibly locate our weapons.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
I assume their position is the same position they probably hold (note: I'm using words like assume and probably, I'm not an NRA spokesman) with mandatory, government compelled training: the cost may prove to be an onerous burden on, otherwise eligible people.

Hmmm.... Nope, not our problem. You have a right to seek out the best health maintenance options you find, and that's the same as fact. But that doesn't mean your next elective cosmetic procedure is on uncle sam.

You have the right to travel freely and w/out need of passport w/in the US. But you don't get to have the tax payers cover your auto insurance.

You want to keep your toys? Then it's your responsibility to know how to use them safely, not mine to pay for you to learn to do so. Can't deal with that? Then don't have them.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
For them to take money in order to further advocate for their cause is not a problem.

It is when they advocate endangering more people so they can help sell you more toys. Up to and prior to that point, no problem.
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:24 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
Oh, so that should be the excuse then ?

Historical differences ?

When we consider that the US was founded by, and had its law of the land written by, the leaders of a violent revolution, the historical differences must be noted. The US history and legal frameworks are shaped by this background and the rationale behind this facet of society cannot be conveniently ignored just because other nations have developed in different ways and therefore have different viewpoints or different societal issues. Freedoms come with responsibilities and often have harmful fallouts. Speech, association, defence against self-incrimination, etc. all have negative ramifications in many circumstances. However we deem them to be necessary freedoms for the greater good, just as the founding fathers of the US deemed firearm ownership to be. Not because of lofty hypotheticals as most Europeans and Australians seem to suggest it is, but because they *did* use it. You or I may come from nations that flew Queenie's flag until she was kind enough to devolve power a few hundred years later, but the Americans took their independence and then codified the means to keep that independence in the highest law of the land.
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:33 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
I assume their position is the same position they probably hold (note: I'm using words like assume and probably, I'm not an NRA spokesman) with mandatory, government compelled training: the cost may prove to be an onerous burden on, otherwise eligible people.

This works in just about any other 1st world country, so why shouldn't it work in the US? My guess is if someone can't afford to go to a gun control course is probably the type of person you don't want owning a gun. I'll say it again each and every person owning a gun should have a license to use it. Everyone has to learn to drive before they get a license to drive, I can't see why it should be any different for owning weapons.
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:36 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 30):
Potato, Potahto.

Actually, no. Language is important and words have meaning. Gun safety means gun safety and gun control means gun control. Do not conflate the two.

We have thousands of laws, at the state and federal level, regulating guns and/or ammunition. And, you and your ilk want more.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 30):
Ok, so we're putting a spin on being cool with people we don't know anything about having guns near concentrations of children. Got i

Tell me: how does a gun free zone prevent a criminal from entering that zone with a firearm? Does a drug-free zone prevent someone from entering that zone with drugs?

They are feel good pieces of legislation that allow the state to add additional charges if, by chance someone happens to be arrested in those zones.

And, tell me: what's the difference between a concentration of children and a concentration of adults? I'll tell you what the difference is; children pull on our heartstrings and make for a good emotional plea.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 30):
You want to keep your toys? Then it's your responsibility to know how to use them safely, not mine to pay for you to learn to do so. Can't deal with that? Then don't have them.

So, you would be OK with requiring a knowledge and/or skills test for someone to exercise their constitutional right to vote? How about a poll tax? Someone has to pay for all this voting?

Sorry, you can't pick and choose the constitutional rights you want to protect and those you want to trample.

[Edited 2014-12-31 00:37:44]
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:10 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
And, tell me: what's the difference between a concentration of children and a concentration of adults? I'll tell you what the difference is; children pull on our heartstrings and make for a good emotional plea.

You don't think there's a practical reason we've evolved that way? Any society that doesn't look out for its kids first has no business existing.


As for the zones, I'd be willing to bet they've prevented a fair amount of accidents as well.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
Gun safety means gun safety and gun control means gun control. Do not conflate the two.

I'm aware of that, and I didn't at any time. What I don't think you see is that the two aren't exclusive. You're probably never going to believe this, but the folks who come up with gun control/responsibility measures literally don't have an agenda other than curbing violence. There's nothing to be gained other than that.

So when people come up with gun control measures, yes, safety is absolutely at the heart of it.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
So, you would be OK with requiring a knowledge and/or skills test for someone to exercise their constitutional right to vote? How about a poll tax? Someone has to pay for all this voting?

Sorry, you can't pick and choose the constitutional rights you want to protect and those you want to trample.

Yeah, nice try, but not really. First off, voting? Ok, well in your universe I guess we should compensate parents who have to take the day off to watch their kids, since they're not in school (since schools are still polling places in most of the nation).

And yes, we absolutely can pick and choose. Why don't I go to some extremes here, since these are 'rights'. How about we give felons back the right to bear arms. Or folks with no-contact orders out against them? Or the blind?

You want rights, you need to be responsible. Guns are a completely elective luxury that no one has a verifiable need for. And they can be dangerous (as seen in this story). Compelling people to register, insure & know how to use these things is in no way asking too much.

In your case, I wouldn't worry, as this is largely theoretical. We all know that this event will come to nothing. And if that somehow isn't true, goofy bastards like Wayne LaPierre will have their organizations spend lots and lots of money to keep the status quo.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
Does a drug-free zone prevent someone from entering that zone with drugs?

Actually yeah, they do. I grew up with a few dealers (you're not going to believe this, but they don't fit neatly into stereotypes very well) and learned enough about that to know that they generally don't like their wares being distributed or used in "hot" areas. Of course there are exceptions, but those guys are usually pretty stupid and don't stay in business long.

It's off-topic enough that it's probably not a very good comparison to gun-free zones. I could ask the lady-friend what she sees on her beat, but for most dealers, schools are ok for advertizing but little else.
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:20 am

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 31):
However we deem them to be necessary freedoms for the greater good, just as the founding fathers of the US deemed firearm ownership to be.

Fine and dandy, but we no longer live in 1791. Nor does America.
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:27 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
Why would that be? Could it be because the NRA has made a concerted effort to ban ANY AND ALL regulation with regards to firearm safety or training? Could it be because "gun culture" has been actively promoted by the gun lobby making it seem that keeping a loaded firearm in your purse is a good idea?

Perhaps that "well-regulated militia" component of the 2nd amendment needs to be re-examined

Perfectly put.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
A mandatory training syllabus can not be so onerous, in cost, content or access, as to deny anyone the right to 'keep and bear arms'.

This seems to be the root of the problem that Doc describes above. Why in the world shouldn't it be onerous to be allowed to own a gun. Just as with a car, you have to learn to use it before you get to play with it!

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
If I'm doing the math correctly, that's one accidental death per .00000195 firearms

Clearly you must not be doing the math correctly, because by that ratio, there would be 512,821 accidental deaths for each firearm owned.   
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:54 am

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 34):
As for the zones, I'd be willing to bet they've prevented a fair amount of accidents as well.

You can't prove that, just like I can't prove that that I can't prove that gun free zones cost lives...oh wait.....It seems to me that quite a few our mass-shootings occur in gun free zones. Is that just where the targets were? Or, is that where the soft targets where? Something that can;t really be proved either way.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 34):
So when people come up with gun control measures, yes, safety is absolutely at the heart of it.

Control is at the heart of any gun control measure.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 34):
How about we give felons back the right to bear arms.

I have no problem returning all constitutional rights back to non-violent offenders that have served their full sentence and have continued to stay on the right side of the law through their parole period or, say 5 years, whichever is longer.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 34):
Or folks with no-contact orders out against them?

Once the order has been lifted, what's the issue? If the order is lifted, the state has deemed that person to no longer be a threat, no?

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 34):
Or the blind?

First, we have to define blind. There are different levels. but, for the most part, I don't feel a blind person should have a firearm...at least not outside the home.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 34):
Ok, well in your universe I guess we should compensate parents who have to take the day off to watch their kids, since they're not in school (since schools are still polling places in most of the nation).

Why shouldn't we? If we believe that it's a right, and it is, and we are placing a burden on the parents by placing polling places in the schools; maybe we should consider something. Maybe we move polling places to some other venue, so the kids can continue in school.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 34):
elective luxury

A right.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 34):
Compelling people to register

A non-starter.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 35):
Fine and dandy, but we no longer live in 1791. Nor does America.

Does that apply to the rest of the Bill of Rights? The First Amendment, The Fourth?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):
My guess is if someone can't afford to go to a gun control course is probably the type of person you don't want owning a gun.

Wow. Please explain. Because it seems like what you're saying is that if someone is poor, they aren't the type of person that should be allowed to have a gun. Why? I submit that a poor person has more need of a firearm than I do.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 36):
Why in the world shouldn't it be onerous to be allowed to own a gun.

Because, it is a right. And, we do our damnedest to allow people to exercise their rights.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 36):
Clearly you must not be doing the math correctly, because by that ratio, there would be 512,821 accidental deaths for each firearm owned.

Please help me out then.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
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You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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rugger
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:56 am

I am sorry this happened, but it's still hard to believe that a 2 year old could open a purse, remove a gun, flip the safety off and then have good enough aim to hit a target. The stars must have been in exactly the right alignment for a tragedy like this to take place.
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:08 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Sigh...I have yet to see a firearm discharge itself.

I've yet to see a mobile phone make a phone call by itself but tell me this, if I am carrying a mobile phone am I more or less likely to make a phone call?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
She failed to control access to her firearm. That is the root cause of her death.

Luckily this time it was her death but what if it had been a bystander?
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NorthstarBoy
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:10 am

I hope for the sake of the child that the family does not hold this against him. I also hope that when the child gets older and the subject of the loss of the mother comes up that the child is not told he killed his own mother.

What I cant understand is why an obviously educated woman would feel the need to carry a gun in her purse at all, especially in someplace as innocuous as Idaho. If she lived in any number of inner city ghettos where her life might be under daily threat by drug dealers, gang bangers, and general malcontents, i'd understand it.

On the issue of gun control, I've never understood why the NRA is so against registering guns and universal background checks on all gun purchases regardless of source. Just because some second hand store army helmet wearing weedwacker who lives in the back woods of sh*tsville believes that the government is going to come take his guns away if he has to register them does not make that so.

Then again, those are the same weedwackers who bloviated about how if they had been at Sandy Hook the massacre wouldn'tve happend or if they had been in that Aurora theater the shooting wouldn't have happened. I just roll my eyes and say "keep fantasizing,"

Finally, Commodore and DocLightning, welcome to my RU list, i couldnt agree more.

[Edited 2014-12-31 02:14:14]
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opethfan
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:24 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 35):
Fine and dandy, but we no longer live in 1791. Nor does America.

As if government wrongdoing is inconceivable ever again. You may be satisfied simply being allowed to tick a box on a piece of paper every few years and hope the system plays out as it should, but not all of us do. There are still people alive who remember the Reichstag fire and people being rounded onto trains, so don't act as if we're suddenly so high and mighty that it couldn't possibly reoccur. And the American founding fathers knew that too.

There are much more effective things to question, such as why should we trust the opinions of men who, despite their language of equality and individual rights, owned slaves. Snakily stating an obvious fact with no commentary doesn't do much to further your point.
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:26 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
Does that apply to the rest of the Bill of Rights? The First Amendment, The Fourth?

Yes, they should all be periodically reviewed and if necessary update them to better reflect and serve the society for which they are intended. The details of how that would be achieved and the due process and rigor required for that is a different matter but if we didn't change our moral compasses every once in a while, christians would still be being fed to the lions.

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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:29 am

Quoting Rugger (Reply 38):
I am sorry this happened, but it's still hard to believe that a 2 year old could open a purse, remove a gun, flip the safety off and then have good enough aim to hit a target. The stars must have been in exactly the right alignment for a tragedy like this to take place.

More than likely, the child reached into the purse, grabbed the gun and squeezed.

I suspect the kid was standing in the cart and the purse was in the kids' seat. The purse was probably open...not sure where you're from, but if you are anywhere where crime is a not-to-frequent event, you'll see women routinely leave their purses on the shopping cart, open.

The child reached in, grabbed around for stuff to play with or as just exploring, grabbed the gun and squeezed. I suspect it shot through the purse.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 39):
I've yet to see a mobile phone make a phone call by itself but tell me this, if I am carrying a mobile phone am I more or less likely to make a phone call?

But, you'll only make the call if you handle the phone. The phone, in of itself, does not make the call. You have to 'tell it' to make the call. You can do it through intentional action or unintentional action, but a properly functioning phone will not dial without your input.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 40):
I've never understood why the NRA is so against registering guns

Because a gun registration is the first step to confiscation.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 40):
universal background checks on all gun purchases regardless of source.

Because, without registration a universal background check regulation is useless. And, we have enough laws that are useless or that the government refuses to enforce.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 40):
I also hope that when the child gets older and the subject of the loss of the mother comes up that the child is not told he killed his own mother.

Why not? The child should be told what happened. Of course, it should be at some age appropriate point, but why wouldn't you tell the truth, in a controlled manner?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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NAV30
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:12 am

I hope that what I'm about to say doesn't cause offence. I know and love the United States, I have family there, and have visited it often. I should maybe add that shooting was one of my hobbies for many years.

But I'm shocked by this. It's fairly simple to get a licence here in Australia, if you have a legitimate reason (target-shooting in my case). But you do have to see the police and they at least ask enough questions to make sure that you know the risks involved in owning firearms, and know how to handle the things. And the law allows them to refuse to grant a licence if they have any doubt as to your 'fitness' to own one.

On the face of it, that poor lady, through lack of any sort of 'training,' virtually killed herself. On the basis of the press accounts, that pistol must have been loaded, cocked (i.e. 'one up the spout'), AND had the safety off. No-one who knows anything about guns would have carted it around in that state. It was just an accident waiting to happen.....

The problem could easily be lessened, if not eliminated, simply by ensuring that anyone seeking to 'bear arms' has to spend half-an-hour or so at a police station or army barracks, learning the 'basics' about gun ownership and use. I don't see that that would in any way be 'infringing' peoples' right to bear arms - and my guess is that it would save many lives. Even if the safety-catch had been on, this tragedy would not have happened?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I'm only talking about maybe a half-hour 'infringement.' Which, on the face of it, would save many lives?

[Edited 2014-12-31 03:25:32]
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:32 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
Wow. Please explain. Because it seems like what you're saying is that if someone is poor, they aren't the type of person that should be allowed to have a gun. Why? I submit that a poor person has more need of a firearm than I do.

Because if you can't afford to sit the tests to get a license you probably can't afford to own a legal weapon.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 43):

Because a gun registration is the first step to confiscation.

Prove it. In my life I have registered 14 motor vehicles in 2 countries, neither country has confiscated any of those motor vehicles.

This is what I don't get, to drive a motor vehicle you need to pass tests to get a license, to drive a motor vehicle you need a license, and in many countries to buy and insure a motor vehicle you need a license, why is it so difficult to do the same with firearms in the US, when most other civilised countries (which Americans like to look down upon) can do it?

It would be an identical process.
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:42 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
By the way; there are an estimated 310,000,000 firearms in non-government hands in the US. In 2010, there were 606 deaths from the negligent discharge or accidental discharge of a firearm. If I'm doing the math correctly, that's one accidental death per .00000195 firearms. It is a problem, but it is hardly an epidemic.

That's a statistical fallacy. Like you said:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Sigh...I have yet to see a firearm discharge itself.

Guns don't shoot themselves, so you should better do that math over gun owners.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...guns-but-just-how-many-is-unclear/

Those 300.000.000 guns are owned by just 22-29% (depending on sources) of the population. Meaning the average owner has about 4 guns, compare that with most Western countries where the average civilian user has less than 1,5 guns (and a disproportionate number of them being long guns).

So adjusting by gun ownership, the US still has a rate of accidental gun deaths 50% to 100% higher than Western countries, putting the US in the company of places like Serbia and Yemen.

If you're fine with that, then that's OK, but don't hide behind cooked statistics.
 
JAGflyer
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:09 pm

Please tell me why a person outside of law enforcement needs to carry a concealed weapon? Tell me why a person has to carry a gun while shopping?

Guns kill, guns are meant to kill, and until people get over this whole "I have the right to carry something that is designed to kill in mere seconds" mentality we're going to keep seeing gun-related accidental deaths. Here we have a 2 year old child who will grow up without a mother because she wanted to exercise her god-given right to carry a loaded lethal weapon around in her purse.

[Edited 2014-12-31 04:12:50]
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NAV30
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:28 pm

Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 47):
Here we have a 2 year old child who will grow up without a mother because she wanted to exercise her god-given right to carry a loaded lethal weapon around in her purse.

Have to disagree, Jagflyer. I'm as sure as I can be that she wasn't seeking to exercise any 'God-given right' - that she just meant to safeguard her child.

But she hadn't been taught the first thing about firearms. If she had, she'd have had the pistol ready to hand, in her pocket or on her belt, not on the pram. And the safety would have been on...........
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:48 pm

Statement of the NRA: its not the gun that evil, its the evil person who uses it!

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos