Bongodog1964
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:52 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 39):
I've yet to see a mobile phone make a phone call by itself but tell me this, if I am carrying a mobile phone am I more or less likely to make a phone call?

I've seen plenty of mobile phones make a call by theirselves, and have been on both ends. Forgot to lock the keypad, put phone in pocket and it has dialled a number itself from rubbing on the pocket. Am often on the receipt of such calls.

Quoting Rugger (Reply 38):

I am sorry this happened, but it's still hard to believe that a 2 year old could open a purse, remove a gun, flip the safety off and then have good enough aim to hit a target. The stars must have been in exactly the right alignment for a tragedy like this to take place.

Purse open, safety not on gun, 2 year old in child seat on shopping cart with purse on top. Not so difficult to align the stars then.

It just beggars belief that a civilised Country allows untrained civilians to carry loaded firearms into the local supermarket. One of the most common forms of robbery is purse snatching, having the firearm in the purse isn't the best place to counteract this anyway as you've just armed the robber !!!
 
na
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:22 pm

Only in the US. And again, and again, and again, ad nauseam...
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PanHAM
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:23 pm

Quoting na (Reply 49):
Statement of the NRA: its not the gun that evil, its the evil person who uses it!

exactly, such slogans can backfire.

.
 
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flipdewaf
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:27 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 44):
A well regulated

Funny, that bit gets missed often.
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scbriml
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:59 pm

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 41):
As if government wrongdoing is inconceivable ever again. You may be satisfied simply being allowed to tick a box on a piece of paper every few years and hope the system plays out as it should, but not all of us do.

Paranoia.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 43):
Because a gun registration is the first step to confiscation.

More paranoia. You accept needing a licence to drive a car and to have to pass a test to prove you're competent to use it, but not for guns?   
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flipdewaf
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:54 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 54):
More paranoia. You accept needing a licence to drive a car and to have to pass a test to prove you're competent to use it, but not for guns?

Cars don't kill people, bad drivers kill people
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Mir
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:13 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 43):
Because a gun registration is the first step to confiscation.

No, it's not. There's never been an effort to confiscate guns from those who are entitled to have them in this country. Ever.

There have, however, been efforts to force mentally ill people into asylums. But that hasn't stopped the NRA from wanting a registry of persons with mental illnesses.

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Aesma
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:32 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 54):
More paranoia. You accept needing a licence to drive a car and to have to pass a test to prove you're competent to use it, but not for guns?   

By the way, if you felt the need to topple the government, vehicles would prove as critical if not more as firearms, especially in the US.

And of course, what use will a handgun be against the government ? Shouldn't the NRA rather advocate for battle tank ownership ? Or at least RPGs ?
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BestWestern
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:33 pm

If the child shot someone else, could the mother be charged with manslaughter?
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Ken777
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:01 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Had the mother properly controlled her firearm and/or her child, this would never had happened.

Go to a WalMart and watch how women shop. A high percentage of them will have their purses in their carts.

My guess is that this woman has had that gun in her purse for a long time and doesn't really give a lot of thought to it on a daily basis. Just another simple reason why we have so many Second Amendment accidents in this country.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 14):
We do know that her judgement lapsed.

It lapsed when she bought a gun.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
for not teaching her two year old the proper ways to handle fire arms.

LOL! At 2 you are focused on teaching the kid how to go potty. After learning how to drop a big brown one (my grandson's phrase) into the potty there is time to worry about other things.

Hey, maybe the Wiggles can come up with a song about gun safety. Think that will help?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 15):
to bring a loaded and unlocked gun into Wal-Mart (or any store) is senseless.

Smart store owners have a no gun policy and clear notification of that policy at each entrance. If I had a store there would be a clearly understood sign. If you don't want to leave your gun in your car or at home then done come into my store. Time for major stores to move into that direction with vigor.
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:06 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 48):
Have to disagree, Jagflyer. I'm as sure as I can be that she wasn't seeking to exercise any 'God-given right' - that she just meant to safeguard her child.

This mentality is the problem. Going into a WalMart in Iowa does not require one to be carrying a loaded concealed weapon. She is not safeguarding anyone, it's just another excuse to justify being able to have a weapon. I would be more sympathetic to a person's need to carry a gun if they were going into dangerous situations daily (like a police officer) but a regular lay-person, I disagree.
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:15 pm

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):
Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart  

Wow. It doesn't get any more 'murican that this...
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IADCA
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:19 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 58):
If the child shot someone else, could the mother be charged with manslaughter?

It would be an interesting case. I'm not going to bother looking up Idaho case law, but the relevant statute reads (significant parts bolded):

http://www.legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH40SECT18-4006.htm

18-4006. MANSLAUGHTER DEFINED. Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being including, but not limited to, a human embryo or fetus, without malice. It is of three (3) kinds:
(1) Voluntary -- upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.
(2) Involuntary -- in the perpetration of or attempt to perpetrate any unlawful act, other than those acts specified in section 18-4003(d), Idaho Code; or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection; or in the operation of any firearm or deadly weapon in a reckless, careless or negligent manner which produces death.
(3) Vehicular -- in which the operation of a motor vehicle is a significant cause contributing to the death because of:
(a) The commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to a felony, with gross negligence; or
(b) The commission of a violation of section 18-8004 or 18-8006, Idaho Code; or
(c) The commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to a felony, without gross negligence.
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, any evidence of conviction under subsection (3)(b) of this section shall be admissible in any civil action for damages resulting from the occurrence. A conviction for the purposes of subsection (3)(b) of this section means that the person has pled guilty or has been found guilty, notwithstanding the form of the judgment(s) or withheld judgment(s).


The trouble is she wasn't really "operating" the firearm, just carrying around in her purse, so the last part of (2) is a tough sell. She also faced a substantial and relatively unforeseeable intervening factor that also tends to mitigate against criminal culpability. It would be an interesting case, and fortunately not one that we're going to encounter here.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:42 pm

Obviously she is responsible for the toddler and the firearm? She left both unattended long enough for a tragic accident to happen.

Manslaughter?

Only 650 accidental deaths from gunfire. Only? That's like four Air Asia tragedies.

Gun ownership should come with responsibility, licensing, training and insurance.
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larshjort
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:21 pm

According to a Danish newspaper she had the gun in a purse equipped for concealed carriage with a pocket for the gun. She had left tje purse on the back of the store together with the 2 year old.

Why would you leave your gun unattended, it doesn't help you much to carry a gun if you are leaving it anyway. Anybody could have gotten hold of the purse and take the gun.

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Mir
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting IADCA (Reply 62):
The trouble is she wasn't really "operating" the firearm, just carrying around in her purse, so the last part of (2) is a tough sell.

I would argue the the way in which you carry a firearm is a part of how you operate it. But even if you didn't buy that, you could easily sell the "lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection" clause, as it's clear that leaving the gun unlocked in the purse within reach of a toddler is without due caution.

-Mir
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IADCA
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:38 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 66):
I would argue the the way in which you carry a firearm is a part of how you operate it. But even if you didn't buy that, you could easily sell the "lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection" clause, as it's clear that leaving the gun unlocked in the purse within reach of a toddler is without due caution.

That's precisely the argument on the first part, but I'm genuinely unsure on how it would come out (and as I said, I haven't looked at case law, so it may already have come up).

As for the second, the problem is one of proximate cause and the details of the situation. I tend to think that's the easier way to get a conviction for precisely the reason you state, but I don't think it's a slam-dunk. I don't even know the type of weapon involved here or the exact circumstances (for example, was there a safety that had to get inadvertently disengaged by a toddler; was the gun in a holster that the kid had to remove it from; how much pressure is needed to actually pull the trigger). It's not likely, but it is possible that she actually did take some measure of care and it wasn't as simple as the kid reaching in and pulling the trigger.
 
wingman
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:43 pm

And the NRA wanted toddlers armed in school after Sandy Hook. I'm not sure how smart that is if toddlers can't tell the difference between mass killers, mommies, or teachers.
 
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seb146
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:18 pm

Quoting na (Reply 49):
Statement of the NRA: its not the gun that evil, its the evil person who uses it!

That's right! Guns don't kill people, two year olds kill people!! Let's arm two year olds because only good two year old with guns will be the only ones to defend from bad two year olds with guns!

Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 47):
Please tell me why a person outside of law enforcement needs to carry a concealed weapon? Tell me why a person has to carry a gun while shopping?

Because 'Murica! There is a false line of thinking in the NRA culture that every single person in this country must carry a gun because there are so many bad people out there and the government is forever taking guns away from us all.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 28):
But when a group consistently and steadfastly lobbies against any gun safety measure whatsoever,

You do mean 'gun control measure', right?

So, to follow this logic through, I can simply step into the cockpit of a fully loaded 380 and fly it. No training or experience or licensing needed. Tell me again how needing to show responsibility for owning multiple weapons of mass destruction is a bad thing?
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Ken777
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:32 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 63):
Gun ownership should come with responsibility, licensing, training and insurance.

Sadly the NRA and Gun Nuts would fight some of those factors. "Responsibility"? Their Constitutional Rights are more important than strict responsibility. Training? I assume that the previous Vice President had some sort of training on how to use his shotgun - but maybe not.

Insurance is the new factor that needs to be addressed. Be it private or mandatory (via gun and ammunition sales) there needs to be responsible coverage to address accidental shootings. If the victim ends up, say, a quad then there is going to be a lifetime cost. Medical costs, lost wages. al sorts of other costs that a gun accident can generate - there needs to be insurance to cover those costs over a period that equals the life of the damage caused b the accidental shooting.

As for shootings that are not an accident we need to address that with a federal insurance program that delivers the same performance and is funded by gun sales and sales of ammunition (including re-loading equipment & supplies).
 
blrsea
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:38 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 69):
Insurance is the new factor that needs to be addressed. Be it private or mandatory (via gun and ammunition sales) there needs to be responsible coverage to address accidental shootings. If the victim ends up, say, a quad then there is going to be a lifetime cost. Medical costs, lost wages. al sorts of other costs that a gun accident can generate - there needs to be insurance to cover those costs over a period that equals the life of the damage caused b the accidental shooting.

I totally support full liability insurance for all guns. If I own a car and get into accident, I am liable to pay for the damages I caused. If a person owns a gun and due to their negligence, someone in their family gets hold of the gun and shoots people, why shouldn't they be held liable for damages?
 
opethfan
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:52 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 44):

I consider myself a man capable of compromise and reasoning, and on the outset your proposal sounds quite logical. There are concerns that need to be addressed, such as who is responsible for issuing licenses and testing? Is it the state, who in places like NY and CA, would simply refuse to issue them?

Quoting na (Reply 51):

Ad hominems don't do much but make you sound like a smug so-and-so.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 53):

That's because, if you read the articles written justifying the Constitution (which any adult waltzing into a discussion and criticizing it should have done) like Federalist 46, you'll recognize that the armed citizenry were intended to supplicant the militia. But disregard reading the the source material, acquire 'Murica, right?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 54):
Paranoia.

If you have something worthwhile to say; say it. Because short cliches and dismissing slightly more fleshed out claims referencing recent factual events just makes you appear dense.

As I've said again and again, if you believe that your government is incapable of oppression or unjust violence, go ahead and (try to) keep guns out of your nation. You won't do all that much to reduce violence, since violent crime stems from poverty and stabbings are less sexy than freak gun accidents, but you get to feel smugly superior. If you feel that government certainly is capable of gross injustice, as the founders of the US did, then firearm ownership is a prerequisite for a secure and democratic state, but the challenges of ensuring public safety are greater in certain ways.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:16 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 55):
Cars don't kill people, bad drivers kill people

Just like incompetent untrained gun owners.
 
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zckls04
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:09 pm

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 71):
If you feel that government certainly is capable of gross injustice, as the founders of the US did, then firearm ownership is a prerequisite for a secure and democratic state

Can you explain why?
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:30 pm

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 71):
There are concerns that need to be addressed, such as who is responsible for issuing licenses and testing? Is it the state, who in places like NY and CA, would simply refuse to issue them?

A state can't override a constitutional amendment. This concern is misplaced.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
.It seems to me that quite a few our mass-shootings occur in gun free zones.

And they do elsewhere, so that's a bit of a red herring. The only objection I'm really sensing from the gun folks is "This is a pain in the ass and I don't feel like dealing with it."

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
Control is at the heart of any gun control measure.

It wouldn't be if people could be responsible gun owners.

I don't know why, but you seem to have this notion that any rules are a direct affront to personal freedoms. You need to discard that type of thinking because the fact of the matter is that unregulated mobs cannot, in fact, be trusted with dangerous things. There are reasons why we have govts in the first place and yes, they have the ability to control things, including your 'rights' in any manner required for public safety.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
I have no problem returning all constitutional rights back to non-violent offenders that have served their full sentence and have continued to stay on the right side of the law through their parole period or, say 5 years, whichever is longer.

That's fair, & I do actually agree (within reason). Martha Stewart (non-violent convict) has as much right to defend herself as Zimmerman (hyper violent instigator who managed to escape justice). I will say (while acknowledging that this does not apply to you personally) that most gun enthusiasts completely lose me on this one when they suddenly surmise that someone no longer has 'rights' because of something that has nothing to do with safe operating of a weapon.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
First, we have to define blind. There are different levels. but, for the most part, I don't feel a blind person should have a firearm...at least not outside the home.

Can't aim? You're blind.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
Why shouldn't we? If we believe that it's a right, and it is, and we are placing a burden on the parents by placing polling places in the schools; maybe we should consider something. Maybe we move polling places to some other venue, so the kids can continue in school.

Because rights have responsibilities involved. There's nothing that says the have to be cheap. If the feds want to impose an insurance requirement on a per gun or unit of ammo basis, there's nothing unconstitutional about that.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 34):
elective luxury

A right.

It's not mutually exclusive. There's no need to have a gun = optional luxury. The says nothing about the rights involved.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
Wow. Please explain. Because it seems like what you're saying is that if someone is poor, they aren't the type of person that should be allowed to have a gun. Why? I submit that a poor person has more need of a firearm than I do.

I'm not going to speak for that guy, but I do agree with him. If you can't afford to do something the right way, that by definition means you're less likely to do so.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 43):
Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 40):
I've never understood why the NRA is so against registering guns

Because a gun registration is the first step to confiscation.

Since never at all. In the US, confiscation only happens after an incident.
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ElanusNotatus
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:36 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 67):

Do you have a source for that claim?

The NRA has an Eddie Eagle campaign, aimed at children and is designed to reduce the risk of injury.

Simply put it states, If you see a gun:

Stop!
Don't touch.
Leave the area.
Tell an adult.

Of course there are those who claim it doesn't work or go far enough. But the basis premise is that if children find a gun they should not touch it.

For the published stance on parental responsibility, see http://eddieeagle.nra.org/information-for-parents.aspx

And what did the NRA propose after the Sandy Hook shooting? Was it giving a gun to every toddler? Here is a transcript. Decide for your self.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...-11e2-a6a6-aabac85e8036_story.html

[Edited 2014-12-31 15:51:36]
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scbriml
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 71):
If you have something worthwhile to say; say it.

I did. You're paranoid.

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 71):
Ad hominems don't do much but make you sound like a smug so-and-so.
Quoting Opethfan (Reply 71):
Because short cliches and dismissing slightly more fleshed out claims referencing recent factual events just makes you appear dense.

Pot. Kettle. Black.   
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wingman
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:48 am

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 75):
Do you have a source for that claim?

Completely tongue in cheek. Guns are fine, but not as they are distributed or regulated in the United States today. Our system is broken. The numbers speak for themselves. The comparisons to other advanced nations speak for themselves. Under the original Constitution women weren't allowed to vote and white men were allowed to buy and sell niggers. Times change, people change, our Constitution changes. The only thing that doesn't change is stupidity, and the NRA and its supporters are a unique and massive bastion of stupidity.

The day after 27 children were slaughtered by a mentally deranged child (was Lanza still technically a child?), the NRA came out and said the solution was more guns. And nothing, absolutely nothing, was done to change the distribution or regulation of weapons in this country. The NRA preys on the weak-minded and says Democrats are coming to get their guns..and they believe it. And yet in our history there is not a single time that our government has ever made an attempt to do such a thing. When you have a powerful organization driven by insanity that is able to control the minds of 60MM irrational voters there's no hope anything will ever change.

PS: I trust people will understand the historical context of my use of the "n" word. It's meant to remind people of the terrible things we once did and how changing the Constitution made us a better nation.

[Edited 2014-12-31 16:52:02]
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:17 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 48):
But she hadn't been taught the first thing about firearms. If she had, she'd have had the pistol ready to hand, in her pocket or on her belt, not on the pram. And the safety would have been on...........

Actually, off body carry is a perfectly acceptable way to carry a firearm, so long as safeguards are in place to control the firearm. Safeguards that this woman ignored. As for the safety, not every firearm has a safety. I've no idea what kind of firearm this was, but I suspect that there was no safety.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 58):
If the child shot someone else, could the mother be charged with manslaughter?

I thought about that and, like stated, will depend on state law and, quite simply, the aggressiveness of the prosecutor.

Quoting Mir (Reply 65):

I would argue the the way in which you carry a firearm is a part of how you operate it

Agreed.

Quoting wingman (Reply 67):
And the NRA wanted toddlers armed in school after Sandy Hook.

Source?

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 71):
Ad hominems don't do much but make you sound like a smug so-and-so.

I've stopped responding to ad hominem attacks. All they do is weaken an argument and make the person tossing them around seem silly.

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 71):
I consider myself a man capable of compromise and reasoning, and on the outset your proposal sounds quite logical. There are concerns that need to be addressed, such as who is responsible for issuing licenses and testing? Is it the state, who in places like NY and CA, would simply refuse to issue them?

I believe there are court cases on both coasts pending on whether or not the restrictions in "may-issue" states are justifiable in light of Heller and McDonald.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 74):
The only objection I'm really sensing from the gun folks is "This is a pain in the ass and I don't feel like dealing with it."

And, that can also be a valid concern, but to tell you the truth, my concern is the over criminalization of society. Let me give you an example:

I have a concealed carry permit issued in Kentucky. Let's say that I'm driving in Indiana, where my permit is valid. Further, I drive into a school zone, as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(25). At that point, I am violating federal law.

Like I said, gun free zones exist to heap additional charges on a subject if an arrest is made.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 74):
There's no need to have a gun
Need is subjective.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 74):
I'm not going to speak for that guy, but I do agree with him. If you can't afford to do something the right way, that by definition means you're less likely to do so.

So, in your world only the those that can afford to buy a gun, obtain training, obtain a license (and pay the associated fees) and obtain insurance should be allowed to own a firearm? So, the poor are shut out of a constitutional right?

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 74):
Since never at all. In the US, confiscation only happens after an incident.

I'll refer you to this. Is it hard to assume that it can happen again?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:28 am

Quoting wingman (Reply 77):
Times change, people change, our Constitution changes.

Fantastically well said wingman.

When it comes to the constitution and discussion of amending it and bringing it more in line with "todays world", your immediately shut down.

Idiotic thinking. Nothing stays the same forever, times change, and things that were once relevant, are no longer.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 78):
I've no idea what kind of firearm this was, but I suspect that there was no safety.

Oh boy..... just the thing you want to caring around in your hand bay all day. A gun with no safety catch !

Didn't you say you felt the woman wasn't stupid and the term used to describe her, was to harsh ?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 78):

So, in your world only the those that can afford to buy a gun, obtain training, obtain a license (and pay the associated fees) and obtain insurance should be allowed to own a firearm? So, the poor are shut out of a constitutional right?

Yes. Not everything in this fine o'l world of our's, is fair, just or whatever
Not everybody is equal.

If you can afford to buy and operate a gun, then you can afford to buy a license. If you cant, you have no business owning a gun.
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:30 am

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 71):
I consider myself a man capable of compromise and reasoning, and on the outset your proposal sounds quite logical. There are concerns that need to be addressed, such as who is responsible for issuing licenses and testing?

I wasn't actually talking about 'licenses and testing' etc., Opethfan, as I know how difficult that would be to introduce in the USA. I was concentrating on attending to the obvious cause of this accident, which was clearly a matter of the woman concerned having no idea at all of how a gun worked - she presumably had it loaded and cocked, and left it where the child couldn't fail both to notice it and to literally 'play with it.'

All I was suggesting, as a 'first step,' was that everyone intending to purchase a gun should go to the local police station and undergo a (quite brief) interview on how to handle guns (and what NOT to do with them, including leaving them within reach of children, leaving the safety off etc.- and, of course, aiming and firing them. And, above all carrying them safely. It's quite clear that the poor lady in this case had no idea about such things. If she HAD known, she'd still be alive and well?

I don't think even the NRA could reasonably object to that, in light of this most recent tragedy (which was only too 'avoidable')?

[Edited 2014-12-31 17:44:58]
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:44 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 79):
Oh boy..... just the thing you want to caring around in your hand bay all day. A gun with no safety catch !

I suspect that there are more guns in current production without a safety than there are with a safety. A gun without a safety is designed to be safely stored/carried as is.

Would it surprise you to learn that if a police department has Glocks (which, I believe is still the most widely issued firearm type in the US) issued, there is no safety?

I routinely carry one of 2 firearms. One has a safety, the other does not. It does not affect how I carry the firearm.

The only safety that really matters is the one between the ears...and in this particular case, it was faulty.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 79):
Not everybody is equal.

No, but everyone is supposed to have equal opportunity.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 80):
It's quite clear that the poor lady in this case had no idea about such things.

No, it's quite clear that this lady had a lapse in judgement. Whether that lapse was a recurring thing or a one-time thing is something we don't know.

The article says she had an Idaho concealed carry permit. In order to get a permit in Idaho you must go through a state approved training course. Having been through 3 such courses in 2 states, I can't imagine that course did not cover leaving the firearm unattended.

[Edited 2014-12-31 17:45:36]

[Edited 2014-12-31 17:46:29]
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:42 am

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 12):
Thank you for being the sole poster in this thread hoisting an Australian flag but lacking the traditional Ozzie arrogance we've seen here

I appreciated that, some of your countrymen are in fact very ignorant on firearms.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
If she had not decided to go to Wal-mart, this would never had happened. If she hadn't gotten out of bed that morning, this wouldn't have happened. If she hadn't had a child, this wouldn't have happened. You can go back as far as you want...the root cause here is that she failed to properly control her firearm and she paid the price.

If she was still a virgin this wouldn't have happened either....We can go all the way back in this argument....if her mother kept her virginity this wouldn't have happened either.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
The NRA, just like the AAA is an advocacy group. Both encourage the safe and responsible use of their 'target' activity. Both do their best to ensure that everyone that who can participate in the activity is able to participate in the activity.

Exactly. Spot on.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
When I see it, I do something about it. In fact, this year I will be taking the NRA basic pistol instructors course so I can help make the activity safer

Awesome, good luck with that.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):Could it be because the NRA has made a concerted effort to ban ANY AND ALL regulation with regards to firearm safety or training? Doc, the NRA is all about safety and training.

Bull---- The NRA is one of the great civil rights groups in this planet. And they are very safety aware and pro education. Makes for fewer incidents.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 28): But when a group consistently and steadfastly lobbies against any gun safety measure whatsoever, You do mean 'gun control measure', right?

Bull----They have lobbied for smarter gun laws. Not bans.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 34):
Guns are a completely elective luxury that no one has a verifiable need for

Oh, spend a year in a village in my home state, you wouldn't be talking that stupid.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 36):
Why in the world shouldn't it be onerous to be allowed to own a gun.

Why should exercising a civil right be onerous"

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32): My guess is if someone can't afford to go to a gun control course is probably the type of person you don't want owning a gun.Wow. Please explain. Because it seems like what you're saying is that if someone is poor, they aren't the type of person that should be allowed to have a gun. Why? I submit that a poor person has more need of a firearm than I do.

It is just bigotry on KiwiRobs part. Clearly somebody who grew up with the silver spoon..

Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 47):
Please tell me why a person outside of law enforcement needs to carry a concealed weapon?

Actually based on the number of police shootings they are probably the ones that should be disarmed first.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 54):
You accept needing a licence to drive a car and to have to pass a test to prove you're competent to use it, but not for guns?

Driving a car isn't a civil right. Owning a firearm is.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 58):
times:If the child shot someone else, could the mother be charged with manslaughter?

It is an interesting question. I think that is a real possibility.

Quoting Mir (Reply 65):
I would argue the the way in which you carry a firearm is a part of how you operate it.

Any what differences in your mind would make a difference?

Quoting wingman (Reply 67):
posted Wed Dec 31 2014 10:43:43 your local time (8 hours 33 minutes 25 secs ago) and read 342 times:And the NRA wanted toddlers armed in school after Sandy Hook.

Bull---- I find it amazing some people still believe that tripe.

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 71):
There are concerns that need to be addressed, such as who is responsible for issuing licenses and testing? Is it the state, who in places like NY and CA, would simply refuse to issue them?

Probably the same people that made up the questions for poll tests to see if you where smart enough to vote back in the 60's.

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 74):
This concern is misplaced.

Hardly, We have municipalities in California, Chicago and Washington DC that are working on work arounds against rulings that nullified their illegal gun bans.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 79):
A gun with no safety catch !

Actually a lot of automatics have what is know as a de-cocker not a safety. Plus neither of my single action revolvers have a safety. They do have transfer bars to prevent accidental firing and my holsters for them have a strap that locks down over the hammer to keep it from moving. But you probably don't care about that.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 80):
Quoting Opethfan (Reply 71):I consider myself a man capable of compromise and reasoning, and on the outset your proposal sounds quite logical. There are concerns that need to be addressed, such as who is responsible for issuing licenses and testing? I wasn't actually talking about 'licenses and testing' etc

Probably the same people that made up the questions for poll tests to see if you where smart enough to vote back in the 60's. Those where found to be unreasonable, and unconstitutional, the same for these stupid licensing requirements.
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
I do have a problem with people that do not properly handle firearms.

I'm not an American and I don't give a damn what US gun laws are; likewise I feel the non-Americans here that are hectoring you would be more respected if they focused on problems in their own countries or the world of much greater threat to us all than crime or gun laws in America.

With that said, I think if you and the NRA want to seriously protect your gun ownership then you have to start making it your mission to take responsibility for problems that aren't really your fault.


Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):
A right.

***It would be a great victory for freedom and very pleasing to see America retain its liberal gun ownership laws*** (... and achieve an overall murder/violent crime rate comparable to other first world nations.)

I suggest it's incumbent on gun owners like you to NOT just sit in the gun-friendly confines of Kentucky hating on the anti-gun people, aka Democrats, IMO you should be proactively taking away any justification for gun control.


Quoting fr8mech (Reply 81):
I routinely carry one of 2 firearms.

Although I am fine with my country's gun control, I'm happy to see you unapologetic for the gun policy in America. I respect very much your diligent defense to the groupthink of the non-Americans on this issue. For Americans, of course, it should be actively debated. I say to those who aren't American: make yourselves and YOUR country perfect before critisising the Americans.

The America-haters who show up to bitch on every issue; guns, Cuba, Israel, immigration, healthcare and whatever:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 79):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 72):
Quoting photopilot (Reply 8):

...................................................are desperately upset that you have such confidence in your success and way of life - there is deep resentment towards you for not proclaiming some small, politically irrelevant and globally powerless nation (who live without guns) supreme to your own.

Carry on & Happy New Year!


Pu
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:24 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 81):
No, it's quite clear that this lady had a lapse in judgement. Whether that lapse was a recurring thing or a one-time thing is something we don't know.

All the signs are, fr8mech, that she just plain did not realise the dangers of leaving a loaded (and presumably cocked) weapon within reach of a (naturally-curious) two-year-old? One suspects that the kid had been looking at this 'shining/interesting' object for months (and had very possibly seen it being fired in practice sessions)?

I STILL think that an informal (and non-binding) police interview prior to final purchase might do a lot of good? Might even be a good idea to give the 'subject' the opportunity to fire the thing before purchase? I have two lady neighbours who have (legal/registered) pistols of much bigger calibre than they need - on the rare occasions that they've fired them in practice, they apparently scared themselves half to death.............  

[Edited 2014-12-31 19:28:55]
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 4:56 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 84):
All the signs are, fr8mech, that she just plain did not realise the dangers of leaving a loaded

Quite possible. Maybe this was her first 2 year old. Or, her kids' level of curiosity at 2 were different. I know my 2 kids were completely different at 2.

Again, she was a concealed permit holder and Idaho requires an approved firearms safety course before a concealed permit is issued.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 84):
(and had very possibly seen it being fired in practice sessions)?

Doubtful. In fact, had the kid been present at a practice session, he would probably be scared to death of the gun because of the noise it produces.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 84):
l (and non-binding)

Then why bother? You can have the same conversation with a friend, the guy at the gun store, the person at the range or a family member. In fact, I'm sure those conversations happen all the time.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 84):
Might even be a good idea to give the 'subject' the opportunity to fire the thing before purchase? I

I try to fire the same or grossly similar firearm before I buy one. But, you don't always have that opportunity. I once bought a gun that felt great in the store, concealed well and felt "right". It got good reviews. Took it to the range and put 100 rounds through it and sold it to the range (not the place I bought it) the same day. Couldn't stand the thing.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:07 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 85):
Doubtful.

Of course it's 'doubtful,' fr8mech. But I can't think of any more likely scenario' which would amount to a two-year-old aiming at, and killing, his own mother? On the face of it, he just about MUST have seen a gun being cocked, aimed, and fired, at some stage?
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:19 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 86):
But I can't think of any more likely scenario' which would amount to a two-year-old aiming at, and killing, his own mother? On the face of it, he just about MUST have seen a gun being cocked, aimed, and fired, at some stage?

Not really. It's incorrect to think a gun must be cocked. Some guns must be cocked. Some don't. A decent primer on triggers can be found on Wiki.

I suspect that the kid gained access to the gun, grabbed it and pulled the trigger, because guns are designed in an ergonomic fashion. It feels natural to hold a firearm in the proper manner. Did he point it at mom or did he fire it through the bag? I wouldn't be surprised either way.

Again, I've no idea what kind of firearm was in the bag. I suspect a double-action only firearm, but their trigger pulls are kinda heavy, but I'm thinking a 2 year old may be able to manage it. It may be a revolver, but those triggers are real heavy to fire from double-action.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:24 am

[quote=NAV30,reply=84]I STILL think that an informal (and non-binding) police interview prior to final purchase might do a lot of good? Might even be a good idea to give the 'subject' the opportunity to fire the thing before purchase? I have two lady neighbours who have (legal/registered) pistols of much bigger calibre than they need - on the rare occasions that they've fired them in practice, they apparently scared themselves half to death.............  

[quote]

That's something that the police are legally prohibited from doing. Federal firearms law actually prohibits the use or collection of data to create any firearms database. Case law generally establishes that law enforcement cannot interview a private person without probable cause that they have committed or are likely to commit a criminal offense.

There are cases currently working their ways through the federal courts to establish what conditions a state may use in determining who may be issued a concealed carry permit. It has been generally understood in the legal community that the Constitution permits. Some states (such as Arizona) do not require non-prohibited persons to obtain a permit to carry a concealed weapon. Arizona does issue permits for the purpose of reciprocity and to protect citizens from liability related to the Gun Free School Zone Act.

As for need, there are many of us (specifically in rural areas) who do have a legitimate self defense need. The county I reside in is larger by land area than the State of New Jersey. Much of it is sparsely populated at best and borders the international border with Mexico. We have armed felons crossing that border at all hours, smuggling illegal immigrants and contraband into the country. If I am anywhere west of the Tucson metropolitan area, I'll be lucky if a 911 call is responded to within half an hour. Until the law shows up, I'm on my own defending myself.

Then there's the issue of the National Instant Criminal Records Check System (NICS), which all Federal Firearms Licensees are required to use. It has a lot of good information and a lot of bad or missing information. A lot of the data is wrong because the jurisdiction that supplied it it NICS never bothered to update it. Very little mental health information is put in-only those committed by a court. Private care providers are bound by the Health Information Privacy Protection Act which prohibits them from releasing certain medical information without the consent of the patient. At the court that I work for, I routinely hear from our criminal department about having to update records because someone who had his rights restored tried to buy a gun from a FFL and NICS denied him based on inaccurate information.

As an NRA member, I must clarify that we are a lobby that supports and defends the rights of over 5,000,000 gun owners-the vast majority of whom are very conscious about promoting gun safety amongst our ranks and in the public. We encourage our members to increase their levels of knowledge, insure their collections and to purchase liability insurance. James Porterfield has been very effective in leading our group and successfully advocating for our members. We agree that some regulation of firearms is necessary. However, those regulations must be well thought out so that they will increase public safety without placing unreasonable burdens on the law abiding firearms owners. Law abiding gun owners are not the problem-armed criminals are. Criminals by their nature will do as they please regardless of what laws are passed-that's why we call them criminals.
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:51 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 73):
Can you explain why?

A sovereign nation is only sovereign for as long as its sovereignty is not called into question. When it is, an army is needed to defend that sovereignty and those rights. Democracy is the same... it's there, until "communists" burn down the Reichstag, or some other terrible event happens and it's used as an excuse to suspend the people's democratic rights.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 76):
Pot. Kettle. Black.   

Not in the slightest. I addressed your points, not simply the person. My jab at Australians was an ad hominem, and I'll address that later in this reply.

Quoting Pu (Reply 83):
***It would be a great victory for freedom and very pleasing to see America retain its liberal gun ownership laws*** (... and achieve an overall murder/violent crime rate comparable to other first world nations.)

If only the gun-control people were as vocal about things like the remnants of apartheid, gross incarceration, or school standings...

Quoting L-188 (Reply 82):
I appreciated that, some of your countrymen are in fact very ignorant on firearms.

Of course, my nation evolved in the same way as Australia did... peaceful devolution of power, rather than a violent revolution based on liberal philosophy. Add in the fact that a lot of Canadians see their national identity as "like America, but..." and there's a similar level of arrogance. It isn't a wash here as it seems to be in the UK and Australia, though.
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 8:56 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 82):
Driving a car isn't a civil right. Owning a firearm is.

Yes, I know. Clearly, the priorities are wrong.

I've yet to hear a reasoned argument why training/testing and a licence should not be required in order for one to exercise that right. But hey, it's perfectly fine to let mentally unstable and blind people have guns because it's their right.
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:06 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 90):
I've yet to hear a reasoned argument why training/testing and a licence should not be required in order for one to exercise that right.

Once again, if someone chooses to exercise their Second Amendment Rights, yet is unable to afford the training/testing/licensing, what redress does he have?

Or, are you comfortable, like some posting here, in preventing the poor from exercising a constitutional right?

Forcing someone to pay to exercise their right is analogous to a poll tax. And, those are, as we all know, unconstitutional.

Please note, that the courts have ruled that a state may impose certain restriction on its citizens, but may not prevent them from owning a firearm. Many states, while having no restrictions beyond what the federal requires for owning a firearm, they do have restrictions on carrying a firearm, whether open or concealed. Many states require training and background checks before they grant a permit to carry.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
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You are not entitled to a public safe space.
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:48 am

I understand that the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution is based on our Bill of Rights.

We have obviously binned that, as we don't need to protect ourselves against Catholics any more, and haven't for a very long time. Which is just as well, as I am Catholic!

Anyway, my point is that firstly, constitutions can be amended, and are, obviously, as the the part of the constitution in question is itself an amendment.

My second point is do we really think that the American Founding fathers intended the carnage the population seem intent on imposing on itself in the name of 'rights'? I doubt it very much.

Thirdly, the interpretation of the amendment is open to question. It could mean 2 ways, and like all old legislation it's interpretation is guess work to an extent.

The argument that guns don't kill is juvenile and stupid, guns + people kill, so separate them, unless there's a very good reason to have one. I'm sorry, but carrying firearms in the US is more about "Because I can" than need. I don't doubt that in some areas there may be a good reason, but not all.

I am going to Las Vegas in a few weeks time, I don't feel any need to run into the nearest shop and buy a gun when I arrive. Nor did I feel the need to carry a gun when I walked the streets as a Policeman here, in spite of a rise in use of firearms against Police. In both of these circumstances I wouldn't want one because I don't need one, nor do most US Citizens.

If the NRA are so concerned about safety and inclusion, given that the US seems hell bent on preserving this 'right' (if indeed that is what it is), then they would be providing free training, they aren't though are they? From whats been said here, they say the state should do that. Odd that you want the state to train people to use a gun, but don 't want the state to pay for the aftermath in terms of health care.

So we'll go on hearing about these cases, because it's far more important to have a right to look good than it is for some people to be alive who have died unnecessarily because of this amendment.
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:49 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 91):
Once again, if someone chooses to exercise their Second Amendment Rights, yet is unable to afford the training/testing/licensing, what redress does he have?

So they can afford a gun and ammo (more often than not, several of them) but not a safety course or insurance?

What happened to freedoms coming with responsibilities?
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:14 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 91):
Once again, if someone chooses to exercise their Second Amendment Rights, yet is unable to afford the training/testing/licensing, what redress does he have?

But they're not so poor that they can't afford to buy a gun and, presumably, ammunition in the first place? Seriously, you're saying there's nobody in America that can't afford to buy a gun and ammo?   

Given the exercising of the right to possess a gun involves expense in the first place, I'm still not hearing a reasoned argument against the requirement for testing/licencing.

I'm sure the NRA would be delighted to sponsor the testing and licencing of the poorest members of society. Or the GOP could introduce Guncare(tm).
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 2:51 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 78):
And, that can also be a valid concern, but to tell you the truth, my concern is the over criminalization of society. Let me give you an example:

I have a concealed carry permit issued in Kentucky. Let's say that I'm driving in Indiana, where my permit is valid. Further, I drive into a school zone, as defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(25). At that point, I am violating federal law.

§ 922(q)(2)(b)(iii) gives you an out there - just have the firearm unloaded and in a locked container and you're fine.

If you want to argue that you should be able to carry concealed in your car while passing through a school zone in a state where your permit is recognized, that's another issue, and I wouldn't have a problem with that. But when I hear "overcriminalization" I tend to think of the government trying to trap people, and I don't really see that here - they've given people an easy way to comply with the law, since a locked box for the car should be something every gun owner has if they plan to be driving around with their gun.

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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:02 pm

So, nobody for my proposal of free ownership of RPGs, battletanks, and let me throw F-22s in there too, since we're on an aviation website ? Only flimsy handguns that will do nothing against the big, bad ugly government ?
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:28 pm

All this arguing about guns being good vs guns being evil is find bug what about the most ridiculous part of the story? Why would they make everyone leave the store and then close it for almost 24 hours? Rope off the scene, cart away the corpse and mop up the blood, problem solved in about 15 minutes.
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:52 pm

Ironically, I bet one reason for this woman to possess handgun in public was to protect her children.
She could be in a hostile relationship, she works or her husband has a job with serious security issues or live in an isolated area, so having a handgun could be considered reasonable. She also apparently had an interest in guns, and that is legal.
Although her handbag had a pocket for a gun, you don't want it to be so difficult to get to one might get killed first trying to get to it. Sadly that made it easier for the child to access it. Kids are always going to go into mon's purses out of curiosity, looking for candy or something to play with. Sadly in this case this was her handgun.
 
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RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 5:52 pm

Quoting Opethfan (Reply 89):
Add in the fact that a lot of Canadians see their national identity as "like America, but..." and there's a similar level of arrogance. It isn't a wash here as it seems to be in the UK and Australia, though.

Yeah, I', quarter myself, but I will point out that US firearms laws can be effected by what happens south of the border in Canada. Alaska had to eliminate their requirement that aircraft have a firearm as part of their survival kits because if put pilots in jeopardy if they crossed the border.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 90):
But hey, it's perfectly fine to let mentally unstable and blind people have guns because it's their right.

See here is another example of an argument born of ignorance. One of the loudest groups for tightening up mental health laws was the NRA after Sandy Hook. But since the nut house people can't seem to get their act together how can we trust them?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 94):
I'm still not hearing a reasoned argument against the requirement for testing/licencing.

You probably don't see the reasoned argument against poll testing either.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 96):
So, nobody for my proposal of free ownership of RPGs, battletanks, and let me throw F-22s in there too, since we're on an aviation website ? Only flimsy handguns that will do nothing against the big, bad ugly government ?

Aesma, all you did with that suggest is make yourself look like either an arse or a moron. Maybe you ought to familiarize yourself with BATF classifications before running your mouth.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

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