User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12261
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:23 pm

My moronic proposal points out the fact that the main argument of the NRA and gun advocates, based on the "sacred" constitution, that people should be able to own arms so that they can overthrow the government, doesn't make sense, since they concentrate on owning ineffective arms. You're free to demonstrate that I'm wrong.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12544
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 82):

It is just bigotry on KiwiRobs part. Clearly somebody who grew up with the silver spoon..

Nothing of the sort, if you can't afford to take driver training and get a license you can't drive a car, I don't see it as any different in gun ownership, if you can't afford a license and training you can't own a gun.

Quoting Pu (Reply 83):
are desperately upset that you have such confidence in your success and way of life - there is deep resentment towards you for not proclaiming some small, politically irrelevant and globally powerless nation (who live without guns) supreme to your own.

It's actually the opposite Pu, I feel sorry for them, the vast majority of people in the US live a far worse life than I do, with far less freedoms.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 91):
Once again, if someone chooses to exercise their Second Amendment Rights, yet is unable to afford the training/testing/licensing, what redress does he have?

If they can't afford the training they probably can't afford to buy a gun, or should the state give them one for free?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 91):
Or, are you comfortable, like some posting here, in preventing the poor from exercising a constitutional right?

It's a stupid right whose time has long been up.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 7:58 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 83):
are desperately upset that you have such confidence in your success and way of life - there is deep resentment towards you for not proclaiming some small, politically irrelevant and globally powerless nation (who live without guns) supreme to your own.

What a load of BS

"Powerless nation and politically irrelevant " ?

Yeah right, that's why America comes begging for help and assistance, in its massively unsuccessful crusade, to bring democracy to the world. !

Mate, Id rather live here in a peaceful, free society, and all with out guns.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3216
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:05 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 96):
So, nobody for my proposal of free ownership of RPGs, battletanks, and let me throw F-22s in there too, since we're on an aviation website ? Only flimsy handguns that will do nothing against the big, bad ugly government ?

All of the above are legal to own within the US. So now, what's your point?

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11815
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:33 pm

Quoting bjcc (Reply 92):
My second point is do we really think that the American Founding fathers intended the carnage the population seem intent on imposing on itself in the name of 'rights'? I doubt it very much.

Didn't many cities in the old west require people to leave their guns at the gates?
http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~rcollins/scholarship/guns.html

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18242
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:44 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 99):
See here is another example of an argument born of ignorance. One of the loudest groups for tightening up mental health laws was the NRA after Sandy Hook.

So now anyone buying a gun is subject to a mental health check? I didn't realise that was happening.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 99):
You probably don't see the reasoned argument against poll testing either.

Not sure what that has to do with the desirability of gun ownership being licenced and tested.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7883
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:03 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 95):
§ 922(q)(2)(b)(iii) gives you an out there - just have the firearm unloaded and in a locked container and you're fine.

It does, but that's not how I, or the vast majority of folks that carry a concealed weapon carry their guns in the car, unless the statute demands it. It makes no sense.

Quoting Mir (Reply 95):
since a locked box for the car should be something every gun owner has if they plan to be driving around with their gun.

If they plan on storing the gun in the car when they will not or can not carry the gun on their person for various reason, then a lockbox is desirable.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 101):
If they can't afford the training they probably can't afford to buy a gun,

I suspect I can buy a gun for less than $100. Probably less than $50.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 101):
It's a stupid right whose time has long been up.

So is the right for the uninformed to be allowed to vote. I suggest we bring back knowledge tests before we allow someone to register to vote.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 104):
Didn't many cities in the old west require people to leave their guns at the gates?

Many cities in the old (and not-so-old) South also put blacks in the back of the bus, made them drink from different water fountains, etc. What's your point?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 105):
So now anyone buying a gun is subject to a mental health check? I didn't realise that was happening.

It isn't and shouldn't be. But, if someone has already been adjudicated as mentally defective, that should be part of the NICS system.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 21428
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:05 am

Quoting ElanusNotatus (Reply 75):
Of course there are those who claim it doesn't work or go far enough. But the basis premise is that if children find a gun they should not touch it.

As we discuss a two year old who found a gun and shot a "responsible" gun carrying adult.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21):
The NRA, just like the AAA is an advocacy group. Both encourage the safe and responsible use of their 'target' activity.

AAA buys how many Congress people a year to get pro AAA legislation passed?

Quoting scbriml (Reply 105):
So now anyone buying a gun is subject to a mental health check? I didn't realise that was happening.

Unfortunately, it is not happening. According to NRA and their supporters, that violates Second Amendment rights somehow and takes away guns from every responsible gun owner in the country.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3216
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:05 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 106):
It isn't and shouldn't be. But, if someone has already been adjudicated as mentally defective, that should be part of the NICS system.

It is certainly one of the questions on a 4473. One of the things that I'd also point out is that, even in the states that have "legalized" marijuana, anyone who partakes can not truthfully pass a 4473 and purchase a firearm.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7883
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:49 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 108):
It is certainly one of the questions on a 4473. One of the things that I'd also point out is that, even in the states that have "legalized" marijuana, anyone who partakes can not truthfully pass a 4473 and purchase a firearm.

Yes, it is, but let's take that to its end-point. The strength of the 4473 relies on the answers provided by the applicant and the information contained in NICS system. If the NICS system does not contain information concerning whether or not the applicant is mentally defective, then the question really does not matter. It only matters in an after-the-fact fashion. If someone is picked up with a gun and it is determined that he obtained the gun by falsifying the 4473, then he can be charged as such. But, we have also seen that administrations, past and present, do not aggressively investigate or prosecute these types of violations.


Quoting seb146 (Reply 107):
Unfortunately, it is not happening. According to NRA and their supporters, that violates Second Amendment rights somehow and takes away guns from every responsible gun owner in the country.

Who will pay for the exam? Who sets the parameters? Can the administrator of the exam be held civilly or criminally liable if he screws up?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:07 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 109):
The strength of the 4473 relies on the answers provided by the applicant and the information contained in NICS system.

And whether or not a 4473 is actually done in connection with a purchase.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3216
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:18 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 110):
And whether or not a 4473 is actually done in connection with a purchase.

A 4473 is required on any non-private sale. So, do you have evidence that non-private sales are going on without 4473s being done?

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:18 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 109):
Who will pay for the exam?

The applicant should pay for the exam, just as when you apply for a drivers licence and sit an exam, you, the applicant pays.

More news emerges about the family

"Dead mum had a passion for guns"

so, one would/could be forgiven for thinking that perhaps this woman was unaware of the dangers of carrying around a gun with no safety catch. ?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11381145

[Edited 2015-01-01 20:25:14]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7883
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:33 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 112):
The applicant should pay for the exam, just as when you apply for a drivers licence and sit an exam, you, the applicant pays.

So, once again, you're ok with someone having to pay in order to exercise a constitutional right? I don't have a problem with someone having to purchase a firearm if they choose to exercise the right. I do have a problem with the government mandating additional costs and/or restrictions that may shut-out those that can not afford those costs. At some point, the burden becomes onerous.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 112):
so, one would/could be forgiven for thinking that perhaps this woman was unaware of the dangers of carrying around a gun with no safety catch. ?

There is no real added danger from a firearm that has no safety, so long as the firearm is designed that way. The danger comes from the unauthorized access to the firearm, as is the case here. She failed to properly secure her firearm.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3216
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:35 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 112):
so, one would/could be forgiven for thinking that perhaps this woman was unaware of the dangers of carrying around a gun with no safety catch. ?

Mechanical safeties are a poor thing to count on. The only true safety is what's between the ears.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:54 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 112):
so, one would/could be forgiven for thinking that perhaps this woman was unaware of the dangers of carrying around a gun with no safety catch.

Actually not one of my single actions have a safety catch.

Once again another example of somebody ignorant of firearms and how they function that is making an incorrect blanket statement.

I don't mean that as an insult but you are making arguments from a point of ignorance
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 4:55 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 113):
I do have a problem with the government mandating additional costs and/or restrictions that may shut-out those that can not afford those costs

Hope you apply that laudable sentiment to voter ID laws as well......
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7883
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:01 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 116):
Hope you apply that laudable sentiment to voter ID laws as well.

I do. The various state governments should provide ID, without cost, to people who are eligible to vote in that state.

And, if you do a search, you'll find that I have consistently held that position.

[Edited 2015-01-01 21:03:02]
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:26 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 117):
I do. The various state governments should provide ID, without cost, to people who are eligible to vote in that state.

And, if you do a search, you'll find that I have consistently held that position.

I am pleased to learn I have misjudged you. I wish more shared your views.

Given that position, is it not also possible that the state governments could do the same w.r.t. a firearm examination?
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 21428
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:53 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 118):
is it not also possible that the state governments could do the same w.r.t. a firearm examination?

Spend more of our tax dollars on a privilege (fire arms ownership) and less on a right (voting)? How would the Founding Fathers feel about that?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 109):
Who will pay for the exam? Who sets the parameters? Can the administrator of the exam be held civilly or criminally liable if he screws up?

Who will pay for the exam? Considering it costs hundreds of dollars for a person to become a CPA, I would hope hundreds of dollars. But, I am not talking about an extensive written exam. I am simply talking about an exam that determines whether a person is purchasing a gun to own a piece of history or for survival or if they simply hate that their neighbor plants too many petunias because petunias scream far too much at 2AM or they shop at Wal-Mart with an unlocked pistol with their 2 year old.

Can the administrator of a CPA exam be held liable if you are audited by the IRS for your CPA doing your taxes? As far as who sets the parameters: the "let the states decide" rule of thumb has worked oh, so well. Look at the low, low crime rate in Chicago and the rate of children being murdered by other children.

That is what right-wingers can not get over about the rest of Americans: a huge majority of Americans actually do not care if people own guns. We just want *RESPONSIBLE* people to own guns. Not just any person who says "I wanna own a gun." See: Sandy Hook. NRA and their supporters say they want "reasonable" and "sensible" gun ownership regulation but, when anything is set forth by *ANY* member of Congress, the NRA and their supporters are outraged, OUTRAGED, I tell you, that anyone would dare trample the Second Amendment and how dare anyone take away Second Amendment rights afforded us by our Forefathers!!!
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7883
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:24 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 118):
Given that position, is it not also possible that the state governments could do the same w.r.t. a firearm examination?

Yes, it is. But, that only covers the cost aspect of the problem. What about where the bar is set? Yes, you'll have psychiatrists and psychologists determine what set of personality traits may or may not be cause for concern, but it will be politicians that set the final approval parameters. I'm not comfortable with that.

Further, say someone is considered ineligible to own a firearm because he is unable to pass this firearms examination; are you comfortable with this person being allowed to do other things? Drive a school bus? Be a doctor? A CPA? A teacher?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 119):
Spend more of our tax dollars on a privilege (fire arms ownership)

The Supreme Court and The Founders disagree with you. Keeping and bearing arms (not just firearms, by the way) is a right.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 119):
We just want *RESPONSIBLE* people to own guns.

The absolute vast majority of firearms owners are responsible. You only hear about the irresponsible ones and the criminals.

How many people who own guns did NOT kill someone last year?
How many aircraft landed safely yesterday?
How many cars did not crash yesterday?

The rest of your post appears to be nonsensical. Sorry.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12544
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:08 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 106):
I suspect I can buy a gun for less than $100. Probably less than $50.

I'm sure

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 106):
So is the right for the uninformed to be allowed to vote. I suggest we bring back knowledge tests before we allow someone to register to vote.

Might as well tie voting to property ownership if you want to go down that road. I see the right to vote as far more imnportant than the right to own a firearm.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 113):
So, once again, you're ok with someone having to pay in order to exercise a constitutional right?

Yes, you can still own a gun but you need to be trained and registered to use one. Nobody is saying to making users licensed and trained is taking away their rights.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11815
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:16 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 106):
Many cities in the old (and not-so-old) South also put blacks in the back of the bus, made them drink from different water fountains, etc. What's your point?

That the US surprime court judges can wise up as well and get to the point where common sense wins.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 120):
The Supreme Court and The Founders disagree with you

The same supreme court that upheld segregation for about a 100 years after Amendment 13 and so, right? Was there a new amendment when they finally came to their senses?

Founding fathers? John Adams said on this subject: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws."

seems like a pretty strong gun - control statement.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 120):
The absolute vast majority of firearms owners are responsible. You only hear about the irresponsible ones and the criminals.

The absolute vast majority of people drinking alcohol is wise enough to stay away from a driver seat. There is still legislation on the matter.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 120):
How many people who own guns did NOT kill someone last year?

in terms of homicide? About the same number as the people that don't own guns. Only that there are 2 for every gun owner. So, gun owners kill twice as much. For accidents a lot worse, your kids can't accidentally shoot your wife with a stamp collection and most other hobbies don't really carry the same kind of accident risk.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 120):
Keeping and bearing arms (not just firearms, by the way) is a right.

unless you propose the government should hand out guns with welfare checks to those who can't afford one the point is pretty mood.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 107):
Unfortunately, it is not happening. According to NRA and their supporters, that violates Second Amendment rights somehow and takes away guns from every responsible gun owner in the country.

maybe Al qaeda is just so quiet in the last few years because they changed their strategy to donating money to the NRA.....why buy guns at black market prises to kill americans if there is a support organisation that promotes getting guns to shoot themselves? Heck... maybe it is even tax deductible. ..

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7883
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:27 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 122):
The absolute vast majority of people drinking alcohol is wise enough to stay away from a driver seat. There is still legislation on the matter.

There's more legislation in this country concerning firearms then there is concerning driving while drunk.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 122):
unless you propose the government should hand out guns with welfare checks to those who can't afford one the point is pretty mood.

No, the point is not moot. Seb called it a privilege...kinda like driving is a privilege. The Second Amendment is a right, a right that the Supreme Court has upheld as an individual right.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:32 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 107):
AAA buys how many Congress people a year to get pro AAA legislation passed?

Do you want to talk about the insurance industry pushing dumb traffic laws?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 119):
Spend more of our tax dollars on a privilege (fire arms ownership) and less on a right (voting)? How would the Founding Fathers feel about that?

First, the Founding Fathers would say that you're an idiot for not understanding the difference between a privilege and a right, just before pointing out that they did not add the Bill of Privileges to the Constitution.

Second, if you were lucky enough that one of the Founding Fathers present was Alexander Hamilton, he'd explain why, and this is still certainly true, the Bill of Rights is some of the absolute worst legislation this country has ever enacted.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 119):
That is what right-wingers can not get over about the rest of Americans: a huge majority of Americans actually do not care if people own guns.

And yet stupid people come howling forth whenever there's a shooting that provides the right stimuli to somewhat warped senses.

Also, would you care to tell us how many gun owners weren't shot by their toddlers this week?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 119):
I tell you, that anyone would dare trample the Second Amendment and how dare anyone take away Second Amendment rights afforded us by our Forefathers!!!

If there was a basic civics test for voting, you just failed miserably. The Second Amendment rights, and those in the rest of the Bill of Rights, were not afforded to us by our forefathers, the government or anyone else save perhaps God if you believe in that.

That fallacy has allowed the passage of tons of bad laws and justified many untenable liberal positions on issues.

The bottom line is that if you want to enact a new law, you should have to definitively show whose rights would be violated by not having said law.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 121):
Might as well tie voting to property ownership if you want to go down that road.

Modernize the notion and tie it to how much tax is paid. You want more influence, pay more into the system. Why should most of the country get to sit at the table and play with someone else's money?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 121):
I see the right to vote as far more imnportant than the right to own a firearm.

The cool thing about rights is that you don't get to decide which ones are important for anyone other than yourself.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 21428
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 7:42 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 120):
The Supreme Court and The Founders disagree with you. Keeping and bearing arms (not just firearms, by the way) is a right.

"well regulated militia" applies to individuals.... how? How is individual gun ownership rights prescribed by our Founding Fathers in the Second Amendment?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 120):
The absolute vast majority of firearms owners are responsible. You only hear about the irresponsible ones and the criminals.

How many people who own guns did NOT kill someone last year?
How many aircraft landed safely yesterday?
How many cars did not crash yesterday?

The rest of your post appears to be nonsensical. Sorry.

So, school shootings and kids shooting kids and kids shooting their parents are acceptable losses. We can just gloss over the fact that people are going to be killed. meh... just another day in America. Random people shot by random acts. Nothing to see here. Move along.

And right-wingers wonder why no one bats an eye at random acts of violence....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7883
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:05 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 122):
Founding fathers? John Adams said on this subject: "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws."

So, I've read this quotation several times and I fail to see the

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 122):
seems like a pretty strong gun - control statement.

In fact, what I read is that Adams felt that arms used in private self defense or under the orders of the various governments was just fine.

In fact, I found:

"Resistance to sudden violence, for the preservation not only of my person, my limbs, and life, but of my property, is an indisputable right of nature which I have never surrendered to the public by the compact of society, and which perhaps, I could not surrender if I would."

and:

"Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self-defense."

Along with your quotation, on this site.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 125):
"well regulated militia" applies to individuals.

Please, read through Heller. It's in the first several pages.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11815
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:09 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 123):
There's more legislation in this country concerning firearms then there is concerning driving while drunk.

obviously it requires more laws to regulate something than it takes to outlaw something else. So, you have no point at all.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 123):
No, the point is not moot.

It is. There is no difference between someone that doesn't have a gun because he doesn't have the money for an exam, and someone that doesn't have money for a gun. So, again, free guns for the poor?

And what about those unpatriotic gun manufacturers? Making a profit on people that just execute a right?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 124):
Modernize the notion and tie it to how much tax is paid.

modernize? Like that is a new idea...

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 124):
The cool thing about rights is that you don't get to decide which ones are important for anyone other than yourself.

because no right has ever been open to interpretation? Or where exactly does the 2nd amendment state that people have the right to bear ammunition? Or that they have the right to manufacturer them? With some luck even the supreme court will wise up ... just a few more decades or so. It took them just about 100 years to get apartheid was wrong. They will at some point realize that having a 9/11 every few weeks isn't what the drafters had in mind ...
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7883
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:17 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 127):
So, again, free guns for the poor?

OK, I'll bite. Absolutely. If someone is unable to exercise his right to keep and bear arms because he can not afford to do so, the government should subsidize the purchase of some minimum level of 'arms'. We do it with the made up right to healthcare, why not a right specified in The Bill of Rights?

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 127):
So, you have no point at all.

The point is that we have plenty of laws that regulate firearms, their transfer and their use. And, the vast majority of gun owners obey those laws and regulations. But, guess what? Criminals ignore laws.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11815
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:25 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 126):
"Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self-defense.

I always knew that lots of made up quotes are in circulation, but using one even the NRA got over is quite surprising.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 126):
So, I've read this quotation several times and I fail to see the

I am not surprised. He can hardly be clearer that he is afraid of abuse in mob action and anaranarchy.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 126):
Please, read through Heller. It's in the first several pages.

It's only the supreme court. They will wise up one day. Well, or the government will get to anmend or abolish the ammendment. .. wouldn't be the first.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12544
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:47 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 123):
There's more legislation in this country concerning firearms then there is concerning driving while drunk.

It's obviously ineffective, should all be scrapped and started anew.



Quoting fr8mech (Reply 123):
The Second Amendment is a right, a right that the Supreme Court has upheld as an individual right.

It can still be a right but with some sensible strings attached, like manditory training, registration and insurance.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:53 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 113):
I don't have a problem with someone having to purchase a firearm if they choose to exercise the right.

So you don't mind people having to pay for a gun, ammo and whatever else may takes their fancy in regards to accessories ..... but when it comes to obtaining a licence at a cost, you protest ????

Do you know how bloody ridiculous that sounds. Constitution or not ?

There is a cost for everything, get used to it, but unfortunately, you seem to put the value of a few dollars above those of a human life.

Simply Crazy.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 114):
The only true safety is what's between the ears.

What about the gene pool she's left behind, I think she has another 3 kids..... OMG. more dun.ces then ???

Quoting L-188 (Reply 115):
Actually not one of my single actions have a safety catch.

That may well be the case.

But why on hell would you then carry something like that, lose, in your hand bag, where there is a VERY high chance its going to rub yup against something and fire, without warning ?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 119):
I am simply talking about an exam that determines whether a person is purchasing a gun to own a piece of history or for survival or if they simply hate that their neighbor plants too many petunias because petunias scream far too much at 2AM or they shop at Wal-Mart with an unlocked pistol with their 2 year old.

Yes, Yes Yes A simple test, A common sense/practical test.

You don't need to be a MENSA student

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 123):
There's more legislation in this country concerning firearms then there is concerning driving while drunk.

Well, its been suggest then that perhaps you revisit that "legislation".... Its not working very well !

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 123):
The Second Amendment is a right, a right that the Supreme Court has upheld as an individual right.

And what about the civil responsibility that comes with that "right". Such as living in a civilised society ?
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18242
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:56 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 113):
So, once again, you're ok with someone having to pay in order to exercise a constitutional right?

Absolutely, because they already have to, don't they?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12544
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:03 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 124):
Do you want to talk about the insurance industry pushing dumb traffic laws?

Except the death rates for motorvehicle accidents have been falling for a very long time, despite vehicle ownership increasing, it would appear that those so called dumb traffic laws and vehicle safety regulations do in fact work.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 132):

Absolutely, because they already have to, don't they?

He doesn't appear to realise buying a gun is not free.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:17 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 127):
modernize? Like that is a new idea...

Property taxes were comparatively much more important at the time the Constitution was written. There was no federal income tax until the Civil War.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 127):
because no right has ever been open to interpretation?

That's why the Bill of Rights is dumb: it's open to interpretation. This is a really simple matter. Unless you can demonstrate exactly who is having their rights violated by someone doing or not doing something, you can't stop them from doing it.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 127):
They will at some point realize that having a 9/11 every few weeks isn't what the drafters had in mind ...

We've had one 9/11 ever.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 131):
And what about the civil responsibility that comes with that "right".

You mean the responsibility to not shoot people, their property, or threaten them with arms? Last time I checked there were already laws against all of those things.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7883
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:52 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 129):
He can hardly be clearer that he is afraid of abuse in mob action and anaranarchy.

True. But, what about the line in the middle:

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 122):
except in private self-defense,

It seems to me, that Adams is saying that use of arms in self-defense along with use of arms under governmental authority is fine and dandy.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 129):
I always knew that lots of made up quotes are in circulation, but using one even the NRA got over is quite surprising

Can you cite a reputable source that says it's a bogus quotation? I've looked and can't find one.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 130):
It can still be a right but with some sensible strings attached, like manditory training, registration and insurance.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 131):
but when it comes to obtaining a licence at a cost, you protest ????

Let me put it to you this way: if a person chooses to exercise their Second Amendment Right, they go buy a gun, the cost of which is set by the free market.

With me so far?

But, if the government imposes requirements that there be training, insurance, pre-purchase testing, etc. the government is, in essence imposing a TAX on the exercise of that right.

Do you get it now? The government is not free to tax our rights. I can think of no other constitutional right that is taxed. In fact, the government goes out of its way NOT to tax our rights. Look at religion in The First Amendment. Or, did you know, that the government does not impose a permit fee on First Amendment demonstration on The National Mall? Why? Because that would be laying a tax on a constitutional right.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3285
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:54 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 106):
If they plan on storing the gun in the car when they will not or can not carry the gun on their person for various reason, then a lockbox is desirable.

The specifics of a lockbox should not be stated in laws. I think maybe a good way to do things would be to take a leaf from one of my favourite pieces of british law (i'm going to get hounded here) but the "health and safety at work act" stating that reasonably foreseeable risks should be dealth with by reasonably practicable measures based on cost, time, trouble to implement and possibility and do not need to grossly outweigh the risks. If you are found wanting in this area you are liable and if not then you are not.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 91):
Once again, if someone chooses to exercise their Second Amendment Rights

What if people without fireamrs want to exercise the "well regulated" part

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 113):
So, once again, you're ok with someone having to pay in order to exercise a constitutional right?

Nah, it can be paid for by the government, just like all the regulation that goes with all the other rights, you didn't think judges were sat at trials because it was a hobby did you?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 113):
At some point, the burden becomes onerous.

Then one would surely weigh up the burden of filling in some forms and having a test vs being dead or seriously injured.

Quoting bjcc (Reply 92):
The argument that guns don't kill is juvenile and stupid, guns + people kill, so separate them,

Most sensible comment so far in my eyes.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 120):
The Supreme Court and The Founders disagree with you. Keeping and bearing arms (not just firearms, by the way) is a right.

So is regulating it.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 120):
The absolute vast majority of firearms owners are responsible. You only hear about the irresponsible ones and the criminals.

Nearly every single law there is obeyed by 99% of people for their entire lives, why should any gun laws be different?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 120):
How many aircraft landed safely yesterday?

Are you suggesting that we get rid of laws and regulations in the aircraft industry or we apply similar to firearms?

Fred
Image
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7883
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:01 am

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 136):
Nearly every single law there is obeyed by 99% of people for their entire lives, why should any gun laws be different?

Yes, correct. Your point being? We need more laws?

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 136):
Are you suggesting that we get rid of laws and regulations in the aircraft industry or we apply similar to firearms?

Not at all. I'm suggesting that the laws and regulations we have concerning firearms are adequate. In some cases they need to be enforced.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 136):
What if people without fireamrs want to exercise the "well regulated" part

Please elaborate. I don't understand.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 136):
The specifics of a lockbox should not be stated in laws.

I agree, that's why I said a lockbox is desirable, not required.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 136):
Then one would surely weigh up the burden of filling in some forms and having a test vs being dead or seriously injured.

Filling out forms is one thing...paying for the right to be allowed to keep and bear a (fire)arm is another.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12261
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:38 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 103):
All of the above are legal to own within the US. So now, what's your point?

-DiamondFlyer

Is it an arm if you can't get the ammo ? You'd need to go through tons of red tape and pay a tax on each rocket/missile/grenade/shell, and I'm pretty sure after a couple buys the ATF wouldn't let you get more.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12544
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 12:09 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 135):
Let me put it to you this way: if a person chooses to exercise their Second Amendment Right, they go buy a gun, the cost of which is set by the free market.

Let me put it this way they first participate in a firearms safety course once completed and passed they can then exercise their second amendment right to go buy a gun.

The cost of the course could be set in a tender process by the free market.

You still get to have your guns but you're properly trained in safety and operation plus have a license to use it. I'm not suggesting taking away your guns I'm just suggesting that owners need to show that they are capable of using them, if you're not capable tough, you shouldn't own a weapon.
 
offloaded
Posts: 961
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:56 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:07 pm

My following comment is not meant to be provocative in any way, shape, or form, but it is a genuine curiosity that I have. I've always wondered how brave gun owners really are? At what point would they decide they need to take matters into their own hands, if for example, tomorrow, the US government decided that in the 220 years since the 2nd Amendment, things have changed and that say nothing bigger than a hand gun was going to be allowed, or indeed no guns at all, exactly who would stand up and say "no way"? If all your neighbours said ok, handed theirs in, would you be the one to have your house surrounded by ATF/SWAT etc until you did the same?
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3216
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 138):
Is it an arm if you can't get the ammo ? You'd need to go through tons of red tape and pay a tax on each rocket/missile/grenade/shell, and I'm pretty sure after a couple buys the ATF wouldn't let you get more.

And once again, you open your mouth based on assumptions. There is no limit on number of NFA items a person owns (other than how much money they want to spend).

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 10202
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:56 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 140):
if for example, tomorrow, the US government decided that in the 220 years since the 2nd Amendment, things have changed and that say nothing bigger than a hand gun was going to be allowed, or indeed no guns at all, exactly who would stand up and say "no way"?

Two things:

1) I think you would have many millions of people who would refuse to comply. And it would be ironic if the government, who has always claimed that it would be impossible to round up millions of illegal aliens, started to send in SWAT teams to round up all the guns owned by otherwise law-abiding and respectable people.

2) If the government did make such a decision, it would prove their incompetence beyond a shadow of doubt, since of all gun-related crimes, less than 2 percent involved long guns.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 21428
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:22 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 142):
of all gun-related crimes, less than 2 percent involved long guns.

Then, there is no need for the individual American to own semi automatic long guns, is there?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 142):
I think you would have many millions of people who would refuse to comply.

"Millions"? Where do you get those figures?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 126):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 125):
"well regulated militia" applies to individuals.

Please, read through Heller. It's in the first several pages.

I am not talking about activist judges legislating from the bench in the 21st century. I am talking about the original Constitution. What did the Founding Fathers and drafters of the Constitution say about individual gun ownership and the definition of "well regulated militia" and how all that works together?

I am asking you to look it up on your own and giving you clues because, every time any of us "liberals" post any link from anywhere about any topic, we are the bad guys because we did not use the right site. I could very easily direct you to Thom Hartman and books he has written on the subject.

Besides, Heller was a challenge to local law using the federal Constitution as basis for voiding it.

[Edited 2015-01-02 09:40:58]
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:37 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 119):
Spend more of our tax dollars on a privilege (fire arms ownership) and less on a right (voting)? How would the Founding Fathers feel about that?

That's another topic, and comes with its own pitfalls. But there are always higher priorities in everything we discuss.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 120):
Yes, it is. But, that only covers the cost aspect of the problem. What about where the bar is set? Yes, you'll have psychiatrists and psychologists determine what set of personality traits may or may not be cause for concern, but it will be politicians that set the final approval parameters. I'm not comfortable with that.

I'm not sure personality traits come into it. We're not trying to find out whether the gun owner is aggressive, angry etc. It's more about identifying people who have diagnosable mental illnesses. Doctors and courts make similar diagnoses every day when deciding if people should be institutionalized or be placed under conservatorship. Given a suitable avenue for appeals I don't see any great threat to most gun owners by doing this.

If that still worries you, would you at least agree that background checks should have been strong enough to exclude people like James Holmes from owning a gun, given what we now know of his mental health history? We don't even currently have a good system of identifying people who have already been identified as mentally ill, never mind those who are off the radar.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 120):
Further, say someone is considered ineligible to own a firearm because he is unable to pass this firearms examination; are you comfortable with this person being allowed to do other things? Drive a school bus? Be a doctor? A CPA? A teacher?

Not really bothered about CPAs, but if you're asking whether somebody with a history of schizophrenia should be allowed to work in a school, I'd probably say no.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 10202
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 143):

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 142):
of all gun-related crimes, less than 2 percent involved long guns.

Then, there is no need for the individual American to own semi automatic long guns, is there?

Most long guns are not used in crimes.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 143):
"Millions"? Where do you get those figures?

What part of "I think" do you not understand.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 143):
What did the Founding Fathers and drafters of the Constitution say about individual gun ownership and the definition of "well regulated militia" and how all that works together?

The original intent and purpose of the Second Amendment was to preserve and guarantee, not grant, the pre-existing right of individuals to keep and bear arms. Although the amendment emphasizes the need for a militia, membership in any militia, let alone a well-regulated one, was not intended to serve as a prerequisite for exercising the right to keep arms.

The Second Amendment preserves and guarantees an individual right for a collective purpose. That does not transform the right into a "collective right." The militia clause was a declaration of purpose, and preserving the people's right to keep and bear arms was the method the framers chose to, in-part, ensure the continuation of a well-regulated militia.

The purpose of the Militia which would be completely independent of the orders from the Federal Government and would be formed at a local level, is made clear by James Madison in Federalist #46. It's primary purpose is to be able to defend the citizenry against a government which has become oppressive, and would in fact be used to fight against Federal forces, should they be used to subjugate the people.

Quote:
Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15573
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:44 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
This woman caused her own death. Not the NRA. Not her child. Not the person that sold her the gun. Not the gun manufacturer or the ammunition manufacturer. Not Wal-Mart, nor the purse manufacturer. She did it to herself.

She failed to control access to her firearm. That is the root cause of her death.

  

No disrespect to the deceased, but if your firearm is within arm's reach of a toddler, you're carrying it irresponsibly. Firearms themselves are not inherently unsafe. It's all about the training and responsible handling of firearms, which clearly wasn't fully exercised in this instance.

Carrying a firearm with a round chambered and the safety off is irresponsible gun safety protocol. Having it in that condition within arm's reach of a toddler is just so monumentally stupid that it boggles the mind. And yet that's precisely what she did. So for those who are in desperate need of someone to blame, it is ultimately her fault this occurred. Despite what her grieving family or the anti-gun "it's the gun's fault!" crowd might think.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
57AZ
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:55 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 104):
Didn't many cities in the old west require people to leave their guns at the gates?

Yes, though not necessarily at the "gates". You had to check them at a designated place and could only collect them when leaving town. Incidentally, that was one of the events that led to the shootout at the OK Corral. The Clantons refused to check their guns and the Earps went out to enforce the ordinance.



Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 114):
Mechanical safeties are a poor thing to count on. The only true safety is what's between the ears

Indeed, mechanical safety devices can and do occasionally fail. Glocks and other striker fire pistols do have a mechanical trigger safety BTW. Ever seen a semiautomatic rifle go full auto due to a slamfire? Poor maintenance can render the safety useless, such as in a slamfire instance.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:43 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 135):
Do you get it now?

I appreciate the detailed explanation of your responses fr8mech,throughout this thread and I really am trying to get my head around all your "constitutional" interpretations, however, there seems to always be "something" getting in the way of sensible reform for everyones sake.

America is facing needless death after death, all because nobody wants to reform or amend the various paragraphs contained in the constitution, with sensible things so as to make it safer for everyone in American society.

Surely thats a good thing ?

Are you and your fellow Americans really happy with the status quo ?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 146):
It's all about the training and responsible handling of firearms, which clearly wasn't fully exercised in this instance.

But this is the problem. Apparently there is NO mandatory training or licensing for people wanting to possess a gun.

You can go buy one freely, but its against the constitution to ask people to sit a test and to pay for sitting the test. Maybe it should be a free test then, paid for by the Government... e.g. tax payers of the US.

But I dare say, someone will find a clause in the constitution that says otherwise !

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 146):
. Having it in that condition within arm's reach of a toddler is just so monumentally stupid that it boggles the mind.

I agree, but some don't like the word "stupid" or it being used in this context.

So how else would you otherwise describe her actions then, other than being extremely "stupid" .... I not sure ?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 14):
I wouldn't go so far as calling her "stupid", considering we know nothing at all about her outside this incident.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 10202
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: Toddler Shoots, Kills Mom At Hayden Wal-Mart

Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:56 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 148):
America is facing needless death after death, all because nobody wants to reform or amend the various paragraphs contained in the constitution, with sensible things so as to make it safer for everyone in American society.

Surely thats a good thing ?

The disagreement is not that we don't recognize that there is a problem, but on the solution. You want to ban guns (or certain types of guns, or restrict access to them), whereas I would look for another solution - such as automatic life in prison with no possibility of parole for any crime committed with a gun, even if you never fired.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: alberchico, DLFREEBIRD, sonicruiser and 38 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos